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Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?

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iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #340 on: January 29, 2018, 03:21:26 AM »
While I agree that it is awesome that he rejected the 12er position and adopted the position of ibn Abbas رضي الله عنه, I still think it's much safer to go all out and take the position of Imam Omar and Imam Ali رضي الله عنهما as their position is much more likely to be correct.

Either case, Alhamdulilah, we all agree that Mut'ah, at best, is equivelant to eating pork when a person has no other choice and that the ahadeeth that 12ers narrate about the virtues of Mut'ah are 100% fabricated.  :)

This thread is designated to paint a bad picture about Shiaism by picking things up from Shia sources at random then taking them out of context and giving it your own interpretation and meaning that you desire. Who are we trying to fool.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #341 on: January 29, 2018, 03:51:57 AM »
Mutual Agreement, according to Shia source.

Once you have mutually agreed that entering a Mutah contract is what you both want you need to discuss 1) The time period for which your Mutah marriage will last, 2) The Mahr 3) Any other conditions you may want to add.

1) You need to mutually agree in clear terms how long the initial Mutah contract will last. This needs to be clear and should not be obscure - because as soon as the time runs out you are no longer halal for each other unless you renew the Mutah and repeat this procedure again.

2) You need to mutually agree on a Mahr. Mahr is the gift that the man gives to his wife as part of the contract. It can be anything, and it is better if it is not extravagant in its value. Some hadith report that some of the Companions of the Prophet would enter into Mutah with a handful of dates or wheat as the Mahr.

3) You can agree to other conditions if you two so wish. It is not obligatory to do this, however, once you do agree to any conditions at this point it becomes obligatory for you to abide by them once you are in the Mutah marriage.

Now if you take a look and notice the above term 'you need to mutually agree'. Mutah is a type of marriage and it is conducted upon the agreement of two people.

You don't cone to a Shia Scholar or religious person and ask him about Mutah then question him if he has a woman from his household or near relations or if he knows anyone.

Just a note and advice to some Jahils. It's an agreement between two individuals. It is recommended according to Shia Scholars because of the bad name given to Mutah and how it was down graded and devalued by rulers after Muhammad (s).

Mutah within the Muslim community is seen as something disgraceful and dispicable because of Suni Scholars and their lack of understanding about Mutah. Just because this ruler banned it then one must worship this rulers ruling rather than looking into why it was banned and by whom.

If Muhammad (s) banned it then what was the reason and purpose for the ban and when was it banned? They don't have a damn clue, they don't have the faintest and they're here to discuss and debate. 😀

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #342 on: January 29, 2018, 02:49:34 PM »
I'm not confused. My question is simple and it's about Mutah,  why did the Prophet (s) prohibit Mutah?

Can't answer? Too afraid or too hesitant? No need to start another thread for this.

You’re asking stuff that is not the topic of the thread. Hence the need to open a new thread for that.
No one is scared to answer. Its about sticking to the topic.

You have failed to prove from shia sources that mutah is for exceptional circumstances.

So its clear in 12er sect that mutah isn’t just for exceptional circumstances.

Unless some other shia posters wants to prove otherwise, this topic is concluded.


iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #343 on: January 29, 2018, 06:44:36 PM »
You’re asking stuff that is not the topic of the thread. Hence the need to open a new thread for that.
No one is scared to answer. Its about sticking to the topic.

You have failed to prove from shia sources that mutah is for exceptional circumstances.

So its clear in 12er sect that mutah isn’t just for exceptional circumstances.

Unless some other shia posters wants to prove otherwise, this topic is concluded.

Mutah isn't openly and commonly practiced within the Shia community, not because it's taboo but because it's practiced by only some due to exceptional circumstances. For a known and clear fact you don't need any sources.

It was permissible by the Prophet (s) and again it wasn't practiced even during the Prophet's (s) time openly and commonly. It was only practiced due to exceptional circumstances. This is also a known and clear fact for which one doesn't need sources.

Go and spend your time doing something useful.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #344 on: January 29, 2018, 07:03:29 PM »
Mutah isn't openly and commonly practiced within the Shia community, not because it's taboo but because it's practiced by only some due to exceptional circumstances. For a known and clear fact you don't need any sources.

It was permissible by the Prophet (s) and again it wasn't practiced even during the Prophet's (s) time openly and commonly. It was only practiced due to exceptional circumstances. This is also a known and clear fact for which one doesn't need sources.

Go and spend your time doing something useful.

So you admit that you have no proof.

Thanks.

Case closed.

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #345 on: January 29, 2018, 08:16:53 PM »
This thread is designated to paint a bad picture about Shiaism by picking things up from Shia sources at random then taking them out of context and giving it your own interpretation and meaning that you desire. Who are we trying to fool.

This is categorically incorrect, the thread only paints 12ers in a negative light because not all Shi'is practice Mut'ah.

Mutah isn't openly and commonly practiced within the Shia community, not because it's taboo but because it's practiced by only some due to exceptional circumstances. For a known and clear fact you don't need any sources.

1) The Shiachatters believe it is due to it being taboo in their community.  Since I've never seen any Muslim community, 12er or non-12er, openly practice Mut'ah, I'm going with it is taboo.
2) We don't need evidence or sources on whether Mut'ah is something that was practiced in exceptional circumstances, we need sources that Mut'ah is understood that way according to the 12er Madhhab.  This is the point that seems to be going over your head, but I personally believe you are purposefully ignoring.  We don't care how Mut'ah was practiced, or how you intrepret it or anything; we care about 12er Scholars actually saying what you are saying.  We told you already, if you want to take the position of ibn Abbass رضي الله عنه then cool, you have taken the position of a great Companion and member of Ahl al-Bayt, but we're going to take the position of Omar and Ali رضي الله عنهما as it is more likely that their position is correct.  That leaves us with a 3rd view, the one adopted by the 12ers which neither you or I agree with.

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It was permissible by the Prophet (s) and again it wasn't practiced even during the Prophet's (s) time openly and commonly. It was only practiced due to exceptional circumstances. This is also a known and clear fact for which one doesn't need sources.

We need sources that that is the 12er opinion.  Just wanted to reiterate that.  If you don't agree with the 12er view, then we want someone who agrees with the 12er view to come and have a discussion here.

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Go and spend your time doing something useful.

Having this discussion with you isn't useful?  Why do you suppose that is?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #346 on: January 29, 2018, 08:20:09 PM »
Just a note and advice to some Jahils.

سلامًا.

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It's an agreement between two individuals. It is recommended according to Shia Scholars because of the bad name given to Mutah and how it was down graded and devalued by rulers after Muhammad (s).

1) Can you provide sources that the 12er scholars changed the ruling of Mut'ah from Mubah to Mustahabb because of the bad name given to Mut'ah?  This is an amazing thing that I never heard before.
2) Do you believe the ahadeeth pertaining to the merits of Mut'ah are also made up?  Particularly the one about doing it 4 times will put you on the same status as the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم?

Please, please, please answer  :)
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #347 on: February 01, 2018, 10:07:51 PM »
So you admit that you have no proof.

Thanks.

Case closed.

What more proof do you want. Your argument is, leave this, that and the other and just give us an answer that we're looking for, which suits us and what we'd like to hear. That's your argument and that's why this is dragging on.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #348 on: February 01, 2018, 10:40:52 PM »
This is categorically incorrect, the thread only paints 12ers in a negative light because not all Shi'is practice Mut'ah.

1) The Shiachatters believe it is due to it being taboo in their community.  Since I've never seen any Muslim community, 12er or non-12er, openly practice Mut'ah, I'm going with it is taboo.
2) We don't need evidence or sources on whether Mut'ah is something that was practiced in exceptional circumstances, we need sources that Mut'ah is understood that way according to the 12er Madhhab.  This is the point that seems to be going over your head, but I personally believe you are purposefully ignoring.  We don't care how Mut'ah was practiced, or how you intrepret it or anything; we care about 12er Scholars actually saying what you are saying.  We told you already, if you want to take the position of ibn Abbass رضي الله عنه then cool, you have taken the position of a great Companion and member of Ahl al-Bayt, but we're going to take the position of Omar and Ali رضي الله عنهما as it is more likely that their position is correct.  That leaves us with a 3rd view, the one adopted by the 12ers which neither you or I agree with.

We need sources that that is the 12er opinion.  Just wanted to reiterate that.  If you don't agree with the 12er view, then we want someone who agrees with the 12er view to come and have a discussion here.

Having this discussion with you isn't useful?  Why do you suppose that is?

You said;

"This is categorically incorrect, the thread only paints 12ers in a negative light because not all Shi'is practice Mut'ah."

Mutah isn't something that is there to be practiced just for the sake of it. But in fact it is there for those who feel the need and urge. Those who face certain situations and conditions. I just don't know how many times this has to be repeated.

"Not all Shias practice Mutah", let me correct this for you. Only those engage in Mutah who feel the need to and have the urge based on the situation and condition they face.

What does 'Taboo' mean? Define it for me and we'll take it from there. Side note: Mutah isn't TABOO within the Shia community, it's just not practiced openly and commonly. And neither was it during the Prophet's (s) time.

I've made it clear to you and I will make it clear again, don't bring in something written in a book by a Shia Scholar or any statement or Fatwa of a Shia Scholar and start to give your own understanding and explanation. Ask and get to know first rather than banging on ignorantly about it.

There is no separate or different view adopted by the 12r Shias about Mutah. We believe in and follow the Messenger (s). Mutah was made permissible by the Prophet (s) for a reason and purpose, and that reason and purpose was certain situations and conditions some individuals faced. And therefore Mutah was practiced by some due to exceptional circumstances. That is exactly the 12r view.

Before you invite anyone other to discuss, first try and get to know and understand what the 12r view is. I can put forward a hell of a lot from Suni authentic books or statements or Fatwas from Suni Scholars but some of you have and will easily say, "well we don't accept that". So what am I suppose to make of this, that you don't agree with the Suni view?

What applies to you applies to us and that is what is general. If a Shia Scholar says something, be it in the face of Fatwa or just a statement based on his thought, opinion or point of view, it is not necessary that this is the view of the 12r Mazhab and the entire 12r community.

Even Scholars such as Mujtahids and Ayatollahs differ. And this also applies to you, so what are you trying to prove here? You said; "Having this discussion with you isn't useful?  Why do you suppose that is?" Because you're trying to force me to accept what you believe in about the 12rs. You guys are not from this community and you guys don't even like and think much of this Mazhab and it's community, and you guys go around looking for bits and pieces you can find and want us to accept that this is the 12r Mazhab and community. This is what the problem is.

Ibrahim

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #349 on: February 01, 2018, 11:00:33 PM »
GreatChineseFall, my apologies for the delayed response; I've been busy since returning and more to the point mentally preoccupied.

In my last post I tried to find common ground and to bring the discussion to a partial resolution. However, in your reply you appear to have overlooked all areas in which we could have found concurrence and instead focused on an argumentative approach with multiple quotation boxes.

I don't believe this format is helpful to either of us or to anyone viewing, as I stated when I first started posting here (post #168 on page 9). Nor do I believe it is the best response to the command of Allah(swt) in the Holy Qur'an:

ٱدْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِٱلْحِكْمَةِ وَٱلْمَوْعِظَةِ ٱلْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَٰدِلْهُم بِٱلَّتِى هِىَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِۦ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِٱلْمُهْتَدِينَ

 Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and debate with them in the most dignified manner. Your Lord is aware of those who stray from His path, and He is aware of those who are guided. (16:125)

All the online discussions I've had which turned out to be productive (usually debating atheists or Christians, not other Muslims) were those in which common ground was sought - and indeed obtained; the likely alternative is endless argumentation.

Since you have required me to respond in your chosen fashion, I will oblige.

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This is not addressing the issue. If I point out that what you believe is problematic, then there is no need to mention cases where it wouldn't be problematic. It is enough if there are cases (which aren't too unusal or fantastical) where it is problematic. A very simple example is if a man in a Christian marriage converts and fears his wife's influence on the children, he can either continue the marriage or divorce her. It can't be that both these options are disliked.

Your example pertains to all Muslims, so I don't see it as a meaningful point of dispute; and it can in fact be that both options are disliked, whereby we implement the principle of the lesser of two evils, which again is held by all Muslims:

https://daruliftaa.com/node/5909

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=360697

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Proof? How? And why? Because here it starts to get even more confusing for me. When I told you that a permanent marriage with a Christian is forbidden, you told me that it's possible but highly discouraged. However, a temporary marriage is totally fine if you are unmarried. I told you why, you told me, this gives the woman time to learn about Islam and eventually embrace Islam. So far so good.

Then we have married men, they are also as per obligatory precaution(Sistani) not allowed to marry a Christian. In addition, they are absolutely not allowed to temporarily marry a Christian without the consent of the first wife and even with her consent it is not allowed as per obligatory precaution(Sistani). The problem is that normally the first wife can't prevent the husband to marry a second Muslim wife permanently and if she consents there is no problem at all. But the whole idea of temporarily marrying a Christian according to you was to give her time to convert and marry her permanently as a Muslim wife, so how can the first wife stop this, even worse how can it be forbidden even with her consent? Especially if the husband is away from his first wife in a foreign country and especially if he stipulates that no intercourse will place, how can this effect the rights of his first wife?

I did not say that "the whole idea of marrying a Christan woman was to give her time to convert and marry her permanently as a Muslim wife". On the contrary, if you read the aforementioned post of mine (#168) I very clearly bring in an alternative relating to physical needs.

We are discussing a scholarly position and the "proof" of that position lies in the methodology the relevant scholars have used to arrive at their fatawa. To my understanding, reasons for the prohibition of a man with a Muslim wife taking a Christian wife include the inherent rights and dignity of the Muslim wife over the presence of a wife of another religion.

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Do you disagree with the last sentence? What rights and obligations are obtained besides these especially if contraceptives are used to prevent pregnancy?

Again I will say that a similar claim could be made against the Islamic concept of marriage on the whole. To recap, your contention is:
"Suffice to say that if one were to marry without stating any conditions, many rights and obligations would solidify due to absence of stating any conditions. Mut'ah on the other hand, if one were to contract that without stating any specific conditions it would result in hardly anything else besides conjugal rights and financial compensation.".

Since a large number of the actual Islamic (as opposed to cultural) rights of nikah are conjugal and financial in nature, you are taking issue here with something which applies to Islam itself. Your nebulous reference to what you believe would "solidify" under nikah may also be possible under mut'ah.

Yes, mut'ah generally does have different social allocations, though I believe that the way you're trying to articulate this is self-refuting.

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None of these definitions of promiscuity are correct, it is not indiscriminate sexual behaviour ignoring religious duties or boundaries nor is it mere access to numerous sexual partners. Again, for the sake of not turning this in a semantic discussion, it doesn't even matter that much. I defined it clearly and asked you a question regarding it. As long as the question is clear then the correct definition is of minor concern.

First of all, I defined casual sex as intercourse for the sole purpose of satisfying sexual needs without any commitment or attachment to the other partner and then I defined promiscuity as frequent casual sex with different partners where you are indifferent on a personal level to the choice of your partner. My question to you regarding this is, does the fact that mut'ah is allowed according to you allow you to be promiscuous and do you have an issue with this?

I don't think that my definition of the word "promiscuity" is at fault. Perhaps we're from different English-speaking cultures and have different understandings of the connotations of the word.

My response to your question is that the permissibility of mut'ah does not correspond to an acceptance of promiscuity, because mut'ah necessarily involves respecting the rights and boundaries laid down by Allah(swt).

It neither takes place "without any commitment or attachment" nor with the participants being "indifferent on a personal level to the choice of your partner".

Your way of looking at this and the way in which you formulate your questions derives from your outlook. As I have suggested previously, it would be hard for any of us to claim that we have an outlook which is purely Islamic and untainted by culture, personal experience, personal desire, personal opinion and so on.

Can you be sure that your approach to this subject comes only from Islam? If not, isn't it perhaps better to simply refrain from mut'ah yourself if you disagree with it, rather than trying to find faults with its provision?


As stated, I tried to find ground for positive resolution between us in my last post and it seems I was unsuccessful.
As a different approach, I propose that we might find a way forward by framing a couple of key points as deductive syllogisms.

I will try to frame these syllogisms in a way that we can each agree to them without compromising our respective positions. There are two premises and a conclusion. If we can agree on the premises, the conclusion should be sound and an agreement can be reached. So as for the first one:

*All Muslims agree that the Holy Prophet(saws) never instructed to anything inherenty immoral

*The Holy Prophet(saws) instructed to mut'ah

*Therefore, mut'ah is not inherently immoral

I have included the word "inherently" to mitigate the disparity between our schools of thought as to the current legality of mut'ah. If you can find a way in which the premises must necessarily be changed, then the syllogism will no longer hold. However, if we can agree that the premises are sound, then the conclusion should be sound and a large part of our dispute can be resolved.

I will form a second syllogism from your statement that you don't believe Muslims are embarrassed by their carnal desires - a statement in which I find both inaccuracy and the semblance of common ground, so I will opt for the latter:

*Carnal desire, in itself, isn't something we need be embarrassed by

*A function of mut'ah is to provide a halal outlet for carnal desire

*Therefore, this function of mut'ah isn't something we need be embarrassed by

Again, I have worded this so as to find ground for agreement. Note that the wording pertains to the issue of perceived embarrassment (which has been a recurring theme on this thread), not the halal nature of mut'ah, which we already know we disagree on.
And so again, point out anything in the premises you think must necessarily be changed; otherwise we have the basis for another significant point of concurrence.

This can then be built upon to provide a comprehensive framework within which to interpret our differing views on the subject.

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #350 on: February 01, 2018, 11:10:25 PM »
You said;

Alhamdulilah, you're back!  I thought we might not get to see you anymore.

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"This is categorically incorrect, the thread only paints 12ers in a negative light because not all Shi'is practice Mut'ah."

Mutah isn't something that is there to be practiced just for the sake of it. But in fact it is there for those who feel the need and urge. Those who face certain situations and conditions. I just don't know how many times this has to be repeated.

Akhi, I say this because I truly believe you are my Muslim brother and I am sincerely advising you; you really have comprehension issues.  This is how this conversation has gone so far:

1) You say that this thread paints Shi'as in a negative light.
2) I say no, it only paints 12ers in a negative light since other Shi'i sects don't practice.
3) You proceed to response with, "Mutah isn't something that is there to be practiced just for the sake of it. But in fact it is there for those who feel the need and urge. Those who face certain situations and conditions."

How on Allah's green earth is that a response to what I said?

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"Not all Shias practice Mutah", let me correct this for you. Only those engage in Mutah who feel the need to and have the urge based on the situation and condition they face.

What?  I don't even know what this means?  I don't believe there are people who practice Mut'ah who don't feel the "need to and have the urge"; who on earth thinks that?  I believe if you'd stop being so emotional you wouldn't write so many non sequitur.

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What does 'Taboo' mean? Define it for me and we'll take it from there

LOL, I already defined it earlier this thread?  But here it is again:

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a social or religious custom prohibiting or forbidding discussion of a particular practice or forbidding association with a particular person, place, or thing.

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Side note: Mutah isn't TABOO within the Shia community, it's just not practiced openly and commonly. And neither was it during the Prophet's (s) time.

Disagree; I've already shown plenty of quotes not to mention the numerous threads that pop every week on Shiachat.  It is considered taboo in your community no matter how many times you try to claim otherwise.  The fact that you can't find any evidence to substantiate your claim shows that what you are saying is not true.  If it was true you would have evidence.  Side note: ranting and raving does not constitute evidences.

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I've made it clear to you and I will make it clear again, don't bring in something written in a book by a Shia Scholar or any statement or Fatwa of a Shia Scholar and start to give your own understanding and explanation. Ask and get to know first rather than banging on ignorantly about it.

Why would I ask you instead of going to a Shi'a authority figure?  That is the strangest logic I have ever heard.  Unless you can provide evidence for what you are saying (like I said, ranting and raving is not evidence) from a leading Shi'i authority, then that means this is just your personal opinion.  We are here to discuss the 12er Madhhab; not Ameen/iceman's madhhab.  I will reemphasize once more; your opinion is not evidence.  Evidence is "Ayatollah so and so says that Mut'ah is restricted."  Anything else is just you ranting.

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There is no separate or different view adopted by the 12r Shias about Mutah.

I agree, they all believe it is mustahabb unrestrictedly.  There is a difference between your opinion (the opinion of ibn Abbass رضي الله عنه) and the 12er opinion though.  You don't seem to be aware of this.

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We believe in and follow the Messenger (s). Mutah was made permissible by the Prophet (s) for a reason and purpose, and that reason and purpose was certain situations and conditions some individuals faced. And therefore Mutah was practiced by some due to exceptional circumstances. That is exactly the 12r view.

Prove it.  Side note: I know that you can't, since I know your madhhab better than you.

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Before you invite anyone other to discuss, first try and get to know and understand what the 12r view is. I can put forward a hell of a lot from Suni authentic books or statements or Fatwas from Suni Scholars but some of you have and will easily say, "well we don't accept that". So what am I suppose to make of this, that you don't agree with the Suni view?

All we want from you is ONE Shi'i scholar from any time period supporting your view.

In addition, your analogy is faulty.  For your analogy to make sense, I would have to reject every leading Sunni authority and just rant and rave and say this is the Sunni position.  Unless I can provide evidence that there are Sunni scholars that think like me, I have no right to say that this is the "Sunni" position.  That's all we want from you.  Like I said however, we know this can't be provided, since you yourself said, the 12er scholars claim that Mut'ah is actually mustahabb, not restricted, and therefore, there isn't a single Shi'i authority that you can use to support you.  Since you don't have anyone, we're going to have to go with Ayatollah Khamini's fatwa (which you posted, not me) and state that Mut'ah is unrestrictedly mustahabb in the 12er madhhab.

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What applies to you applies to us and that is what is general. If a Shia Scholar says something, be it in the face of Fatwa or just a statement based on his thought, opinion or point of view, it is not necessary that this is the view of the 12r Mazhab and the entire 12r community.

When all of them say the same thing and nothing goes against them; then yes, that is the madhhab.  Notice, I'm not bringing in fatwas of Yaser al-Habib and Allahayari; in fact I didn't bring in any fatwas.  We are waiting for you to bring in a fatwa which contradicts the fatwa of Ayatollah Khamini.

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Even Scholars such as Mujtahids and Ayatollahs differ. And this also applies to you, so what are you trying to prove here? You said; "Having this discussion with you isn't useful?  Why do you suppose that is?" Because you're trying to force me to accept what you believe in about the 12rs. You guys are not from this community and you guys don't even like and think much of this Mazhab and it's community, and you guys go around looking for bits and pieces you can find and want us to accept that this is the 12r Mazhab and community. This is what the problem is.

You don't have accept anything.  Just like we don't have to accept what you have to say.  The difference is, the Ayatollahs and the 12er community is with us.  Mut'ah is unrestrictedly mustahabb in the madhhab, and it is a taboo subject in the community.  Unless you have some counter evidence, you jumping up and down claiming "it was practiced and made halal... but for what reasons?" is just a waste of time and it only makes you seem completely desperate.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Ibrahim

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #351 on: February 02, 2018, 12:13:22 AM »
Muslim720 thanks for your post. You've brought another unreferenced hadith and so I'm afraid you've left me with little I can say.
Even if you bring fully referenced ahadith, it will not have the effect you appear to desire, since Islamic tenets and 'aqa'id are almost never derived from single or minimal hadith sources.

Your report of what the Shi'i scholar at the masjid told you about the status of the Imams(as) is not something I've heard myself, though I will repeat that it's to your credit that you engage with the brothers there in the first place.

If you would like to know the purity of the Shi'i concept of Tawhid, I would recommend you to read the Sahifa Sajjadiya of Imam Zayn al Abideen(as). Do not underestimate the value of what I'm about to link you:

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-sajjadiyya-imam-zain-ul-abideen

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #352 on: February 02, 2018, 01:10:06 AM »
More examples of Shiachatters discussing Mut'ah being a taboo in their community.  I wonder if this is not a "real" Shia community:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234993813-isnt-mutah-haram-in-a-sense/

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Look, You can't go to a girl and say: "Hey Babe, wanna do Mutah?' Your either gonna get whacked or her older brother is going to size you up really good. You would first have to approach her, charm her, court her, get her number. Spend a month+ with her. Then she will want to go for a Mutah with you. But this comes down in "Female seduction" which is Haram in Islam. If seduction is haram then how the hell do you get a Mutah? :dry:

Very good question; the whole basis to doing Mut'ah is practically impossible; the only womenthat would agree to doing it without any sort of courtship are women who Qa'im (whose opinions on Shi'asm I would take any day of the week over yours, iceman) earlier were complaining about.

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It's not haram in any way shapre or form, it's just been made next to impossible by the munafiqeen that make up the vast majority of the community in regards to this issue. The community has made an essential thing a taboo. It's absurd.

This post got five likes; but what do I know, I'm not part of the 12er community.

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You have a point.....my husband and I did mutah with permission of everyone but it was a non physical thing. We only knew each other a week and I was staying with my mother in law and he was there etc etc etc. Right after that we permanently married.....it was done to solve distance problems.

This has nothing to do with Mut'ah being taboo, and everything to do with Mut'ah being redundant.  What is the point of Mut'ah in this scenario?  What ease did this provide that couldn't have been provided with a regular marriage?  I'd like ANYONE'S input on this (since I know Ameen/Iceman won't respond).

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And I don't think it's simply a matter of the issue being taboo. It's a matter of people not wanting their daughters to get taken advantage of. Would you entrust your daughter to some dude you barely know?

What's funny is: I wouldn't trust MYSELF to a woman who barely knew me who was willing to get involved in a Mut'ah marriage.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #353 on: February 02, 2018, 01:22:07 AM »
Iceman:

As brother Khaled has said, your position is that of a minority of sunni scholars including Ibn Abbas.
It is not the position of the 12ers as you have failed to provide one single evidence from the 12ers to support your view.
InshAllah you will adopt more positions closer to ahlus sunnah than 12ers.

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #354 on: February 02, 2018, 01:30:51 AM »
While there is no reason to post all this, as everyone knows Mut'ah is taboo in Shi'i communities (as it would be in any community except for pre-Islamic Arabia), I am just posting these so Ameen/Iceman can't squirm out of responding to it.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024238-is-mutah-frowned-upon-in-your-culture/

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I have heard that mutah is the worst kind of halal. Like divorce for example, its halal but the worst kind of halal (أبغض الحلال). Can someone please confirm this? 

The reason I ask is because I suggested to one of my cousin who got divorced recently for the third time, to get married mutah since she cannot have kids and is in her 40's. And also her family are really furious with her because of her recent divorce. She however (and i was shocked to hear this) said that mutah is extremely frowned upon and its embarrassing and people normally do it in secret , and according to her if she got married mutah she will not be able to enjoy the relationship because she would never be able to go out in public with her husband.

Could you imagine how a real pious woman would feel if she knew she was essentially married for a set-period of time?  All for the sake of Tamattu'?

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Muslims look down on it, but non-Muslims do not.  That's because mutah is basically halal dating - it lacks the stability and family structure of permanent marriage. 

Halal dating, huh?  Doesn't sound like there is much restriction in that.

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Pakistani shias are as anti mutah as can be.

Aren't you Pakistani?  I wonder if she's not part of the Pakistani 12er Community and therefore doesn't know.

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So are arab shias. And some believe its the worst kind of halal...as in halal but should be avoided just like divorce should be avoided as much as possible. And not everyone marries mutah for sex only, people do it for other reasons. Like my cousin would want to do it to have a companion and someone to share her life with , go to restaurant, travel...etc. But she cant unfortunately because she would be disgraced by society.

There's no doubt that Arab Shi'as consider it the worst kind of halal, but they certainly see it as MUCH MUCH worse than divorce.

But what this sister says here is so puzzling; why can't her cousin just marry normally and not set a time period on her marriage if its for the sake of sharing her life with someone else?  Wouldn't a normal marriage be a much better alternative?

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It is the 'Ulama that are responsible to shape the culture of the religious community. The problem is our 'Ulama get paid by the religious community so they avoid bringing up topics that upset their employers and mut'ah is one of these topics.

Pakistani 'Ulama are notoriously dependent on people's praise to earn their salaries. That is why most do not say a word in favor of mut'ah publicly but they themselves would not be hesitant to practice it themselves privately. If this is not hypocrisy then what is

الله أكبر ولله الحمد!  If only this guy had posted here from the beginning, we would have gotten our answer and we wouldn't have needed nearly 400 posts!

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i wouldn't say it's unknown in Indian subcontinent, but it's a taboo for sure. And  the magnitude of it being a taboo depends on the kind of family a person hails from. If u belong to a family educated enough then u will have no problem in at least discussing it's theory, but discussing its practicality is a no-no.

Taboo in the Indian subcontinent?  I don't believe it, Ameen/Iceman said otherwise!!

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Where I come from it is very frowned upon. We cant even speek of it or ask questions about without being yelled at. Personally I wouldn't engage myself in this thing even if it is halal. For me, marriage is sacred and I want to keep it that way. I dont want no boy playing around with me temporary. But I understand why muta became halal in the first place but I just feel that nowadays people are doing it just because they can and taking advantage of this rule and misuse it.

Frowned upon... but not taboo.

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I understand your zeal for mutah due to all the haram that is scooping up the young.... However....

 

Not to be a pain - well guess I am being a pain - but..  according to what you have written, men, after nikah, who before marriage:

have been celibate - will continue to be celibate as there is something wrong with their levels of testosterone and they probably will not be able to have children
have been masturbating - will continue to masturbate as it has become an ingrained habit and the wife is in for some nasty surprises
have been committing zina - will continue to commit zina as this is a lifestyle that is now impossible to break - and this will lead to divorce
So, to continue that line of reasoning, men/boys who contract mutah will also carry this habit into permanent marriage as, according to the above reasoning, it will be a lifestyle that is difficult (impossible) to break. In addition, as it is halal, there are no Islamic restrictions as there are with the above and would be much much easier to continue.  If this is true, you will not get many women who will welcome this lifestyle into their family life.

Great post, I just wanted to quote it.

And it doesn't have Islamic restrictions??  :o  But I thought "the Prophet (s) made it permissible? but why? what is the reason..."

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What IS real is that girls that engage in mutah are NOT considered marriageable by prospective suitors and their families - so until that is addressed - this will remain an academic discussion that goes nowhere. 

I'm getting bored, and I know I'm wasting my time since you won't respond to any of this.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 01:34:13 AM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

muslim720

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #355 on: February 02, 2018, 09:03:12 AM »
Muslim720 thanks for your post. You've brought another unreferenced hadith and so I'm afraid you've left me with little I can say.

Which one?  The statement of the Shia learned person (encouraging mutah) in the video is a corroboration to the fact that it is a highly encouraged practice in Shiaism.  What is uncalled for is the enraged reaction of those who cannot preach mutah enough when it is merely suggested for their own children.

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Even if you bring fully referenced ahadith, it will not have the effect you appear to desire, since Islamic tenets and 'aqa'id are almost never derived from single or minimal hadith sources.

Really?  Well, that is what we have been telling our Shia brothers.  When you look at the Hadith of Pen and Paper, for example, look at all the narrations pertaining to the event.  Also take into account what Ibn Abbas (ra) said in another place regarding Umar (ra).....list goes on!

In the case of mutah, however, the narrations encouraging it are not limited to one or two.

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Your report of what the Shi'i scholar at the masjid told you about the status of the Imams(as) is not something I've heard myself, though I will repeat that it's to your credit that you engage with the brothers there in the first place.

Believe me, I have the deepest respect for this imam and I would not dare lie against him not only because I fear Allah (swt) but because he is a very likeable person.  I would not have said what I said if I had not heard it with my own ears and witnessed it.

Quote
If you would like to know the purity of the Shi'i concept of Tawhid, I would recommend you to read the Sahifa Sajjadiya of Imam Zayn al Abideen(as). Do not underestimate the value of what I'm about to link you:

https://www.al-islam.org/sahifa-al-kamilah-sajjadiyya-imam-zain-ul-abideen

Tawheed is not the crux of this discussion but you might want to reflect on the link I am about to present you as I re-visit the text of As-Sahifa Al-Kamilah Al-Sajjadiyya.

http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/07/21/criticism-of-al-sahifa-al-sajjadiyya/
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Ibrahim

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #356 on: February 02, 2018, 11:39:12 AM »
Muslim720, Marriage in general is a "highly encouraged practice", not only temporary marriage, though in each case, it depends on circumstances.

So you feel it's hypocrisy if a sheikh talks about mut'ah but doesn't want it for his own daughter? Well naturally, none of us are immune from hypocrisy, but there are also genuine reasons.
Mut'ah which is consummated certainly isn't recommend for women who are virgins, and so the sheikh would rightly decline it for his unmarried daughter, like anyone else.
It's mainly divorced or widowed women who would be eligible for this, whereby parental consent isn't an issue.

Yes, Shia Muslims must also take into account the complexities of basing opinions solely on ahadith, and I believe our scholars are well aware of this.

As for the Sahifa Sajjadiya, when I linked it to you I advised you not to underestimate its value.
From your response however - your link back to an anonymous short article on this site - I feel reasonably sure that you have not read so far as the introduction.

If you will take no time to read and contemplate the Sahifa Sajjadiya before trying to contradict it, what makes you think that your contact with Shia Muslims on the whole isn't reflective of this?

Much as I admire your inclination to dialogue, I would ask you to question if your overall approach is fair-minded enough to do justice to the efforts you make in your visits to your local masaajid.
For example, your accounts here scarcely mention anything therein which you find beautiful or inspiring. Yet when I visit masaajid, which I do all over the world, I find more that's beautiful and inspiring than I could ever hope to describe.

Is there any difference between you and me whereby our experiences could be so different? Or is it something else?



Ibrahim

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #357 on: February 02, 2018, 01:18:13 PM »

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #358 on: February 02, 2018, 08:27:56 PM »
First of all, what is the 12r Mazhab? Lets generalise this, what is the Suni Mazhab? Both questions are wrong to begin with. Mazhab means religion, such as Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. Suni or Shia aren't Mazhabs but in fact they are sects of the same Mazhab which is Islam.

So what is Hanfi, Shafa'ee, Maliki and Hanbali? Are they Mazhabs? Are they sects? What exactly are they? They are different and separate schools of thought belonging to the same Sect of Islam and that is the Suni sect of Islam.

Now how do Sunis view the four schools of thought? How do they see them? It doesn't matter which school of thought you belong to and follow, you are all known as and are called Sunis. That is the general call. But there are minor as well as major differences which further divide the Ahle Sunah into Barelvi, Deobandhi, Ahle Hadees, Sufi, Wahabi, Salafi etc.

Now you ask the dear brothers on this site and they will brush things under the carpet by saying that there are no major differences but just minor differences but we are all Sunis and the same. But reality is different. Some even see others as having ill faith (badh aqeedah) because of their views and would even exclude them from Islam by sending takfeer on them.

Now Shias. Shiaism is not a Mazhab but a sect from the various sects of Islam. The Islamic religion has been divided by the Muslims into various and different sects. Or you can say that the Muslims have divided into different sects and you have different versions and faces of Islam. Shiaism is one of those sects, versions and faces.

Shias follow and belong to one school of thought only but have divided into different groups. Or different groups have emerged who all call themselves Shia but follow one school of thought. Or you have many versions and faces of Shiaism.

The 12rs regard themselves as the true and actual version and face of Shiaism with all due respect towards the others and their right to exercise their belief and life. The 12r is not a Mazhab but a different branch of Shiaism.

Now who and what are 12rs? How do we know and find out? Or lets generalise this, who and what are Shias? What, the members, mods and admins of this site are going to tell us? Those who can't see anything good, right and positive about the Shias, they are going to tell us?

Or does Shiaism and what it is and who they actually are, does this solely depend on Mujtahids and Ayatollahs that, what ever they say is Shiaism and are the Shias?

Do you even know what and who a Mujtahid is and what Taqleed is all about?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 08:31:52 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #359 on: February 02, 2018, 08:47:58 PM »
MUJTAHID and TAQLEED!

Who is a Mujtahid and what is Taqleed? Shias, and I will talk about the 12rs only because they are the ones that are discussed, the 12rs believe in the 12 Imams after Muhammad (s) and they believe that these 12 are the successors to Muhammad (s) one after the other without pause or a gap.

Eleven of these 12 have been and gone. The 12th isn't in hiding and because of fear but actually is in occultation because of the lack of interest, care and concern of the Muslims towards Allah's divine guidance for them. Allah doesn't care about you if you don't care about yourselves. Allah doesn't give guidance to whom ever he wants but to those who seek it.

Now the 12th Imam is present but not available because of unfortunate circumstances, so our substitute is Ijtihad and a Mujtahid instead of Imamah and an Imam. Now we need to learn and understand what Imamah is and who is an Imam and what their role is and what Ijtihad is and who is a Mujtahid and what their role is.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 08:51:33 PM by iceman »

 

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