Ghulat of Yesterday are Shia of Today

[MuslimK]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

New article on YouPuncturedTheArk.wordpress.com
Ghulat of Yesterday are Shia of Today

[Furkan]

Ma sha Allah, can't wait to show this to a Shia I know personnaly.

[Hadrami]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم

New article on YouPuncturedTheArk.wordpress.com
Ghulat of Yesterday are Shia of Today

Great post akhi, it is so true. Now that mainstream shia of today different to shia of yesteryear, in the future the maybe different to shia of today. That belief keeps on changing like chameleon

[Ameen]

Here is the introduction of your article,

"This article is a response to those Ghulat Shia, who make Takfeer of the beloved companions(Sahaba) of Prophet Muhammad(saw) and his beloved wife(Ahlelbayt), such as Abubakr(as), Umar(as), Uthman(as) and Ayesha(as). Out of ignorance and due misinformation they received, those Ghulat declare these companions of Prophet(saw) and his beloved wife as innovators, disbelievers, and hypocrites.(al-liyaazubillah). Hence the Ghulat abuse, curse, slander and mock, the highly revered personalities of Ahl us-Sunnah".

Question 1, How do you make TAKFEER of the beloved companions??? Give me an example!
Question 2, You mock the highly revered personalities of Ahle Tasheyu then, what do you expect in return???
Question 3, Why do some Sunnis abuse, slander,mock etc the revered personalities of Ahle Tasheyu???
Question 4, What is the reason behind Shias cursing certain Ahle Sunnah revered personalities???
Question 5, Why do you label certain Ahle Sunnah books AUTHENTIC when they have material which mocks certain companions and wives of the Messenger (pbuh)

[Bolani Muslim]

I'll try to answer as best as I can.
Question 1, How do you make TAKFEER of the beloved companions??? Give me an example! By calling them kafir/apostates, like how in 1974 Pakistan declared takfir on Qadianis.
Question 2&3, You mock the highly revered personalities of Ahle Tasheyu then, what do you expect in return???
Sunnis love and respect all top personalities of shi'ism  , like Hazrat Ali, Fatima, Hussain, ect. Figures like Khomeini aren't a central role in Shiism (most afghan shias I've met hate him) and the only time he's ridiculed is with proof (unlike shias who ridicule the khalifs for fun).
Question 4, What is the reason behind Shias cursing certain Ahle Sunnah revered personalities???
You're the shia, you should know 

[Furkan]

Haha

[Ameen]

I'll try to answer as best as I can.
Question 1, How do you make TAKFEER of the beloved companions??? Give me an example! By calling them kafir/apostates, like how in 1974 Pakistan declared takfir on Qadianis.
Question 2&3, You mock the highly revered personalities of Ahle Tasheyu then, what do you expect in return???
Sunnis love and respect all top personalities of shi'ism  , like Hazrat Ali, Fatima, Hussain, ect. Figures like Khomeini aren't a central role in Shiism (most afghan shias I've met hate him) and the only time he's ridiculed is with proof (unlike shias who ridicule the khalifs for fun).
Question 4, What is the reason behind Shias cursing certain Ahle Sunnah revered personalities???
You're the shia, you should know 

Why did Pakistan declare takfeer on Qadyanis??? Because they cursed the companions???

[Taha]

Why did Pakistan declare takfeer on Qadyanis??? Because they cursed the companions???

No, because they believe in another prophet after Muhammad (asws)

[Ameen]

Why did Pakistan declare takfeer on Qadyanis??? Because they cursed the companions???

No, because they believe in another prophet after Muhammad (asws)

This is exactly what I wanted to here and this is my point that Takfeer has to do with Nabuwath. Cursing anyone from the companions, for what ever reason what so ever, has got nothing to do with Takfeer.

Now which state has declared Takfeer on Shias??? I asked a question but haven't got a satisfactory answer for my dear audience/viewers. We need an explanation, justification of why and how are Shias Kafir???

[Ameen]

I'll try to answer as best as I can.
Question 1, How do you make TAKFEER of the beloved companions??? Give me an example! By calling them kafir/apostates, like how in 1974 Pakistan declared takfir on Qadianis.
Question 2&3, You mock the highly revered personalities of Ahle Tasheyu then, what do you expect in return???
Sunnis love and respect all top personalities of shi'ism  , like Hazrat Ali, Fatima, Hussain, ect. Figures like Khomeini aren't a central role in Shiism (most afghan shias I've met hate him) and the only time he's ridiculed is with proof (unlike shias who ridicule the khalifs for fun).
Question 4, What is the reason behind Shias cursing certain Ahle Sunnah revered personalities???
You're the shia, you should know 

Hazrath Abu Talib (as) is one of the greatest companions of the Prophet (pbuh), now you clearly accuse him of Kufr. You label him as a kafir. This is what I would like to bring to your attention that you are going to say, "well this is our thought, opinion and point of view, we do not believe that he accepted Islam".

Brothers, just as you have a right to your thought, opinion and point of view, so do others. And if you want others to respect who you hold dear then, you know what to do. You speak about Khomenie, it doesn't matter which Ayatullah it is, you need to show and speak with respect then, by all means demand respect, since you are in the position to do so.

I am a Shia so I should know why, brother then let me tell you that slandering, cursing, humiliating, insulting, swearing and anything else you have in that mind of yours, concerning the companions and wives is not in the Shia belief and faith (Aqeedah). This is not part of Shiaism. Actions of certain individuals have got nothing to do with the community they come from.

It's about time you stopped high jacking Shiaism and holding Shias at ransom, over the actions of certain individuals, just like the western media do concerning Islam and the Muslims. And you have skipped my last question. What was the reason for that???

[Taha]

This is exactly what I wanted to here and this is my point that Takfeer has to do with Nabuwath. Cursing anyone from the companions, for what ever reason what so ever, has got nothing to do with Takfeer.

It isn't just Nubuwwah that can make someone a kafir.  Even merely abandoning prayers can be seen as kufr (as per some narrations).  And just because Pakistan has made takfeer on Ahmadi's doesn't mean it's right.

Now which state has declared Takfeer on Shias??? I asked a question but haven't got a satisfactory answer for my dear audience/viewers. We need an explanation, justification of why and how are Shias Kafir???

I'm wondering, why do you think that a government making takfeer holds any weight?  Pakistan made takfeer of Ahmadi's.  There are some scholars (including the Shia Ayatullah Yaqoobi) that believe Ahmadi's are Muslims.  No government has made takfeer of Shias, but some Sunni scholars have.


Why does a government's opinion hold more weight than a scholar's?  And which scholars are more important to you? 

[Furkan]

Don't go offtopic Ameen! Yiu ruin every post you post in. Be productive and.go to Hanis thread which he made specially for you.

[sword_of_sunnah]

Hazrath Abu Talib (as) is one of the greatest companions of the Prophet (pbuh), now you clearly accuse him of Kufr. You label him as a kafir. This is what I would like to bring to your attention that you are going to say, "well this is our thought, opinion and point of view, we do not believe that he accepted Islam".

Well lets see the reports regarding the faith of Abu Talib from Shia books:

Al-Kafi H 1209, Ch. 111, h 28 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn Salim from abu ‘Abd Allah, who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah(as), has said, ‘The case of abu Talib is like the case of the people of the cave who hid their belief and expressed polytheism. Allah gave them twice as much reward.’”

Al Kafi: H 1214, Ch. 111, h 33 Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad and ‘Abd Allah sons of Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from their father from ‘Abd Allah ibn al-Mughira from ’Isma‘il ibn abu Ziyad from Abu ‘Abd Allah(as), who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah(as), has said, ‘Abu Talib acknowledged Islam through the expression of al-Jummal. He formed number sixty-three with his hands.’”

You see the case of Abu Talib's faith is dubious even in your books, He expressed polytheism and acknowledged Islam forming a Number with his hand. Now from an objective perspective the case of such person is dubious to say the least. Therefore, we need some certain proof over this issue. Such as, what property did Ali(ra) inherit from Abu Talib, if he was believer?

This is such an important question that it distinguishes truth with falsehood.

And I would also like to say that, we respect Abu Talib, we don't curse him. Unlike the extremist Shia who curse and abuse the Sahaba of Prophet Muhammad(saw).

[Taha]

^ I held the belief that Abu Talib (r.a) never entered Islam formally but that he was a righteous person that would be rewarded and some Shias insulted me over such statement. Some ghulat believe that the entire family and ancestry of the Prophet (s.a.w.a) were Muslim, even and especially before Islam was revealed.

Two questions.

1.) Are there any Shia narrations to support this line of thinking, or is it just from personal opinion?
2.) What is the belief of Ahlul Sunnah in regards to the Prophet's (s.a.w.a) ancestry and, in particular, Abu Talib's (r.a) status?

[Furkan]

Rasullulah (saw) his parents are mumeen.  People use hadith to say that his (saw) parents are in hell but they interpret it wrongly and don't pay attention to it's context.

Abu talib will be in hell, since he didn't accept Islam BUT he was a very good man and he helped Rasullulah (saw) since Abu talib is his (saw ) uncle. Hashimites helped each other because of bloodrelations. Abu jahl would even protect his nephew if someone from a different tribe would want to attack his nephew.

 Abu talib was a good man thus he will get the least punishment in hell ( I think rasullulah (saw) made dua for Abu talib).

[Ameen]

This is exactly what I wanted to here and this is my point that Takfeer has to do with Nabuwath. Cursing anyone from the companions, for what ever reason what so ever, has got nothing to do with Takfeer.

It isn't just Nubuwwah that can make someone a kafir.  Even merely abandoning prayers can be seen as kufr (as per some narrations).  And just because Pakistan has made takfeer on Ahmadi's doesn't mean it's right.

Now which state has declared Takfeer on Shias??? I asked a question but haven't got a satisfactory answer for my dear audience/viewers. We need an explanation, justification of why and how are Shias Kafir???

I'm wondering, why do you think that a government making takfeer holds any weight?  Pakistan made takfeer of Ahmadi's.  There are some scholars (including the Shia Ayatullah Yaqoobi) that believe Ahmadi's are Muslims.  No government has made takfeer of Shias, but some Sunni scholars have.


Why does a government's opinion hold more weight than a scholar's?  And which scholars are more important to you? 

Firstly abandoning prayers isn't Kufr but a sin (gunah). It's not what can be seen and said but it's about reality and facts.

Who is a Mushrik or Kafir according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) is one thing but according to certain people, group, party, sect or state is another.

We follow the Shariath and certain people follow what they assume when it comes to Kufr and Shirk.

I didn't say that the state of Pakistan has no weight in their decision about Qadyanis. Nor did I say that Ulamah have no weight.

Just certain people or any particular sect, group, party or a handfull of Ulama accusing someone or each other of Shirk and Kufr is weightless and baseless.

Just for the audience/viewers, if you believe in the Shahadathain, call and declare yourself as Muslims then, you are a Muslim. Unless you reject any part of the Shariath.

Rejecting certain narrations or disputing the meanings of particular verses, not having complete faith in certain companions or paricular wives, has got nothing to do with Kufr what so ever.


















 

[Ameen]

Don't go offtopic Ameen! Yiu ruin every post you post in. Be productive and.go to Hanis thread which he made specially for you.

Don't be silly. I don't go off topic but just reply to what is being said. I am asked questions or matters are put forward to me which are off topic. I just reply and you start jumping. I am not ruining anything but it seems to me you're finding it had to answer and or refute.

[Furkan]

Dude GO TO HANI'S TOPIC,  which he made specially for your questions. And your questions regarding takfeer are being answered there. Please, don't make it hard for humankind.

[Ameen]

Dude GO TO HANI'S TOPIC,  which he made specially for your questions. And your questions regarding takfeer are being answered there. Please, don't make it hard for humankind.

Ikhlaq is not your thing, so I suppose it's a waste of time speaking to you. I don't make it hard for anyone or anything, let alone humans since accusing and abusing is not my thing.

[Optimus Prime]

I'll try to answer as best as I can.
Question 1, How do you make TAKFEER of the beloved companions??? Give me an example! By calling them kafir/apostates, like how in 1974 Pakistan declared takfir on Qadianis.
Question 2&3, You mock the highly revered personalities of Ahle Tasheyu then, what do you expect in return???
Sunnis love and respect all top personalities of shi'ism  , like Hazrat Ali, Fatima, Hussain, ect. Figures like Khomeini aren't a central role in Shiism (most afghan shias I've met hate him) and the only time he's ridiculed is with proof (unlike shias who ridicule the khalifs for fun).
Question 4, What is the reason behind Shias cursing certain Ahle Sunnah revered personalities???
You're the shia, you should know 

Hazrath Abu Talib (as) is one of the greatest companions of the Prophet (pbuh), now you clearly accuse him of Kufr. You label him as a kafir. This is what I would like to bring to your attention that you are going to say, "well this is our thought, opinion and point of view, we do not believe that he accepted Islam".

Brothers, just as you have a right to your thought, opinion and point of view, so do others. And if you want others to respect who you hold dear then, you know what to do. You speak about Khomenie, it doesn't matter which Ayatullah it is, you need to show and speak with respect then, by all means demand respect, since you are in the position to do so.

I am a Shia so I should know why, brother then let me tell you that slandering, cursing, humiliating, insulting, swearing and anything else you have in that mind of yours, concerning the companions and wives is not in the Shia belief and faith (Aqeedah). This is not part of Shiaism. Actions of certain individuals have got nothing to do with the community they come from.

It's about time you stopped high jacking Shiaism and holding Shias at ransom, over the actions of certain individuals, just like the western media do concerning Islam and the Muslims. And you have skipped my last question. What was the reason for that???

That's a fair and valid point, Ameem. However, this is one exception badmouthing the companions (RA) and the wives (RA) in anyway shape or form is intolerable because most of the companions (RA) have been praised and commended in the Qur'an. Even Christian Orientalists share our interpretation where as you guys have a yo-yo version. Ayatullah Khameena's bad habits are well documented and speak for themselves. If someone makes a crude remark about your final Imam Mehdi hiding in a cave or a cellar (wherever) then your point applies since he from our point of view is an imaginary character, but dear to your hearts.