Ayatullas are near infallible

[Hani]

Salam,


I was just observing the Ghuluw of the Rawafid when it comes to their scholars of emulation (Maraji`) where they make them near infallible.


Al-Khu'i says in "Minhaj-ul-Saliheen" under the section of "Taqleed", page 9, issue #29, when talking about how to establish the `Adalah(justice) of the scholars of emulation (Maraji`), he says:



العدالة المعتبرة في مرجع التقليد عبارة عن الاستقامة في جادة الشريعة المقدسة،و عدم الانحراف عنها يمينا و شمالا، بأن لا يرتكب معصية بترك واجب،أو فعل حرام، من دون عذر شرعي،و لا فرق في المعاصي من هذه الجهة،بين الصغيرة،و الكبيرة


[The justice(`Adalah) that is acceptable for a reference of emulation(Marji`) is his uprightness on the divine religious law, such that he never deviates from it in any way, thus not committing an act of disobedience by abandoning obligatory duties or doing a forbidden action, without a valid religious excuse, and there is no difference here between the major and minor acts of disobedience]


This is as near as you can get to infallibility which they (Shia scholars) have created for themselves, Ahlul-Sunnah don't even establish this for the Sahabah (ra), we say they can commit mistakes as well as falling into major and minor sins.

[Suleiman]

Just like the pope.

[Optimus Prime]

They're infallible from a Shaintanic perspective - no doubt.

[_twelver]

سلام عليكم
When you look at this quote through a biased lens where you assume that we are trying to elevate the status of the Maraji' then it's understandable how you came to such a conclusion however, the adalah of a Marja' is one of the conditions of his legitimacy, i.e if it is proven that he is not just then he loses his position. This means rather than the scholar not making any errors whatsoever as you are trying to put forward, the scholar should strive not to sin in order to maintain his justice. Also I was not aware that his was of the conditions of adalah before, I've seen other scholars say that it just means he has to be a Twelver Shia inshallah ill try to find relevant quotes from others.

[Hadrami]

......This means rather than the scholar not making any errors whatsoever as you are trying to put forward, the scholar should strive not to sin in order to maintain his justice.....

That is why shia believe we should always have infallible imam in the first place and yet here you are trying to defend the thing that shiism say is wrong about Sunni

[Rationalist]

سلام عليكم
When you look at this quote through a biased lens where you assume that we are trying to elevate the status of the Maraji' then it's understandable how you came to such a conclusion however, the adalah of a Marja' is one of the conditions of his legitimacy, i.e if it is proven that he is not just then he loses his position. This means rather than the scholar not making any errors whatsoever as you are trying to put forward, the scholar should strive not to sin in order to maintain his justice. Also I was not aware that his was of the conditions of adalah before, I've seen other scholars say that it just means he has to be a Twelver Shia inshallah ill try to find relevant quotes from others.

Don't the 12er Shia believe that if a 12er sins he  or she is still in the fold of being a momin ?

[_twelver]

Don't the 12er Shia believe that if a 12er sins he  or she is still in the fold of being a momin ?

How is this relevant to the 'adalah of a marja'?

That is why shia believe we should always have infallible imam in the first place and yet here you are trying to defend the thing that shiism say is wrong about Sunni

Again, I don't see the relevance between this comment and the 'adalah of a marja'

inshallah ill try to find relevant quotes from others.

Taken from page 8 of Sayed Sadiq Shirazi's English risalah
"8. Just. A ‘ Just ’ individual is one who adheres to and acts upon the
obligatory duties and refrains from the prohibited acts, such that
if his neighbours, or his colleagues were asked about him, they
would report of his good nature, commitment, and piety."
This is found under the heading 'Criteria of a Mujtahid' which reinforces my earlier point that this isn't praise but an expection the scholar should live up to.

[Hadrami]

That is why shia believe we should always have infallible imam in the first place and yet here you are trying to defend the thing that shiism say is wrong about Sunni

Again, I don't see the relevance between this comment and the 'adalah of a marja'

You don't get it do you? Why should you defend the concept of 'adalah of a marja'? That concept is irrelevant if only shia is consistent with their core belief. What shia should do is to explain why when shiism is all about the concept of "we should not follow fallible people", but then it contradict that belief by "following fallibles" for almost 1200 years?

[_twelver]

If you want to discuss 'isma of Imams [as] then make a separate thread, it has nothing to do with the OP

[Hadrami]

If you want to discuss 'isma of Imams [as] then make a separate thread, it has nothing to do with the OP

New thread created as requested. I'm not asking why imam should be infallible. Explain here - http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/if-shiaism-is-about-%27follow-infallibles%27-why-shia-%27follow-fallibles%27/msg5248/#new

[Hani]

سلام عليكم
When you look at this quote through a biased lens where you assume that we are trying to elevate the status of the Maraji' then it's understandable how you came to such a conclusion however, the adalah of a Marja' is one of the conditions of his legitimacy, i.e if it is proven that he is not just then he loses his position. This means rather than the scholar not making any errors whatsoever as you are trying to put forward, the scholar should strive not to sin in order to maintain his justice. Also I was not aware that his was of the conditions of adalah before, I've seen other scholars say that it just means he has to be a Twelver Shia inshallah ill try to find relevant quotes from others.

That's not my point actually, my point is to show how moderate Ahlul-Sunnah are when it comes to the Companions of Rasul-Allah (saw), they never claim infallibility for them nor do they claim for them even what al-Khu'i claimed above for the Maraji` who are people living among us today. Rather we say, they sin and they fall into major and minor acts of disobedience, but due to their service and sacrifice for Rasul-Allah (saw) and Islam we hope that Allah will forgive them and extinguish whatever sins they commit in the sea of good deeds they amassed.

That's my point.

[Rationalist]

How is this relevant to the 'adalah of a marja'?

The reason is the 12er Shia sect doesn't require a 12er to be just in order to be a momin. So where are these ahadith which state that Ayatollah are required to remain sinless?

[MuslimK]

Shia Ayatollah: Ali Khamenei, the wali al-faqih, has attained infallibility

[Muhammad Habib]

Actually all shias are confused when it comes to the application of OolilAmr to their leaders..