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Ayat tathir

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al-kulayni

Ayat tathir
« on: November 25, 2014, 05:45:46 PM »
Assalamu Aleykum

What can you say to someone who give this argument about ayat tathir

And stay in your houses [buyutikun], and do not Tabarruj yourselves like the Tabarruj of the times of ignorance, and perform the Salah, and give Zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove the Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family [bayt], and to purify you with a thorough purification

They say there is a difference between the terms because this verse talk about one house (Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Al Hasan and Al Husain radhiallahu anhum) and not the house of the prophet-s wives.

What can we answer to this ?

Husayn

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2014, 08:43:04 PM »
Wa Alaikum Assalam,

Firstly, let me assure you that most intelligent Shiites do not buy this explanation (deep-down). They will use it in arguments, sure, but really they know it is very weak and nonsensical.

I made a post about it on the old forum:

http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=21068

Quote
----------------
Verse 33:33

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّـهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّـهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O People of the Household (Ahl al-Bayt), and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.
----------------

In this verse, the grammar changes from feminine to masculine -

Feminine - Qurna (stay), Buyutikuna (Your Houses), Tabarrajna (bedizenment) e.t.c.

Masculine - Ahl al-Bayt (People of the Household).

Some use this as an argument to say that the verse, after "Rasuluhu (His messenger)", is no longer referring to the wives of the Prophet (saw), because it has changed from feminine to masculine.

I say, OK then, let's look at verse 11:73:

----------------
قَالُوا أَتَعْجَبِينَ مِنْ أَمْرِ اللَّـهِ ۖ رَحْمَتُ اللَّـهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ عَلَيْكُمْ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ ۚ إِنَّهُ حَمِيدٌ مَّجِيدٌ

They said: Wonderest thou at the commandment of Allah? The mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, O people of the house (Ahl al-Bayt)! Lo! He is Owner of Praise, Owner of Glory!
----------------

In this verse, once again, the grammar changed from feminine to masculine -

Feminine - Ata'jabina (Wonderest thou?)

Masculine - Ahl al-Bayt (People of the Household)

In this verse, the angel is addressing the wife of Ibrahim (as), in the feminine (Ata'jabina), but then switches to masculine, (Ahl al-Bayt).

If we apply the logic of 33:33 - this then means that the angel stops addressing Ibrahim (as)'s wife after "Amr il-Laah (commandment of Allah).

I say - such an idea is completely ridiculous, and you have to be extremely biased or foolish to accept such logic.

Even as a 12 year old I didn't buy this argument.

Did Allah (SWT) send down the Qur'an to confuse people? Why add a praise of 'Ali/Fatima/Hassan/Hussain to the end of a verse addressing the Prophet's wives? Why not just make a whole seperate verse? It is a spurious argument.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Husayn

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2014, 09:00:27 PM »
Hani wrote up the following article to refute this also:

http://twelvershia.net/2013/05/03/verse-of-purification-a-separate-verse-or-a-part-of-a-verse/

It is much more indepth than my explanation.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2014, 09:52:47 PM »
Assalamu Aleykum

What can you say to someone who give this argument about ayat tathir

And stay in your houses [buyutikun], and do not Tabarruj yourselves like the Tabarruj of the times of ignorance, and perform the Salah, and give Zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove the Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family [bayt], and to purify you with a thorough purification

They say there is a difference between the terms because this verse talk about one house (Prophet, Ali, Fatima, Al Hasan and Al Husain radhiallahu anhum) and not the house of the prophet-s wives.

What can we answer to this ?


This argument of theirs make no sense, is there a rule in Arabic grammar that says that the household needs to be plural in case the man owns more than one house?


Don't all Arabs agree that Ahlul-Bayt is composed from the houses of `Abbas and Harith and Ja`far and `Ali...?


That argument is incorrect linguistically.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

al-kulayni

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 12:15:19 AM »
Assalamu Aleykum

Barak Allah fik Husayn for your answer.

Hani, that's why i asked the question i don't know arabic grammar. I have found this enaswer what do you think of it ? It's from http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/wives-as-ahlul-bayt/

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Quote
    & Another of their argument is that:

    Also. If you notice the beginning of the verse starts of by saying بُيُوتِكُنَّ The plural feminine form. Because the wives all had their own houses right? So that is why The Qur’aan is addressing all the wives for them not to leave their houses.

    But look at the second part of the verse. It says الْبَيْتِ this is singular form, meaning only 1 house is “thoroughly purified”, if it was the other wives the wording would be Ahlul Bayoot, but it is not.

First let me quote the verse:

وَقَرْنَ فِى بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلاَ تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَـهِلِيَّةِ الاٍّولَى وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَوةَ وَءَاتِينَ الزَّكَـوةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُـمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيــراً

And stay in your houses, and do not Tabarruj yourselves like the Tabarruj of the times of ignorance, and perform the Salah, and give Zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove the Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.

Quote
    He mean first Allah said “bayoot-koon” (plural) & then “ahl-bayt” (singular)

    Means to include house of wives it should be “ahle-bayoot” instead of “ahl-bayt”! So only one house is thoroughly purified i.e. house of imam ali!

This statement made me laugh. :P

First let me tell you “ahl” is called ISME-JAMA in arabic grammar means “word used for both plural & singular” or we can say “word without restriction in quantity form”.

Allah said “bayoot-koon” in the beginning because Allah wants all wives of S.A.W. (pbuh) to stay in their own houses (remember bayoot is used for houses not for members & to include members “ahl” is used), then Allah said “ahl-bayt” in the last because Allah wants to purify members of the house not one house itself.

If we analyse shia argument, we find: He said bayoot is plural & bayt is singular (without including “ahl” with “bayt”):

This mean, member of house (if we are considering it singular, as shia said), so this means Allah want to purify only one member not one house, because Allah said “ahl-bayt” not only “bayt”. As you can see how shia can skip word “ahl” from quranic verse only to support his evil & useless arguments. They will always try hard to exclude wives from this verse but always they fail when we compare the quranic verses with other verses.

May be after knowing this grammetic issues the fighting will took place between shia sects i.e. who will be the purified one from the holy four! & then more shia sects will form on this issue. :P

As we can see this shia argument goes against there own belief, to include more than one member “ahl-bayt” should be considered as plural not singular. & remember “ahl” is plural here because it includes more than one member, so automatically “ahl-bayt” will become plural.

Some other points: The terms ‘Ahlul Bayt’ (أَهْلَ الْبَيْت) and ‘Ahl-i-Bayt’ (أَهْلِ بَيْت) are both consruct states (also known as ‘اضافه’, i.e. genitive) according to basic Arabic grammar rules. The only difference between these two terms is ‘Al’ (ال) that comes with ‘bayt’ ‘بَيْت’ in the first phrase. ‘Al’ (ال) is a definite article translating to ‘the’ in English. So while ‘bayt’ (بَيْت) would mean ‘a house’, ‘alBayt’ (الْبَيْت) would mean ‘the house’. Given this information, basic Arabic rules dictate the meaning of the phrase ‘Ahlul Bayt’ (أَهْلَ الْبَيْت) as “people of the house”, while the phrase ‘Ahl-i-Bayt’ (أَهْلِ بَيْت) would mean ‘people of a house’.

In the Arabic language, this phrase, as apparent from its meaning, is used commonly to represent those who live in one’s house, i.e. people of the house. Now if we look at all the three verses that have been discussed so far (Hud 11:73, Al-Qasas 28:12 and Al-Ahzab 33:33) the context clearly shows that this phrase has been used for people who lived in the houses of each of the subjects under discussion. In my previous response, I quoted these verses in order to clarify the meaning of this phrase using the Quran, irrespective of why it was used for the ladies. As you shall see, this phrase in the other two verses really only means people living in the houses:

In Hud 11:73, the phrase “people of the house” (i.e. a house under discussion) is used for Abraham’s wife who lived in the house of Abraham, thus his ‘people of the house’.

In Al-Qasas 28:12, the phrase “people of a house” (i.e. people in some house) is used as an expression to indicate a lady who can nourish prophet Moses (pbuh).

As a result, when one looks at 33rd verse of Al-Ahzab, one sees that the phrase ‘people of the house’ is used in the context where the entire discussion is directed at prophet Muhammad (pbuh)’s wives. In this context when this phrase appears, there is no doubt that it refers to the ‘people of the house’ of prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Whether the address in other verses to prophet Abraham (pbuh)’s wife or prophet Moses (pbuh)’s mother is made as wives or as mothers of prophets is not really relevant since the entire discussion is around understanding the meaning of the phrase ‘Ahlul Bayt’ (أَهْلَ الْبَيْت), which in any case refers to the ladies living in a house.

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Is it a good refutation ?

Hani

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 12:40:57 PM »
There is no "Ahlul-Buyout", there is only "Ahlul-Bayt".


Household covers all relatives of a man regardless of the number of houses or who owns them.


So the above is correct.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

al-kulayni

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 01:52:05 PM »
Barak Allahu fik bro

sword_of_sunnah

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 06:43:19 PM »

al-kulayni

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 11:01:35 PM »
Barak Allahu fik brother sword of sunna

Hani

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2014, 02:53:02 PM »
Tafseer al-Tabari:


حدثنـا أبو حميد الـحمصي أحمد بن الـمغيرة، قال: ثنا يحيى بن سعيد، قال: ثنا حفص بن سلـيـمان، عن مـحمد بن سوقة، عن وبرة بن عبد الرحمن، عن ابن عمر، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: " إنَّ اللَّهَ لَـيَدْفَعُ بِـالْـمُؤْمِنِ الصَّالِـحِ عَنْ مائَةٍ أَهْلِ بَـيْتٍ مِنْ جِيرَانهِ الْبَلاَءَ " ثم قرأ ابن عمر:  وَلَوْلاَ دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُمْ بِبَعْضٍ لَفَسَدَتِ الأرْضُ


[...From ibn `Umar, he said: Rasul-Allah (saw) said: "Through the presence of a righteous believer, Allah shall not cause misery to befall a hundred Ahlul-Bayt from his neighbors." Then ibn `Umar recited: ...]
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

al-kulayni

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 03:40:45 PM »
Barak Allahu fik akhi.

What can you say about this hadith from sunan Thirmidhi which use the term Buyut to talk about families

روى بسنده عن المطلب ابن ابي وداعة قال جاء العباس الى رسول اللّه صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله‌وسلم فكأنه سمع شيئا فقام النبي صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله على المنبر فقال من أنا؟ فقالوا أنت رسول اللّه ، قال أنا محمد بن عبد اللّه بن عبد المطلب ، ان اللّه خلق الخلق فجعلني من خيرهم فرقة ، ثم جعلهم فرقتين فجعلني في خيرهم فرقة ، ثم جعلهم قبائل فجعلني في خيرهم قبيلة ثم جعلهم بيوتا فجعلني في خيرهم بيتاً ، وخيرهم نسباً.

source : http://www.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=695&BookID=26&PID=3541&SubjectID=30595
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 03:50:42 PM by al-kulayni »

Hani

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 05:00:57 PM »
"Buyout" is in plural because they are many different families, it simply means "houses" but we're talking about the term "Ahlul-Bayt", not the term "Ahl" or "Bayt" on their own.


Muhammad (saw) and his folks are one family thus they are all Ahlu-Baytin.


If it were to say "Ahlu-Buyoutin" this signifies many families.
إِنَّا كُنَّا أَهْلَ بُيُوتٍ، وَكُنَّا إِنَّمَا نَأْتِي رَسُولَ اللَّهِ


If it were to say as above "A hundred Ahlu-Baytin" this also signifies many families.
مائَةٍ أَهْلِ بَـيْتٍ مِنْ جِيرَانهِ


If it were to say "Ahlu-Abyaatin" this also signifies several households, such as here:
يَا مَالِك إِنَّهُ قَدِمَ عَلَيْنَا مِنْ قَوْمِكَ أَهْلُ أَبْيَاتٍ OR فَقَتَلْتُ بِيَدِي تِلْكَ اللَّيْلَةَ سَبْعَةَ أَهْلِ أَبْيَاتٍ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ



And in Sahih al-Bukhari we read that abu Musa said:


قَدِمْتُ أَنَا وَأَخِي مِنْ الْيَمَنِ فَمَكُثْنَا حِينًا مَا نُرَى إِلَّا أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ مَسْعُودٍ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِ النَّبِيِّ  لِمَا نَرَى مِنْ دُخُولِهِ وَدُخُولِ أُمِّهِ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ


[I came with my brother from Yaman and we resided for a while thinking that `Abdullah bin Mas`oud is a man from the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (saw) because we saw him and his mother entering on the Prophet (saw) all the time.]


And in Mustadrak al-Hakim, from `Abdullah that the Prophet (saw) told a man:


إِنَّ آلَ مُحَمَّدٍ كَذَا وَكَذَا أَهْلَ بَيْتٍ وَأَظُنُّهُ قَالَ تِسْعَةَ أَبْيَاتٍ مَا فِيهِمْ صَاعٌ مِنْ طَعَامٍ


[The Aal(Family) of Muhammad are this and this Ahlu-Baytin, -I think he mentioned nine Abyaat- none of them contain a small quantity of food.]


Meaning the Ahlul-Bayt(household) of the Prophet (saw) were nine Abyaat(houses) that were poor.


Do you understand this?


His household is ONE household, but they are composed of nine houses for his wives/family.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

al-kulayni

Re: Ayat tathir
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2014, 08:45:41 PM »
Yes, very clear ! Barak Allahu fik for your help.

 

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