Contradictions of the Imams

[fgss]

I will once again repeat what I said earlier.

"We (i.e. Shi'as) believe our Aimmah (a.s) are guiding people by the Permission of ALLAH (SWT)."

To understand better what I mean by Permission of ALLAH (SWT), let me ask you a question.

ALLAH (SWT) says in HIS Book (i.e. Al-Quran) that HE has Power to guide everyone and yet we see that all people are not guided. Why is this the case?

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-An’am 6:149]
Say, "With Allah is the far-reaching argument. If He had willed, He would have guided you all."

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [Yoonus 10:99]
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel the people in order that they become believers?

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL [al-Qasas 28:56]
Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.

Its not about guidance but about performing the duties they were supposed to do.

Muhammad Sarwar: (Muhammad), if they turn away from your message, know that We have not sent you as their keeper. Your duty is only to deliver the message. When We grant mercy to the human being, he becomes joyous, but when he is afflicted by evil as a result of his own deeds, he proves to be ungrateful. (42:48)

Did they (your divine imams) deliver the message to public of their time?

Did they declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow?

Did they say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers?

Did they announce in public that recognise us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah?

If they did not then blame will not be on public. And none will go to hell bcoz of this reason aka imamah.

[Ijtaba]

we are not discussing Allahs Will. It is about someone who suppose to guide prople, but instead he said he intentionally misguided people and didnt want people to believe and be guided. I know you are trying to defend your sect, but its clearly a pretty desperate attempt to defend someone who misguided people in the name of Allah.

So its ALLAH'S (SWT) Will that not all people on earth be guided? Can you please enlighten me why is this so? Why does ALLAH (SWT) not will to guide whole humanity? If whole humanity gets guided then everyone would be saved and this world would became a lot better place to live.

we are not discussing Allahs Will. It is about someone who suppose to guide prople, but instead he said he intentionally misguided people and didnt want people to believe and be guided. I know you are trying to defend your sect, but its clearly a pretty desperate attempt to defend someone who misguided people in the name of Allah.

Misguide people?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to commit Shirk?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to stop offering Salat & giving Zakat?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) prohibit from fasting and going to Hajj?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to deny Prophethood of all the Prophets (a.s)?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) commanded to commit indecency & shameful acts?

If not then rest assured that they have not misguided anyone. They can only guide by the permission of ALLAH (SWT)

[Ijtaba]

Its not about guidance but about performing the duties they were supposed to do.

Muhammad Sarwar: (Muhammad), if they turn away from your message, know that We have not sent you as their keeper. Your duty is only to deliver the message. When We grant mercy to the human being, he becomes joyous, but when he is afflicted by evil as a result of his own deeds, he proves to be ungrateful. (42:48)

Did they (your divine imams) deliver the message to public of their time?

Did they declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow?

Did they say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers?

Did they announce in public that recognise us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah?

If they did not then blame will not be on public. And none will go to hell bcoz of this reason aka imamah.

According to us Shi'as:

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.

[Optimus Prime]

According to us Shi'as:

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.

Really?

Kindly share a narration from your own sources, where 'Ali promoted any of the above points. He didn't even declare his own Imamah from those who allegedly beat him, and usurped it.

[Ijtaba]

Really?

Kindly share a narration from your own sources, where 'Ali promoted any of the above points. He didn't even declare his own Imamah from those who allegedly beat him, and usurped it.

I will be sharing those narrations in near future including about Imam Ali (a.s) not declaring his own Imamah.

I will be creating in near future a new topic in which I would be discussing Imamat according to al-Quran and authentic Hadiths. I have started working on the topic but as I am very busy and get less time for discussions and dialogues it would take some time. In that topic I would try to address all the questions raised by Ahlul Sunnah brothers regarding Shi'a concept of Imamah.

[fgss]

According to us Shi'as:

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.

Then show us the narrations on  public announcements by every single divine imam.

Its not a difficult task. And I have been asking this same from brother whoaretheshia since his day one on this forum but still no response.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/msg20190/#new

He also used the same excuse that I am currently busy. I think he has no answer so is just running away.

[fgss]

I will be sharing those narrations in near future including about Imam Ali (a.s) not declaring his own Imamah.

I will be creating in near future a new topic in which I would be discussing Imamat according to al-Quran and authentic Hadiths. I have started working on the topic but as I am very busy and get less time for discussions and dialogues it would take some time. In that topic I would try to address all the questions raised by Ahlul Sunnah brothers regarding Shi'a concept of Imamah.

There is no need to debate or discuss. If you really believe as you said that they did declare/anounce in public then just show us the narrations on their such public declaration.

I dont understand why you need time. If you think there are proofs then just show such reports, thats it. If no then accept that they did not declare. Thus imamah concept was no where at that time and its just a matter of fabrication and myths.

[Hadrami]

So its ALLAH'S (SWT) Will that not all people on earth be guided? Can you please enlighten me why is this so? Why does ALLAH (SWT) not will to guide whole humanity? If whole humanity gets guided then everyone would be saved and this world would became a lot better place to live.

Misguide people?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to commit Shirk?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to stop offering Salat & giving Zakat?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) prohibit from fasting and going to Hajj?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) order to deny Prophethood of all the Prophets (a.s)?

- Did our Aimmah (a.s) commanded to commit indecency & shameful acts?

If not then rest assured that they have not misguided anyone. They can only guide by the permission of ALLAH (SWT)

What are you talking about? Salat, fasting, quran recitation etc. Imam gave commands which shia scholars said were wrong and opposite to what shia believe to be the truth. To defend the contradiction and imam's lies, shia scholars use taqiyya excuses. So imam instead of telling his followers to pray, fasting, recite quran etc correctly, many times he also told his other followers to pray, fast, recite quran etc incorrectly. Yes, he misguided many of his own followers and theres no amount of word playing can gloss over it.

[Ijtaba]

What are you talking about? Salat, fasting, quran recitation etc. Imam gave commands which shia scholars said were wrong and opposite to what shia believe to be the truth. To defend the contradiction and imam's lies, shia scholars use taqiyya excuses. So imam instead of telling his followers to pray, fasting, recite quran etc correctly, many times he also told his other followers to pray, fast, recite quran etc incorrectly. Yes, he misguided many of his own followers and theres no amount of word playing can gloss over it.

We can agree to disagree.

I believe our Aimmah (a.s) commanding their followers to offer Salat like Ahlul Sunnah or break fast with Ahlul Sunnah or recite al-Quran like Ahlul Sunnah under taqiyyah does not mean our Aimmah (a.s) deceived or misguided their followers. Ahlul Sunnah according to our Aimmah (a.s) are under the fold of Islam

If our Aimmah (a.s) commanded us Shi'as to follow the ways of Ahlul Sunnah under taqiyyah then we Shi'as would still be under the fold of Islam. The only difference between us Shi'as and Ahlul Sunnah would be that we Shi'as act according to the commands of our Aimmah (a.s) as they are our guides. Our Aimmah (a.s) are true inheritors of Prophet 's (s.a.w.w) knowledge.

[Ijtaba]

Then show us the narrations on  public announcements by every single divine imam.

Its not a difficult task. And I have been asking this same from brother whoaretheshia since his day one on this forum but still no response.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/msg20190/#new

He also used the same excuse that I am currently busy. I think he has no answer so is just running away.

What use of bringing those narrations if you would out-rightly reject them as concocted and fabrication made by the Shi'as?

For e.g. what is your view when we Shi'as present narration where it is narrated that Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Quran and presented it before the people but his (a.s) compilation of the Quran was rejected? If you would consider such narration to be weak and fabricated then what use of bringing such narrations as arguments against you?

So its better that I create a topic in which we could have discussion which would help us gain knowledge and better understanding of Imamah in the light of al-Quran and authentic Ahlul Sunnah hadiths. For the creation of such topic I need time as I am researching regarding the Imamah according to Ahlul Sunnah and Shi'as.

[fgss]

What use of bringing those narrations if you would out-rightly reject them as concocted and fabrication made by the Shi'as?

For e.g. what is your view when we Shi'as present narration where it is narrated that Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Quran and presented it before the people but his (a.s) compilation of the Quran was rejected? If you would consider such narration to be weak and fabricated then what use of bringing such narrations as arguments against you?

So its better that I create a topic in which we could have discussion which would help us gain knowledge and better understanding of Imamah in the light of al-Quran and authentic Ahlul Sunnah hadiths. For the creation of such topic I need time as I am researching regarding the Imamah according to Ahlul Sunnah and Shi'as.

I will not reject those narrations if they would make sense and would answer what I had asked, regardless of their authenticity. I am just asking for one or two such narrations.

In case of compilation of Quran, I think you are talking about this event. Watch this video.

To me it dont make any sense. Forget about its authenticity.

You want to discuss Imamah in the light of al-Quran and authentic Ahlul Sunnah hadiths. But I am looking for shia ahadith for your own following claims, esp the second one. Just one to the point narration, no need of any long article.

According to us Shi'as:

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did deliver the message (i.e. al-Quran) to public of their time.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did declare to the public that they are divinely appointed whom they are supposed to follow.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did say to the public that we are the hujjah of Allah on earth after messengers.

- Our Aimmah (a.s) did announce in public that recognize us otherwise you will die death of jahilliyah.

[Ijtaba]

I will not reject those narrations if they would make sense and would answer what I had asked, regardless of their authenticity. I am just asking for one or two such narrations.

The aftermath of Karbala and his Imamah:

...Around this time, the question of the right of succession between Ali ibn al-Husayn and Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah gained the most attention. Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah was a pious, brave man whom many considered him as their Imam. Other Shia sects said Zayn al-Abedin had the right to inherit the Imamah, for his father Husayn had designated him the next Imam. Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah said he was more worthy because he was the son of Ali. But Zayn al-Abidin replied to his uncle, Fear God and make no such claim. After the death of Ibn Zubayr, the governor of Medina, Zayn al-Abedin and Muhammad ibn Hanafiyyah agreed to go to Mecca and appeal to the Black Stone of the Kaaba to try to determine which one of them was the true successor. They went to the Kaaba, where the Black Stone was placed. Muhammad prayed for a sign but no answer came. Afterwards, Zayn al-Abedin prayed and the Black Stone became agitated and nearly fell off the wall; thus came the answer that Zayn-al-Abidin was the true Imam after Husayn, an answer to which Muhammad consented. After this settlement, Zayn al-Abedin returned to Medina and led a quiet life with a few companions who referred to him for answers to religious questions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_ibn_Husayn_Zayn_al-Abidin

In case of compilation of Quran, I think you are talking about this event. Watch this video.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=35o0K9xFL7Q

According to us Shi'as, Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an and presented it but Imam's compiled Qur'an was rejected. After this incident it was the Will of GOD that Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled Qur'an was to stay with the Aimmah (a.s) and that it would be the last Imam (a.s) who would again present Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an publicly.

To me it dont make any sense. Forget about its authenticity.

If it does not make any sense to you then what use of bringing such narrations to you? Its waste of time.

If you reject Imam Ali Zayn ul abideen (a.s) and Hajr-e-Aswad incident and consider Imam Ali (a.s) compilation of al-Qur'an being rejected as fabrication then what use of bringing such narrations to you?

[Optimus Prime]

According to us Shi'as, Imam Ali (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an and presented it but Imam's compiled Qur'an was rejected. After this incident it was the Will of GOD that Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled Qur'an was to stay with the Aimmah (a.s) and that it would be the last Imam (a.s) who would again present Imam Ali's (a.s) compiled al-Qur'an publicly.

Ijtiba, who was the Qur'an presented to, and why was it rejected?

[Ijtaba]

Ijtiba, who was the Qur'an presented to, and why was it rejected?

When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) completed the Quran on cloth and put his (a.s.) seal on it, he brought it to the congregation of people in the Masjid of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). He (a.s.) announced to them in a loud voice,

"0 people! Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) till this day, I was busy in his shrouding and burial and in collecting the Quran. The Quran, which I have compiled, is in this cloth. There is no verse revealed by Allah to His Prophet (s.a.w.a.), except that I have collected it. There is no verse, which the Holy Prophet (s.a. w.a.) taught me its meaning or its interpretation, but it is in this Quran. I have completed this so that tomorrow you do not get an opportunity to say that we were unaware of it. On the day of Qiyamat, you should not get an opportunity to claim that I did not call you for my help, or remind you of the fulfillment of my rights over you, and that, I did not invite you to the first and the last from the Book of Allah. "

Umar rejected this by saying,

"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."

On hearing this, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) returned home.1

Sulaym reports that for some days after this incident, the people maintained their silence.

Reference:
1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186.

[Hadrami]

If our Aimmah (a.s) commanded us Shi'as to follow the ways of Ahlul Sunnah under taqiyyah then we Shi'as would still be under the fold of Islam.

The discussion is not about if shia is under the fold of Islam or not. Its about a guide who told people to do something which is religiously incorrect and unlawful.

[/b] The only difference between us Shi'as and Ahlul Sunnah would be that we Shi'as act according to the commands of our Aimmah (a.s) as they are our guides.

Yeah, the unique twisted characteristic of a religious guide is to tell his followers to do something which is unlawful and haram 😂

Our Aimmah (as) are true inheritors of Prophet 's (s.a.w.w) knowledge.

Your version of imam is definitely not that. No Prophet since the first and the last ever told their followers to do things which they themselves considered unlawful. That only exist in shiaism 😆

[Hadrami]

In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali – peace be upon him – that he said: The Messenger of Allah – peace be upon him – forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages.

Al-Tusi, in Al-Istibsar, when commenting on this hadith stated that, “This hadith is to be taken as taqiyya.”

Remember you said "we Shi'as act according to the commands of our Aimmah (a.s) as they are our guides"

Will you follow the command in which imam said it was halal or the command which imam said it was haram?

[Optimus Prime]

Ijtaba, why did those people rejection 'Ali's compilation of the Qur'an, and presumably these people are the companions?

[glorfindel]

When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) completed the Quran on cloth and put his (a.s.) seal on it, he brought it to the congregation of people in the Masjid of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). He (a.s.) announced to them in a loud voice,

"0 people! Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) till this day, I was busy in his shrouding and burial and in collecting the Quran. The Quran, which I have compiled, is in this cloth. There is no verse revealed by Allah to His Prophet (s.a.w.a.), except that I have collected it. There is no verse, which the Holy Prophet (s.a. w.a.) taught me its meaning or its interpretation, but it is in this Quran. I have completed this so that tomorrow you do not get an opportunity to say that we were unaware of it. On the day of Qiyamat, you should not get an opportunity to claim that I did not call you for my help, or remind you of the fulfillment of my rights over you, and that, I did not invite you to the first and the last from the Book of Allah. "

Umar rejected this by saying,

"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."

On hearing this, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) returned home.1

Sulaym reports that for some days after this incident, the people maintained their silence.

Reference:
1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186.

I was watching this youtube clip about the Islamic Museum in Najaf -

 supposedly this Quran was written by Imam Ali (ra)...something doesn't make sense here;  if we believe the Shia Text the Quran written by Imam Ali (ra) had unique features i.e. that it was written chronologically and had the tafasir of the verses alongside it; this was hidden and will return with Imam Mehdi.

This museum has a Quran written supposedly by Imam Ali (ra) and has none of those features and in fact accords with the Uthman's (ra) Rasm...there is also a hand written Quran by Imam Hassan (ra) in Isfahan, again no chronological verses no secret tafsir or anything of that sort.

Someone is lying/mistaken either those who say these are Quran written by the Imams (raa) or those who say it was written and then hidden away.

Interesting.

[furhan]

When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) completed the Quran on cloth and put his (a.s.) seal on it, he brought it to the congregation of people in the Masjid of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.). He (a.s.) announced to them in a loud voice,

"0 people! Since the demise of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) till this day, I was busy in his shrouding and burial and in collecting the Quran. The Quran, which I have compiled, is in this cloth. There is no verse revealed by Allah to His Prophet (s.a.w.a.), except that I have collected it. There is no verse, which the Holy Prophet (s.a. w.a.) taught me its meaning or its interpretation, but it is in this Quran. I have completed this so that tomorrow you do not get an opportunity to say that we were unaware of it. On the day of Qiyamat, you should not get an opportunity to claim that I did not call you for my help, or remind you of the fulfillment of my rights over you, and that, I did not invite you to the first and the last from the Book of Allah. "

Umar rejected this by saying,

"The Quran, which is with us, is better that what you are inviting us towards."

On hearing this, Hazrat Ali (a.s.) returned home.1

Sulaym reports that for some days after this incident, the people maintained their silence.

Reference:
1 Tafseer'e Ayyashi, volume 2 page 66/67; Al Ikhtesas, page 186.

Ali RA then proceeded to help transmit the Hafs an Asim qiraat of the Quran; knowing that what he was transmitting was not what should’ve been transmitted.

This isn’t even mentioning the fact that there is another chain for the Quran; Ali to Husayn Ibn Ali to Zayn al Abideen to Al-Baqir to As-Sadiq to Hamza al-Zayaat. Note, it is significant that Kazim doesn’t narrate from as-Sadiq - instead it is Hamza al-Zayaat. Also key is that we find that Shias recite Hafs an Asim rather than this qiraa.

So Ali RA transmitted the wrong Quran as did Husayn, Zayn al Abideen, al-Baqir and As-Sadiq? The infallible guides knowingly misguiding the ummah yet again... Does this honestly not ring alarm bells for you brother?

[TURJUMAN]

If a prophet came to me and began giving contradicting rulings the whole time while claiming infallibility, I as a creation honored by God with intellect will say: "You sir, are a fraud."

بارك الله فيك. You have hit the nail on the head. A Prophet is sent to be a Hujjah to his audience and to deliver Allah's message as it is. Otherwise, he has not put across Allah's hujjah across and therefore no one deserves hell fire! But never! Allah completed the deen through His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) & the Hujjah is on us to either believe or disbelieve. The so-called mushaf Fatimah is a fictional fantasy harbored by people with utter contempt of Allah's Book!