TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Farid on November 24, 2017, 05:43:34 AM
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One thing I have never been able to understand is how Shias can argue with the straight face that the Imams do not contradict one another. Here is an example and I hope the Shias on the board do not shrug it off.
1) Maghrib
In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:
1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.
Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time.
What excuse do Shias have for this?
Edit: Fixed typo in last sentence.
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One thing I have never been able to understand is how Shias can argue with the straight face that the Imams do not contradict one another. Here is an example and I hope the Shias on the board do not shrug it off.
1) Maghrib
In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:
1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.
Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time.
Why excuse do Shias have for this?
This is the problem Farid, you are discussing complex Fiqhi issues on a sub-forum where many will just jump the bandwagon and slander and attack. You have also not addressed simple questions i have asked, such as how you weakened the hadith in Musnad Ahmad? I find you a well mannered and respectable brother - and i really mean that. However, i do feel at times the approach is more aimed at causing a scene and invoking emotions, rather than any critical debate.
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This is the problem Farid, you are discussing complex Fiqhi issues on a sub-forum where many will just jump the bandwagon and slander and attack.
Brother, if you are not interested in providing a response to a topic as "complex" as the timing of Maghrib, then please allow the Shia brothers to.
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This is the problem Farid, you are discussing complex Fiqhi issues on a sub-forum where many will just jump the bandwagon and slander and attack.
I've been involved in answering this before, and what happens is a perpetual game of finding another Fiqhi difference, and then engaging in discussing that once one is rebutted. Especially on TSN, where i have seen people may just stubbornly hold beliefs or move the goal posts. I have responded to several people on several issues and i realise how futile it would be to get involved in this issue, as well as the thread on 'Rabbit Meat proves Shia Islam is a Jewish religion'. When this is resolved , people will move onto Rabbit meat.
Let's put aside Rabbit meat, i want to talk Aqeedah, could you answer for me that given the Arsh and Kursiy are both creations of Allah the Almighty, how then are his two feet between the Arsh and Kursiy and thus a part of Allah is between his creation?
You based your defence of Umulmumineen Aisha and the issue of an adult being able to become mahram through suckling on weakened a narrator. What your audience was not told was that you decided to use a standard of Rijal that is based on principles no-one ever uses: Taking the view of Ibn Hiban of all people, and two other middle-weight/Lower weight Rijal scholars, and ignoring a large body who grade the narrator Thiqah, or men like Ibn Hajar who have graded him as one of the levels of truthful. After persistently asking you on what basis have you gone against the views of the majority of scholars in how you graded this, with respect dear brother, there was no reply.
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The goal of this thread is not to discuss fiqhi matters. It is, as the title suggests, about the contradictions of the Imams, that are supposed to be infallible. That is a matter of aqeedah.
If you want to continue to discuss those other topics, feel free to do so in the other threads. I will not have my threads derailed. Thank you.
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Contradictory ahadeeth of Infallible Shia Imams, is not a minor issue, that one could just shrug off, comparing it with difference of opinion between Sunni madhabs of jurisprudenc. This matter was so serious that some Shias left Shiism, due to this issue. Which is quite obvious because things such as this are unacceptable from infallibles.
Here are few testimonies from Shia sources showing that how and why some Shias left Shiism.
1. Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn ‘Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”
Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.
source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.
2.
al-Ash`ari al-Qummi says in Firaq al-Shia when discussing the followers of al-Baqir (rah):
[As for those who proved the Imamah for `Ali bin abi Talib, then Hassan, then Hussein, then `Ali bin al-Hussein, and afterwards they declared their belief in the Imamah of his son abu Ja`far Muhammad al-Baqir and remained on this state until his death, except a small group from them, because they heard a man called `Umar bin Rayah claim that he asked abu Ja`far about a matter and he gave him an answer, then he returned the next year and asked about the exact same matter but this time he received an answer that opposes the first answer he originally received. He told abu Ja`far: “This opposes the answer you gave me last year.” he replied: “Maybe our answer was out of Taqiyyah.” so he doubted his Imamah. He later met a man from the companions of abu Ja`far called Muhammad bin Qays, so he told him: “I had asked abu Ja`far about a matter so he answered me, then I asked him about it another year so he answered differently, I asked him why did he do this, he said he did it out of Taqiyyah, and Allah knows that I only asked when I was full of faith in him and sincerity and I wanted to practice upon his verdict, so he had no reason to do Taqiyyah with me.” ibn Qays said: “Maybe he did Taqiyyah because there was someone else in attendance?” He said: “Nobody attended our Majlis in both those times, but his answers were random and he didn’t memorize what he said the previous year so he can answer with it again.” So he disbelieved in his Imamah and said: “He who gives false verdicts cannot be an Imam in any way shape or form, and he who gives his verdicts as Taqiyyah in a way that does not please Allah cannot be an Imam, nor he who sits comfortably at home and keeps his door shut, the Imam must rise against oppression and order what is good and forbid what is evil.” This is why he leaned towards the opinion of the Batriyyah and a small group followed him on this.
sources:
-Bihar al-Anwar by al-Majlisi (73/33) (69/178).
-Tahtheeb al-Maqal fi Tanqeeh Kitab Rijal al-Najashi by Muhammad `Ali Abtahi (3/464
3. The Esteemed Shaykh of Shiism, Tusi says in his Tahtheeb:
ويقول شيخ الطائفة الطوسي في تهذيبه: إن أحاديث أصحابنا فيها من الاختلاف والتباين والمنافاة والتضاد حتى لا يكاد يتفق خبر إلا وبإزائه ما يضاده، ولا يسلم حديث إلا وفي مقابلته ما ينافيه حتي جعل مخالفونا ذلك من أعظم الطعون على مذهبنا وتطرقوا بذلك إلى إبطال معتقدنا، إلى أن قال: أنه بسبب ذلك رجع جماعة عن اعتقاد الحق ومنهم أبوالحسين الهاروني العلوي حيث كان يعتقد الحق ويدين بالإمامة فرجع عنها لما إلتبس عليه الأمر في اختلاف الأحاديث وترك المذهب ودان بغيره لما لم يتبين له وجوه المعاني فيها، وهذا يدل على أنه دخل فيه على غير بصيرة واعتقد المذهب من جهة التقليد
تهديب الأحكام،1/2
And among the Hadiths (narrated) by our companions (Shia scholars/companions of the Imams) are so many disparities, contrast, contravening and contradictions that you will not find a single report that we agree upon which doesn’t have another that contradicts it, and not a single Hadith is safe from another which denies it. These (contradictions) are to such an extent that our opponents (the Muslims/Ahl Al-Sunnah) have used it as the biggest accusation/attack against our school and as a proof for the falsehood of our creed. (Until he said): ‘… and this is why a number (of Shias) have left the true creed and amongst them are the likes of Abu Al-Hassan Al-Harouni Al-Alawi, who used to be on the true creed, upon the creed of Imamah (Imamate), but he turned away from it when confusion overtook him due to the issue of the contradicting Hadiths. So he left the school (of Shiism) and attached himself to another (school), as he could not grasp the different understanding (of our text) and this is an indication that he did not embraced it (Shiism) without insight, rather based on Taqleed. Source: Tahtheeb Al-Ahkam 1/8 by sheikh of the sect al Tusi.
4. Esteemed Shia scholar Ja’far al-Subhani says in “al-Rasael al-Arba’ah” pg.201:
عندما نطالع كتابي: الوسائل، والمستدرك مثلاً؛ نرى أنه ما من باب من أبواب الفقه إلا وفيه اختلاف في رواياته، وهذا مما أدى إلى رجوع بعض ممن استبصروا عن مذهب الإمامية
When we read the two books (of Hadith): Wasael al-Shia and Mustadrak al-Wasael for example, we see that there is NO chapter or Fiqhi section which is free from conflicting narrations, this has caused some of those who converted to the Imami Madhab to leave it.
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One thing I have never been able to understand is how Shias can argue with the straight face that the Imams do not contradict one another. Here is an example and I hope the Shias on the board do not shrug it off.
1) Maghrib
In Al-Istibsaar, we find that the Imam prescribes different timing for maghrib. Here is a shortlist of the opinions along with the hadith number:
1-10 Al-Sadiq: When the sun disappears.
17-21: Al-Baqir/Al-Sadiq/Al-Redha: When the redness of the East disappears.
Today, the vast majority of Shias follow the second view, meaning that those that listened to the opinion of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq in the first hadiths, have all been breaking their fast before the correct time.
What excuse do Shias have for this?
Edit: Fixed typo in last sentence.
According to our Aimmah (a.s) if there comes two conflicting reports from two Imams (a.s) then report from latest Imam (a.s) should be followed. In this case (i.e. time for Maghrib) Imam Ali al-Redha (a.s) would be followed.
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According to our Aimmah (a.s) if there comes two conflicting reports from two Imams (a.s) then report from latest Imam (a.s) should be followed. In this case (i.e. time for Maghrib) Imam Ali al-Redha (a.s) would be followed.
The question is not why you follow the opinion of one Imam. Please try to understand the gist of the purpose of this thread.
The question is how can two infallible Imams who are bound to preach a religion which is completed and cannot be changed, give contradictory verdicts.
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The question is not why you follow the opinion of one Imam. Please try to understand the gist of the purpose of this thread.
The question is how can two infallible Imams who are bound to preach a religion which is completed and cannot be changed, give contradictory verdicts.
Agreed. Islam is complete religion and cannot be changed.
We shias believe that our Aimmah (a.s) give different conflicting/contradicting verdicts based on time, event, situation, etc but they never oppose one another. For e.g. if Imam Hussain (a.s) was in place & time of Imam Hassan (a.s) then Imam Hussain (a.s) would had done peace treaty with Muʿāwiyah and similarly if Imam Hassan (a.s) was in place of Imam Hussain (a.s) then Imam Hassan (a.s) would had rejected Yazīd as Caliph and would had set out for Al-Kufah.
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The question is not why you follow the opinion of one Imam. Please try to understand the gist of the purpose of this thread.
The question is how can two infallible Imams who are bound to preach a religion which is completed and cannot be changed, give contradictory verdicts.
Agreed. Islam is complete religion and cannot be changed.
We shias believe that our Aimmah (a.s) give different conflicting/contradicting verdicts based on time, event, situation, etc but they never oppose one another.
So there was a time or situation that the time for breaking of fast was when sun didapear. Then there rose a situation wherein the time got delayed to the disappearance of Redness in east.
Lol. Sorry mate, but your Imams gave their Shias obvious reasons to leave Shiism.
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So there was a time or situation that the time for breaking of fast was when sun didapear. Then there rose a situation wherein the time got delayed to the disappearance of Redness in east.
Lol. Sorry mate, but your Imams gave their Shias obvious reasons to leave Shiism.
For me, my Imams (a.s) gave me obvious reasons to stick to Shi'ism.
If my Imam (a.s) says during a bright day that its not day but night & during dark night that its not night but day... I would believe what my Imam (a.s) says.
The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.
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So there was a time or situation that the time for breaking of fast was when sun didapear. Then there rose a situation wherein the time got delayed to the disappearance of Redness in east.
Lol. Sorry mate, but your Imams gave their Shias obvious reasons to leave Shiism.
For me, my Imams (a.s) gave me obvious reasons to stick to Shi'ism.
If my Imam (a.s) says during a bright day that its not day but night & during dark night that its not night but day... I would believe what my Imam (a.s) says.
The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.
LOL.
Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? For such there are no helpers.(Quran 30:29)
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LOL.
Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? For such there are no helpers.(Quran 30:29)
According to you I am misguided person who follow his lusts then let me ask you a question as you think yourself as guided knowledgeable person. Below I have pasted an event which I took from Wikipedia:
Isra and Mi‘rāj
When the news of the Mi‘rāj reached Abu Jahl, he went to Muhammad who was sitting next to the Ka’bah. Abu Jahl asked Muhammad, “Anything new today?” Muhammad replied, “Yes, last night I went to Jerusalem and came back.” Abu Jahl said, “O Muhammad, if I would call your people right now and bring them here, would you tell them the same thing what you just told me?” Muhammad said, “Yes, I would.” Abu Jahl, happy and pleased, went running and called the people of Quraysh to come forward and asked Muhammad to repeat the news. Abu Jahl did not want to miss the golden opportunity of ridiculing Muhammad in front of the public; so on hearing the news of the Mi‘rāj, the whole gathering broke into laughter and started clapping and whistling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amr_ibn_Hishām
Now I ask you what would you do when you had been there? Would you say to Abu Jahl and the whole gathering that I believe what Mohammed (s.a.w.w) has said to be true? If yes then please let me know what answer would you give to Abu Jahl and the people gathered for believing in Miraj of Prophet (s.a.w.w).
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LOL.
Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? For such there are no helpers.(Quran 30:29)
According to you I am misguided person who follow his lusts then let me ask you a question as you think yourself as guided knowledgeable person. Below I have pasted an event which I took from Wikipedia:
Isra and Mi‘rāj
When the news of the Mi‘rāj reached Abu Jahl, he went to Muhammad who was sitting next to the Ka’bah. Abu Jahl asked Muhammad, “Anything new today?” Muhammad replied, “Yes, last night I went to Jerusalem and came back.” Abu Jahl said, “O Muhammad, if I would call your people right now and bring them here, would you tell them the same thing what you just told me?” Muhammad said, “Yes, I would.” Abu Jahl, happy and pleased, went running and called the people of Quraysh to come forward and asked Muhammad to repeat the news. Abu Jahl did not want to miss the golden opportunity of ridiculing Muhammad in front of the public; so on hearing the news of the Mi‘rāj, the whole gathering broke into laughter and started clapping and whistling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amr_ibn_Hishām
Now I ask you what would you do when you had been there? Would you say to Abu Jahl and the whole gathering that I believe what Mohammed (s.a.w.w) has said to be true? If yes then please let me know what answer would you give to Abu Jahl and the people gathered for believing in Miraj of Prophet (s.a.w.w).
Sorry mate! You are being quite desperate. It's like comparing apples with oranges. Isra wal Meraj was a miracle. What we are discussing is a general routine ruling. That's why those Shias who left Shiism after finding inconsistencies in the teachings of Imams, never objected to the possibility of supernatural events by Imams, but the question about the general rulings coming from them.
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Sorry mate! You are being quite desperate. It's like comparing apples with oranges. Isra wal Meraj was a miracle. What we are discussing is a general routine ruling. That's why those Shias who left Shiism after finding inconsistencies in the teachings of Imams, never objected to the possibility of supernatural events by Imams, but the question about the general rulings coming from them.
Miracle?
But isn't miracle something that is witnessed by people?
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The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.
SubhanAllah! You do not argue with your Aimmah (ra) even when they provide contradicting opinions but you cannot cease to mock authentic narrations of the Prophet (saw) just because they do not add up to your line of reasoning or were narrated by those you do not like.
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Back to topic please.
According to our Aimmah (a.s) if there comes two conflicting reports from two Imams (a.s) then report from latest Imam (a.s) should be followed. In this case (i.e. time for Maghrib) Imam Ali al-Redha (a.s) would be followed.
Fair enough. Though, this means that Ja'afar Al-Sadiq actively taught people to break their fast twelve minutes before the time that was affirmed by Allah (acc. to the second view).
Is this not problematic for you?
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For me, my Imams (a.s) gave me obvious reasons to stick to Shi'ism.
If my Imam (a.s) says during a bright day that its not day but night & during dark night that its not night but day... I would believe what my Imam (a.s) says.
The thing is we shias believe that we would be rewarded for following & obeying our Aimmah (a.s) without arguing with them (a.s) on their conflicting/contradicting verdicts/opinions/answers.
If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."
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The problem isn't just with the contradicting rulings, it's with the excuse as to why the rulings are contradictory -namely Taqiyyah-
and the supposed character of those who practiced it.
For instance, let's hear what `Ali thinks by taking a few statements of his
والله، لو لقيتُهم واحداً وهم طلاعُ الأرض كلها ، ما باليتُ ولا إستوحشتُ
[By Allah, if I face them alone (i.e the enemies) even if they are great in numbers that they fill the surface of the earth I shall not care (i.e I will still fight) nor will I seek an ally (i.e I don't need helpers).]
واللهِ ما أبالي، أدخلتُ على الموت؟ أو خرج الموتُ إليّ
[By Allah, I do not care if I seek death or it seeks me (i.e I'm not afraid to die).]
وإني لمن قومٍ لا تأخذهم في الله لومة لائم
[I belong to a clan that does not fear the reproach of a reproacher when it comes to religion (i.e I do what's right in spite of everyone).]
أنا أبو الحسن الذي فللتُ حد المشركين وفرقت جماعتهم
[I am abu al-Hasan, the one who broke the pagans and scattered their armies.]
والله لو أعطوني الأقاليمَ السبعة على أن أعصي الله في نملة ما فعلتُ
[By Allah, even if they give me authority over the entire land on the condition that I disobey God in the smallest matter, I shall not.]
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Then he does Taqiyyah in the dumbest things like Mut`ah and whatnot for a period of 20 years until he becomes Khalifah, then as a Khalifah he continues his Taqiyyah according to them out of fear of losing support from "Shaykhayn lovers" in his army in addition to being pressured by his own Shia soldiers to do whatever they want (e.g arbitration) what a joke of a faith and what a shameful Madhab.
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If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."
Seeing how Shias are normally very vocal about how a "Thorough study of Adalah" should be done on the Sahabah (RAA), it would be interesting to see what a similar thorough study of Adalah applied to their Imams based only on their own Twelver narrations would lead to.
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If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."
There is also another thing, which is that for a Messenger (AS), one can see that the ruling may have actually changed and the Messenger is informing his followers of the new ruling, but the major claim of the opponent is that the "Imam" is preserving the completed set of rulings*...unless the Shia is claiming outright Prophethood/Messengership for their Imams, then the discussion changes altogether.
* A lot of the vitriol against us Sunnis is exactly this, that we through criminal negligence or outright fabrication don't know or don't care to apply the proper rulings.
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Back to topic please.
Fair enough. Though, this means that Ja'afar Al-Sadiq actively taught people to break their fast twelve minutes before the time that was affirmed by Allah (acc. to the second view).
Is this not problematic for you?
No... because we will be rewarded for obeying our Imam (a.s). Those who obeyed Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s) and opened their fast twelve minutes before will be rewarded for their obedience and those who disobeyed the Imam (a.s) would be punished.
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SubhanAllah! You do not argue with your Aimmah (ra) even when they provide contradicting opinions but you cannot cease to mock authentic narrations of the Prophet (saw) just because they do not add up to your line of reasoning or were narrated by those you do not like.
I would not argue with my Aimmah (a.s) but would definitely ask/question them (a.s) in order to gain knowledge as to giving different answers (and contradicting opinions) for the same question.
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If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."
We can agree to disagree.
I on the other hand would ask the reason for giving contradictory rulings and after being satisfied with the answer would accept his prophethood.
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We can agree to disagree.
I on the other hand would ask the reason for giving contradictory rulings and after being satisfied with the answer would accept his prophethood.
If you ask for a reason, imam would say he didnt want people to believe in him or didnt want people to be guided due to their safety. A clever shia would then ask, if you dont want people to believe & be guided WTH are you doing here and call yourself a guide then? 😁
[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”
Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]
source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.
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I guess the Imam above means that if he was consistent, the Shia would appear as truthful and would attract attention lol
So he left them divided in misguidance so no one would take them seriously ... which nobody does to this day.
Is this the convincing answer you were looking for brother Ijtaba? The man seems like a complete fraud to me (or his Shia are the frauds)
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No... because we will be rewarded for obeying our Imam (a.s). Those who obeyed Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s) and opened their fast twelve minutes before will be rewarded for their obedience and those who disobeyed the Imam (a.s) would be punished.
Well if they're rewarded for practicing incorrect laws because their intentions were to obey the divine leader. Then Sunnies are rewarded also for their intentions of following the Messenger (saw) even if their rulings are all incorrect.
No point in the guidance of the Imams or Shiasm then.
{You are only a warner and for every people there is a guide} [Qur'an]
A useless guide?
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If you ask for a reason, imam would say he didnt want people to believe in him or didnt want people to be guided due to their safety. A clever shia would then ask, if you dont want people to believe & be guided WTH are you doing here and call yourself a guide then? 😁
[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”
Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]
source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.
@ijtaba, you said you will ask for a reason, now theres your imam's reason for giving conflicting rulings. Shouldnt shia blame the misguiding imam for not wanting people to believe and be guided before blaming sahaba or everyone else?
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If you ask for a reason, imam would say he didnt want people to believe in him or didnt want people to be guided due to their safety. A clever shia would then ask, if you dont want people to believe & be guided WTH are you doing here and call yourself a guide then? 😁
[Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn `Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”
Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]
source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.
I am satisfied with the reason given by my Imam (a.s)
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I guess the Imam above means that if he was consistent, the Shia would appear as truthful and would attract attention lol
So he left them divided in misguidance so no one would take them seriously ... which nobody does to this day.
Is this the convincing answer you were looking for brother Ijtaba? The man seems like a complete fraud to me (or his Shia are the frauds)
I am convinced by the answer given by my Imam (a.s)
Our duty is only to obey & follow our Aimmah (a.s)
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@ijtaba, you said you will ask for a reason, now theres your imam's reason for giving conflicting rulings. Shouldnt shia blame the misguiding imam for not wanting people to believe and be guided before blaming sahaba or everyone else?
We believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT).
Believers would believe even if they be born and/or live in Kafir's house (e.g. Momin Ale-Firawn and Wife of Firawn) whereas;
Disbelievers would disbelieve even if they be born and/or live in Nabi's (a.s) house (e.g. Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving son and Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving wife)
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We believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT).
Believers would believe even if they be born and/or live in Kafir's house (e.g. Momin Ale-Firawn and Wife of Firawn) whereas;
Disbelievers would disbelieve even if they be born and/or live in Nabi's (a.s) house (e.g. Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving son and Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving wife)
Did your divine imams announce to the public that they are divinely appointed imams so that public may know who is the current living imam and therefore follow him? Yes/No?
If yes give evidence. If no then there is no blame on public of any time.
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1. Ahmad ibn Idris from Muhamad ibn ‘Abdul-Jabbar from al-Hassan ibn ‘Ali from Tha’alabah ibn Maymoun from Zurarah ibn A’ayun that he said: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”
Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.
source: al-Kafi 1/65.
al-Majlisi said: Muwaththaq like the Sahih.
al-Behbudi said: Sahih.
Existence of Shias of Imam Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) indicates that Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) were known and therefore they had followers i.e. Shias.
2. al-Ash`ari al-Qummi says in Firaq al-Shia when discussing the followers of al-Baqir (rah):
[As for those who proved the Imamah for `Ali bin abi Talib, then Hassan, then Hussein, then `Ali bin al-Hussein, and afterwards they declared their belief in the Imamah of his son abu Ja`far Muhammad al-Baqir and remained on this state until his death, except a small group from them, because they heard a man called `Umar bin Rayah claim that he asked abu Ja`far about a matter and he gave him an answer, then he returned the next year and asked about the exact same matter but this time he received an answer that opposes the first answer he originally received. He told abu Ja`far: “This opposes the answer you gave me last year.” he replied: “Maybe our answer was out of Taqiyyah.” so he doubted his Imamah. He later met a man from the companions of abu Ja`far called Muhammad bin Qays, so he told him: “I had asked abu Ja`far about a matter so he answered me, then I asked him about it another year so he answered differently, I asked him why did he do this, he said he did it out of Taqiyyah, and Allah knows that I only asked when I was full of faith in him and sincerity and I wanted to practice upon his verdict, so he had no reason to do Taqiyyah with me.” ibn Qays said: “Maybe he did Taqiyyah because there was someone else in attendance?” He said: “Nobody attended our Majlis in both those times, but his answers were random and he didn’t memorize what he said the previous year so he can answer with it again.” So he disbelieved in his Imamah and said: “He who gives false verdicts cannot be an Imam in any way shape or form, and he who gives his verdicts as Taqiyyah in a way that does not please Allah cannot be an Imam, nor he who sits comfortably at home and keeps his door shut, the Imam must rise against oppression and order what is good and forbid what is evil.” This is why he leaned towards the opinion of the Batriyyah and a small group followed him on this.
sources:
-Bihar al-Anwar by al-Majlisi (73/33) (69/178).
-Tahtheeb al-Maqal fi Tanqeeh Kitab Rijal al-Najashi by Muhammad `Ali Abtahi (3/464
Why did `Umar bin Rayah reject the Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) if there had been no Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) in the first place?
`Umar bin Rayah first believing in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) then doubting & disbelieving in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir a.s (due to his logic) indicates that Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) was known.
However I would like to add a point. According to me Imams (a.s) would not have announced their Imamat publicly in such a way as to create Fitna and Fasad by arousing people to rebel against the rulers of their time.
Our Aimmah (a.s) observed Taqiyyah and instructed their Shias also to observe Taqiyyah by not rebelling against the rulers of their time and thus avoiding Fitna and Fasad in the Ummah caused by the rebellion.
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I am convinced by the answer given by my Imam (a.s)
Our duty is only to obey & follow our Aimmah (a.s)
Then you're not open to discussion, this is a pagan mentality that Muhammad (saw) had to deal with in Makkah. Islam teaches you to question things, that's how you know you're on the right path since you're actively seeking truths.
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Existence of Shias of Imam Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) indicates that Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) and Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s) were known and therefore they had followers i.e. Shias.
Why did `Umar bin Rayah reject the Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) if there had been no Imamat of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) in the first place?
`Umar bin Rayah first believing in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) then doubting & disbelieving in Imamah of Mohammed Baqir a.s (due to his logic) indicates that Imamah of Mohammed Baqir (a.s) was known.
However I would like to add a point. According to me Imams (a.s) would not have announced their Imamat publicly in such a way as to create Fitna and Fasad by arousing people to rebel against the rulers of their time.
Our Aimmah (a.s) observed Taqiyyah and instructed their Shias also to observe Taqiyyah by not rebelling against the rulers of their time and thus avoiding Fitna and Fasad in the Ummah caused by the rebellion.
I think you need to revise what is a "Shia" and what's the definition of "Imam". Nobody doubts the existence of Banu Hashim's Shia nor the Shia of bani Umayyah are `Abbasids. We're saying those Shia were NOT united upon one belief especially not that propagated today in the name of Twelvers. Similarly, Banu `Ali had many Imams, the household produced a good number of Imams some were contemporaries of each-other but this Taqiyyah/Infallibility business was not a belief they held.
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We believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT).
Believers would believe even if they be born and/or live in Kafir's house (e.g. Momin Ale-Firawn and Wife of Firawn) whereas;
Disbelievers would disbelieve even if they be born and/or live in Nabi's (a.s) house (e.g. Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving son and Nabi Nuh's (a.s) disbelieving wife)
How is that an answer to my question? Imam admitted he gave opposite answers, because he did not want people to believe and be guided. Since when a guide for believers suppose to misguide the believers? You shia never make any sense in your answer.
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Then you're not open to discussion, this is a pagan mentality that Muhammad (saw) had to deal with in Makkah. Islam teaches you to question things, that's how you know you're on the right path since you're actively seeking truths.
???
I said I am convinced by the answer given by the Imam (a.s) regarding Aimmah (a.s) giving different answers for the same question.
Islam teaches us to question things in order to gain knowledge and not for the sake of arguing, offending nor amusement.
Narrated Abu Musa:
The Prophet (ﷺ) was asked about things which he did not like, but when the questioners insisted, the Prophet got angry. He then said to the people, "Ask me anything you like." A man asked, "Who is my father?" The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "Your father is Hudhafa." Then another man got up and said, "Who is my father, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ?" He replied, "Your father is Salim, Maula (the freed slave) of Shaiba." So when `Umar saw that (the anger) on the face of the Prophet (ﷺ) he said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! We repent to Allah (Our offending you).
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 92
In-book reference : Book 3, Hadith 34
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 3, Hadith 92
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I think you need to revise what is a "Shia" and what's the definition of "Imam". Nobody doubts the existence of Banu Hashim's Shia nor the Shia of bani Umayyah are `Abbasids. We're saying those Shia were NOT united upon one belief especially not that propagated today in the name of Twelvers. Similarly, Banu `Ali had many Imams, the household produced a good number of Imams some were contemporaries of each-other but this Taqiyyah/Infallibility business was not a belief they held.
By Shia I meant such a person who has a leader to whom he attaches himself with regarding his religious and worldly matters/affairs.
By Imam I meant such a person whose orders are to be obeyed/followed.
Narrated Qais bin Abi Hazim:
Abu Bakr went to a lady from the Ahmas tribe called Zainab bint Al-Muhajir and found that she refused to speak. He asked, "Why does she not speak." The people said, "She has intended to perform Hajj without speaking." He said to her, "Speak, for it is illegal not to speak, as it is an action of the pre-islamic period of ignorance. So she spoke and said, "Who are you?" He said, "A man from the Emigrants." She asked, "Which Emigrants?" He replied, "From Quraish." She asked, "From what branch of Quraish are you?" He said, "You ask too many questions; I am Abu Bakr." She said, "How long shall we enjoy this good order (i.e. Islamic religion) which Allah has brought after the period of ignorance?" He said, "You will enjoy it as long as your Imams keep on abiding by its rules and regulations." She asked, "What are the Imams?" He said, "Were there not heads and chiefs of your nation who used to order the people and they used to obey them?" She said, "Yes." He said, "So they (i.e. the Imams) are those whom I meant."
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3834
In-book reference : Book 63, Hadith 60
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 175
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How is that an answer to my question? Imam admitted he gave opposite answers, because he did not want people to believe and be guided. Since when a guide for believers suppose to misguide the believers? You shia never make any sense in your answer.
I will once again repeat what I said earlier.
"We (i.e. Shi'as) believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT)."
To understand better what I mean by Permission of ALLAH (SWT), let me ask you a question.
ALLAH (SWT) says in HIS Book (i.e. Al-Quran) that HE has Power to guide everyone and yet we see that all people are not guided. Why is this the case?
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-An’am 6:149]
Say, "With Allah is the far-reaching argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all."
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [Yoonus 10:99]
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-Qasas 28:56]
Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.
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we are not discussing Allahs Will. It is about someone who suppose to guide prople, but instead he said he intentionally misguided people and didnt want people to believe and be guided. I know you are trying to defend your sect, but its clearly a pretty desperate attempt to defend someone who misguided people in the name of Allah.
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I will once again repeat what I said earlier.
"We (i.e. Shi'as) believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT)."
To understand better what I mean by Permission of ALLAH (SWT), let me ask you a question.
ALLAH (SWT) says in HIS Book (i.e. Al-Quran) that HE has Power to guide everyone and yet we see that all people are not guided. Why is this the case?
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-An’am 6:149]
Say, "With Allah is the far-reaching argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all."
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [Yoonus 10:99]
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-Qasas 28:56]
Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.
Its not about guidance but about performing the duties they were supposed to do.
Muhammad Sarwar: (Muhammad), if they turn away from your message, know that We have not sent you as their keeper. Your duty is only to deliver the message. When We grant mercy to the human being, he becomes joyous, but when he is afflicted by evil as a result of his own deeds, he proves to be ungrateful. (42:48)
Did they (your divine imams) deliver the message to public of their time?
Did they declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow?
Did they say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers?
Did they announce in public that recognise us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah?
If they did not then blame will not be on public. And none will go to hell bcoz of this reason aka imamah.
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we are not discussing Allahs Will. It is about someone who suppose to guide prople, but instead he said he intentionally misguided people and didnt want people to believe and be guided. I know you are trying to defend your sect, but its clearly a pretty desperate attempt to defend someone who misguided people in the name of Allah.
So its ALLAH'S (SWT) Will that not all people on earth be guided? Can you please enlighten me why is this so? Why does ALLAH (SWT) not will to guide whole humanity? If whole humanity gets guided then everyone would be saved and this world would became a lot better place to live.
we are not discussing Allahs Will. It is about someone who suppose to guide prople, but instead he said he intentionally misguided people and didnt want people to believe and be guided. I know you are trying to defend your sect, but its clearly a pretty desperate attempt to defend someone who misguided people in the name of Allah.
Misguide people?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to commit Shirk?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to stop offering Salat & giving Zakat?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) prohibit from fasting and going to Hajj?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to deny Prophethood of all the Prophets (a.s)?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) commanded to commit indecency & shameful acts?
If not then rest assured that they have not misguided anyone. They can only guide by the permission of ALLAH (SWT)
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Its not about guidance but about performing the duties they were supposed to do.
Muhammad Sarwar: (Muhammad), if they turn away from your message, know that We have not sent you as their keeper. Your duty is only to deliver the message. When We grant mercy to the human being, he becomes joyous, but when he is afflicted by evil as a result of his own deeds, he proves to be ungrateful. (42:48)
Did they (your divine imams) deliver the message to public of their time?
Did they declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow?
Did they say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers?
Did they announce in public that recognise us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah?
If they did not then blame will not be on public. And none will go to hell bcoz of this reason aka imamah.
According to us Shi'as:
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.
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According to us Shi'as:
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.
Really?
Kindly share a narration from your own sources, where 'Ali promoted any of the above points. He didn't even declare his own Imamah from those who allegedly beat him, and usurped it.
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Really?
Kindly share a narration from your own sources, where 'Ali promoted any of the above points. He didn't even declare his own Imamah from those who allegedly beat him, and usurped it.
I will be sharing those narrations in near future including about Imam Ali (a.s) not declaring his own Imamah.
I will be creating in near future a new topic in which I would be discussing Imamat according to al-Quran and authentic Hadiths. I have started working on the topic but as I am very busy and get less time for discussions and dialogues it would take some time. In that topic I would try to address all the questions raised by Ahlul Sunnah brothers regarding Shi'a concept of Imamah.
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According to us Shi'as:
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.
Then show us the narrations on public announcements by every single divine imam.
Its not a difficult task. And I have been asking this same from brother whoaretheshia since his day one on this forum but still no response.
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/msg20190/#new
He also used the same excuse that I am currently busy. I think he has no answer so is just running away.
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I will be sharing those narrations in near future including about Imam Ali (a.s) not declaring his own Imamah.
I will be creating in near future a new topic in which I would be discussing Imamat according to al-Quran and authentic Hadiths. I have started working on the topic but as I am very busy and get less time for discussions and dialogues it would take some time. In that topic I would try to address all the questions raised by Ahlul Sunnah brothers regarding Shi'a concept of Imamah.
There is no need to debate or discuss. If you really believe as you said that they did declare/anounce in public then just show us the narrations on their such public declaration.
I dont understand why you need time. If you think there are proofs then just show such reports, thats it. If no then accept that they did not declare. Thus imamah concept was no where at that time and its just a matter of fabrication and myths.
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So its ALLAH'S (SWT) Will that not all people on earth be guided? Can you please enlighten me why is this so? Why does ALLAH (SWT) not will to guide whole humanity? If whole humanity gets guided then everyone would be saved and this world would became a lot better place to live.
Misguide people?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to commit Shirk?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to stop offering Salat & giving Zakat?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) prohibit from fasting and going to Hajj?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to deny Prophethood of all the Prophets (a.s)?
- Did our Aimmah (a.s) commanded to commit indecency & shameful acts?
If not then rest assured that they have not misguided anyone. They can only guide by the permission of ALLAH (SWT)
What are you talking about? Salat, fasting, quran recitation etc. Imam gave commands which shia scholars said were wrong and opposite to what shia believe to be the truth. To defend the contradiction and imam's lies, shia scholars use taqiyya excuses. So imam instead of telling his followers to pray, fasting, recite quran etc correctly, many times he also told his other followers to pray, fast, recite quran etc incorrectly. Yes, he misguided many of his own followers and theres no amount of word playing can gloss over it.
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What are you talking about? Salat, fasting, quran recitation etc. Imam gave commands which shia scholars said were wrong and opposite to what shia believe to be the truth. To defend the contradiction and imam's lies, shia scholars use taqiyya excuses. So imam instead of telling his followers to pray, fasting, recite quran etc correctly, many times he also told his other followers to pray, fast, recite quran etc incorrectly. Yes, he misguided many of his own followers and theres no amount of word playing can gloss over it.
We can agree to disagree.
I believe our Aimmah (a.s) commanding their followers to offer Salat like Ahlul Sunnah or break fast with Ahlul Sunnah or recite al-Quran like Ahlul Sunnah under taqiyyah does not mean our Aimmah (a.s) deceived or misguided their followers. Ahlul Sunnah according to our Aimmah (a.s) are under the fold of Islam
If our Aimmah (a.s) commanded us Shi'as to follow the ways of Ahlul Sunnah under taqiyyah then we Shi'as would still be under the fold of Islam. The only difference between us Shi'as and Ahlul Sunnah would be that we Shi'as act according to the commands of our Aimmah (a.s) as they are our guides. Our Aimmah (a.s) are true inheritors of Prophet 's (s.a.w.w) knowledge.
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Then show us the narrations on public announcements by every single divine imam.
Its not a difficult task. And I have been asking this same from brother whoaretheshia since his day one on this forum but still no response.
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/msg20190/#new
He also used the same excuse that I am currently busy. I think he has no answer so is just running away.
What use of bringing those narrations if you would out-rightly reject them as concocted and fabrication made by the Shi'as?
For e.g. what is your view when we Shi'as present narration where it is narrated that Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Quran and presented it before the people but his (a.s) compilation of the Quran was rejected? If you would consider such narration to be weak and fabricated then what use of bringing such narrations as arguments against you?
So its better that I create a topic in which we could have discussion which would help us gain knowledge and better understanding of Imamah in the light of al-Quran and authentic Ahlul Sunnah hadiths. For the creation of such topic I need time as I am researching regarding the Imamah according to Ahlul Sunnah and Shi'as.
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What use of bringing those narrations if you would out-rightly reject them as concocted and fabrication made by the Shi'as?
For e.g. what is your view when we Shi'as present narration where it is narrated that Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Quran and presented it before the people but his (a.s) compilation of the Quran was rejected? If you would consider such narration to be weak and fabricated then what use of bringing such narrations as arguments against you?
So its better that I create a topic in which we could have discussion which would help us gain knowledge and better understanding of Imamah in the light of al-Quran and authentic Ahlul Sunnah hadiths. For the creation of such topic I need time as I am researching regarding the Imamah according to Ahlul Sunnah and Shi'as.
I will not reject those narrations if they would make sense and would answer what I had asked, regardless of their authenticity. I am just asking for one or two such narrations.
In case of compilation of Quran, I think you are talking about this event. Watch this video.
To me it dont make any sense. Forget about its authenticity.
You want to discuss Imamah in the light of al-Quran and authentic Ahlul Sunnah hadiths. But I am looking for shia ahadith for your own following claims, esp the second one. Just one to the point narration, no need of any long article.
According to us Shi'as:
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.
- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.
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I will not reject those narrations if they would make sense and would answer what I had asked, regardless of their authenticity. I am just asking for one or two such narrations.
The aftermath of Karbala and his Imamah:
...Around this time, the question of the right of succession between Ali ibn al-Husayn and Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah gained the most attention. Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah was a pious, brave man whom many considered him as their Imam. Other Shia sects said Zayn al-Abedin had the right to inherit the Imamah, for his father Husayn had designated him the next Imam. Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah said he was more worthy because he was the son of Ali. But Zayn al-Abidin replied to his uncle, Fear God and make no such claim. After the death of Ibn Zubayr, the governor of Medina, Zayn al-Abedin and Muhammad ibn Hanafiyyah agreed to go to Mecca and appeal to the Black Stone of the Kaaba to try to determine which one of them was the true successor. They went to the Kaaba, where the Black Stone was placed. Muhammad prayed for a sign but no answer came. Afterwards, Zayn al-Abedin prayed and the Black Stone became agitated and nearly fell off the wall; thus came the answer that Zayn-al-Abidin was the true Imam after Husayn, an answer to which Muhammad consented. After this settlement, Zayn al-Abedin returned to Medina and led a quiet life with a few companions who referred to him for answers to religious questions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_ibn_Husayn_Zayn_al-Abidin
In case of compilation of Quran, I think you are talking about this event. Watch this video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=35o0K9xFL7Q
According to us Shi'as, Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an and presented it but Imam's compiled Qur'an was rejected. After this incident it was the Will of GOD that Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled Qur'an was to stay with the Aimmah (a.s) and that it would be the last Imam (a.s) who would again present Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an publicly.
To me it dont make any sense. Forget about its authenticity.
If it does not make any sense to you then what use of bringing such narrations to you? Its waste of time.
If you reject Imam Ali Zayn ul abideen (a.s) and Hajr-e-Aswad incident and consider Imam Ali (a.s) compilation of al-Qur'an being rejected as fabrication then what use of bringing such narrations to you?
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According to us Shi'as, Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an and presented it but Imam's compiled Qur'an was rejected. After this incident it was the Will of GOD that Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled Qur'an was to stay with the Aimmah (a.s) and that it would be the last Imam (a.s) who would again present Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an publicly.
Ijtiba, who was the Qur'an presented to, and why was it rejected?
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Ijtiba, who was the Qur'an presented to, and why was it rejected?
When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) completed the Quran on cloth and put his (a.s.) seal on it, he brought it to the congregation of people in the Masjid of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). He (a.s.) announced to them in a loud voice,
"0 people! Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) till this day, I was busy in his shrouding and burial and in collecting the Quran. The Quran, which I have compiled, is in this cloth. There is no verse revealed by Allah to His Prophet (s.a.w.a.), except that I have collected it. There is no verse, which the Holy Prophet (s.a. w.a.) taught me its meaning or its interpretation, but it is in this Quran. I have completed this so that tomorrow you do not get an opportunity to say that we were unaware of it. On the day of Qiyamat, you should not get an opportunity to claim that I did not call you for my help, or remind you of the fulfillment of my rights over you, and that, I did not invite you to the first and the last from the Book of Allah. "
Umar rejected this by saying,
"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."
On hearing this, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) returned home.1
Sulaym reports that for some days after this incident, the people maintained their silence.
Reference:
1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186.
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If our Aimmah (a.s) commanded us Shi'as to follow the ways of Ahlul Sunnah under taqiyyah then we Shi'as would still be under the fold of Islam.
The discussion is not about if shia is under the fold of Islam or not. Its about a guide who told people to do something which is religiously incorrect and unlawful.
[/b] The only difference between us Shi'as and Ahlul Sunnah would be that we Shi'as act according to the commands of our Aimmah (a.s) as they are our guides.
Yeah, the unique twisted characteristic of a religious guide is to tell his followers to do something which is unlawful and haram 😂
Our Aimmah (as) are true inheritors of Prophet 's (s.a.w.w) knowledge.
Your version of imam is definitely not that. No Prophet since the first and the last ever told their followers to do things which they themselves considered unlawful. That only exist in shiaism 😆
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In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali – peace be upon him – that he said: The Messenger of Allah – peace be upon him – forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages.
Al-Tusi, in Al-Istibsar, when commenting on this hadith stated that, “This hadith is to be taken as taqiyya.”
Remember you said "we Shi'as act according to the commands of our Aimmah (a.s) as they are our guides"
Will you follow the command in which imam said it was halal or the command which imam said it was haram?
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Ijtaba, why did those people rejection 'Ali's compilation of the Qur'an, and presumably these people are the companions?
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When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) completed the Quran on cloth and put his (a.s.) seal on it, he brought it to the congregation of people in the Masjid of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). He (a.s.) announced to them in a loud voice,
"0 people! Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) till this day, I was busy in his shrouding and burial and in collecting the Quran. The Quran, which I have compiled, is in this cloth. There is no verse revealed by Allah to His Prophet (s.a.w.a.), except that I have collected it. There is no verse, which the Holy Prophet (s.a. w.a.) taught me its meaning or its interpretation, but it is in this Quran. I have completed this so that tomorrow you do not get an opportunity to say that we were unaware of it. On the day of Qiyamat, you should not get an opportunity to claim that I did not call you for my help, or remind you of the fulfillment of my rights over you, and that, I did not invite you to the first and the last from the Book of Allah. "
Umar rejected this by saying,
"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."
On hearing this, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) returned home.1
Sulaym reports that for some days after this incident, the people maintained their silence.
Reference:
1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186.
I was watching this youtube clip about the Islamic Museum in Najaf -
supposedly this Quran was written by Imam Ali (ra)...something doesn't make sense here; if we believe the Shia Text the Quran written by Imam Ali (ra) had unique features i.e. that it was written chronologically and had the tafasir of the verses alongside it; this was hidden and will return with Imam Mehdi.
This museum has a Quran written supposedly by Imam Ali (ra) and has none of those features and in fact accords with the Uthman's (ra) Rasm...there is also a hand written Quran by Imam Hassan (ra) in Isfahan, again no chronological verses no secret tafsir or anything of that sort.
Someone is lying/mistaken either those who say these are Quran written by the Imams (raa) or those who say it was written and then hidden away.
Interesting.
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When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) completed the Quran on cloth and put his (a.s.) seal on it, he brought it to the congregation of people in the Masjid of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). He (a.s.) announced to them in a loud voice,
"0 people! Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) till this day, I was busy in his shrouding and burial and in collecting the Quran. The Quran, which I have compiled, is in this cloth. There is no verse revealed by Allah to His Prophet (s.a.w.a.), except that I have collected it. There is no verse, which the Holy Prophet (s.a. w.a.) taught me its meaning or its interpretation, but it is in this Quran. I have completed this so that tomorrow you do not get an opportunity to say that we were unaware of it. On the day of Qiyamat, you should not get an opportunity to claim that I did not call you for my help, or remind you of the fulfillment of my rights over you, and that, I did not invite you to the first and the last from the Book of Allah. "
Umar rejected this by saying,
"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."
On hearing this, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) returned home.1
Sulaym reports that for some days after this incident, the people maintained their silence.
Reference:
1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186.
Ali RA then proceeded to help transmit the Hafs an Asim qiraat of the Quran; knowing that what he was transmitting was not what should’ve been transmitted.
This isn’t even mentioning the fact that there is another chain for the Quran; Ali to Husayn Ibn Ali to Zayn al Abideen to Al-Baqir to As-Sadiq to Hamza al-Zayaat. Note, it is significant that Kazim doesn’t narrate from as-Sadiq - instead it is Hamza al-Zayaat. Also key is that we find that Shias recite Hafs an Asim rather than this qiraa.
So Ali RA transmitted the wrong Quran as did Husayn, Zayn al Abideen, al-Baqir and As-Sadiq? The infallible guides knowingly misguiding the ummah yet again... Does this honestly not ring alarm bells for you brother?
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If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."
بارك الله فيك. You have hit the nail on the head. A Prophet is sent to be a Hujjah to his audience and to deliver Allah's message as it is. Otherwise, he has not put across Allah's hujjah across and therefore no one deserves hell fire! But never! Allah completed the deen through His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) & the Hujjah is on us to either believe or disbelieve. The so-called mushaf Fatimah is a fictional fantasy harbored by people with utter contempt of Allah's Book!
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The discussion is not about if shia is under the fold of Islam or not. Its about a guide who told people to do something which is religiously incorrect and unlawful.
Please show me where our Aimmah (a.s) told us "to do something which is religiously incorrect and unlawful."
Yeah, the unique twisted characteristic of a religious guide is to tell his followers to do something which is unlawful and haram 😂
Please provide references where our Aimmah (a.s) told his followers "to do something which is unlawful and haram."
Your version of imam is definitely not that. No Prophet since the first and the last ever told their followers to do things which they themselves considered unlawful. That only exist in shiaism 😆
Our Aimmah (a.s) are true inheritors of Prophet 's (s.a.w.w) knowledge.
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In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali – peace be upon him – that he said: The Messenger of Allah – peace be upon him – forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages.
Al-Tusi, in Al-Istibsar, when commenting on this hadith stated that, “This hadith is to be taken as taqiyya.”
Remember you said "we Shi'as act according to the commands of our Aimmah (a.s) as they are our guides"
Will you follow the command in which imam said it was halal or the command which imam said it was haram?
Where there are two hadiths which contradict one another then latter hadith would be followed according to our Aimmah (a.s) because latter abrogates former.
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Ijtaba, why did those people rejection 'Ali's compilation of the Qur'an, and presumably these people are the companions?
According to the hadith the reason given by Umar for rejecting Imam Ali's (a.s) compilation of Qur'an was:
"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."
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I was watching this youtube clip about the Islamic Museum in Najaf - www.youtube.com/watch?v=Toj-K2mqqjI
supposedly this Quran was written by Imam Ali (ra)...something doesn't make sense here; if we believe the Shia Text the Quran written by Imam Ali (ra) had unique features i.e. that it was written chronologically and had the tafasir of the verses alongside it; this was hidden and will return with Imam Mehdi.
This museum has a Quran written supposedly by Imam Ali (ra) and has none of those features and in fact accords with the Uthman's (ra) Rasm...there is also a hand written Quran by Imam Hassan (ra) in Isfahan, again no chronological verses no secret tafsir or anything of that sort.
Someone is lying/mistaken either those who say these are Quran written by the Imams (raa) or those who say it was written and then hidden away.
Interesting.
Do you believe that the Qur'an shown in the YouTube clip given by you is written by Imam Ali (a.s)? Also do you believe that Quran in Isfahan is hand written by Imam Hassan (a.s)?
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Ali RA then proceeded to help transmit the Hafs an Asim qiraat of the Quran; knowing that what he was transmitting was not what should’ve been transmitted.
Didn't understand what you are saying.
Are you saying Imam Ali (a.s) helped in transmitting Hafs an Asim Qiraat by being fully aware that he (a.s) should not have transmitted those Qiraat?
This isn’t even mentioning the fact that there is another chain for the Quran; Ali to Husayn Ibn Ali to Zayn al Abideen to Al-Baqir to As-Sadiq to Hamza al-Zayaat. Note, it is significant that Kazim doesn’t narrate from as-Sadiq - instead it is Hamza al-Zayaat. Also key is that we find that Shias recite Hafs an Asim rather than this qiraa.
What is authenticity of this chain according to Ahlul Sunnah? Do they believe it is authentic or fabricated by Shias?
So Ali RA transmitted the wrong Quran as did Husayn, Zayn al Abideen, al-Baqir and As-Sadiq? The infallible guides knowingly misguiding the ummah yet again... Does this honestly not ring alarm bells for you brother?
Your saying that the Qur'an which we (Sunnis & Shias) have today in our hands is wrong according to our Aimmah (a.s)?
Can you please provide evidence for this i.e. where Imam Ali (a.s), Imam Hussain (a.s) and Imam Zayn ul Abideen (a.s) said or thought that al-Quran which is in our hands is wrong