Bayat Al Ghadeer lost debate with Twelvershia.net

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

https://youtu.be/p3YGaxYvhd8

Eventually this Shia guy from Bayat al ghadeer made a escape when he realized that his false allegation on Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal(rah) will be caught.

At First Shia guy argued Sunnis believe Quran is eternal. Sunni guy responded that he is mispresenting the Sunni stance, by quoting Ibn Taymiyyah, who said none of the Salaf believed that Quran is eternal.

Shia guy then claimed that Ahmad Ibn Hanbal believed Quran is eternal. Sunni guy asked for evidence. Shia guy replied it's famous incident. Sunni replied: What is famous is that  Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal believed Quran is not created, not that he believed Quran is eternal.

Hence Shia guy realized that his deceit was caught, and he not only mispresented the Sunni view, but in order to justify it, he even mispresented the view of Imam Ahmad again using the same fallacy.

Thus he chose to run away, even though at 10:12 he said {shall we go to second argument} which implied he had multiple arguments. But when he was badly refuted, he chose to run away without discussing any further argument.

[Rationalist]

They are excellent debates. I always dreamed that the debates would start at this level, and now my dream became a reality. I too support the Mutazilla view over Imam Ahmad bin Hanibal. However, I never knew until I saw this clip  that Ahmad bin Hanbal never said the Quran is eternal. Also, the next issue is the 12er Shia are not unanimous on the issue whether the Quran is created or not. In fact, the Sunni defense team provided hadith to support their case to which the 12er Shia brother made a interpretation unfounded by their school. Then he kept going into circles. After he got dizzy from going into circles he decided to leave.

[muslim720]

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
After watching the short but informative debate, I did some research of my own and came across an article with a beautiful summary.

Allah says, "Verily, His Command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, 'Be!' and it is!” - Yaseen 82

Ibn `Uyayna explains, "Allah has differentiated his Creation from his Command.  His command is "Be" (Kun)."

Allah says, “Verily! Our Word unto a thing when We intend it, is only that We say unto it: "Be!" and it is.” - Surah An-Nahl 40

Shaykh Abdul Qadir al-Jilani (Rahimahullah), explaining that the word of Allah is not created says, "Allah (subhanahu Wa ta'ala) said, “Verily! to him (belongs) the creation and the Command” (reference to Surah Al-A'raf verse 54); (Allah) has differentiated his Creation from his Command, If His Command which is "Be" (Kun) that He creates His creation (with) is created it would be a repetition that has no benefit - as if He (Allah) said 'Verily! to him (belongs) the creation and the creation'; Allah (subhanahu Wa ta'ala) is far removed from doing such a thing."

http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/uncreatedness_quran.htm

[muslim720]

Personally, this is such a tertiary issue; as long as you believe in the Qur'an and its integrity is the fundamental belief.  I do not know to laugh or cry when I see Shias discuss such matters when they cannot produce one single narration (even weak or rejected) from their own sources which affirms the completeness of Qur'an.  On the flip side, there are over 1200 narrations - more than 200 of them graded sahih - which talk about tahreef.  Icing on cake, they won't even make takfeer on anyone who believes in tahreef.