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Contradictions of the Imams

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Farid

Contradictions of the Imams
« on: November 24, 2017, 05:43:34 AM »
One thing I have never been able to understand is how Shias can argue with the straight face that the Imams do not contradict one another. Here is an example and I hope the Shias on the board do not shrug it off.

1) Maghrib

In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:

1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.

Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time.

What excuse do Shias have for this?

Edit: Fixed typo in last sentence.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 05:49:49 AM by Farid »

whoaretheshia

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 05:47:20 AM »
One thing I have never been able to understand is how Shias can argue with the straight face that the Imams do not contradict one another. Here is an example and I hope the Shias on the board do not shrug it off.

1) Maghrib

In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:

1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.

Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time.

Why excuse do Shias have for this?

This is the problem Farid, you are discussing complex Fiqhi issues on a sub-forum where many will just jump the bandwagon and slander and attack. You have also not addressed simple questions i have asked, such as how you weakened the hadith in Musnad Ahmad? I find you a well mannered and respectable brother - and i really mean that. However, i do feel at times the approach is more aimed at causing a scene and invoking emotions, rather than any critical debate.

DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Farid

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 05:51:09 AM »
Quote
This is the problem Farid, you are discussing complex Fiqhi issues on a sub-forum where many will just jump the bandwagon and slander and attack.

Brother, if you are not interested in providing a response to a topic as "complex" as the timing of Maghrib, then please allow the Shia brothers to.

whoaretheshia

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 12:00:52 PM »
This is the problem Farid, you are discussing complex Fiqhi issues on a sub-forum where many will just jump the bandwagon and slander and attack.


I've been involved in answering this before, and what happens is a perpetual game of finding another Fiqhi difference, and then engaging in discussing that once one is rebutted. Especially on TSN, where i have seen people may just stubbornly hold beliefs or move the goal posts. I have responded to several people on several issues and i realise how futile it would be to get involved in this issue, as well as the thread on 'Rabbit Meat proves Shia Islam is a Jewish religion'. When this is resolved , people will move onto Rabbit meat.

Let's put aside Rabbit meat, i want to talk Aqeedah, could you answer for me that given the Arsh and Kursiy are both creations of Allah the Almighty, how then are his two feet between the Arsh and Kursiy and thus a part of Allah is between his creation?

You based your defence of Umulmumineen Aisha and the issue of an adult being able to become mahram through suckling on weakened a narrator. What your audience was not told was that you decided to use a standard of Rijal that is based on principles no-one ever uses: Taking the view of Ibn Hiban of all people, and two other middle-weight/Lower weight Rijal scholars, and ignoring a large body who grade the narrator Thiqah, or men like Ibn Hajar who have graded him as one of the levels of truthful. After persistently asking you on what basis have you gone against the views of the majority of scholars in how you graded this, with respect dear brother, there was no reply.

DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Farid

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 01:01:17 PM »
The goal of this thread is not to discuss fiqhi matters. It is, as the title suggests, about the contradictions of the Imams, that are supposed to be infallible. That is a matter of aqeedah.

If you want to continue to discuss those other topics, feel free to do so in the other threads. I will not have my threads derailed. Thank you.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 03:10:32 PM »
Contradictory ahadeeth of Infallible Shia Imams, is not a minor issue, that one could just shrug off, comparing it with difference of opinion between Sunni madhabs of jurisprudenc. This matter was so serious that some Shias left Shiism, due to this issue. Which is quite obvious because things such as this are unacceptable from infallibles.

Here are few testimonies from Shia sources showing that how and why some Shias left Shiism.

1. Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn ‘Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”
Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.

source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.

2.

al-Ash`ari  al-Qummi says in Firaq al-Shia when discussing the followers of al-Baqir (rah):
[As for those who proved the Imamah for `Ali bin abi Talib, then Hassan, then Hussein, then `Ali bin al-Hussein, and afterwards they declared their belief in the Imamah of his son abu Ja`far Muhammad al-Baqir and remained on this state until his death, except a small group from them, because they heard a man called `Umar bin Rayah claim that he asked abu Ja`far about a matter and he gave him an answer, then he returned the next year and asked about the exact same matter but this time he received an answer that opposes the first answer he originally received. He told abu Ja`far: “This opposes the answer you gave me last year.” he replied: “Maybe our answer was out of Taqiyyah.” so he doubted his Imamah. He later met a man from the companions of abu Ja`far called Muhammad bin Qays, so he told him: “I had asked abu Ja`far about a matter so he answered me, then I asked him about it another year so he answered differently, I asked him why did he do this, he said he did it out of Taqiyyah, and Allah knows that I only asked when I was full of faith in him and sincerity and I wanted to practice upon his verdict, so he had no reason to do Taqiyyah with me.”  ibn Qays said: “Maybe he did Taqiyyah because there was someone else in attendance?” He said: “Nobody attended our Majlis in both those times, but his answers were random and he didn’t memorize what he said the previous year so he can answer with it again.” So he disbelieved in his Imamah and said: “He who gives false verdicts cannot be an Imam in any way shape or form, and he who gives his verdicts as Taqiyyah in a way that does not please Allah cannot be an Imam, nor he who sits comfortably at home and keeps his door shut, the Imam must rise against oppression and order what is good and forbid what is evil.” This is why he leaned towards the opinion of the Batriyyah and a small group followed him on this.

sources:
-Bihar al-Anwar by al-Majlisi (73/33) (69/178).
-Tahtheeb al-Maqal fi Tanqeeh Kitab Rijal al-Najashi by Muhammad `Ali Abtahi (3/464

3. The Esteemed Shaykh of Shiism, Tusi says in his Tahtheeb:
ويقول شيخ الطائفة الطوسي في تهذيبه: إن أحاديث أصحابنا فيها من الاختلاف والتباين والمنافاة والتضاد حتى لا يكاد يتفق خبر إلا وبإزائه ما يضاده، ولا يسلم حديث إلا وفي مقابلته ما ينافيه حتي جعل مخالفونا ذلك من أعظم الطعون على مذهبنا وتطرقوا بذلك إلى إبطال معتقدنا، إلى أن قال: أنه بسبب ذلك رجع جماعة عن اعتقاد الحق ومنهم أبوالحسين الهاروني العلوي حيث كان يعتقد الحق ويدين بالإمامة فرجع عنها لما إلتبس عليه الأمر في اختلاف الأحاديث وترك المذهب ودان بغيره لما لم يتبين له وجوه المعاني فيها، وهذا يدل على أنه دخل فيه على غير بصيرة واعتقد المذهب من جهة التقليد

تهديب الأحكام،1/2

And among the Hadiths (narrated) by our companions (Shia scholars/companions of the Imams) are so many disparities, contrast, contravening and contradictions that you will not find a single report that we agree upon which doesn’t have another that contradicts it, and not a single Hadith is safe from another which denies it. These (contradictions) are to such an extent that our opponents (the Muslims/Ahl Al-Sunnah) have used it as the biggest accusation/attack against our school and as a proof for the falsehood of our creed. (Until he said): ‘… and this is why a number (of Shias) have left the true creed and amongst them are the likes of Abu Al-Hassan Al-Harouni Al-Alawi, who used to be on the true creed, upon the creed of Imamah (Imamate), but he turned away from it when confusion overtook him due to the issue of the contradicting Hadiths. So he left the school (of Shiism) and attached himself to another (school), as he could not grasp the different understanding (of our text) and this is an indication that he did not embraced it (Shiism) without insight, rather based on Taqleed. Source: Tahtheeb Al-Ahkam 1/8 by sheikh of the sect al Tusi.

4. Esteemed Shia scholar Ja’far al-Subhani says in “al-Rasael al-Arba’ah” pg.201:

عندما نطالع كتابي: الوسائل، والمستدرك مثلاً؛ نرى أنه ما من باب من أبواب الفقه إلا وفيه اختلاف في رواياته، وهذا مما أدى إلى رجوع بعض ممن استبصروا عن مذهب الإمامية

When we read the two books (of Hadith): Wasael al-Shia and Mustadrak al-Wasael for example, we see that there is NO chapter or Fiqhi section which is free from conflicting narrations, this has caused some of those who converted to the Imami Madhab to leave it.

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 03:36:30 PM »
One thing I have never been able to understand is how Shias can argue with the straight face that the Imams do not contradict one another. Here is an example and I hope the Shias on the board do not shrug it off.

1) Maghrib

In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:

1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.

Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time.

What excuse do Shias have for this?

Edit: Fixed typo in last sentence.

According to our Aimmah (a.s) if there comes two conflicting reports from two Imams (a.s) then report from latest Imam (a.s) should be followed. In this case (i.e. time for Maghrib) Imam Ali al-Redha (a.s) would be followed.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 04:05:52 PM »
According to our Aimmah (a.s) if there comes two conflicting reports from two Imams (a.s) then report from latest Imam (a.s) should be followed. In this case (i.e. time for Maghrib) Imam Ali al-Redha (a.s) would be followed.

The question is not why you follow the opinion of one Imam. Please try to understand the gist of the purpose of this thread.

The question is how can two infallible Imams who are bound to preach a religion which is completed and cannot be changed, give contradictory verdicts.

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 05:43:25 PM »
The question is not why you follow the opinion of one Imam. Please try to understand the gist of the purpose of this thread.

The question is how can two infallible Imams who are bound to preach a religion which is completed and cannot be changed, give contradictory verdicts.

Agreed. Islam is complete religion and cannot be changed.

We shias believe that our Aimmah (a.s) give different conflicting/contradicting verdicts based on time, event, situation, etc but they never oppose one another. For e.g. if Imam Hussain (a.s) was in place & time of Imam Hassan (a.s) then Imam Hussain (a.s) would had done peace treaty with Muʿāwiyah and similarly if Imam Hassan (a.s) was in place of Imam Hussain (a.s) then Imam Hassan (a.s) would had rejected Yazīd as Caliph and would had set out for Al-Kufah.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 05:44:41 PM by Ijtaba »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2017, 05:56:03 PM »
The question is not why you follow the opinion of one Imam. Please try to understand the gist of the purpose of this thread.

The question is how can two infallible Imams who are bound to preach a religion which is completed and cannot be changed, give contradictory verdicts.

Agreed. Islam is complete religion and cannot be changed.

We shias believe that our Aimmah (a.s) give different conflicting/contradicting verdicts based on time, event, situation, etc but they never oppose one another.

So there was a time or situation that the time for breaking of fast was when sun didapear. Then there rose a situation wherein the time got delayed to the disappearance of Redness in east.

Lol. Sorry mate, but your Imams gave their Shias  obvious reasons to leave Shiism.

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2017, 06:14:29 PM »
So there was a time or situation that the time for breaking of fast was when sun didapear. Then there rose a situation wherein the time got delayed to the disappearance of Redness in east.

Lol. Sorry mate, but your Imams gave their Shias  obvious reasons to leave Shiism.

For me, my Imams (a.s) gave me obvious reasons to stick to Shi'ism.

If my Imam (a.s) says during a bright day that its not day but night & during dark night that its not night but day... I would believe what my Imam (a.s) says.

The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 06:56:12 PM »
So there was a time or situation that the time for breaking of fast was when sun didapear. Then there rose a situation wherein the time got delayed to the disappearance of Redness in east.

Lol. Sorry mate, but your Imams gave their Shias  obvious reasons to leave Shiism.

For me, my Imams (a.s) gave me obvious reasons to stick to Shi'ism.

If my Imam (a.s) says during a bright day that its not day but night & during dark night that its not night but day... I would believe what my Imam (a.s) says.

The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.

LOL.

Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? For such there are no helpers.(Quran 30:29)

 

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2017, 07:24:50 PM »
LOL.

Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? For such there are no helpers.(Quran 30:29)

According to you I am misguided person who follow his lusts then let me ask you a question as you think yourself as guided knowledgeable person. Below I have pasted an event which I took from Wikipedia:

Isra and Mi‘rāj

When the news of the Mi‘rāj reached Abu Jahl, he went to Muhammad who was sitting next to the Ka’bah. Abu Jahl asked Muhammad, “Anything new today?” Muhammad replied, “Yes, last night I went to Jerusalem and came back.” Abu Jahl said, “O Muhammad, if I would call your people right now and bring them here, would you tell them the same thing what you just told me?” Muhammad said, “Yes, I would.” Abu Jahl, happy and pleased, went running and called the people of Quraysh to come forward and asked Muhammad to repeat the news. Abu Jahl did not want to miss the golden opportunity of ridiculing Muhammad in front of the public; so on hearing the news of the Mi‘rāj, the whole gathering broke into laughter and started clapping and whistling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amr_ibn_Hishām

Now I ask you what would you do when you had been there? Would you say to Abu Jahl and the whole gathering that I believe what Mohammed (s.a.w.w) has said to be true? If yes then please let me know what answer would you give to Abu Jahl and the people gathered for believing in Miraj of Prophet (s.a.w.w).

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 07:35:22 PM »
LOL.

Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? For such there are no helpers.(Quran 30:29)

According to you I am misguided person who follow his lusts then let me ask you a question as you think yourself as guided knowledgeable person. Below I have pasted an event which I took from Wikipedia:

Isra and Mi‘rāj

When the news of the Mi‘rāj reached Abu Jahl, he went to Muhammad who was sitting next to the Ka’bah. Abu Jahl asked Muhammad, “Anything new today?” Muhammad replied, “Yes, last night I went to Jerusalem and came back.” Abu Jahl said, “O Muhammad, if I would call your people right now and bring them here, would you tell them the same thing what you just told me?” Muhammad said, “Yes, I would.” Abu Jahl, happy and pleased, went running and called the people of Quraysh to come forward and asked Muhammad to repeat the news. Abu Jahl did not want to miss the golden opportunity of ridiculing Muhammad in front of the public; so on hearing the news of the Mi‘rāj, the whole gathering broke into laughter and started clapping and whistling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amr_ibn_Hishām

Now I ask you what would you do when you had been there? Would you say to Abu Jahl and the whole gathering that I believe what Mohammed (s.a.w.w) has said to be true? If yes then please let me know what answer would you give to Abu Jahl and the people gathered for believing in Miraj of Prophet (s.a.w.w).

Sorry mate! You are being quite desperate. It's like comparing apples with oranges.  Isra wal Meraj was a miracle. What we are discussing is a general routine ruling. That's why those Shias who left Shiism after finding inconsistencies in the teachings of Imams, never objected to the possibility of supernatural events by Imams, but the question about the general rulings coming from them.

Ijtaba

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2017, 07:53:47 PM »
Sorry mate! You are being quite desperate. It's like comparing apples with oranges.  Isra wal Meraj was a miracle. What we are discussing is a general routine ruling. That's why those Shias who left Shiism after finding inconsistencies in the teachings of Imams, never objected to the possibility of supernatural events by Imams, but the question about the general rulings coming from them.

Miracle?

But isn't miracle something that is witnessed by people?

muslim720

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2017, 12:14:20 AM »
The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.

SubhanAllah!  You do not argue with your Aimmah (ra) even when they provide contradicting opinions but you cannot cease to mock authentic narrations of the Prophet (saw) just because they do not add up to your line of reasoning or were narrated by those you do not like.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 12:15:33 AM by muslim720 »

Farid

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2017, 02:28:30 AM »
Back to topic please.

Quote from: Ijtaba
According to our Aimmah (a.s) if there comes two conflicting reports from two Imams (a.s) then report from latest Imam (a.s) should be followed. In this case (i.e. time for Maghrib) Imam Ali al-Redha (a.s) would be followed.

Fair enough. Though, this means that Ja'afar Al-Sadiq actively taught people to break their fast twelve minutes before the time that was affirmed by Allah (acc. to the second view).

Is this not problematic for you?

Hani

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2017, 03:42:54 AM »
For me, my Imams (a.s) gave me obvious reasons to stick to Shi'ism.

If my Imam (a.s) says during a bright day that its not day but night & during dark night that its not night but day... I would believe what my Imam (a.s) says.

The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.

If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2017, 11:58:04 AM »
The problem isn't just with the contradicting rulings, it's with the excuse as to why the rulings are contradictory -namely Taqiyyah-
 and the supposed character of those who practiced it.

For instance, let's hear what `Ali thinks by taking a few statements of his

والله، لو لقيتُهم واحداً  وهم طلاعُ الأرض كلها  ، ما باليتُ ولا إستوحشتُ

[By Allah, if I face them alone (i.e the enemies) even if they are great in numbers that they fill the surface of the earth I shall not care (i.e I will still fight) nor will I seek an ally (i.e I don't need helpers).]

واللهِ ما أبالي، أدخلتُ على الموت؟ أو خرج الموتُ إليّ

[By Allah, I do not care if I seek death or it seeks me (i.e I'm not afraid to die).]

وإني لمن قومٍ لا تأخذهم في الله لومة لائم

[I belong to a clan that does not fear the reproach of a reproacher when it comes to religion (i.e I do what's right in spite of everyone).]

أنا أبو الحسن الذي فللتُ حد المشركين وفرقت جماعتهم

[I am abu al-Hasan, the one who broke the pagans and scattered their armies.]

والله لو أعطوني الأقاليمَ السبعة على أن أعصي الله في نملة ما فعلتُ

[By Allah, even if they give me authority over the entire land on the condition that I disobey God in the smallest matter, I shall not.]

.
.
.

Then he does Taqiyyah in the dumbest things like Mut`ah and whatnot for a period of 20 years until he becomes Khalifah, then as a Khalifah he continues his Taqiyyah according to them out of fear of losing support from "Shaykhayn lovers" in his army in addition to being pressured by his own Shia soldiers to do whatever they want (e.g arbitration) what a joke of a faith and what a shameful Madhab.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Re: Contradictions of the Imams
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2017, 01:40:05 PM »
If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."

Seeing how Shias are normally very vocal about how a "Thorough study of Adalah" should be done on the Sahabah (RAA), it would be interesting to see what a similar thorough study of Adalah applied to their Imams based only on their own Twelver narrations would lead to.

 

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