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Contradictions of the Imams

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MuslimAnswers

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2017, 01:54:39 PM »
If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."

There is also another thing, which is that for a Messenger (AS), one can see that the ruling may have actually changed and the Messenger is informing his followers of the new ruling, but the major claim of the opponent is that the "Imam" is preserving the completed set of rulings*...unless the Shia is claiming outright Prophethood/Messengership for their Imams, then the discussion changes altogether.


* A lot of the vitriol against us Sunnis is exactly this, that we through criminal negligence or outright fabrication don't know or don't care to apply the proper rulings.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 01:58:00 PM by MuslimAnswers »

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2017, 07:02:18 PM »
Back to topic please.

Fair enough. Though, this means that Ja'afar Al-Sadiq actively taught people to break their fast twelve minutes before the time that was affirmed by Allah (acc. to the second view).

Is this not problematic for you?

No... because we will be rewarded for obeying our Imam (a.s). Those who obeyed Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s) and opened their fast twelve minutes before will be rewarded for their obedience and those who disobeyed the Imam (a.s) would be punished.

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2017, 07:09:11 PM »
SubhanAllah!  You do not argue with your Aimmah (ra) even when they provide contradicting opinions but you cannot cease to mock authentic narrations of the Prophet (saw) just because they do not add up to your line of reasoning or were narrated by those you do not like.

I would not argue with my Aimmah (a.s) but would definitely ask/question them (a.s) in order to gain knowledge as to giving different answers (and contradicting opinions) for the same question.

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2017, 07:13:15 PM »
If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."

We can agree to disagree.

I on the other hand would ask the reason for giving contradictory rulings and after being satisfied with the answer would accept his prophethood.

Hadrami

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2017, 09:43:57 PM »
We can agree to disagree.

I on the other hand would ask the reason for giving contradictory rulings and after being satisfied with the answer would accept his prophethood.

If you ask for a reason, imam would say he didnt want people to believe in him or didnt want people to be guided due to their safety. A clever shia would then ask, if you dont want people to believe & be guided WTH are you doing here and call yourself a guide then? 😁

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

Hani

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2017, 10:07:40 PM »
I guess the Imam above means that if he was consistent, the Shia would appear as truthful and would attract attention lol

So he left them divided in misguidance so no one would take them seriously ... which nobody does to this day.

Is this the convincing answer you were looking for brother Ijtaba? The man seems like a complete fraud to me (or his Shia are the frauds)
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2017, 10:10:46 PM »
No... because we will be rewarded for obeying our Imam (a.s). Those who obeyed Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s) and opened their fast twelve minutes before will be rewarded for their obedience and those who disobeyed the Imam (a.s) would be punished.

Well if they're rewarded for practicing incorrect laws because their intentions were to obey the divine leader. Then Sunnies are rewarded also for their intentions of following the Messenger (saw) even if their rulings are all incorrect.

No point in the guidance of the Imams or Shiasm then.

{You are only a warner and for every people there is a guide} [Qur'an]

A useless guide?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2017, 07:53:08 AM »
If you ask for a reason, imam would say he didnt want people to believe in him or didnt want people to be guided due to their safety. A clever shia would then ask, if you dont want people to believe & be guided WTH are you doing here and call yourself a guide then? 😁

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

@ijtaba, you said you will ask for a reason, now theres your imam's reason for giving conflicting rulings. Shouldnt shia blame the misguiding imam for not wanting people to believe and be guided before blaming sahaba or everyone else?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 07:54:19 AM by Hadrami »

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2017, 10:18:17 AM »
If you ask for a reason, imam would say he didnt want people to believe in him or didnt want people to be guided due to their safety. A clever shia would then ask, if you dont want people to believe & be guided WTH are you doing here and call yourself a guide then? 😁

[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

I am satisfied with the reason given by my Imam (a.s)

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2017, 10:20:32 AM »
I guess the Imam above means that if he was consistent, the Shia would appear as truthful and would attract attention lol

So he left them divided in misguidance so no one would take them seriously ... which nobody does to this day.

Is this the convincing answer you were looking for brother Ijtaba? The man seems like a complete fraud to me (or his Shia are the frauds)

I am convinced by the answer given by my Imam (a.s)

Our duty is only to obey & follow our Aimmah (a.s)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 10:21:33 AM by Ijtaba »

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2017, 10:30:23 AM »
@ijtaba, you said you will ask for a reason, now theres your imam's reason for giving conflicting rulings. Shouldnt shia blame the misguiding imam for not wanting people to believe and be guided before blaming sahaba or everyone else?

We believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT).

Believers would believe even if they be born and/or live in Kafir's house (e.g. Momin Ale-Firawn and Wife of Firawn) whereas;

Disbelievers would disbelieve even if they be born and/or live in Nabi's (a.s) house (e.g. Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving son and Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving wife)

fgss

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2017, 04:33:02 PM »
We believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT).

Believers would believe even if they be born and/or live in Kafir's house (e.g. Momin Ale-Firawn and Wife of Firawn) whereas;

Disbelievers would disbelieve even if they be born and/or live in Nabi's (a.s) house (e.g. Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving son and Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving wife)

Did your divine imams announce to the public that they are divinely appointed imams so that public may know who is the current living imam and therefore follow him? Yes/No?
 
If yes give evidence. If no then there is no blame on public of any time.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2017, 05:59:18 PM »
1. Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn ‘Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”
Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.


Existence of Shias of Imam Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) indicates that Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) were known and therefore they had followers i.e. Shias.

2. al-Ash`ari  al-Qummi says in Firaq al-Shia when discussing the followers of al-Baqir (rah):
[As for those who proved the Imamah for `Ali bin abi Talib, then Hassan, then Hussein, then `Ali bin al-Hussein, and afterwards they declared their belief in the Imamah of his son abu Ja`far Muhammad al-Baqir and remained on this state until his death, except a small group from them, because they heard a man called `Umar bin Rayah claim that he asked abu Ja`far about a matter and he gave him an answer, then he returned the next year and asked about the exact same matter but this time he received an answer that opposes the first answer he originally received. He told abu Ja`far: “This opposes the answer you gave me last year.” he replied: “Maybe our answer was out of Taqiyyah.” so he doubted his Imamah. He later met a man from the companions of abu Ja`far called Muhammad bin Qays, so he told him: “I had asked abu Ja`far about a matter so he answered me, then I asked him about it another year so he answered differently, I asked him why did he do this, he said he did it out of Taqiyyah, and Allah knows that I only asked when I was full of faith in him and sincerity and I wanted to practice upon his verdict, so he had no reason to do Taqiyyah with me.”  ibn Qays said: “Maybe he did Taqiyyah because there was someone else in attendance?” He said: “Nobody attended our Majlis in both those times, but his answers were random and he didn’t memorize what he said the previous year so he can answer with it again.” So he disbelieved in his Imamah and said: “He who gives false verdicts cannot be an Imam in any way shape or form, and he who gives his verdicts as Taqiyyah in a way that does not please Allah cannot be an Imam, nor he who sits comfortably at home and keeps his door shut, the Imam must rise against oppression and order what is good and forbid what is evil.” This is why he leaned towards the opinion of the Batriyyah and a small group followed him on this.

sources:
-Bihar al-Anwar by al-Majlisi (73/33) (69/178).
-Tahtheeb al-Maqal fi Tanqeeh Kitab Rijal al-Najashi by Muhammad `Ali Abtahi (3/464


Why did `Umar bin Rayah reject the Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) if there had been no Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) in the first place?

`Umar bin Rayah first believing in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) then doubting & disbelieving in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir a.s (due to his logic) indicates that Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) was known.

However I would like to add a point. According to me Imams (a.s) would not have announced their Imamat publicly in such a way as to create Fitna and Fasad by arousing people to rebel against the rulers of their time.

Our Aimmah (a.s) observed Taqiyyah and instructed their Shias also to observe Taqiyyah by not rebelling against the rulers of their time and thus avoiding Fitna and Fasad in the Ummah caused by the rebellion.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 06:04:13 PM by Ijtaba »

Hani

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2017, 08:11:30 PM »
I am convinced by the answer given by my Imam (a.s)

Our duty is only to obey & follow our Aimmah (a.s)

Then you're not open to discussion, this is a pagan mentality that Muhammad (saw) had to deal with in Makkah. Islam teaches you to question things, that's how you know you're on the right path since you're actively seeking truths.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2017, 08:44:47 PM »
Existence of Shias of Imam Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) indicates that Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) were known and therefore they had followers i.e. Shias.

Why did `Umar bin Rayah reject the Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) if there had been no Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) in the first place?

`Umar bin Rayah first believing in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) then doubting & disbelieving in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir a.s (due to his logic) indicates that Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) was known.

However I would like to add a point. According to me Imams (a.s) would not have announced their Imamat publicly in such a way as to create Fitna and Fasad by arousing people to rebel against the rulers of their time.

Our Aimmah (a.s) observed Taqiyyah and instructed their Shias also to observe Taqiyyah by not rebelling against the rulers of their time and thus avoiding Fitna and Fasad in the Ummah caused by the rebellion.

I think you need to revise what is a "Shia" and what's the definition of "Imam". Nobody doubts the existence of Banu Hashim's Shia nor the Shia of bani Umayyah are `Abbasids. We're saying those Shia were NOT united upon one belief especially not that propagated today in the name of Twelvers. Similarly, Banu `Ali had many Imams, the household produced a good number of Imams some were contemporaries of each-other but this Taqiyyah/Infallibility business was not a belief they held.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2017, 10:51:37 PM »
We believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT).

Believers would believe even if they be born and/or live in Kafir's house (e.g. Momin Ale-Firawn and Wife of Firawn) whereas;

Disbelievers would disbelieve even if they be born and/or live in Nabi's (a.s) house (e.g. Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving son and Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving wife)
How is that an answer to my question? Imam admitted he gave opposite answers, because he did not want people to believe and be guided. Since when a guide for believers suppose to misguide the believers? You shia never make any sense in your answer.

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2017, 03:02:30 PM »
Then you're not open to discussion, this is a pagan mentality that Muhammad (saw) had to deal with in Makkah. Islam teaches you to question things, that's how you know you're on the right path since you're actively seeking truths.

???

I said I am convinced by the answer given by the Imam (a.s) regarding Aimmah (a.s) giving different answers for the same question.

Islam teaches us to question things in order to gain knowledge and not for the sake of arguing, offending nor amusement.

Narrated Abu Musa:
The Prophet (ﷺ) was asked about things which he did not like, but when the questioners insisted, the Prophet got angry. He then said to the people, "Ask me anything you like." A man asked, "Who is my father?" The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "Your father is Hudhafa." Then another man got up and said, "Who is my father, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ?" He replied, "Your father is Salim, Maula (the freed slave) of Shaiba." So when `Umar saw that (the anger) on the face of the Prophet (ﷺ) he said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! We repent to Allah (Our offending you).


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 92
In-book reference : Book 3, Hadith 34
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 3, Hadith 92


Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2017, 03:13:28 PM »
I think you need to revise what is a "Shia" and what's the definition of "Imam". Nobody doubts the existence of Banu Hashim's Shia nor the Shia of bani Umayyah are `Abbasids. We're saying those Shia were NOT united upon one belief especially not that propagated today in the name of Twelvers. Similarly, Banu `Ali had many Imams, the household produced a good number of Imams some were contemporaries of each-other but this Taqiyyah/Infallibility business was not a belief they held.

By Shia I meant such a person who has a leader to whom he attaches himself with regarding his religious and worldly matters/affairs.

By Imam I meant such a person whose orders are to be obeyed/followed.

Narrated Qais bin Abi Hazim:
Abu Bakr went to a lady from the Ahmas tribe called Zainab bint Al-Muhajir and found that she refused to speak. He asked, "Why does she not speak." The people said, "She has intended to perform Hajj without speaking." He said to her, "Speak, for it is illegal not to speak, as it is an action of the pre-islamic period of ignorance. So she spoke and said, "Who are you?" He said, "A man from the Emigrants." She asked, "Which Emigrants?" He replied, "From Quraish." She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3834
In-book reference : Book 63, Hadith 60
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 175

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2017, 03:32:24 PM »
How is that an answer to my question? Imam admitted he gave opposite answers, because he did not want people to believe and be guided. Since when a guide for believers suppose to misguide the believers? You shia never make any sense in your answer.

I will once again repeat what I said earlier.

"We (i.e. Shi'as) believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT)."

To understand better what I mean by Permission of ALLAH (SWT), let me ask you a question.

ALLAH (SWT) says in HIS Book (i.e. Al-Quran) that HE has Power to guide everyone and yet we see that all people are not guided. Why is this the case?

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-An’am 6:149]
Say, "With Allah is the far-reaching argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all."


SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [Yoonus 10:99]
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?


SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-Qasas 28:56]
Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.




Hadrami

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2017, 02:45:55 AM »
we are not discussing Allahs Will. It is about someone who suppose to guide prople, but instead he said he intentionally misguided people and didnt want people to believe and be guided. I know you are trying to defend your sect, but its clearly a pretty desperate attempt to defend someone who misguided people in the name of Allah.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:51:16 AM by Hadrami »

 

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