Can the way the Shi'ah call upon the Ahl al-Bayt be called Tawasul?

[Ibn Yahya]

Is the way the Shi'ah call on 'Ali and the Ahl al-Bayt (Radiy Allahu 'Anhum) Tawasul?

First of all what is Tawasul. Tawasul is using intermediaries for intercession from Allah.

Lets take a look at some famous Sh'i Du'as.

The first is the shortest and probably most infamous of their Du'as

"Ya 'Ali Maddad"
(O' 'Ali Help)

This is not seeking intercession through intermediaries. This is pure Shirk. It's asking 'Ali for help not asking him to help through Allah 'Aza wa Jal.

The next is an excerpt from Du'a al-Faraj. Now the first part of the Du'a is all good and praising Allah and asking for actual intercession. But then the second part says this:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlnp6je5UUM 2:13-2:43

"Ya Muhammadu Ya 'Aliyu
Ya Aliyu Ya Muhammadu
Ik Fiyani Fa Inakuma Kafiyani
W-Ansurani Fa Inakuma nasirani"

(O' Muhammad, O' Ali
O' Ali, O' Muhammad
Give me enough, because both of you provide sufficiently
and help me, because both of you help and protect.)

Once again showing us the mucked up Shi'ah Tawhid al-Asmati wa s-Sifat.

39:38

And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, " Allah ." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah ? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah ; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers."

65:3

And will provide for him from where he does not expect. And whoever relies upon Allah - then He is sufficient for him. Indeed, Allah will accomplish His purpose. Allah has already set for everything a [decreed] extent.

Now ignoring the giving Allah's traits to the Imams and the Prophet, why isn't this Tawasul? Well because Tawasul is seeking intercession through them. This is just plain asking it from them. Allah isn't even in the picture here, it's just asking the Imams for stuff.  and it's not even asking for intercession at that.

The final Du'a I'll look at is known as Nadi Ali. Which goes as

"Nadi 'Aliyyan
Mudhharal Aja'ib
Tajidhu Awnan Laka Fi n-Nawa'ib
Kullu Hammin wa Ghammin Sayanjali
Bi Wilayatika ya 'Aliyu ya 'Aliyu"

(Call upon 'Ali
He is the Manifestor of Wonders
You Shall find him helping you in your troubles
All grief and sorrow shall be removed
By your authority O' Ali, O' Ali )

For a second time we see the messed up Shi'ah Tawhid al-Asmati wa s-Sifat.

35:34

And they will say, "Praise to Allah , who has removed from us [all] sorrow. Indeed, our Lord is Forgiving and Appreciative -

To conclude most of what the Shi'ah call "Tawasul" is just asking the Imams for things. Not seeking Shafa'ah.

[Furkan]

Nice.

[Muwahhid]

Technically even if they said something like "Oh Ali can you ask Allah to give me such and such", wouldn't that still be shirk since they're implying that Ali [r] can hear their call and therefore giving him the attribute of being السميع, the all hearing ?? An attribute that belongs only to Allah.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but actual tawassul would be to ask someone who is alive and can actually hear you to make du'a for you.

[Ibn Yahya]

Technically even if they said something like "Oh Ali can you ask Allah to give me such and such", wouldn't that still be shirk since they're implying that Ali [r] can hear their call and therefore giving him the attribute of being السميع, the all hearing ?? An attribute that belongs only to Allah.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but actual tawassul would be to ask someone who is alive and can actually hear you to make du'a for you.

I would agree. But the point is that if they think Tawasul includes calling on dead people then they're still not doing Tawasul.

[Furkan]

Quote from: Muwahhid on August 10, 2015, 09:54:17 PM

Technically even if they said something like "Oh Ali can you ask Allah to give me such and such", wouldn't that still be shirk since they're implying that Ali [r] can hear their call and therefore giving him the attribute of being السميع, the all hearing ?? An attribute that belongs only to Allah.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but actual tawassul would be to ask someone who is alive and can actually hear you to make du'a for you.

Not shirk if you believe that the angels take this to the person in the grave. And you are asking help from Allah, not the one in the grave.

[Ebn Hussein]

Technically even if they said something like "Oh Ali can you ask Allah to give me such and such", wouldn't that still be shirk since they're implying that Ali [r] can hear their call and therefore giving him the attribute of being السميع, the all hearing ?? An attribute that belongs only to Allah.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but actual tawassul would be to ask someone who is alive and can actually hear you to make du'a for you.

Of course that would be Shirk since it would necessitate that Ali or any of their Imams are like the All-Hearing (As-Sami) and Al Seeing (Al-Basir), i.e. Allah.

Allah has given nobody the authority of his UNIQUE attribute of being ALL-HEARING and ALL-SEEING, yet the Rafidah (and other extremists) claim that you can (or should as they say!) call Ali, Fatimah, Hussein even non-Imams like Abal-Fadhl, Zaynab etc. from:

- Any place
- Any time
- Any language

So millions of people, in thousand of language and accents can directly ask Ali 'to ask Allah', in fact they can ask Ali (pray to him) DIRECTLY (as many of their Du'as and fatwa of their Ayatullats state) for anything and this justified under the pretext of 'tawassul'! As if throwing around with Shar'i/Islamic terminologies will turn shirk/paganism into tawheed/Islam, this is madness. Fact is, by necessitaty they are attributing attributes that belong to Allah only to the creation, something that Allah has never authorised, not to an Angel, nor devil nor human, nor Prophet, not even to the final Messenger (peace be upon him and his family) who according to clear-cut verses of the Qur'an knew only very restricted bits of the unseen (and only due to him being a Prophet!), to the extent that he did not know the reality of the nature of the very inhabitants of his relatively small town:

- Who the hypocrites in his very town were (yet, the Rafidah such as Kulayni claim that the Imams know what is in the heart of man, they know all drops in the ocean, and they have knowledge about every leaf that drops from the trees ...)@

The Quran says, “And among the desert people (A'arab, not the Sahaba who were mostly city dwellers i.e. 'ARAB) around you, O believers, there are some hypocrites, and so are there some among the people of Madina. They exaggerate and persist in hypocrisy. Even you (Prophet Muhammad) know them not. We know them; We shall punish them twice and thereafter they shall be brought to a great, horrible torment.” 

There are many more examples such as:

- The Prophet (saws) wasn't informed about the stories of all Prophet (peace be upon them all), yet the Shias claim their Imams possess the KNOWLEDGE of artifacts, rings, swords etc. of ALL Prophets.

- He wasn't aware that his wife was left in the desert (story of Ifk)

etc.

Yet, the Twelvers claim that you can call upon his progeny from anywhere, anytime in any language, simply due to the fact that martyrs are alive (they always misuse that Ayah). Well, news flash, the PROPHET himself while being alive never had the power nor authority of hearing, listening and replying to millions of callers (only the SALAWAT, after his demise and these are conveyed by an ANGEL i.e. a medium, he himself can't hear, let alone thousands of different languages), so it is not about dead, alive or tawassul, it is about attributing the most unique attributes of Allah to the creation (hence even those Sunni scholars who do allow Tawassul with the Prophet say that it is very restricted, only next to his grave in ARABIC and asking him for shafa'ah, nothing else) under the pathetic excuse of intercession.

[Ebn Hussein]

Quote from: Muwahhid on August 10, 2015, 09:54:17 PM

Technically even if they said something like "Oh Ali can you ask Allah to give me such and such", wouldn't that still be shirk since they're implying that Ali [r] can hear their call and therefore giving him the attribute of being السميع, the all hearing ?? An attribute that belongs only to Allah.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but actual tawassul would be to ask someone who is alive and can actually hear you to make du'a for you.

Not shirk if you believe that the angels take this to the person in the grave. And you are asking help from Allah, not the one in the grave.

Next one will come and say what Sistani said in regards of asking the Ahlul-Bayt for Rizq (!) is not shirk if one only believes that it's by the permission of Allah and that angels provide the Rizq to the Ahlul-Bayt, then the Ahlul-Bayt provide it to the one who asked. In the Shari'ah we don't make this far-fetched excuses, it opens the door for every Zindiq and Mushrik to somehow justify his shirk. Nobody in the creation has the authority to listen to millions of prayers, at any time, at any place, in any language, not even our Prophet (saws) was granted this (because it is a unique attribute of Allah, Allah will share it with nobody), let alone Imams, Shaykhs and what not.

[Ibn Yahya]

Technically even if they said something like "Oh Ali can you ask Allah to give me such and such", wouldn't that still be shirk since they're implying that Ali [r] can hear their call and therefore giving him the attribute of being السميع, the all hearing ?? An attribute that belongs only to Allah.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but actual tawassul would be to ask someone who is alive and can actually hear you to make du'a for you.

Of course that would be Shirk since it would necessitate that Ali or any of their Imams are like the All-Hearing (As-Sami) and Al Seeing (Al-Basir), i.e. Allah.

Allah has given nobody the authority of his UNIQUE attribute of being ALL-HEARING and ALL-SEEING, yet the Rafidah (and other extremists) claim that you can (or should as they say!) call Ali, Fatimah, Hussein even non-Imams like Abal-Fadhl, Zaynab etc. from:

- Any place
- Any time
- Any language

So millions of people, in thousand of language and accents can directly ask Ali 'to ask Allah', in fact they can ask Ali (pray to him) DIRECTLY (as many of their Du'as and fatwa of their Ayatullats state) for anything and this justified under the pretext of 'tawassul'! As if throwing around with Shar'i/Islamic terminologies will turn shirk/paganism into tawheed/Islam, this is madness. Fact is, by necessitaty they are attributing attributes that belong to Allah only to the creation, something that Allah has never authorised, not to an Angel, nor devil nor human, nor Prophet, not even to the final Messenger (peace be upon him and his family) who according to clear-cut verses of the Qur'an knew only very restricted bits of the unseen (and only due to him being a Prophet!), to the extent that he did not know the reality of the nature of the very inhabitants of his relatively small town:

- Who the hypocrites in his very town were (yet, the Rafidah such as Kulayni claim that the Imams know what is in the heart of man, they know all drops in the ocean, and they have knowledge about every leaf that drops from the trees ...)@

The Quran says, “And among the desert people (A'arab, not the Sahaba who were mostly city dwellers i.e. 'ARAB) around you, O believers, there are some hypocrites, and so are there some among the people of Madina. They exaggerate and persist in hypocrisy. Even you (Prophet Muhammad) know them not. We know them; We shall punish them twice and thereafter they shall be brought to a great, horrible torment.” 

There are many more examples such as:

- The Prophet (saws) wasn't informed about the stories of all Prophet (peace be upon them all), yet the Shias claim their Imams possess the KNOWLEDGE of artifacts, rings, swords etc. of ALL Prophets.

- He wasn't aware that his wife was left in the desert (story of Ifk)

etc.

Yet, the Twelvers claim that you can call upon his progeny from anywhere, anytime in any language, simply due to the fact that martyrs are alive (they always misuse that Ayah). Well, news flash, the PROPHET himself while being alive never had the power nor authority of hearing, listening and replying to millions of callers (only the SALAWAT, after his demise and these are conveyed by an ANGEL i.e. a medium, he himself can't hear, let alone thousands of different languages), so it is not about dead, alive or tawassul, it is about attributing the most unique attributes of Allah to the creation (hence even those Sunni scholars who do allow Tawassul with the Prophet say that it is very restricted, only next to his grave in ARABIC and asking him for shafa'ah, nothing else) under the pathetic excuse of intercession.

they have a narration in al-Kafi that the Imam tells something new to the imama every friday

[Hani]

They might as well be christian catholics, they believe in the power of dead saints etc...

[Hadrami]

They might as well be christian catholics, they believe in the power of dead saints etc...

and the number of those dead saints & their shrines keep increasing every year. Good for local business