Damascus Zaynab Shrine

[أبو ماريا المرزم]

Now, If you've followed up on Syria's turmoil, you would know that many of these foreign shia militants often use the Zaynab shrine as an excuse. Now, you and I both know it's a lord horseshit, but excuses will be excuses.

Now, my question goes as purported, should the Zaynab shrine in Damascus be demolished?
If so, why?

[Hani]

Sacred human life is being "demolished" in Syria, which is more serious than the demolition of the Kaabah itself, let alone a polytheistic pagan tomb.

[MuslimK]

Don't fall into their trap.

Like Hani said the human life is being destroyed there and that's worrying more than anything. May Allah defeat them and expose them further.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

The lives of the terrorists who threaten to kill the Shi'a are worthless.

[Hani]

Nobody supports filthy scum on this forum, the likes of ISIS and Qa`idah, anybody who does will be banned and should in fact be reported to local authorities.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

Doesn't need to be that type of scum to know why the Shi'a are concerned about this "revolution".

This is the leader of one of, what the West calls, "moderate groups":

https://youtu.be/nPLUhSy4vZ4

[Hani]

I'm not concerned with what the west believes, it's what we as Arab Muslims believe and what the Syrian people believe. Syrians saw a great chance to topple an oppressive demonic regime, they ended up being slaughtered and the longer this is taking the more of a mess it produces.

The difference between Ahlul-Sunnah and you Shias, is as follows:

The majority of Ahlul-Sunnah condemn Assad AND condemn other extremist or criminal groups who are Assad's opponents as well.

The Shias on the other hand, with a few exceptions, seems to follow the Iranian/Russian narrative, that Assad is a hero and everything against him as a scheme or propaganda.

Now what the Shia think doesn't matter much for the most part, because they're a tiny minority in the Arab world and a small minority in Syria itself. However, a ton of the armed groups in Syria are composed of recruited Afghans, Lebanese, Iraqis and Iranians who are loyal to Khaminai and that's a problem. For a country that barely has any Twelvers in it, there sure are a lot of Twelvers fighting there.

Hezb which were viewed as heroes by most Arab Muslims during the 2006 war, are now viewed as Iranian stooges and criminals, no better than ISIS.

Let me tell you how the other side views it, Russia and Iran are in Syria for the spreading of influence, oil pipe-line related reasons, naval bases etc... They do not care about liberating Palestine or the well-being and freedom of the Syrian people. Assad himself doesn't care if his country is destroyed or demolished, he followed the same tactics as Ghaddafi and Mubarak, which is to put the rest of the world between a choice of either himself or the Islamic-Terrorists. Assad succeeded in this due to foreign support and guidance, they overlooked those groups in Raqqah until it became scandalous that he had to make a public speech about it. They put all of their effort into bombing the FSA and similar parties then allowed terrorists to expand.

Terrorists were competing with moderate groups in rebel held areas, this produced a lot of issues and resulted in their weak situation today. ISIS then grew out of hand, which caused alarm in Europe and all neighboring countries, an international coalition began targeting them. Russia quickly used them as an excuse to enter the arena and solidify its position.

Hezb used multiple excuses to enter Syria, such as "holy-sights" and whatnot, not sure why they haven't entered Saudi Arabia then to protect their holy-sights that were demolished in Baqi`. Iran uses the usual brainwashing technique "Imperialism" "Zionism" etc... Notice Iran does not attempt any efforts to liberate the poor Muslims in the Caucasus, they're living conditions are just as bad if not worse than Syrians under the ruthless Russian occupation, yet they won't even condemn due to their alliance with Russia who slaughtered more Muslims than Israel and the US put together in Kyrgyzstan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan etc... In 1912, there were about 26,000 mosques in Central Asia. By 1941, there were just 1,000 thanks to Russian violence and policies against Islam.

We do not see Iran as caring about Palestine, they propagated that it was not even holy land, that Aqsa was in the sky and not this Umayyad mosque in Jerusalem. Iran has always been about slogans, "death to America" then they make deals with them regarding the Nuclear program, "Quds day" yet they celebrate the authors who say al-Aqsa in not sacred to Muslims, "Free Palestine" yet no finger is raised nor is an effort made, if they were to make half the effort they did in Syria or Yemen maybe Israel wouldn't be comfortable. We are a generation that grew up with "condemnations", all verbal objections and slogans, no value or quality.

You as Shia will most likely find them excuses, "Oh Iran did so much, they outdone themselves!" again that's your view. We view them as a political entity with its goals and interests in the region. Ideological Shia state, enmity towards Arabs generally, competition with Saudi for who gets to represent Islam and who is the top oil producing country. For us regular Muslims, we're outraged at both Saudi and Iran for their hypocrisy and unfaithfulness, again that's the regular Sunni, as for the Shia they're still miles behind, trying to make up excuses for the Iranian overlords.

I'll hand it to the Iranian Shia leaders though, definitely very intelligent in some of their political moves, great PR machines running in the background and better choice of allies than the Saudi numb-skulls.

As for the "Shia being concerned over this revolution", this is because instead of supporting it from the get-go and getting the matter resolved in a few months at most, they opposed it with military might, it dragged for many years and produced terrorism and sectarian extremism, so YES they should be worried, a lot of Syrians are gonna want revenge.

[MuslimK]

The lives of the terrorists who threaten to kill the Shi'a are worthless.

I see! so the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced and became refugees because they threatened to kill the Shia?

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

I'm not concerned with what the west believes, it's what we as Arab Muslims believe and what the Syrian people believe. Syrians saw a great chance to topple an oppressive demonic regime, they ended up being slaughtered and the longer this is taking the more of a mess it produces.

The difference between Ahlul-Sunnah and you Shias, is as follows:

The majority of Ahlul-Sunnah condemn Assad AND condemn other extremist or criminal groups who are Assad's opponents as well.

The Shias on the other hand, with a few exceptions, seems to follow the Iranian/Russian narrative, that Assad is a hero and everything against him as a scheme or propaganda.

Now what the Shia think doesn't matter much for the most part, because they're a tiny minority in the Arab world and a small minority in Syria itself. However, a ton of the armed groups in Syria are composed of recruited Afghans, Lebanese, Iraqis and Iranians who are loyal to Khaminai and that's a problem. For a country that barely has any Twelvers in it, there sure are a lot of Twelvers fighting there.

Hezb which were viewed as heroes by most Arab Muslims during the 2006 war, are now viewed as Iranian stooges and criminals, no better than ISIS.

Let me tell you how the other side views it, Russia and Iran are in Syria for the spreading of influence, oil pipe-line related reasons, naval bases etc... They do not care about liberating Palestine or the well-being and freedom of the Syrian people. Assad himself doesn't care if his country is destroyed or demolished, he followed the same tactics as Ghaddafi and Mubarak, which is to put the rest of the world between a choice of either himself or the Islamic-Terrorists. Assad succeeded in this due to foreign support and guidance, they overlooked those groups in Raqqah until it became scandalous that he had to make a public speech about it. They put all of their effort into bombing the FSA and similar parties then allowed terrorists to expand.

Terrorists were competing with moderate groups in rebel held areas, this produced a lot of issues and resulted in their weak situation today. ISIS then grew out of hand, which caused alarm in Europe and all neighboring countries, an international coalition began targeting them. Russia quickly used them as an excuse to enter the arena and solidify its position.

Hezb used multiple excuses to enter Syria, such as "holy-sights" and whatnot, not sure why they haven't entered Saudi Arabia then to protect their holy-sights that were demolished in Baqi`. Iran uses the usual brainwashing technique "Imperialism" "Zionism" etc... Notice Iran does not attempt any efforts to liberate the poor Muslims in the Caucasus, they're living conditions are just as bad if not worse than Syrians under the ruthless Russian occupation, yet they won't even condemn due to their alliance with Russia who slaughtered more Muslims than Israel and the US put together in Kyrgyzstan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan etc... In 1912, there were about 26,000 mosques in Central Asia. By 1941, there were just 1,000 thanks to Russian violence and policies against Islam.

We do not see Iran as caring about Palestine, they propagated that it was not even holy land, that Aqsa was in the sky and not this Umayyad mosque in Jerusalem. Iran has always been about slogans, "death to America" then they make deals with them regarding the Nuclear program, "Quds day" yet they celebrate the authors who say al-Aqsa in not sacred to Muslims, "Free Palestine" yet no finger is raised nor is an effort made, if they were to make half the effort they did in Syria or Yemen maybe Israel wouldn't be comfortable. We are a generation that grew up with "condemnations", all verbal objections and slogans, no value or quality.

You as Shia will most likely find them excuses, "Oh Iran did so much, they outdone themselves!" again that's your view. We view them as a political entity with its goals and interests in the region. Ideological Shia state, enmity towards Arabs generally, competition with Saudi for who gets to represent Islam and who is the top oil producing country. For us regular Muslims, we're outraged at both Saudi and Iran for their hypocrisy and unfaithfulness, again that's the regular Sunni, as for the Shia they're still miles behind, trying to make up excuses for the Iranian overlords.

I'll hand it to the Iranian Shia leaders though, definitely very intelligent in some of their political moves, great PR machines running in the background and better choice of allies than the Saudi numb-skulls.

As for the "Shia being concerned over this revolution", this is because instead of supporting it from the get-go and getting the matter resolved in a few months at most, they opposed it with military might, it dragged for many years and produced terrorism and sectarian extremism, so YES they should be worried, a lot of Syrians are gonna want revenge.

The way I see it is that most of the Ahlul Sunnah are anti-ISIS and anti-Al-Qaeda but pro-other factions that are considered moderate by them but in reality are a group of mercenaries and terrorists.

It's not me saying it's a scheme, it's proof backed up by leaked files from the CIA and other institutions. It's not like people just say things for no reason without legitimate proof, this whole Arab Spring thing is suspect even though some actually tyrannical governments were toppled.

Every country has the right to be backed up by its allies, if Syria's allies were Buddhists and not Twelvers the same thing would have happened. The reason why Assad actually went as far as asking for help from Iranian-backed groups is because those are his only allies and the only people he trusts. Dare I say he trusts Iran and Hezbollah more than his most loyal generals. They just happen to be Shi'i, and not only that they also have a reason to fight - the Shrine, the Shi'a who are being slaughtered such as last week over 100 dead including 40+ kids in a bus, and to stop terrorism from expanding to major Shi'i areas which has happened in Iraq and would have happened in South Lebanon had Hezbollah not intervened.

Look bro you accuse me if believing Assad propaganda but it seems like you are believeing anti-Assad propaganda. The fact is those FSA were terrorists and monsters from the beginning, and the conflict was sectarian from the beginning. Talking about slaughtering the Alawites, talking about destroying the Zaynab shrine, talking about Salafi Shaykhs on the Saudi payroll issuing fatwas to going to fight in Syria. This is a fact. There was no strong moderate opposition, what you had was some secular defectants from the Syrian Army.

Russian oppression of Muslims is well recorded, but most of that was when the communist Soviets were in charge. They were anti-religion as a whole. But there is no doubt that even after the Soviet Union collapsed Russia had some oppressive policies. And Iran should condemn that as well. I am objective.

As for Jerusalem not being holy, you are extremely wrong my friend. The Shi'a have differed whether the word "Al-Aqsa" can be attributed to Baytul Maqdis as some have claimed "Al-Aqsa" is a different Mosque that's not on Earth. But there is no doubt in the Holiness of Baytul Maqdis as it is a Grand Mosque and our Fuqaha have respected it throughout history and said that its prayer counts as 'X' amount of prayer in another place.

Read this:

http://hajrnet.net/hajrvb/showthread.php?t=403016824

[Sheikh]

What I find interesting is how the Shias hold their holy sites to be holy in themselves, as in the actual building. It seems to be like it is a form of shirk. In Islam, even the Kaaba is not holy, it's just a bunch of bricks that can be rebuilt.  The spot on earth where it is built is holy, but not because of any sacred dirt or whatever, it is holy because Allah (swt) made it a holy place of prayer. But the way the Shias talk about the shrines, it's as if they think the bricks and wood are holy objects.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

The lives of the terrorists who threaten to kill the Shi'a are worthless.

I see! so the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced and became refugees because they threatened to kill the Shia?

Naa that's the result of war. In this day and age the weapons are bound to cause considerable damage.

[Hani]

((The way I see it is that most of the Ahlul Sunnah are anti-ISIS and anti-Al-Qaeda but pro-other factions that are considered moderate by them but in reality are a group of mercenaries and terrorists.))


((the Shi'a who are being slaughtered such as last week over 100 dead including 40+ kids in a bus, and to stop terrorism from expanding to major Shi'i areas which has happened in Iraq and would have happened in South Lebanon had Hezbollah not intervened.))

Even if they're pro-other movements, they won't support them in any evil actions, such movements would lose Sunni support as a result of ISIS-like behavior.

The whole thing wasn't violent to begin with according to all observers, armed movements began after violent crackdowns, arrests and murders. The armed movements were not formed until quite a while later and many of their members wanted to avenge killings and arrests from their hometowns and villages. YOU CANNOT BLAME IT ON THEM.


Read the damn timelines, only the timeline will be the judge between me and you, not my subjective opinion or yours:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January%E2%80%93April_2011)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(May%E2%80%93August_2011)


Just for the love of God, go through it and tell me is the regime excused in their actions? The thing started in January 2011, daily killings and arrests (being killed is more merciful than being arrested by his regime), then it went on for months until the beginning of August when some soldiers and officers defected and announced what's called "The Free Syrian Army". The ISIS business was way later.


You talk about a bus explosion, tell me where are the Shia massacres in Syria? When did that happen? After what? Whole battalions of heavily-armed zealous Shia militiamen were shipped by Iran into Syria to kill Syrians, extremist or not, they're still Syrian and it's their country, they can do whatever they want! YES, every country has the freedom to seek help from allies, yet it's immoral, criminal and inhumane for a regime to invite sectarian hired killers to murder its own people because they disapprove of it! That's like saying Hitler has the right to gas his own people and ask for support on top of it.


The regime, it was sectarian to begin with, "Salafism" was banned in Syria, at one point you couldn't carry a Qur'an, Alawte officers were all mainly in charge of all key positions, no one could even criticize Alawite creed etc... It was a failed dictatorship from the get-go. Unless he stops fooling around and honestly announces that this is no longer the Syrian Arab republic but the Syrian Assad Kingdom.


I'm not saying FSA are clean people, or moral, or pious, I'm saying the more time Bashar and his allies spent killing people, the longer it dragged, the more crazy vengeful and sectarian individuals it produced. Syrian people are peaceful people by nature, this whole thing wouldn't have happened if there was a respectable and peaceful resignation. What happened is that he killed them as reported and observed by ALL international organisations then after a while they began fighting back and now it's out of control.


((It's not me saying it's a scheme, it's proof backed up by leaked files from the CIA and other institutions. It's not like people just say things for no reason without legitimate proof, this whole Arab Spring thing is suspect even though some actually tyrannical governments were toppled.))


As for leaked documents, nobody builds their political analysis on dubious sources, we all read things that are clear and objective, if you wish to utilize wiki-leaks, CIA leaks and declassified reports, there's a lot of material against Iran, Hezb, Syria, Russia etc...


Anyone can claim anything based on those reports, we can say Khomayni was an American seed planted to create Sunni/Shia conflict based on declassified CIA documents:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khomeini-jimmy-carter-administration-iran-revolution


Or that Iran is supplying new forms of suicide vests for al-Qaida to the extent where Iran itself realized these reports were not in their favor, so they did the following:  Iran's foreign minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, also joined the fray by describing the new release as "suspicious".


If a leak exposes the US it is solid evidence, if it exposes Iran it becomes "suspicious". That's the dumb mentality we grew up with in Lebanon. Dumb conspiracy theories and double standards.


As for the Arab spring, Iran and Hezb themselves supported and backed it, recall Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, he himself said "Don't believe them when they say it's an American plot".


"Sayyed Nasrallah to Arabs: Your spring has just started..Nothing will stop it…No one will take you to another spring..You shall triumph and we shall triumph God willing"
"He added that it was irrational to say that these revolutions were cooked in the US kitchens"
http://archive.almanar.com.lb/english/article.php?id=6713



"Hizb Allah’s stance with respect to the ongoing protest movements in the Middle East has been one of unequivocal support. "
https://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/hizb-allah%E2%80%99s-position-on-the-arab-spring



"The party's image has also been dented given its support for the other revolutions shaking the Arab world, including Tunisia, Egypt and Libya, but not Syria."
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/hezbollah-edge-face-syria-revolt


You see in their childish media outlets, if it serves Iran's interests then it's good, if it opposes them then it becomes Zionist and imperialist. Dumb conspiracy theories and double standards.


((Russian oppression of Muslims is well recorded, but most of that was when the communist Soviets were in charge. They were anti-religion as a whole. But there is no doubt that even after the Soviet Union collapsed Russia had some oppressive policies. And Iran should condemn that as well. I am objective.))

It's the same BS regime and the same BS mentality, the Muslim lands under Russian and Chinese hegemony are in the worst shape. I do not exaggerate if I told you that Israeli occupation is a LOT more merciful than how Chinese, Russian and Burmese treat their Muslims.

((As for Jerusalem not being holy, you are extremely wrong my friend. The Shi'a have differed whether the word "Al-Aqsa" can be attributed to Baytul Maqdis as some have claimed "Al-Aqsa" is a different Mosque that's not on Earth.))

I'm glad it's a disputed matter, I saw a couple of articles online like these and assumed the Shia had consensus on it being in the sky after reading Ja`far Murtada al-`Amili's book "Sahih Sirat-ul-Nabi".

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

((The way I see it is that most of the Ahlul Sunnah are anti-ISIS and anti-Al-Qaeda but pro-other factions that are considered moderate by them but in reality are a group of mercenaries and terrorists.))


((the Shi'a who are being slaughtered such as last week over 100 dead including 40+ kids in a bus, and to stop terrorism from expanding to major Shi'i areas which has happened in Iraq and would have happened in South Lebanon had Hezbollah not intervened.))

Even if they're pro-other movements, they won't support them in any evil actions, such movements would lose Sunni support as a result of ISIS-like behavior.

The whole thing wasn't violent to begin with according to all observers, armed movements began after violent crackdowns, arrests and murders. The armed movements were not formed until quite a while later and many of their members wanted to avenge killings and arrests from their hometowns and villages. YOU CANNOT BLAME IT ON THEM.


Read the damn timelines, only the timeline will be the judge between me and you, not my subjective opinion or yours:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January%E2%80%93April_2011)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(May%E2%80%93August_2011)


Just for the love of God, go through it and tell me is the regime excused in their actions? The thing started in January 2011, daily killings and arrests (being killed is more merciful than being arrested by his regime), then it went on for months until the beginning of August when some soldiers and officers defected and announced what's called "The Free Syrian Army". The ISIS business was way later.


You talk about a bus explosion, tell me where are the Shia massacres in Syria? When did that happen? After what? Whole battalions of heavily-armed zealous Shia militiamen were shipped by Iran into Syria to kill Syrians, extremist or not, they're still Syrian and it's their country, they can do whatever they want! YES, every country has the freedom to seek help from allies, yet it's immoral, criminal and inhumane for a regime to invite sectarian hired killers to murder its own people because they disapprove of it! That's like saying Hitler has the right to gas his own people and ask for support on top of it.


The regime, it was sectarian to begin with, "Salafism" was banned in Syria, at one point you couldn't carry a Qur'an, Alawte officers were all mainly in charge of all key positions, no one could even criticize Alawite creed etc... It was a failed dictatorship from the get-go. Unless he stops fooling around and honestly announces that this is no longer the Syrian Arab republic but the Syrian Assad Kingdom.


I'm not saying FSA are clean people, or moral, or pious, I'm saying the more time Bashar and his allies spent killing people, the longer it dragged, the more crazy vengeful and sectarian individuals it produced. Syrian people are peaceful people by nature, this whole thing wouldn't have happened if there was a respectable and peaceful resignation. What happened is that he killed them as reported and observed by ALL international organisations then after a while they began fighting back and now it's out of control.


((It's not me saying it's a scheme, it's proof backed up by leaked files from the CIA and other institutions. It's not like people just say things for no reason without legitimate proof, this whole Arab Spring thing is suspect even though some actually tyrannical governments were toppled.))


As for leaked documents, nobody builds their political analysis on dubious sources, we all read things that are clear and objective, if you wish to utilize wiki-leaks, CIA leaks and declassified reports, there's a lot of material against Iran, Hezb, Syria, Russia etc...


Anyone can claim anything based on those reports, we can say Khomayni was an American seed planted to create Sunni/Shia conflict based on declassified CIA documents:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khomeini-jimmy-carter-administration-iran-revolution


Or that Iran is supplying new forms of suicide vests for al-Qaida to the extent where Iran itself realized these reports were not in their favor, so they did the following:  Iran's foreign minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, also joined the fray by describing the new release as "suspicious".


If a leak exposes the US it is solid evidence, if it exposes Iran it becomes "suspicious". That's the dumb mentality we grew up with in Lebanon. Dumb conspiracy theories and double standards.


As for the Arab spring, Iran and Hezb themselves supported and backed it, recall Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, he himself said "Don't believe them when they say it's an American plot".


"Sayyed Nasrallah to Arabs: Your spring has just started..Nothing will stop it…No one will take you to another spring..You shall triumph and we shall triumph God willing"
"He added that it was irrational to say that these revolutions were cooked in the US kitchens"
http://archive.almanar.com.lb/english/article.php?id=6713



"Hizb Allah’s stance with respect to the ongoing protest movements in the Middle East has been one of unequivocal support. "
https://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/hizb-allah%E2%80%99s-position-on-the-arab-spring



"The party's image has also been dented given its support for the other revolutions shaking the Arab world, including Tunisia, Egypt and Libya, but not Syria."
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/hezbollah-edge-face-syria-revolt


You see in their childish media outlets, if it serves Iran's interests then it's good, if it opposes them then it becomes Zionist and imperialist. Dumb conspiracy theories and double standards.


((Russian oppression of Muslims is well recorded, but most of that was when the communist Soviets were in charge. They were anti-religion as a whole. But there is no doubt that even after the Soviet Union collapsed Russia had some oppressive policies. And Iran should condemn that as well. I am objective.))

It's the same BS regime and the same BS mentality, the Muslim lands under Russian and Chinese hegemony are in the worst shape. I do not exaggerate if I told you that Israeli occupation is a LOT more merciful than how Chinese, Russian and Burmese treat their Muslims.

((As for Jerusalem not being holy, you are extremely wrong my friend. The Shi'a have differed whether the word "Al-Aqsa" can be attributed to Baytul Maqdis as some have claimed "Al-Aqsa" is a different Mosque that's not on Earth.))

I'm glad it's a disputed matter, I saw a couple of articles online like these and assumed the Shia had consensus on it being in the sky after reading Ja`far Murtada al-`Amili's book "Sahih Sirat-ul-Nabi".

No country is excused for using excessive force against protesters. And Iran's foreign minister has admitted, "mistakes were made in the beginning". HOWEVER, what your link failed to provide is that terrorist attacks and attacks on army/police were happening since the BEGINNING of the uprising, here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Damascus_bombings

As for foreign support, how about we speak out the foreign support to the rebels which FAR OUTWEIGHS the support given to Bashar Al-Assad?

This is 2012: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/23/syria-foreign-fighters-joining-war

This is 2013:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25460397

And this is an overview:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_fighters_in_the_Syrian_and_Iraqi_Civil_Wars

Now this is not considering the funding and training that was done by Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, USA, Britain, France and others. These are the facts. Strong Shi'a intervention came when Sayyidah Zaynab was under threat, before that Shi'a intervention was minimal and mainly Hezbollah and Iran were providing logistics.

As for Khomeini being a CIA agent, that's a huge joke. No one has challenged American interests as much as Khomeini has, ever. In fact, this allegation was refuted on ShiaChat:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235044566-wikileaks-reveals-ussayed-khomeini-links/?do=findComment&comment=2983921

And even if we say, let's disregard the CIA documents. How about we focus on what Western governments say publicly that they want to topple the "regime" and that they support the "moderate rebels". How about that?

As for those revolutions, they were all legitimate (however Libyan revolution was hijacked by NATO, Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood). The Syrian revolution was not legitimate, and the reason was that it was sectarian. When it is sectarian it loses all legitimacy.

I agree about the treatment of Russia and the other two Communist states towards Muslims and Iran should be more vocal about it in my opinion, even if it is violence towards Salafis then it should be condemned. Chechnya is however much better nowadays in terms of approach to overall Muslims (they have autonomy, Mosques etc...) but their treatment of Salafis is disgusting.

[Hani]

READ THE TIMELINES! There's all sorts of articles we can throw around, all of it doesn't matter, read the raw facts without the analysis by journalists. I gave you the time-lines, read them ALL, not just 2011, go further.

You're saying "from the beginning", your two bombs are from 23rd of DECEMBER 2011! This is NOT the beginning, this was after hundreds if not thousands were killed and arrested by the regime.

((As for foreign support, how about we speak out the foreign support to the rebels which FAR OUTWEIGHS the support given to Bashar Al-Assad? ))

Before the 2011 revolution, Syria's Assad and Iraq's Maliki were enemies, each government was sending radicalized elements back and forth through the border and accusing eachother. Let me give you a sample of what was happening:

"Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said most foreign terrorists operating in Iraq infiltrate through the Syrian border, a charge Syrian President Bashar al-Assad denies as tensions between Baghdad and Damascus showed no signs of easing"
http://www.france24.com/en/20090901-maliki-blames-syria-attacks-assad-denies-claim-

"Iraq asked Syria's Assad to stop aiding 'jihadists': Former official"
"The alleged support and training for the militants took place in Syria and was carried out by government security forces who reportedly wanted to keep American troops busy fighting in Iraq following the 2003 US-led invasion of the country."
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-asked-syrias-assad-not-aid-jihadists-former-official-1553468312

"Maliki also insisted that Damascus "expel the terrorists, Baathists and Takfiris (extremists) who take Syria as a base to launch criminal activity inside Iraq" and said without that there would be no progress."
http://archives.gdnonline.com/NewsDetails.aspx?date=04/07/2015&storyid=258714

Foreign fighters were there from the beginning. In Fact the battle retake Aleppo by regime forces, most fighters were foreign:

"As the most intensive air bombardment of the war has rained down on opposition-held east Aleppo this week, an army of some 6,000 pro-government fighters has gathered on its outskirts for what they plan will be an imminent, decisive advance.Among those poised to attack are hundreds of Syrian troops who have eyed the city from distant fixed positions since it was seized by Syrian rebels in mid-2012. But in far greater numbers are an estimated 5,000 foreign fighters who will play a defining role in the battle – and take a lead stake in what emerges from the ruins."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/29/aleppo-attack-foreign-syrian-fighters-plan-shia-islamic

Then you provide three links saying foreign fighters joined the rebels, well of course they did, most of ISIS is not Syrian. One article from Sep 2012, one from Dec 2013, VERY LATE. How does this give Assad an excuse to kill his own people though? Barrel bombs? In what religion and in what moral code is this acceptable? Most of the opposition is Syrian, if elements from Bosnia or Chechnya sneak through the border now you use that as an excuse to de-legitimize a popular movement!?

Secondly, the support Assad gets far outweighs that of rebels, Assad received entire trained battalions, armies, Russian and Iranian aerial support, radars, intelligence info etc... You're comparing this to rebel groups seriously? Rebels are being pounded 24/7 by Assad's party, how are they "superior" in weaponry, training and numbers exactly? Bro have you ever met Syrians in your life? The human species known as Syrians by their vast majority oppose and detest Assad, there's a ton of them in Lebanon, Arabia and the rest of the world at this point, even if a foreign rebel came and helped them defend themselves against a violent dictator that's not the same as a regime hiring foreigners to suppress its own people.

You reject Khomayni being a spy, well that's "leaks" and there's a ton more leaks about Iranian deals with the US and the like. I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying never rely on "leaks" to formulate your opinion. Of course, according to the Hezb, all revolutions were great and blessed except Syria, you just demonstrated it yourself by using their same rhetoric.

((How about we focus on what Western governments say publicly that they want to topple the "regime" and that they support the "moderate rebels". How about that? ))

I don't care whether western Govs liked him or not or whether they supported him or not, I cared about the Syrians who suffered against him. Heck, I should know, Lebanon was under Syrian occupation for the longest time and we rebelled!

Again, forget about all the non-sense and read the time-lines I sent you, when you finish 2011 start reading the timeline of 2012 and so on... You'll know if Assad is the hero or the criminal, just throwing random articles left and right is not a solution, read the unbiased reports and make your OWN conclusion.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

I will respond to this later insha Allah

[Hani]

So as to not go off topic and waste time with Iran and wikileaks.

The Syrian revolution is split into TWO major components:

A- Those that did daily protests and filled the squares and towns, they number by hundreds of thousands if not a couple of millions and the entire world witnessed them on TV daily in many Syrian towns and cities. These people are mainly Syrians with little to no foreign contribution.

B- Those who later took up arms and challenged the regime militarily after crackdowns and violence, those are a mix of Syrians and non-Syrians. They number at tens of thousands and are distributed all over Syria's armed opposition groups. A chunk of them don't even represent what the Syrians want or desire such as radical groups and terrorists.

To this day, most people Assad killed are from the first group 'A' by consensus of all human-rights and observation groups. This first group 'A' was targeted and violently suppressed or massacred, a few months later the armed groups 'B' begin to slowly form and organize. Assad quickly shifts to using radical elements from the second group 'B' as an excuse to continue slaughtering people from the first group 'A' and taking out all major opposition figures. Any city which harbored or embraced any individuals from group 'B' was punished by starvation, disease, chemicals, bombardment and acts of revenge when the Syrian army would conquer (examples are many, Halab, Hums, Dara`ah, Reef-Dimashq etc...)

This is unfair and cruel!

[Rationalist]

As for Khomeini being a CIA agent, that's a huge joke. No one has challenged American interests as much as Khomeini has, ever. In fact, this allegation was refuted on ShiaChat:

Yes it is hard to prove. The 12er Shia convert Sean Stone believes it, but even his evidence is not backed.
On the other hand, there was a contra affair where billion dollar worth of spare parts were delivered by Israel during the Iran and Iraq war. Also, the hostage crises also has its mystery. Regan made agreements with Khomeini on when the hostages can be released.

[Rationalist]

To be honest Syria has nothing do with the Sunni and Shia conflict. Sadly, its being pushed into that direction, and it will get worst if Assad is replaced.

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

READ THE TIMELINES! There's all sorts of articles we can throw around, all of it doesn't matter, read the raw facts without the analysis by journalists. I gave you the time-lines, read them ALL, not just 2011, go further.

You're saying "from the beginning", your two bombs are from 23rd of DECEMBER 2011! This is NOT the beginning, this was after hundreds if not thousands were killed and arrested by the regime.

((As for foreign support, how about we speak out the foreign support to the rebels which FAR OUTWEIGHS the support given to Bashar Al-Assad? ))

Before the 2011 revolution, Syria's Assad and Iraq's Maliki were enemies, each government was sending radicalized elements back and forth through the border and accusing eachother. Let me give you a sample of what was happening:

"Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said most foreign terrorists operating in Iraq infiltrate through the Syrian border, a charge Syrian President Bashar al-Assad denies as tensions between Baghdad and Damascus showed no signs of easing"
http://www.france24.com/en/20090901-maliki-blames-syria-attacks-assad-denies-claim-

"Iraq asked Syria's Assad to stop aiding 'jihadists': Former official"
"The alleged support and training for the militants took place in Syria and was carried out by government security forces who reportedly wanted to keep American troops busy fighting in Iraq following the 2003 US-led invasion of the country."
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-asked-syrias-assad-not-aid-jihadists-former-official-1553468312

"Maliki also insisted that Damascus "expel the terrorists, Baathists and Takfiris (extremists) who take Syria as a base to launch criminal activity inside Iraq" and said without that there would be no progress."
http://archives.gdnonline.com/NewsDetails.aspx?date=04/07/2015&storyid=258714

Foreign fighters were there from the beginning. In Fact the battle retake Aleppo by regime forces, most fighters were foreign:

"As the most intensive air bombardment of the war has rained down on opposition-held east Aleppo this week, an army of some 6,000 pro-government fighters has gathered on its outskirts for what they plan will be an imminent, decisive advance.Among those poised to attack are hundreds of Syrian troops who have eyed the city from distant fixed positions since it was seized by Syrian rebels in mid-2012. But in far greater numbers are an estimated 5,000 foreign fighters who will play a defining role in the battle – and take a lead stake in what emerges from the ruins."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/29/aleppo-attack-foreign-syrian-fighters-plan-shia-islamic

Then you provide three links saying foreign fighters joined the rebels, well of course they did, most of ISIS is not Syrian. One article from Sep 2012, one from Dec 2013, VERY LATE. How does this give Assad an excuse to kill his own people though? Barrel bombs? In what religion and in what moral code is this acceptable? Most of the opposition is Syrian, if elements from Bosnia or Chechnya sneak through the border now you use that as an excuse to de-legitimize a popular movement!?

Secondly, the support Assad gets far outweighs that of rebels, Assad received entire trained battalions, armies, Russian and Iranian aerial support, radars, intelligence info etc... You're comparing this to rebel groups seriously? Rebels are being pounded 24/7 by Assad's party, how are they "superior" in weaponry, training and numbers exactly? Bro have you ever met Syrians in your life? The human species known as Syrians by their vast majority oppose and detest Assad, there's a ton of them in Lebanon, Arabia and the rest of the world at this point, even if a foreign rebel came and helped them defend themselves against a violent dictator that's not the same as a regime hiring foreigners to suppress its own people.

You reject Khomayni being a spy, well that's "leaks" and there's a ton more leaks about Iranian deals with the US and the like. I'm not saying it's true, I'm saying never rely on "leaks" to formulate your opinion. Of course, according to the Hezb, all revolutions were great and blessed except Syria, you just demonstrated it yourself by using their same rhetoric.

((How about we focus on what Western governments say publicly that they want to topple the "regime" and that they support the "moderate rebels". How about that? ))

I don't care whether western Govs liked him or not or whether they supported him or not, I cared about the Syrians who suffered against him. Heck, I should know, Lebanon was under Syrian occupation for the longest time and we rebelled!

Again, forget about all the non-sense and read the time-lines I sent you, when you finish 2011 start reading the timeline of 2012 and so on... You'll know if Assad is the hero or the criminal, just throwing random articles left and right is not a solution, read the unbiased reports and make your OWN conclusion.

1) There were takfiri and sectarian elements from the beginning. Yes there were peaceful protesters but the fact is there was a lot of sectarianism in fact they were writing on the Sayyedah Zaynab shrine "راح اتروحي مع بشار" (you will go with Bashar). However I agree with you mistakes were made in the beginning and Assad used excessive force.

2) HOWEVER, when the real conflict violent started that's when it was sectarian since the beginning. You had people like Adnan Al-Arour (Shaykh Al-Thawra), Al-Urayfi and other Salafi preachers call for "jihad against the Alawi nidham". And like my link proved, there was bombings in Damascus that same year, in December. A few months after the people took up arms.

3) Most of Assad's Army is Syrian. You have the SDF and the Tiger Forces and the 4th Mechanized division. That's the bulk of the fighting force. Yes you have Afghanis, Iranians and Iraqis, alongside Hezbollah, and Russian aerial support, but that doesn't compare to THOUSANDS coming from over 90 countries (!) all to lead "jihad against the kafir rawafidh" as they say. Furthermore, even if we do accept that it is a popular movement, why on Earth is AL-NUSRA (Al-Qaeda) the forefront of the opposition??? Why do they lead the largest rebel coalition in Idlib? Why does Ahrar Al-Sham (another anti-Shi'i genocidary group) call them brothers? The movement right now is Salafi, sectarian, anti-Shi'a to the core. Even if we accept that it was a peaceful movement before, we can't accept that now.

[MuslimK]

"sectarian elements from the beginning" You mean the Hizbullah Militia who were in Syria before the uprising? And just because there are sectarian and takfiri elements among opposition that justifies the killings of hundreds of thousands of Syrians and destruction of their cities and turning millions of them into refugees?

Iranian regime/Shias turned the conflict more into a sectarian one first by claiming the Hizbullah is there to protect the Shrine - then they started bringing tens of thousands of foreign sectarian militia for the same excuse and we all know it was just to defend the tyranny of Assad regime (& fight "Wahabis" (Sunnis)) not any shrine. Now the Iranian regime is implementing Israeli style ethnic cleansing by making demographic changes in Syria - settling Lebanese, Iraqi and Shia families from other places into Syrian cities.

P.S. Bashar is mass murderer like his father before him. Hama Massacre in the 80s is not forgotten by the Syrian people.