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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Optimus Prime on March 09, 2015, 12:33:26 AM

Title: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 09, 2015, 12:33:26 AM
Narration of `Ali (RA):

[By Allah the creator, if the Prophet (saws) promised me (the Khilafah) I would have done Jihad for it, I would not have allowed ibn abi Quhafa to climb one step from his Mimbar.]

Source: Fada'il al-Siddeeq by al-`Ashari, pg34 #16.

Thanks to Hani for sharing the narration.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Husayn on March 09, 2015, 12:53:09 AM
'Ali (ra) was not the type of person who believed in political pragmatism.

This was evidenced when he assumed the Khilafa, and many of his followers, including his cousin Ibn 'Abbas (ra), advised him against changing any of 'Uthman (ra)'s governers.

He refused this advice and did what he thought was right - even if it was political suicide.

Also - even earlier in life, he refused to change "Muhammad Rasul Allah" during the signing of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah.

'Ali (ra) was a single minded man - he believed what he believed, and noone could change or temper his mind.

This was Sunni 'Ali (ra).
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hadrami on March 09, 2015, 01:20:02 AM
He RA also refused his uncle suggestion to ask Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam about this issue. It is a proof that not him nor his uncle knew anything about Ali RA being appointed. Anyone remember that hadith?
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 09, 2015, 01:29:29 AM
He RA also refused his uncle suggestion to ask Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam about this issue. It is a proof that not him nor his uncle knew anything about Ali RA being appointed. Anyone remember that hadith?

Al-Abbas held him by his hand and said: "Don't you see that in three days you will be an 'abd al-'asa [i.e. a lowly despicable person]? It seems to me that the Messenger of Allah will die from this sickness of his, for I know how the faces of Abdul Muttalib's sons look at the time of death. So return to the Messenger of Allah, and ask him who will get this authority (i.e. the Caliphate). If it is to be with us, we shall come to know that (from him); if it is to be with others, he will command accordingly and entrust (that person) with us."

Ali replied: "By Allah, if we asked the Messenger of Allah and he denied it to us, the people will never give it to us. By Allah, I will never ask the Messenger of Allah."

(Tareekh al-Tabari, Vol.9, pp.175-176)
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hadrami on March 09, 2015, 01:56:51 AM
thanks bro, but i was thinking about similar narration in either Bukhari or Muslim. I cant remember which.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Rationalist on March 09, 2015, 03:15:50 AM
The 12ers have ahadith where one of the Rafidah supposedly silenced Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as).

حدثني علي بن محمد بن قتيبة القتيبي، قالا حدثنا الفضل بن شاذان، قال حدثني أبي، عن محمد بن جمهور، عن بكار بن أبي بكر الحضرمي قال، : دخل أبو بكر و علقمة على زيد بن علي، و كان علقمة أكبر من أبي، فجلس أحدهما عن يمينه و الآخر عن يساره، و كان بلغهما أنه قال ليس الإمام منا من أرخى عليه ستره، إنما الإمام من شهر سيفه، فقال له أبو بكر و كان أجرأهما يا أبا الحسين أخبرني عن علي بن أبي طالب (عليه السلام) أ كان إماما و هو مرخي عليه ستره أو لم يكن إماما حتى خرج و شهر سيفه قال، و كان زيد يبصر الكلام، قال، فسكت فلم يجبه، فرد عليه الكلام ثلاث مرات، كل ذلك لا يجيبه بشي‏ء، فقال له أبو بكر إن كان علي بن أبي طالب إماما فقد يجوز أن يكون بعده إمام مرخي عليه ستره، و إن كان علي (عليه السلام) لم يكن إماما و هو مرخي عليه ستره فأنت ما جاء بك هاهنا، قال، فطلب إلى علقمة أن يكف عنه فكف. محمد بن مسعود، قال كتب إلي الشاذاني أبو عبد الله، يذكر عن الفضل، عن أبيه، مثله سواء
 
788. Narrated to me Ali bin Muhammad bin Qutayba al-Qutaybi who said: narrated to us al-Fadhl bin Shadhan who said: narrated to me my father from Muhammad bin Jumhur from Bakkar bin Abi Bakr al-Hadhramiy who said: my father - Abu Bakr and Alqamah entered upon Zayd bin Ali, and Alqamah was older than my father (they were brothers), so one of them sat to the right of Zayd and the other to his left, and they had been informed that he (Zayd) had said: the Imam from us is not one who draws the curtains around himself (i.e. a metaphor for performing Taqiyyah – secluding oneself at home), rather the Imam is the one who unsheathes his sword, so Abu Bakr said to him, and he was the more daring (bolder) of the two, O Abu al-Husayn (i.e. Zayd), inform me about Ali bin Abi Talib عليه السلام, was he an Imam while his curtains were drawn around him or was he not an Imam until he came out and unsheathed his sword?, he (Bakkar) said: and Zayd was someone who understood arguments - so he kept quiet and did not answer him, so he (Abu Bakr) repeated the question to him thrice, while he (Zayd) kept on not answering him with anything, so Abu Bakr said to him: if Ali was always an Imam than it is also allowed for an Imam after him to be someone whose curtains are drawn around him, and if Ali was not an Imam while his curtains were drawn around him - then what has made you come out (i.e. to call for his right - and to fight - when he had not), so Zayd asked Alqamah to make him stop (i.e. silence him), so he (Abu Bakr) stopped (kept silent).


However, non-Rafidah don't believe Imam Zayd ibn Ali (as) was silent on this issue. He actually had an answer for this case.



Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: ahlebaitlover on March 09, 2015, 05:02:24 PM
Logic says that Ali RA didn't believe he had a right to khilafaat before Abu Bakr ra Umar ra and Usman ra.
WHY???
When Ali ra believed he was in the correct against Aisha RA and Muaviyaa RA, he was ready to go into battle with them and he did.

Shias will say, thats because he had many supports at that time and at Abu Bakrs time he didnt have supports!

Well then we will say that, Husayn ra at the OLD age of 58 with 70 plus family members was ready to fight for his right, but Ali ra at the YOUNG and PEEK age of 33 was not ready to take the Khilafat from Abu Bakr or Umar Or Usman RA?

Shias will say that Ali ra was doing taqiyaa.
Well, this is abusing Ali ra because you are calling him a coward who has not ready to stand up for his rights.
 
[edit]
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Taha on March 09, 2015, 06:47:40 PM
^ That is something that always bothered me as a Shiite. I used to chat with my friends and talk about the various ways we would torture and kill the Shaykhayn if we ever met them (rajah).  I always wondered why Ali never went to fight them and the answer was always that he didn't want to cause fitnah. But that answer makes no sense because he fought Muawiyah, Ayesha, and the Khawarij. His son, Husayn, went to war with Yazeed. It seems as if these blessed Imams of Ahl Al-Bayt didn't care about worldly issues and would fight for whatever is haqq even if they knew that they would lose (as Husayn supposedly did). Thus, since Ali didn't fight the Shaykhayn or Uthman, they were legitimate enough leaders in his eyes.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: MuslimK on March 09, 2015, 07:12:22 PM
^ That is something that always bothered me as a Shiite. I used to chat with my friends and talk about the various ways we would torture and kill the Shaykhayn if we ever met them (rajah).  I always wondered why Ali never went to fight them and the answer was always that he didn't want to cause fitnah. But that answer makes no sense because he fought Muawiyah, Ayesha, and the Khawarij. His son, Husayn, went to war with Yazeed. It seems as if these blessed Imams of Ahl Al-Bayt didn't care about worldly issues and would fight for whatever is haqq even if they knew that they would lose (as Husayn supposedly did). Thus, since Ali didn't fight the Shaykhayn or Uthman, they were legitimate enough leaders in his eyes.

Masha'Allah! Well said.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Furkan on March 09, 2015, 07:27:34 PM
Everytime I hear a shiite saying "Ali did taqiyah" or "Rasululah ordered him to have sabr", I just want to punch 'em in the face.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hani on March 09, 2015, 09:52:17 PM
^ He did it for the omelette of Islam. CUz they liked omelettes back in those days.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Furkan on March 09, 2015, 11:43:42 PM
The sahaba who didn't go with Husayn(as) to karbala are called kafir (auzubillah) by kafir shias.

But the thing is, those sahaba actually didn't want ro create fitna. Why can't shiites accept this argument for sahaba and say " oh ok, that's a good excuse", but if it comes to Ali (as), they will use all kinds of arguments, including this one.

Ameen (if you are still alive), here you go ^, a DOUBLE STANDARD.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Ameen on March 09, 2015, 11:58:27 PM
Narration of `Ali (RA):

[By Allah the creator, if the Prophet (saws) promised me (the Khilafah) I would have done Jihad for it, I would not have allowed ibn abi Quhafa to climb one step from his Mimbar.]

Source: Fada'il al-Siddeeq by al-`Ashari, pg34 #16.

Thanks to Hani for sharing the narration.

And I suppose you believe this narration to be automatically Sehih???
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Taha on March 10, 2015, 12:02:53 AM
Furkan invoked him and he appeared!! What is this sihr?!
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Ameen on March 10, 2015, 12:08:21 AM
The sahaba who didn't go with Husayn(as) to karbala are called kafir (auzubillah) by kafir shias.

But the thing is, those sahaba actually didn't want ro create fitna. Why can't shiites accept this argument for sahaba and say " oh ok, that's a good excuse", but if it comes to Ali (as), they will use all kinds of arguments, including this one.

Ameen (if you are still alive), here you go ^, a DOUBLE STANDARD.

Ok, so those Sahaba who did accompany Hussain (as) to Karbalaa are called and known as Kafir by Shias??? Can you provide me a reference for this.

Those Sahaba didn't go because they didn't want to cause fitna??? Subhanallah! I am surprised at you knowledge and thinking. So Hazrath Hussain (as) was responsible for causing fitna???

Double standards??? Where are the double standards??? Oh, let me tell you, Jamal and Safeen. This is where the double standards are. Using the banner of Sahabiath, just to protect and defend a handful who are accused and ripping Sahabiath off certain companions because they opposed and challenged others, this is double standards.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Ameen on March 10, 2015, 12:09:43 AM
Furkan invoked him and he appeared!! What is this sihr?!

Invoked??? Well that's all he can do. What else is he capable of???
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hadrami on March 10, 2015, 12:12:00 AM
It seems as if these blessed Imams of Ahl Al-Bayt didn't care about worldly issues and would fight for whatever is haqq even if they knew that they would lose (as Husayn supposedly did). Thus, since Ali didn't fight the Shaykhayn or Uthman, they were legitimate enough leaders in his eyes.
Interesting comment since according to shia own sources ALL of them pledged their allegiance to the leaders of their time except Mahdi. If you are fair, then you should accept they are also legit leaders, not just the first three.

In short, lets just say shia narratives are crooked & unbelievable.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Rationalist on March 10, 2015, 12:25:00 AM
^ That is something that always bothered me as a Shiite. I used to chat with my friends and talk about the various ways we would torture and kill the Shaykhayn if we ever met them (rajah).  I always wondered why Ali never went to fight them and the answer was always that he didn't want to cause fitnah. But that answer makes no sense because he fought Muawiyah, Ayesha, and the Khawarij. His son, Husayn, went to war with Yazeed. It seems as if these blessed Imams of Ahl Al-Bayt didn't care about worldly issues and would fight for whatever is haqq even if they knew that they would lose (as Husayn supposedly did). Thus, since Ali didn't fight the Shaykhayn or Uthman, they were legitimate enough leaders in his eyes.

It depends how you define legitimate Calipah. For the Shia sects Calipah and Imams are interchangeable terms. Therefore, a person is expected to be a muqalid of the Calipah. Whereas Sunnis this is not always the case.
As the missing element how can one be  a Calipah without bayah. The Prophet (pbuh) never declared himself as a ruler in Mecca, but when he got the bayah in Madina, he became the ruler of that city.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Rationalist on March 10, 2015, 12:28:30 AM
^ He did it for the omelette of Islam. CUz they liked omelettes back in those days.

They actually use Solomon's story and attribute it to Imam Ali (as).

Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Optimus Prime on March 10, 2015, 01:06:04 AM
The sahaba who didn't go with Husayn(as) to karbala are called kafir (auzubillah) by kafir shias.

But the thing is, those sahaba actually didn't want ro create fitna. Why can't shiites accept this argument for sahaba and say " oh ok, that's a good excuse", but if it comes to Ali (as), they will use all kinds of arguments, including this one.

Ameen (if you are still alive), here you go ^, a DOUBLE STANDARD.

They also knew it was futile and suicide.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Furkan on March 10, 2015, 02:31:39 AM
Quote
Ok, so those Sahaba who did accompany Hussain (as) to Karbalaa are called and known as Kafir by Shias??? Can you provide me a reference for this.

I said " those sahaba that didn't go are called kafir by kafir shias".

Quote
Those Sahaba didn't go because they didn't want to cause fitna??? Subhanallah! I am surprised at you knowledge and thinking. So Hazrath Hussain (as) was responsible for causing fitna???

I would never take a stance against Al Husayn. I meant that many sahaba didn't engage in politics this time because of previous wars actually, they just gave their bayah hoping that everything would become better.

Husayn didn't planned to engage in war on his way to kufa but once he met enemies on his way, he didn't have a choice anymore. As for the sahaba, they didn't have cellphones back in time to get informed about everything instantly.

Quote
Double standards??? Where are the double standards??? Oh, let me tell you, Jamal and Safeen. This is where the double standards are. Using the banner of Sahabiath, just to protect and defend a handful who are accused and ripping Sahabiath off certain companions because they opposed and challenged others, this is double standards.

this again -_-

Quote
Invoked??? Well that's all he can do. What else is he capable of???

Invoking you twice
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Ameen on March 13, 2015, 02:31:32 AM
Provide me with a reference where Shias call those Sahaba Kafir, who didn't acompany Hussain (as)??? And you directly accused Hussain (as) of engaging in fitna or those who sided and acompanied Hussain (as) of fitna. Now you're just trying to wirl your way out of it. It seems to me you severely lack in knowledge and information about Karbala and what led to it.

Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Furkan on March 13, 2015, 02:40:04 AM
Refer to the video of yasir al habib where he slanders umar ibn ali. I asked a shiite for the reason of this slandering by this shiite scholar and he told me it's bcuz umar ibn ali didn't go with Husayn.

Don't accuse me of things, which I didn't say and you have many baseless assumptions there, don't you think Mr. Question?
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hani on March 13, 2015, 03:34:12 PM
Nor did Muhammad bin `Ali go.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hadrami on March 13, 2015, 10:45:25 PM
Nor did Muhammad bin `Ali go.

speaking of muhammad bin ali, dont shia believe that mukhtar asked permission to rebel from him instead of asking permission from the infallible imam?
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Furkan on March 13, 2015, 10:53:51 PM
Yes true.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hani on March 13, 2015, 10:54:08 PM
Mukhtar was the man who evolved Ibn Saba's' idea of Wasiyyah into the Imamah we know today, he said the Imam of his time was Muhammad ibn `Ali. Simply because the emphasis back in those days was mainly on `Ali's person, not his children.

I think it's recorded in Imami books that Mukhtar is a liar, although he is loved by Shia yet when Imami narrations were being fabricated, the Kaysani sect was still very strong and they had many numbers, to the extent where Kaysanis played a key role in overthrowing banu Umayyah and installing the `Abbasi rule. Kaysanis are directly linked to al-Mukhtar, so this is why non-Kaysani Imamis attacked al-Mukhtar's person (which never worked very well because he DID kill Husayn's killers so he's VERY loved in the Shia street until today).

It's not something Shias believe, it's actually truth, al-Mukhtar did claim that ibn al-Hanafiyyah was the one who gave him permission, people bought it.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Furkan on March 13, 2015, 10:57:15 PM
A shiite said the following to me:

"He (mukthar) has bad things and good things on his record"

He said the same about zayd bin ali.

Why can't the shiites atleast say the same thing about sahaba ?!
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Khaled on March 13, 2015, 11:38:45 PM
Mukhtar was the man who evolved Ibn Saba's' idea of Wasiyyah into the Imamah we know today, he said the Imam of his time was Muhammad ibn `Ali. Simply because the emphasis back in those days was mainly on `Ali's person, not his children.

I think it's recorded in Imami books that Mukhtar is a liar, although he is loved by Shia yet when Imami narrations were being fabricated, the Kaysani sect was still very strong and they had many numbers, to the extent where Kaysanis played a key role in overthrowing banu Umayyah and installing the `Abbasi rule. Kaysanis are directly linked to al-Mukhtar, so this is why non-Kaysani Imamis attacked al-Mukhtar's person (which never worked very well because he DID kill Husayn's killers so he's VERY loved in the Shia street until today).

It's not something Shias believe, it's actually truth, al-Mukhtar did claim that ibn al-Hanafiyyah was the one who gave him permission, people bought it.

Akhi, we really should try to get together and start a project detailing this history; a lot of what you are saying is news to me.  I think it would work best if you created a basic outline and I do the "grunt work."
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hani on March 14, 2015, 12:02:39 AM
Insha-Allah I'll let you know when I researched it sufficiently, it may take years.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Furkan on March 14, 2015, 12:33:42 AM
Quote
it may take years.


Lol i almost died when i read this :P
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Hadrami on March 14, 2015, 01:26:41 AM
Mukhtar was the man who evolved Ibn Saba's' idea of Wasiyyah into the Imamah we know today, he said the Imam of his time was Muhammad ibn `Ali. Simply because the emphasis back in those days was mainly on `Ali's person, not his children.

I think it's recorded in Imami books that Mukhtar is a liar, although he is loved by Shia yet when Imami narrations were being fabricated, the Kaysani sect was still very strong and they had many numbers, to the extent where Kaysanis played a key role in overthrowing banu Umayyah and installing the `Abbasi rule. Kaysanis are directly linked to al-Mukhtar, so this is why non-Kaysani Imamis attacked al-Mukhtar's person (which never worked very well because he DID kill Husayn's killers so he's VERY loved in the Shia street until today).

It's not something Shias believe, it's actually truth, al-Mukhtar did claim that ibn al-Hanafiyyah was the one who gave him permission, people bought it.

Shia tried to minimise the possible damage it may cause by portraying the reason mukhtar asked permission from al hanafiyah instead of infallible was because he was told to do so by the imam.

Imam was afraid to do anything. Not as bad as the one who has been afraid for his life for 1000+ yrs tho :D
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on June 03, 2019, 07:13:33 AM
I've a question gentlemen,,
the brand new shia argument is :
Khilafat/imamat may be of two types..
shar'i khilafat and Zameeni khilafat, Ali ra was asked to stay away fr worldly things so he didn't unleash his sword against the usurpers but He was just a Shar'i khalofa and he did it with all his strength i.e issuing fatwas, shar'i rulings, he answered every single question about deen Islam amd shriat and that is the mission of an imam..
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 03, 2019, 08:19:26 PM
I've a question gentlemen,,
the brand new shia argument is :
Khilafat/imamat may be of two types..
shar'i khilafat and Zameeni khilafat, Ali ra was asked to stay away fr worldly things so he didn't unleash his sword against the usurpers but He was just a Shar'i khalofa and he did it with all his strength i.e issuing fatwas, shar'i rulings, he answered every single question about deen Islam amd shriat and that is the mission of an imam..
Which was the Caliphate which Abbas(RA) wanted to ask Prophet(saws) during his final illness, and Ali(RA) said that, if Prophet(S) denies, people would never appoint them as Caliph?

Secondly If Sharai Caliphate is something which means issuing Fatwas, Sharai rulings, answering religious questions, then many of major and knowledgeable Sahaba were involved in this task.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on June 03, 2019, 08:28:47 PM
Which was the Caliphate which Abbas(RA) wanted to ask Prophet(saws) during his final illness, and Ali(RA) said that, if Prophet(S) denies, people would never appoint them as Caliph?
obviously they gonna reject this naration saying that aint hujjah on us..

Secondly If Sharai Caliphate is something which means issuing Fatwas, Sharai rulings, answering religious questions, then many of major and knowledgeable Sahaba were involved in this task.
but we are discussing about shitie beliefs,the answer to this is gonna be "Yes but No one was more knowledgeable than Ali RA and the supposed Imams"
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 04, 2019, 09:01:38 AM
obviously they gonna reject this naration saying that aint hujjah on us..
If they to set their own rules suitable for them, then its futile to discuss with them.

Because spiritual duties of a Caliph were also being performed by the worldly caliphs, like commanding jihad, leading prayer, judging the affairs of people, etc.

Secondly, how is their current Imam performing this duty? And who is performing this duty now?
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 12:17:07 PM
'Ali (ra) was not the type of person who believed in political pragmatism.

This was evidenced when he assumed the Khilafa, and many of his followers, including his cousin Ibn 'Abbas (ra), advised him against changing any of 'Uthman (ra)'s governers.

He refused this advice and did what he thought was right - even if it was political suicide.

Also - even earlier in life, he refused to change "Muhammad Rasul Allah" during the signing of the Treaty of Hudaybiyah.

'Ali (ra) was a single minded man - he believed what he believed, and noone could change or temper his mind.

This was Sunni 'Ali (ra).

Ali had his principles. He was a man of principles. Caliphate and getting into authority wasn't more important to him than his principles. He wouldn't sell himself short or go out of his way just to get into authority like the others.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 12:20:15 PM
Al-Abbas held him by his hand and said: "Don't you see that in three days you will be an 'abd al-'asa [i.e. a lowly despicable person]? It seems to me that the Messenger of Allah will die from this sickness of his, for I know how the faces of Abdul Muttalib's sons look at the time of death. So return to the Messenger of Allah, and ask him who will get this authority (i.e. the Caliphate). If it is to be with us, we shall come to know that (from him); if it is to be with others, he will command accordingly and entrust (that person) with us."

Ali replied: "By Allah, if we asked the Messenger of Allah and he denied it to us, the people will never give it to us. By Allah, I will never ask the Messenger of Allah."

(Tareekh al-Tabari, Vol.9, pp.175-176)

So the matter of Caliphate and who should succeed Muhammad s.a.w by getting into authority was a hot issue and on people's mind after all.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 12:29:01 PM
Logic says that Ali RA didn't believe he had a right to khilafaat before Abu Bakr ra Umar ra and Usman ra.
WHY???
When Ali ra believed he was in the correct against Aisha RA and Muaviyaa RA, he was ready to go into battle with them and he did.

Shias will say, thats because he had many supports at that time and at Abu Bakrs time he didnt have supports!

Well then we will say that, Husayn ra at the OLD age of 58 with 70 plus family members was ready to fight for his right, but Ali ra at the YOUNG and PEEK age of 33 was not ready to take the Khilafat from Abu Bakr or Umar Or Usman RA?

Shias will say that Ali ra was doing taqiyaa.
Well, this is abusing Ali ra because you are calling him a coward who has not ready to stand up for his rights.
 
[edit]

Let me answer such a simple matter for you. Rather than you asking and answering based on assumption that "Shias will say...".

"When Ali ra believed he was in the correct against Aisha RA and Muaviyaa RA, he was ready to go into battle with them and he did"

Ali didn't go into battle with them they raised arms against him.

"Well then we will say that, Husayn ra at the OLD age of 58 with 70 plus family members was ready to fight for his right, but Ali ra at the YOUNG and PEEK age of 33 was not ready to take the Khilafat from Abu Bakr or Umar Or Usman RA?"

There was a difference between the time of Ali and the time of Husayn. And both were facing different situations and dealing with different people altogether. Read history and you will get to know this.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 02:43:59 PM
Imam Ali never took up arms against Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman. Some Ahlul Sunnah scholars try and argue that this shows he was not opposed to them. This is an incorrect analysis and a misunderstanding of Imam Ali’s thinking and motivations.

The reason Ali did not fight after the death of the Prophet (S) is because he did not want to divide the nascent, infant Muslim community. He did not want innocent Muslims to die in battle, killing each other, in order to take power. The historians, Sunni and Shia, record how Abu Sufyan offered him troops but Imam Ali turned him down and criticised his divisive offer.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 09:18:19 AM
Imam Ali never took up arms against Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman. Some Ahlul Sunnah scholars try and argue that this shows he was not opposed to them. This is an incorrect analysis and a misunderstanding of Imam Ali’s thinking and motivations.

The reason Ali did not fight after the death of the Prophet (S) is because he did not want to divide the nascent, infant Muslim community. He did not want innocent Muslims to die in battle, killing each other, in order to take power. The historians, Sunni and Shia, record how Abu Sufyan offered him troops but Imam Ali turned him down and criticised his divisive offer.

But Allah says in Quran that if people turn away from Islam, He will bring a people who will fight in the way of Allah.

O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion(Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-sufficient for His creature’s needs, All-Knower”}. (Quran 5:54).

The person whom you allege to be first Caliph didn’t fulfill this prophesy mentioned in Quran, as you have started making excuses. However the person whom Sunnis consider to be first Caliph perfectly fulfilled the prophesy when people turned away from Islam.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
But Allah says in Quran that if people turn away from Islam, He will bring a people who will fight in the way of Allah.

O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion(Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-sufficient for His creature’s needs, All-Knower”}. (Quran 5:54).

The person whom you allege to be first Caliph didn’t fulfill this prophesy mentioned in Quran, as you have started making excuses. However the person whom Sunnis consider to be first Caliph perfectly fulfilled the prophesy when people turned away from Islam.

"first Caliph perfectly fulfilled the prophesy when people turned away from Islam"

Give me an example with reference and prove this. Then will talk about the other.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 11:13:35 AM
"first Caliph perfectly fulfilled the prophesy when people turned away from Islam"

Give me an example with reference and prove this. Then will talk about the other.

Abū bakr(as) sent an army to fight the apostates like musailama Kadhaab, etc.  This is something well known in history. One should be extremely ignorant to not know these basics historical facts.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 11:50:07 AM
Abū bakr(as) sent an army to fight the apostates like musailama Kadhaab, etc.  This is something well known in history. One should be extremely ignorant to not know these basics historical facts.

What you've put forward is just air and wind until you clarify it and back it up with facts and references. 😊

"One should be extremely ignorant to not know these basics historical facts"

Don't be so quick to pass judgment just on words.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 12:10:52 PM
What you've put forward is just air and wind until you clarify it and back it up with facts and references. 😊

"One should be extremely ignorant to not know these basics historical facts"

Don't be so quick to pass judgment just on words.

Narrted Ibn `Abbas: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "You will be resurrected (and assembled) bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised." The Prophet (ﷺ) then recited the Divine Verse:-- "As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: A promise We have undertaken. Truly we shall do it." (21.104) He added, "The first to be dressed will be Abraham. Then some of my companions will take to the right and to the left. I will say: 'My companions! 'It will be said, 'They had been renegades since you left them.' I will then say what the Pious Slave Jesus, the son of Mary said: 'And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them; when You did take me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if you forgive them, You, only You are the All-Mighty the All-Wise.' " (5.117-118) Narrated Quaggas, "Those were the apostates who renegade from Islam during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr who fought them". (Sahih al-Bukhari #3447)
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 11, 2019, 12:32:11 PM
Narrted Ibn `Abbas: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "You will be resurrected (and assembled) bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised." The Prophet (ﷺ) then recited the Divine Verse:-- "As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: A promise We have undertaken. Truly we shall do it." (21.104) He added, "The first to be dressed will be Abraham. Then some of my companions will take to the right and to the left. I will say: 'My companions! 'It will be said, 'They had been renegades since you left them.' I will then say what the Pious Slave Jesus, the son of Mary said: 'And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them; when You did take me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if you forgive them, You, only You are the All-Mighty the All-Wise.' " (5.117-118) Narrated Quaggas, "Those were the apostates who renegade from Islam during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr who fought them". (Sahih al-Bukhari #3447)

Since you brought this up here's something from a Sunni site. Nothing will be put forward from a shia or any other site.

Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was known by the kunyah Abu Hanzalah; he was a poet and knight, one of the knights of Banu Yarboo’, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) employed him to collect the zakaah of his people.

The historical reports agree to some extent that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed by some of the troops of Khaalid ibn al-Waleed, and that after that Khaalid married his wife Layla bint Sinaan.

As for the reason why Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed, and the circumstances surrounding this incident, the reports vary, but most of the earlier historians who recorded this incident, such as al-Waaqidi, Ibn Ishaaq, Wuthaymah, Sayf ibn ‘Umar, Ibn Sa’d, Khaleefah ibn Khayyaat and others, state that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah refused to pay zakaah and withheld the zakaah camels, and he prevented his people from paying it, which led Khaalid to kill him, without paying any attention to his claim that he was Muslim and prayed regularly.

Ibn Salaam said in Tabaqaat Fuhool al-Shu’ara’ (172):

Notice this bit.

'As for the reason why Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed, and the circumstances surrounding this incident, the reports vary'

Circumstances surrounding this incident the REPORTS VARY.

So why did some of the Sahaabah criticize Khaalid for killing Maalik ibn Nuwayrah, as was done by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab and his son ‘Abd-Allaah, and Abu Qataadah al-Ansaari?

The reason for that may be found in some reports, as it seems that the attitude of Maalik ibn Nuwayrah about zakaah was ambiguous at first, and did not clearly deny that it was obligatory, and he did not pay it, so these Sahaabah were not certain about his view on the issue. But Khaalid ibn al-Waleed accused him and killed him. Because Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was outwardly a Muslim and prayed, Khaalid should not have been hasty and should have investigated his case further, and see whether Maalik ibn Nuwayrah would change his mind about zakaah. So some of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) denounced him for that.

It says in al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah by Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) (6/322):

Khaalid sent the troops to al-Battaah, calling the people to Islam, and the leaders of Banu Tameem came to him, hearing and obeying, and they paid the zakaah, except for Maalik ibn Nuwayrah. It is as if he was not certain what to do and he was holding back. The troops came to him and took him and his companions prisoner, but the soldiers disagreed about what to do with them. Abu Qataadah al-Haarith ibn Rib’i al-Ansaari bore witness that they prayed, but others said that they did not give the adhaan or pray. End quote.

Because Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was one of the leaders and nobles of his people, and his stance was not clear at the beginning, his brother Mutammim ibn Nuwayrah complained to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him) about what Khaalid had done, and he rebuked Khaalid and said that he had erred by rushing to kill Maalik ibn Nuwayrah before referring the matter to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and the senior Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). 

Khaleefah ibn Khayyaat (1/17) narrated:
Ali ibn Muhammad narrated to us from Abu Dhi’b from al-Zuhri from Saalim that his father said: Abu Qataadah came to Abu Bakr and told him that Maalik and his companions had been killed, and he was very upset by that. Abu Bakr wrote to Khaalid telling him to come to him. Abu Bakr said: The worst that Khaalid could have done is making the wrong decision. Abu Bakr reinstated Khaalid and paid the diyah for Maalik ibn Nuwayrah, and he returned the prisoners and the wealth. End quote.

Ibn Hajar said in al-Isaabah (5/755):

His brother Mutammim came to Abu Bakr and eulogized his brother and urged him to pay the diyah and return the prisoners, so Abu Bakr set the prisoners free. Al-Zubayr ibn Bakkaar said that Abu Bakr ordered Khaalid to divorce the wife of Maalik, and ‘Umar rebuked Khaalid sternly about the case of Maalik, but Abu Bakr pardoned him. End quote.

This is the most that can be said about the story of Khaalid ibn al-Waleed killing Maalik ibn Nuwayrah. Either he was correct in killing him for withholding zakaah and denying that it was obligatory after the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or he made a mistake and Khaalid rushed to kill him when he should have examined the matter and established proof. Whatever the case, this is not a slander against Khaalid (may Allaah be pleased with him)

As you can see in the entire history you will find that the matter isn't clear. Only those who want to protect Khalid bin Waleed are going to the extent of slandering and accusing a companion of the Prophet s.a.w of apostacy. And if you accuse Malik of apostasy, going astray or what ever then you're slamming your own principle of 'SAHABA ARE MEHFOOZ'. Sahaba are not MEHFOOZ anymore after this are they?
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 11, 2019, 02:30:47 PM
Since you brought this up here's something from a Sunni site. Nothing will be put forward from a shia or any other site.

Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was known by the kunyah Abu Hanzalah; he was a poet and knight, one of the knights of Banu Yarboo’, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) employed him to collect the zakaah of his people.

The historical reports agree to some extent that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed by some of the troops of Khaalid ibn al-Waleed, and that after that Khaalid married his wife Layla bint Sinaan.

As for the reason why Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed, and the circumstances surrounding this incident, the reports vary, but most of the earlier historians who recorded this incident, such as al-Waaqidi, Ibn Ishaaq, Wuthaymah, Sayf ibn ‘Umar, Ibn Sa’d, Khaleefah ibn Khayyaat and others, state that Maalik ibn Nuwayrah refused to pay zakaah and withheld the zakaah camels, and he prevented his people from paying it, which led Khaalid to kill him, without paying any attention to his claim that he was Muslim and prayed regularly.

Ibn Salaam said in Tabaqaat Fuhool al-Shu’ara’ (172):

Notice this bit.

'As for the reason why Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was killed, and the circumstances surrounding this incident, the reports vary'

Circumstances surrounding this incident the REPORTS VARY.

So why did some of the Sahaabah criticize Khaalid for killing Maalik ibn Nuwayrah, as was done by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab and his son ‘Abd-Allaah, and Abu Qataadah al-Ansaari?

The reason for that may be found in some reports, as it seems that the attitude of Maalik ibn Nuwayrah about zakaah was ambiguous at first, and did not clearly deny that it was obligatory, and he did not pay it, so these Sahaabah were not certain about his view on the issue. But Khaalid ibn al-Waleed accused him and killed him. Because Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was outwardly a Muslim and prayed, Khaalid should not have been hasty and should have investigated his case further, and see whether Maalik ibn Nuwayrah would change his mind about zakaah. So some of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) denounced him for that.

It says in al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah by Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) (6/322):

Khaalid sent the troops to al-Battaah, calling the people to Islam, and the leaders of Banu Tameem came to him, hearing and obeying, and they paid the zakaah, except for Maalik ibn Nuwayrah. It is as if he was not certain what to do and he was holding back. The troops came to him and took him and his companions prisoner, but the soldiers disagreed about what to do with them. Abu Qataadah al-Haarith ibn Rib’i al-Ansaari bore witness that they prayed, but others said that they did not give the adhaan or pray. End quote.

Because Maalik ibn Nuwayrah was one of the leaders and nobles of his people, and his stance was not clear at the beginning, his brother Mutammim ibn Nuwayrah complained to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him) about what Khaalid had done, and he rebuked Khaalid and said that he had erred by rushing to kill Maalik ibn Nuwayrah before referring the matter to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and the senior Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them). 

Khaleefah ibn Khayyaat (1/17) narrated:
Ali ibn Muhammad narrated to us from Abu Dhi’b from al-Zuhri from Saalim that his father said: Abu Qataadah came to Abu Bakr and told him that Maalik and his companions had been killed, and he was very upset by that. Abu Bakr wrote to Khaalid telling him to come to him. Abu Bakr said: The worst that Khaalid could have done is making the wrong decision. Abu Bakr reinstated Khaalid and paid the diyah for Maalik ibn Nuwayrah, and he returned the prisoners and the wealth. End quote.

Ibn Hajar said in al-Isaabah (5/755):

His brother Mutammim came to Abu Bakr and eulogized his brother and urged him to pay the diyah and return the prisoners, so Abu Bakr set the prisoners free. Al-Zubayr ibn Bakkaar said that Abu Bakr ordered Khaalid to divorce the wife of Maalik, and ‘Umar rebuked Khaalid sternly about the case of Maalik, but Abu Bakr pardoned him. End quote.

This is the most that can be said about the story of Khaalid ibn al-Waleed killing Maalik ibn Nuwayrah. Either he was correct in killing him for withholding zakaah and denying that it was obligatory after the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or he made a mistake and Khaalid rushed to kill him when he should have examined the matter and established proof. Whatever the case, this is not a slander against Khaalid (may Allaah be pleased with him)

As you can see in the entire history you will find that the matter isn't clear. Only those who want to protect Khalid bin Waleed are going to the extent of slandering and accusing a companion of the Prophet s.a.w of apostacy. And if you accuse Malik of apostasy, going astray or what ever then you're slamming your own principle of 'SAHABA ARE MEHFOOZ'. Sahaba are not MEHFOOZ anymore after this are they?

It’s your failed attempt to derail the topic. I never mentioned the individuals whom Abū bakr(as) fought. I just mentioned apostates. They could be followers of Musailama Kazab or anyone else, regardless of the individuals. And hence the prophesy was fulfilled. Your failed attempts to derail the topic are in vain.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 11, 2019, 02:36:04 PM
It’s your failed attempt to derail the topic. I never mentioned the individuals whom Abū bakr(as) fought. I just mentioned apostates. They could be followers of Musailama Kazab or anyone else, regardless of the individuals. And hence the prophesy was fulfilled. Your failed attempts to derail the topic are in vain.

By your tiny response based on arrogance and stubbornness I know that I've nailed it. Keep up the confrontational stance based on arrogance and ignorance. 😊 Doesn't effect me at all.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 11, 2019, 03:45:34 PM
By your tiny response based on arrogance and stubbornness I know that I've nailed it. Keep up the confrontational stance based on arrogance and ignorance. 😊 Doesn't effect me at all.

When the opponent copy pastes a lengthy irrelevant response, just to detail the topic, out of embarrassment. Then a tiny response is more than enough.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 12, 2019, 12:08:30 PM
When the opponent copy pastes a lengthy irrelevant response, just to detail the topic, out of embarrassment. Then a tiny response is more than enough.

Copy and paste. Is that the only excuse you could find to save your skin. 😊
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 12, 2019, 01:08:20 PM
Copy and paste. Is that the only excuse you could find to save your skin. 😊

Derail the topic out of embarrassment , is that the only way you had left. Poor chap.

Anyways take this gift from me :

Malik bin Nuwayrah was an apostate as per Shia Shaykh al-Mufeed.

لمالك بن نويرة، وهو صاحب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله على الصدقات، ومن تبعه من وجوه المسلمين من الردة عن الإسلام.
[Al-Ifṣaḥ fī l-imāmah, page 41]

Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 13, 2019, 12:32:09 AM
Derail the topic out of embarrassment , is that the only way you had left. Poor chap.

Anyways take this gift from me :

Malik bin Nuwayrah was an apostate as per Shia Shaykh al-Mufeed.

لمالك بن نويرة، وهو صاحب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله على الصدقات، ومن تبعه من وجوه المسلمين من الردة عن الإسلام.
[Al-Ifṣaḥ fī l-imāmah, page 41]
[/quote

Malik bin Nuwayrah and those killed alongside him were companions of the Prophet s.a.w? Yes or no? OK lets stick to Malik, was he a companion of the Prophet s.a.w? If the answer yes then he became an apostate. So companions of the Prophet s.a.w are in reality not MEHFOOZ. So if you accuse companions of apostasy then why not let the others at least criticise and condemn those that they feel need to be. What's the problem then. Stick to a principal and abide by it.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 13, 2019, 03:39:38 AM
Derail the topic out of embarrassment , is that the only way you had left. Poor chap.

Anyways take this gift from me :

Malik bin Nuwayrah was an apostate as per Shia Shaykh al-Mufeed.

لمالك بن نويرة، وهو صاحب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله على الصدقات، ومن تبعه من وجوه المسلمين من الردة عن الإسلام.
[Al-Ifṣaḥ fī l-imāmah, page 41]
[/quote

Malik bin Nuwayrah and those killed alongside him were companions of the Prophet s.a.w? Yes or no? OK lets stick to Malik, was he a companion of the Prophet s.a.w? If the answer yes then he became an apostate. So companions of the Prophet s.a.w are in reality not MEHFOOZ. So if you accuse companions of apostasy then why not let the others at least criticise and condemn those that they feel need to be. What's the problem then. Stick to a principal and abide by it.
As per the definition of Sahabi , one of the condition is the person should die in the state of Emaan. Hence as per the istalahi definition of Sahabi , Malik isn’t considered Sahabi, because his death wasn’t on Emaan. Sunnis consider only those ashaab of Prophet(s) as Sahaba those who met the condition of dying in the state of Emaan.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 13, 2019, 10:40:03 AM
As per the definition of Sahabi , one of the condition is the person should die in the state of Emaan. Hence as per the istalahi definition of Sahabi , Malik isn’t considered Sahabi, because his death wasn’t on Emaan. Sunnis consider only those ashaab of Prophet(s) as Sahaba those who met the condition of dying in the state of Emaan.

If that's the case then why didn't Abu Bakr say to Malik's brother that he was killed lawfully and within reason. And did or did not Khalid marry Malik's wife straight after the killing. This puts the whole episode in jeopardy. The matter isn't clear bro. But this still stands that if you have the right to go into history and accuse certain Companions of this that or the other and have the right to that opinion then I'm afraid so do others.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 13, 2019, 03:03:05 PM
If that's the case then why didn't Abu Bakr say to Malik's brother that he was killed lawfully and within reason.
Prove it.

 
And did or did not Khalid marry Malik's wife straight after the killing.
It’s a fact that Khalid married Malik’s EX-WIFE. And When Malik apostates his wife took divorce from him, but he kept her in captivity. If don’t want to believe, let it be, but your own report says that the wife of Murtad becomes a stranger to him, meaning their relationship is annulled.


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْعَلَاءِ بْنِ رَزِينٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الْمُرْتَدِّ فَقَالَ مَنْ رَغِبَ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ كَفَرَ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِ فَلَا تَوْبَةَ لَهُ وَ قَدْ وَجَبَ قَتْلُهُ وَ بَانَتْ مِنْهُ امْرَأَتُهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَى وُلْدِهِ

From Muhammad bin Muslim said: That I said Abaa Ja`far(as) about the apostate (murtad). So he(as) said: “Whoever turns away from Islaam, and disbelieves in what Allaah has revealed to the Prophet(saws) after being a Muslim, there is no repentance for him, and it is waajib (obligatory) to kill him, and his wife becomes a stranger to him, and his legacy be divided among his children.” [Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 256, hadeeth # 1 ; Hasan Kal-SaHeeH (Good like an Authentic (hadeeth) à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 396
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 13, 2019, 06:08:05 PM
Prove it.

 It’s a fact that Khalid married Malik’s EX-WIFE. And When Malik apostates his wife took divorce from him, but he kept her in captivity. If don’t want to believe, let it be, but your own report says that the wife of Murtad becomes a stranger to him, meaning their relationship is annulled.


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْعَلَاءِ بْنِ رَزِينٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الْمُرْتَدِّ فَقَالَ مَنْ رَغِبَ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ كَفَرَ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِ فَلَا تَوْبَةَ لَهُ وَ قَدْ وَجَبَ قَتْلُهُ وَ بَانَتْ مِنْهُ امْرَأَتُهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَى وُلْدِهِ

From Muhammad bin Muslim said: That I said Abaa Ja`far(as) about the apostate (murtad). So he(as) said: “Whoever turns away from Islaam, and disbelieves in what Allaah has revealed to the Prophet(saws) after being a Muslim, there is no repentance for him, and it is waajib (obligatory) to kill him, and his wife becomes a stranger to him, and his legacy be divided among his children.” [Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 256, hadeeth # 1 ; Hasan Kal-SaHeeH (Good like an Authentic (hadeeth) à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 396

You need to prove Malik became an apostate. The reports aren't clear according to your scholars and in your history books. You also need to prove that Malik left Islam. No accusation is acceptable on anyone until it's proven. Take this matter to court with an independent jury who is neither Sunni or Shia and you'll see what the outcome is. Based on all the historical evidence the verdict on Malik and those killed alongside him will be 'NOT GUILTY' due to the evidence not being clear enough. It's time you boys started developing an open mind about this and start being honest and just in matters.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 13, 2019, 06:49:17 PM
Prove it.

 It’s a fact that Khalid married Malik’s EX-WIFE. And When Malik apostates his wife took divorce from him, but he kept her in captivity. If don’t want to believe, let it be, but your own report says that the wife of Murtad becomes a stranger to him, meaning their relationship is annulled.


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ وَ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ جَمِيعاً عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ الْعَلَاءِ بْنِ رَزِينٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الْمُرْتَدِّ فَقَالَ مَنْ رَغِبَ عَنِ الْإِسْلَامِ وَ كَفَرَ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ ص بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِ فَلَا تَوْبَةَ لَهُ وَ قَدْ وَجَبَ قَتْلُهُ وَ بَانَتْ مِنْهُ امْرَأَتُهُ وَ يُقْسَمُ مَا تَرَكَ عَلَى وُلْدِهِ

From Muhammad bin Muslim said: That I said Abaa Ja`far(as) about the apostate (murtad). So he(as) said: “Whoever turns away from Islaam, and disbelieves in what Allaah has revealed to the Prophet(saws) after being a Muslim, there is no repentance for him, and it is waajib (obligatory) to kill him, and his wife becomes a stranger to him, and his legacy be divided among his children.” [Al-Kaafi, vol. 7, pg. 256, hadeeth # 1 ; Hasan Kal-SaHeeH (Good like an Authentic (hadeeth) à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 23, pg. 396

"Prove it"

I've already mentioned it to you that Abu Bakr summoned Khalid and interrogated him over the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah and his men. And the decision was reached by Abu Bakr that Khalid erred and blood money was paid to Malik's brother. But Khalid wasn't dismissed from his post and punished for this because of his status. This is also part of history. So whether I have to prove this bit or you have to prove your bit, if either of us can't prove then what? Malik is innocent until proven guilty. Or is Malik guilty until proven innocent. Come on and start being reasonable.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 13, 2019, 07:44:59 PM
"Prove it"

I've already mentioned it to you that Abu Bakr summoned Khalid and interrogated him over the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah and his men. And the decision was reached by Abu Bakr that Khalid erred and blood money was paid to Malik's brother. But Khalid wasn't dismissed from his post and punished for this because of his status. This is also part of history. So whether I have to prove this bit or you have to prove your bit, if either of us can't prove then what? Malik is innocent until proven guilty. Or is Malik guilty until proven innocent. Come on and start being reasonable.

So in short you can’t prove your claim ?

While I showed you that al-mufeed deemed Malik a murtad. Shows your biggie chose which version to be correct.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 13, 2019, 10:48:11 PM
So in short you can’t prove your claim ?

While I showed you that al-mufeed deemed Malik a murtad. Shows your biggie chose which version to be correct.

I can prove what ever I say or claim. I didn't accuse Malik of apostasy, you did. Or those who did or do need to prove it. The accuser or the defendants of the accuser needs to prove, not the accused or the defendants of the accused 😊 So lets here it.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 13, 2019, 11:25:05 PM
I can prove what ever I say or claim. I didn't accuse Malik of apostasy, you did. Or those who did or do need to prove it. The accuser or the defendants of the accuser needs to prove, not the accused or the defendants of the accused 😊 So lets here it.

Sorry to butt in bro sunnah.

“ I can prove what ever I claim” ICEMAN.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

This blabbering fool posted “Umar said don’t listen to him” previously and I did ask for him to prove it.

He still AVOIDS it because he knows it’s fake and now look at his words 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

You don’t know whether to laugh or pity this pathetic little hypocrite 😂
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 14, 2019, 12:04:35 AM
Sorry to butt in bro sunnah.

“ I can prove what ever I claim” ICEMAN.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

This blabbering fool posted “Umar said don’t listen to him” previously and I did ask for him to prove it.

He still AVOIDS it because he knows it’s fake and now look at his words 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Really??? Barf-wale is this true?
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 14, 2019, 12:11:23 AM
Really??? Barf-wale is this true?

So you want to prove that Malik was an apostate, became an apostate crystal clear reports. And what are your thoughts on those who criticise and condemn companions over certain matters from history books just as you have the right to accuse companions they also have the right. Or are you going to dance around with buster clown.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 14, 2019, 07:48:18 AM
So you want to prove that Malik was an apostate, became an apostate crystal clear reports. And what are your thoughts on those who criticise and condemn companions over certain matters from history books just as you have the right to accuse companions they also have the right. Or are you going to dance around with buster clown.
1. I proved from the statement of your scholar that Malik was an apostate .

2. I proved from the hadeeth of Bukhari that Abū bakr fought apostates.

Now if you claim there were exceptions in it, then the burden of proof is on you not me. So your silly tricks by acting dumb won’t wont here, since you claim there were exceptions , then prove it via reliable evidence.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 14, 2019, 01:32:09 PM
So you want to prove that Malik was an apostate, became an apostate crystal clear reports. And what are your thoughts on those who criticise and condemn companions over certain matters from history books just as you have the right to accuse companions they also have the right. Or are you going to dance around with buster clown.

Liar is AVOIDING it still😂😂😂😂

All talk from his rear end😜

Iceman:
“I can prove whatever I claim”

Well prove what you posted about Umar ra.

Iceman:
“?”

This is the reality of shiism all talk and fairytales without a shred of authenticity.

😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 15, 2019, 01:01:21 AM
Liar is AVOIDING it still😂😂😂😂

All talk from his rear end😜

Iceman:
“I can prove whatever I claim”

Well prove what you posted about Umar ra.

Iceman:
“?”

This is the reality of shiism all talk and fairytales without a shred of authenticity.

😂😂😂😂😂

When the Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper Umar said;

"Surely the Prophet is overcome by illness (suggesting that his words should not be taken seriousl, in other words 'don't listen to him'.The Book of Allah is with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us (clearly meaning that thete is no need for what he's going to right).
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 15, 2019, 05:33:18 PM
When the Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper Umar said;

"Surely the Prophet is overcome by illness (suggesting that his words should not be taken seriousl, in other words 'don't listen to him'.The Book of Allah is with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us (clearly meaning that thete is no need for what he's going to right).

Which book did you get that from? Where is the reference?

Why are you ADDING your own meaning in the brackets?

Are you REALLY that simpleminded??

Come on iceman it’s took you months to comeback to answer what I have been asking for and this is your best without ANY reference or proof??

I thought you said to bro sunnah you can back up your claims???

You definitely are living upto the title of being a LIAR.......Alhamdulillah.👍
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 15, 2019, 05:33:46 PM
Liar is AVOIDING it still😂😂😂😂

All talk from his rear end😜

Iceman:
“I can prove whatever I claim”

Well prove what you posted about Umar ra.

Iceman:
“?”

This is the reality of shiism all talk and fairytales without a shred of authenticity.

😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 15, 2019, 06:05:29 PM
Which book did you get that from? Where is the reference?

Why are you ADDING your own meaning in the brackets?

Are you REALLY that simpleminded??

Come on iceman it’s took you months to comeback to answer what I have been asking for and this is your best without ANY reference or proof??

I thought you said to bro sunnah you can back up your claims???

You definitely are living upto the title of being a LIAR.......Alhamdulillah.👍

Done it and proved it many times. But I guess when it comes to dealing with arrogant and ignorants there's not much you can do. The same is with fools and mules 😊

The pen and paper incident has been discussed in detail and in great length. Your stance is to protect those companions who's intentions came clear and make them look like Holy saints. My job is to look at things rationally and with honesty. Not as though I'm against anyone or in favour of anyone. So these discussions are on going because loyalists of certain Companions won't give it a rest. And they can't save them either. Who is wrong is wrong. And what is wrong is wrong 😊
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 15, 2019, 08:53:11 PM
Done it and proved it many times. But I guess when it comes to dealing with arrogant and ignorants there's not much you can do. The same is with fools and mules 😊

The pen and paper incident has been discussed in detail and in great length. Your stance is to protect those companions who's intentions came clear and make them look like Holy saints. My job is to look at things rationally and with honesty. Not as though I'm against anyone or in favour of anyone. So these discussions are on going because loyalists of certain Companions won't give it a rest. And they can't save them either. Who is wrong is wrong. And what is wrong is wrong 😊

Is that it? 😂😂😂😂

You CLOWN you post a fabricated line and when asked to produce the authenticity...........you label us as arrogant s and ignorants😂😂😂😂😂
We are not no followers of cowards you pathetic man where we have to LIE and MAKE UP stuff to look good.😂😂😂😂

That’s YOU😂😂

Iceman:
Umar said don’t listen to him

Me:
Provide proof

Iceman:
?🤔

...........months later iceman replies:
“Surely the prophet is overcome with illness” icemans WORDS ( in other words don’t listen to him).

This is why you are a joke, this is why you no one takes you seriously your iq is that of 1! Near enough to being brain dead 😂😂😂

PATHETIC!

😂😂😂😂

This is icemans LOGIC!
😂😂😂
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 15, 2019, 09:09:06 PM
Just for your eyes only.
Sehih Bukhari,
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114 :
Narrated by 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah.

Sahih Bukhari Chapter on Knowledge, Musnad-e-Ahmad b. Hanbal, Research of Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, trad 2,996, Tabaqaat of Ibn Saad v 2, p 244 Beirut Edition)

Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 32 Say, "Obey Allah and the Prophet, but if they turn back, then verily Allah does not love the disbelievers"

Surah Anfal verse 20: "O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak)."

Go on, try as hard as you like. You won't be able to save him and those who sided with him. 😊

Sahih al-Bukhari as narrated by Ibn 'Abbas:
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.
Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573

The matter is clear mate. Learn to digest it. Then get on with your life. You can't protect the guilty and the wrong no matter how hard you try. 😊
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 16, 2019, 01:13:20 AM
Just for your eyes only.
Sehih Bukhari,
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114 :
Narrated by 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah.

Sahih Bukhari Chapter on Knowledge, Musnad-e-Ahmad b. Hanbal, Research of Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, trad 2,996, Tabaqaat of Ibn Saad v 2, p 244 Beirut Edition)

Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 32 Say, "Obey Allah and the Prophet, but if they turn back, then verily Allah does not love the disbelievers"

Surah Anfal verse 20: "O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak)."

Go on, try as hard as you like. You won't be able to save him and those who sided with him. 😊

Sahih al-Bukhari as narrated by Ibn 'Abbas:
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.
Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573

The matter is clear mate. Learn to digest it. Then get on with your life. You can't protect the guilty and the wrong no matter how hard you try. 😊

So where in ALL that post did Umar ra say.....”don’t listen to him”??

You got caught portraying a LIE which you knew you made up and still cannot provide authenticity for, then you say to other posters “I can back up what I claim”.........you big fat LIAR!😂👍

You got caught with your pants down mate.😂

Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 17, 2019, 04:11:51 PM
So where in ALL that post did Umar ra say.....”don’t listen to him”??

You got caught portraying a LIE which you knew you made up and still cannot provide authenticity for, then you say to other posters “I can back up what I claim”.........you big fat LIAR!😂👍

You got caught with your pants down mate.😂

"You got caught with your pants down mate.😂"

THAT IS DISGUSTING. YOU'VE GONE THAT LOW.
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: muslim720 on June 17, 2019, 05:14:28 PM
Really??? Barf-wale is this true?

Barf-wale?  How about barfeela :P
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 17, 2019, 08:09:16 PM
"You got caught with your pants down mate.😂"

THAT IS DISGUSTING. YOU'VE GONE THAT LOW.

You are the lowest of the low so you deserve a response like this😂👍
Title: Re: Hadith where Ali (RA) confirms he was never promise the Caliphate
Post by: iceman on June 19, 2019, 08:27:45 AM
You are the lowest of the low so you deserve a response like this😂👍

Well what ever manners [removed] taught you, we'll go by that. 😊 Or did you get this Ikhlaq from those companions you are so loyal to 😊

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