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Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?

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iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #240 on: January 15, 2018, 02:10:05 AM »
So what my understanding of the above is; Misyar and Mutah, when it comes to Misyar the time limit of the marriage isn't mentioned but the intention of it being limited is there and at the beginning because that's the reason for it in the first place. The man intents to marry with the intention of divorce at sone point or stage. Because it's also called a travelers marriage. When the travel period is over what then?

When it comes to Mutah the intention of it being limited is clearly mentioned at the beginning by declaring the time period. This is called being honest and clear rather than hidden or sneaky. Both, Misyar and Mutah, are for the same reason and purpose. So what's exactly the difference and what is the game here? Whether you hold your nose straight or bend and turn your arm all the way around the back of your head and then hold your nose that way, you're still holding your nose at the end of the day.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #241 on: January 15, 2018, 02:15:25 AM »
Misyar marriage has become a social reality and, as such, a solution to some problems and a cause of others, said a professor at King Saud University in Riyadh.
“Misyar is widespread because many need to keep their marriages a secret, either due to the objection of the first wife or other family pressures,” Ali Al-Bakr, faculty member at KSU, told a local daily.
Getting married in the Kingdom is no longer easy, according to one report, thanks to countless social and economic obstacles, including extortionate dowries, costly wedding extravaganzas and lack of housing.
In a misyar marriage the woman waives some of the rights she would enjoy in a normal marriage. Most misyar brides don’t change their residences but pursue marriage on a visitation basis. Some marriage officials say seven of 10 marriage contracts they conduct are misyar, and in some cases are asked to recommend prospective misyar partners.
Some people believe that these factors have led to the widespread practice of misyar, which has flexible conditions compared with traditional marriages, as a last resort. “It remains an option, albeit a temporary one, which is, nevertheless, seen as unfair to women in many cases,” said a national.
Saeed Al-Omari, a Saudi lawyer, said that such marriages have been legally recognized since conditions, including the presence of guardians and witnesses, are in place within their framework.
He said the Misyar practice is in line with Ministry of Justice regulations requiring the husband to sign contract documents that have to be ratified by local courts in accordance with Article 22 of the Saudi Marriage Act.
Despite there being consensus among a large segment of religious scholars about the legality of the Misyar model or marriage, not least because it stops youth from having illicit relations outside of wedlock, the practice is still considered taboo among many communities.
“The practice has been exploited by many, leading to negative stereotypes among several communities, which consider Misyar an insult to women,” he said.
For Al-Omar, this type of marriage could, nonetheless, reduce spinsterhood and protect divorcees and widows. It also comes to the rescue of youth, many of whom cannot afford either the short-term and long-term costs of regular marriages.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #242 on: January 15, 2018, 02:19:28 AM »
Nikah Misyar
This marriage is a normal Islamic marriage with the exception that the husband and wife give up several rights by their own free will, such as living together, equal division of nights between wives in cases of polygyny, the wife's rights to housing, and maintenance money ("nafaqa"), and the husband's right of homekeeping, and access etc. and it is practiced by sunnis.

These rights are not considered obligatory for the marriage contract to happen according to Islam.

Also, Misyar is not temporary. If the marriage is fixed (temporary) then this is haram according to Sunnis.

Last point, Majority of scholars disallowed Misyar marriage, such as Yusuf al-Qaradwai and al-albani and other.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #243 on: January 15, 2018, 02:26:41 AM »
Nikah Misyar
This marriage is a normal Islamic marriage with the exception that the husband and wife give up several rights by their own free will, such as living together, equal division of nights between wives in cases of polygyny, the wife's rights to housing, and maintenance money ("nafaqa"), and the husband's right of homekeeping, and access etc. and it is practiced by sunnis.

These rights are not considered obligatory for the marriage contract to happen according to Islam.

Also, Misyar is not temporary. If the marriage is fixed (temporary) then this is haram according to Sunnis.

Last point, Majority of scholars disallowed Misyar marriage, such as Yusuf al-Qaradwai and al-albani and other.

Note this;

'Also, Misyar is not temporary. If the marriage is fixed (temporary) then this is haram according to Sunnis'

So what's the whole point, reason and purpose of Misyar then? Why not stick to Nikah in the first place? I mean the intention to end the marriage and some point or stage in Misyar is there to start and begin with. May be someone on this site can step forward and clarify this.

MISYAR – Temporary Marriage in Sunni Islam
October 13, 2011by Aftab Zaidi

The adherents of Sunni Islam have been vocal in criticizing the Shia practice of temporary marriage called Muttah. This form of marriage is a valid part of the Shia doctrine and is being followed predominantly in Iran and several parts of Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussain. However it might come as a surprise that a similar type of marriage also exists in Sunni Islam. It is known as Misyar or traveler’s marriage. It is carried out in Sunni majority countries, specifically Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Syria.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 02:31:58 AM by iceman »

Mythbuster1

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #244 on: January 15, 2018, 02:32:53 AM »
You're not giving me the truth but the nonsense and rubbish you've been fed with about Shias from day one. Muhammad (s) is the one we follow and he wasn't a Jew. Certain companions disregard him (s) and what he had to offer around and during his (s) final days. They had other intentions and for that the Muslim Ummah is paying the price.

We got our Sunan from the following chain; Al Askari from Al Naqi from Al Taqi from Al Raza from Al Kazim from Al Sadiq from Al Baqir from Al Sajjad from Al Hussain and Al Hassan from Al murtaza from Muhammad (s) 😊

We know who and what we are. WHAT ABOUT YOU?

Ibne Saba is a fictional story created by Anti Shias and occultation isn't hiding. You already Jesus and Khizar awaiting 😊 Use your aql. 😊

Yes Ibn Saba was a Jew and yes you follow him and his divinity Imamate theory, don’t kid yourself😁

You got your sunnah starting from above guy followed by liars and deceivers playing taqiyyah using it as an excuse to cowardly lie upon lie upon the family of the prophet saw......to this day you are regurgitating the same tripe what Ibn Saba used to say.......imam Ali ra punished him, whilst his followers (YOU) carry on the torch of divinity imarmite leaderships.......without any evidence from Quran or sunnah!😊

Occultation: hiding from view
http://origin-mwebserp.dictionary.com/browse/occultation

ISA as isn’t in occultation or hiding....He ISA as wasn’t in fear or running, Allah swt RAISED Him up and put someone else who resembled Him instead.......how does Isa as relate to a running scared guy,fearing his life,and hiding in a cave? I think your AQL has gone in occultation itself to be honest if your comparing a prophet mentioned in the Quran to a fairytale unknown member of ahlu baith ra.😂

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #245 on: January 15, 2018, 02:36:53 AM »
However (Misyar) this sort of reasoning makes no mention of the completely unequal bargaining powers of the two parties and the fact that the woman has almost no power to insist on the conditions specified in such a contract. The fact that a women agrees to a marriage which provides her with almost no rights compared to what she would be entitled to otherwise, is clear evidence of her lower bargaining position. By evaluating such a contract entirely as a legal document to which the two parties have consented is to completely ignore the inherent gender inequalities which actually led to the creation of such a legal instrument.

Moreover, the societal consequences for children born out of such a union can be utterly devastating. A home from which a father is absent for no apparent reason can have a deep psychological impact on young impressionable minds. The situation for the woman can become worse if the wife is abandoned or renounced by her Misyar husband. This can also result in her having to raise kids as a single mother with hardly any means of subsistence. Additionally, since a Misyar marriage does not have an expiry date, the woman cannot marry another man unless she is divorced by her Misyar husband.

There are other reasons that force women to cave into such destructive choices. In 2008, Saudi Arabia had around 200,000 women who received no support from their blood relatives. The requirement of the Saudi government for these women to produce Mehrams who would provide them with permission to work or travel often compel them to enter into Misyar marriages for the only purpose of earning a livelihood or gaining permission for travel.

Although legal loopholes have been developed to justify the act of temporary marriages, these marriages are no better than a legalized form of prostitution.  The victim in every case turns out to be a woman with little or no say. Such arrangements should be discouraged and steps need to be taken to completely eradicate this menace.

muslim720

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #246 on: January 15, 2018, 04:32:27 AM »
In English we have the well known saying: "Don't shoot the messenger".

I will give you an "A" in English but I am afraid you failed your own argument with your inability to (yet again) comment on (the possibility of) mutah being "mustahab" versus misyar being "makrooh".
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #247 on: January 15, 2018, 05:16:13 AM »
I will give you an "A" in English but I am afraid you failed your own argument with your inability to (yet again) comment on (the possibility of) mutah being "mustahab" versus misyar being "makrooh".

Bump......whalop. I new you couldn't respond any better.

muslim720

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #248 on: January 15, 2018, 05:26:11 AM »
Bump......whalop. I new you couldn't respond any better.

You are an amazing brother however, masha'Allah.  I like you.  You can read what is in my heart and mind over the internet.  Next time put spell-check to use.  Your impeccable responses deserve unblemished presentation.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #249 on: January 16, 2018, 12:07:51 AM »
You are an amazing brother however, masha'Allah.  I like you.  You can read what is in my heart and mind over the internet.  Next time put spell-check to use.  Your impeccable responses deserve unblemished presentation.

Plenty has been said and put forward. You disregard everything along with certain others and only wish to comment on what suits you and what your comfortable with and what you can get away with. Marvellous! What can I say.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #250 on: January 16, 2018, 12:11:06 AM »
You’re obviously not here take part in any serious discussion.

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #251 on: January 16, 2018, 12:24:03 AM »
Plenty has been said and put forward. You disregard everything along with certain others and only wish to comment on what suits you and what your comfortable with and what you can get away with. Marvellous!

Plenty has been said, but none of it actually addressed the topic at hand.

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What can I say.

You can say something related to the topic without engaging in a whole bunch of "whatabouttery."

You can answer any of these questions:

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1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab? *answered* It is mustahabb according to Ayatollah Khamini.
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

GreatChineseFall

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #252 on: January 16, 2018, 12:57:49 AM »
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GreatChineseFall, Obligatory precaution does not necessarily mean "not allowed":

https://www.al-islam.org/the-basics-of-islamic-jurisprudence-hassan-al-ridai/jurisprudence-jargon

Here are the links you requested to scholars who allow (recommended precaution as opposed to obligatory precaution) permanent marriage with Kitabi women:

http://www.english.shirazi.ir/topics/marriage

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/marriage

In the second link, please go to number 2406.

I didn't say not allowed, I said as per obligatory precaution it is not allowed(according to Sistani). And that is not the same as makruh and neither does recommended precaution mean that, but fair enough. However, there is a different judgment compared to mutah, which brings me to the following:

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As for the similarities you suggest between temporary and permanent marriage where conversion is sought, I believe you've partially answered your own question with reference to divorce. Divorce is a highly makruh act which temporary marriage avoids.

We also have to consider the differences in niyyah and in practical application: a temporary marriage, with the expressed hope that conversion will take place, is a lot different from a permanent marriage in which the wife has been offered a lifelong commitment while still being Jewish or Christian.

As has been said before, divorce is only disliked without a valid reason. You can not have being in a marriage with a Christian disliked(or even forbidden) and ending a marriage with a Christian also being disliked. That would mean that no matter what you do, you would be doing something that is disliked. This is not possible.

In a permanent marriage you can also express hope that a conversion will take place and a lifelong commitment can be conditional. That would mean that a man can't commit to a wife who is not wearing her hijab or a woman can't marry a man who drinks for example until that behaviour has changed.

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On the contrary, surely it's better to have halal options for diverse contingencies and exigencies.
One of the things that separates Islam from other religions is that it is universal and provides for us in whatever state or situation we may find ourselves in.

If you're aware of a consensus among Shi'i scholars of a particular time limit for absence from one's wives, please elucidate if you feel it pertains to the discussion.

So what about the married men? What if they are away in a Christian country or land with only Christian women. What is the solution to their situation and why can't they contract mut'ah and try to convert them? Why is it only allowed for unmarried men?

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2349/
See 2427. So you can't be away for more than four months.

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The alcohol example is inadmissable because the Holy Prophet(saws) never instructed anyone to drink alcohol - a dissolute practice which was forbidden in stages; whereas he positively instructed the Muslims to do mut'ah.

While your example of Nabi Adam(as) is more apposite, that was a different time, with a different state of humanity and a different Shari'ah.
Mut'ah however was made halal under our current Prophet(saws) whose Shari'ah is valid for our current humanity until the Yawm-ul-Qiyamah.

Taking this into account, then even if you believe mut'ah has been abolished, surely it's inappropriate to refer to it disparagingly.
Fair enough, however the connotation that you are trying to push by stating that the Prophet(saws) "positively instructed" the companions to do mut'ah. He(saws) permitted it under very specific circumstances and for a short period of time. That would be the same as saying that the Prophet(saws) positively instructed the wife of Abu Juhayfa to breastfeed Salim, an adult companion. You might say that the period of allowing mut'ah was longer or that more companions did it, however that is of no relevance.

Secondly, something I forgot to mention before is the difference in what was allowed and what is currently considered to be allowed. Mut'ah was as I said was permitted under very specific circumstances where the choice was between castration and mut'ah. The same scenario applies to taqiyya for example. Sunni's believe that the circumstances under which it is allowed are very strict and find the concept of taqiyya in Shi'i thought extremely problematic and a license to deceive and lie.

So no, I disagree, people can critize and even ridicule the promotion of the unrestricted and recommended practice of breastfeeding adults as a license to promiscuity and the almost unrestricted and recommended practice of taqiyya as a license to deceive and lie just as much as they can do that for the almost unrestricted and recommended practice of mut'ah.

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Here you are defining mut'ah on your own terms. You have definitively stated that "mut'ah isn't allowed so that people have an extra da'wah tool to use.".
What authority do you have to restrict the applications of mut'ah to those you yourself perceive?

Please refer to 2430 in the above link.

I am not restricting its use in any way. Use mut'ah for whatever you like, it doesn't change the intended purpose of it though. A simple example would be the use of a screwdriver. Obviously, the intended use of a screwdriver is to unscrew things. You can then point out that with screwdrivers you can pick your nose with it or use them as chopsticks to eat your noodles or not do anything with it, you just want to observe it. That's all fine and do that if you want, as I am not restricting anything. It doesn't change the fact that the intended usage of a screwdriver is to unscrew things.

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You've made yourself clear and I understand you very well as I did in the previous post.

According to your own narrations, the Holy Prophet(saws) instructed the sahaaba to do mut'ah for "the sole purpose of satisfying one's sexual needs", so why would you expect me to feel "embarrassed" about this?

I don't think you understand completely, refer again to my comment regarding unrestricted and recommended practice of adult breastfeeding. Maybe another example will help. This is what the late Fadhlallah declared with respect to pornography:
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Q: Is it permissible for a frigid wife or husband to watch pornographic scenes?

A: I don’t think it has been scientifically proven that watching pornographic films is a reliable treatment for frigidity; on the contrary, it often has negative results. Also, morally speaking, this weakens moral immunity, and attaches people, even couples, to a mood of dissolution which makes man feel alienated from his wife when she fails to imitate the woman who plays the sexual role in the film, and makes the wife alienated from her husband if he fails to imitate the male figure.

Similarly, the same thing happens upon fornication. When a man fornicates with an experienced [Edited Out], he feels disappointed when his wife fails to offer moves similar to the ones offered by the [Edited Out], who has provided him with all elements of excitement. Perhaps this is one among the reasons that have led some jurists to forbid temporary marriage (mutaa) to common prostitutes. So, we believe that the x-rated movies and pornography have a negative impact on the spiritual, moral and family sides of a person; thus, I forbid it for spouses.

But, if a husband or a wife, or both suffer frigidity in the absence of any means of treatment, whether natural- through mutual excitation -or through medication, and if the only treatment is watching pornographic scenes, then this will be permissible, only because this is the only means, keeping in mind that this should be done apart from any excess, just like taking the proper dosage of the medicine prescribed, provided that this passive situation may threaten their matrimonial life.

You don't have to point out that Fadhlallah is not the Prophet(saws) or that such a situation hasn't occurred yet or that he is simply wrong, as it is not relevant for this point. All that matters is if someone would agree with him, does that mean that such a person would not feel embarrassed regarding unrestricted and recommended pornography or that Fadhlallah himself wasn't embarrassed regarding unrestricted and recommended pornography.

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Just as it can be contracted for sexual needs to be met in a halal way, it can also be contracted for other reasons with the stipulation that no sexual contact will take place.
Irrelevant

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Your insistence on the primacy of the sexual aspect is of no ultimate consequence, since Allah(saws) has blessed us with a Deen which addresses all our needs, both spiritual and temporal.

The word "mut'ah" is derived from an Arabic root which connotes pleasure, while the word "nikah" is derived from an Arabic root which connotes sexual intercourse. Since one of the primary rights of a man in nikah, according to all Muslims, is sexual intercourse, can we therefore dismiss as peripheral all the other aspects of nikah and say that marriage itself is essentially just a sexual arrangement?

No, because as you correctly stated it is "ONE OF THE primary rights" as there are many rights and also many obligations. We can't dissmiss them as peripheral because they are NOT peripheral, it's that simple. In the case of mut'ah, they are peripheral or totally absent and left to the discretion and mutual consent of the two engaged in it. Suffice to say that if one were to marry without stating any conditions, many rights and obligations would solidify due to absence of stating any conditions. Mut'ah on the other hand, if one were to contract that without stating any specific conditions it would result in hardly anything else besides conjugal rights and financial compensation.

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My reference to promiscuity was on account of the negative connotations the word has in the English language.
It is within these cultural parentheses that I have also brought attention to the differences between Islamic teachings and Christian attitudes; and this in turn is demonstrative of the wider reality that many people are embarrassed about sexuality in general and often close off legal avenues. For example Allah(swt) has stated in the Holy Qur'an:

 ثُمَّ قَفَّينا عَلىٰ آثارِهِم بِرُسُلِنا وَقَفَّينا بِعيسَى ابنِ مَريَمَ وَآتَيناهُ الإِنجيلَ وَجَعَلنا في قُلوبِ الَّذينَ اتَّبَعوهُ رَأفَةً وَرَحمَةً وَرَهبانِيَّةً ابتَدَعوها ما كَتَبناها عَلَيهِم إِلَّا ابتِغاءَ رِضوانِ اللَّهِ فَما رَعَوها حَقَّ رِعايَتِها ۖ فَآتَينَا الَّذينَ آمَنوا مِنهُم أَجرَهُم ۖ وَكَثيرٌ مِنهُم فاسِقونَ

Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But monasticism they invented. We ordained it not for them. Only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers. (Holy Qur'an 57:27)

From Christan history we know that monasticism involved them enforcing celibacy upon themselves and closing off what Allah(swt) had permitted for them.
I have not much to comment here. Long story short, you have no problem with casual sex in general and no issue with being promiscuous?

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There's no apparent reason why the "embarrassment" you speak of with regard to mut'ah is different from the common human embarrassment pertaining to carnal desires in general, the same embarrassment which caused monks and priests to impose celibacy on themselves or which causes modern Westerners to criticise the marriages of the Holy Prophet(saws).

Since there's no Islamic sanction for these attitudes, they're not something we as Muslims need consider ourselves fettered by.
Embarrassement or rather shame is intrinsically connnected to the value, stature and honour of a person and one feels shame if their honour is attacked or their stature and value is perceived to be lowered. Basically, embarrassement or shame can be of three types. One can feel embarrassed because they feel inadequate or even worthless due to their situation in general, for example a person may have a deformity or consider himself unattractive. One can feel shame because they have been wronged and this wronging is humiliating and an attack on their honour, like a person who has been raped. These two types are not problematic because the person himself is not actively participating in any wrongdoing. The last one is feeling embarrassement because you are doing something wrong that attacks the honour of someone, possibly yourself, like doing zina.

However, the first two types can't apply to mut'ah because you are an active participant in this. What about embarrassement regarding carnal desires? People, at least Muslims(I can't speak for Christians) are not embarrassed by their carnal desires, as no one feels that it makes them inadequate or less of a man if they have those desires(maybe Christians do) and they are not actively doing something and no one is doing something to them. What they feel is shame to talk about their carnal desires in public and they feel this because it is considered a form of promiscuity to talk about this in public as they make listeners some kind of participants in the act. Therefore, they consider this promiscuous and wrong causing the honour of people to be attacked and the value of them to be lowered and ultimately corruption of morals. However, if you see no problem with promiscuity in its more direct form, I fail to see why its lesser kind should be problematic to you.

Another less direct form of promiscuity is pornography for example or using video connections to expose the awrah of people as it makes observers more or less participating in this. As far as I can tell, Shi'i scholars have no issue with mut'ah being contracted over the internet. Therefore, using a webcam for example, men and women can then also satisfy their sexual needs. There is no consummation either so women don't have to observe iddah and can switch from one partner to the next in a matter of minutes. Would this also not be problematic to you? This doesn't attack the honour of the participants according to you?

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #253 on: January 16, 2018, 02:10:25 AM »
You’re obviously not here take part in any serious discussion.

That statement actually fits you and a few others. There's nothing that can be said or done with those who have a mindset. So what ever......

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #254 on: January 16, 2018, 02:14:24 AM »
Plenty has been said, but none of it actually addressed the topic at hand.

You can say something related to the topic without engaging in a whole bunch of "whatabouttery."

You can answer any of these questions:

Save me at least if not yourself from the nonsense. Please don't put words in my mouth and accuse me of this, that and the other. I can answer but satisfying you completely is not in my hands. But still, fire away one by one if you fancy another shot at it.

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #255 on: January 16, 2018, 03:03:11 AM »
Save me at least if not yourself from the nonsense. Please don't put words in my mouth and accuse me of this, that and the other.

I didn't put words in your mouth.  I accused you of engaging in "whataboutery" which it turned out is actually the wrong term; I should've accused you of "whataboutism"  :o you learn something new everyday

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whataboutism: A propaganda technique where criticisms are deflected by raising corresponding criticisms of the opposite side.

For example, in this thread, we questioned the taboo nature of Mut'ah in the 12er world despite it being considered mustahabb unconditionally and doing it four times supposedly raises the person to the status of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.  You and Ibrahim began to respond by raising Misyar and Urfi marriages; i.e. "well what about Misyar marriage?!"  The problem with that is, you are actually admitting that Mut'ah is something taboo to you because you are equating it with something that ranges from makrooh to haram with us.

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I can answer but satisfying you completely is not in my hands.

Answering is something like what I did above.  You had an objection, and I addressed it.  At that point, you can either be satisfied by my answer or not.  You on the other hand hardly ever address anything, and whenever anything you say is refuted, instead of actually addressing it, you just say "its not my fault you can't understand and is fed anti-Shia propaganda."  I am fed it by who?  You as a Shi'a is my source of Shi'asm, not Salafis, not Ash'aris, rather I learn Shi'asm from Shi'is, just like I learn any school from that school itself.  Once you come to accept this, you will realize why what you say hasn't been very convincing.  Once you come to accept that I am not fundamentally evil, that I am not purposefully misunderstanding you, you and I will be to have a real conversation.

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But still, fire away one by one if you fancy another shot at it.

Let's start with question #3: Are there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.

If you can also address the narrations which mention that doing it four times is equal to being on the level of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as I think it's related to the question at hand.  Please answer with your opinon on it, I already know not "to believe everything I read in books" and "not everything any Shi'i Alim said is the belief of Shi'as", what I want is YOUR opinion on these narrations, and how you came to that opinion i.e. did you reject them because of the sanad, because you thought they were Shaadh etc.

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك I think we will finally be able to move along in this discussion...
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #256 on: January 16, 2018, 01:28:57 PM »
I didn't put words in your mouth.  I accused you of engaging in "whataboutery" which it turned out is actually the wrong term; I should've accused you of "whataboutism"  :o you learn something new everyday

For example, in this thread, we questioned the taboo nature of Mut'ah in the 12er world despite it being considered mustahabb unconditionally and doing it four times supposedly raises the person to the status of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.  You and Ibrahim began to respond by raising Misyar and Urfi marriages; i.e. "well what about Misyar marriage?!"  The problem with that is, you are actually admitting that Mut'ah is something taboo to you because you are equating it with something that ranges from makrooh to haram with us.

Answering is something like what I did above.  You had an objection, and I addressed it.  At that point, you can either be satisfied by my answer or not.  You on the other hand hardly ever address anything, and whenever anything you say is refuted, instead of actually addressing it, you just say "its not my fault you can't understand and is fed anti-Shia propaganda."  I am fed it by who?  You as a Shi'a is my source of Shi'asm, not Salafis, not Ash'aris, rather I learn Shi'asm from Shi'is, just like I learn any school from that school itself.  Once you come to accept this, you will realize why what you say hasn't been very convincing.  Once you come to accept that I am not fundamentally evil, that I am not purposefully misunderstanding you, you and I will be to have a real conversation.

Let's start with question #3: Are there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.

If you can also address the narrations which mention that doing it four times is equal to being on the level of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as I think it's related to the question at hand.  Please answer with your opinon on it, I already know not "to believe everything I read in books" and "not everything any Shi'i Alim said is the belief of Shi'as", what I want is YOUR opinion on these narrations, and how you came to that opinion i.e. did you reject them because of the sanad, because you thought they were Shaadh etc.

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك I think we will finally be able to move along in this discussion...

You accused me of..... That's ok. We Shias have been accused of a lot of rubbish from day one and none of it has come out to be true.

You questioned the taboo nature of mutah with in the Shia community and I answered in great detail that mutah is not taboo in our community nor is it commonly practiced.

It isn't taboo it's just the low ikhlaq and ill nature of how certain people put the question of mutah forward to us.

When questioned I still responded that it's not something you do or get your women to do or add your women how many times they've done it. But it depends on the need and urge again depending on circumstances, situations and conditions.

The Prophet (s) made it permissible and that's exactly what we stand by.

Mythbuster1

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #257 on: January 16, 2018, 01:44:16 PM »
SO......GO ON THEN SHIITE WARRIOR......ICEPOOP.

How did Islam PROSPER coz of Shiites?

You made the claim and now you can’t back it up? That’s shiitism in a nutshell!!😂😂👍👍

Just like you made a false claim Iran doesn’t CO OPERATE with enemies😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Come on icepoop show us your great Shiite bred intellect......if you have any😂😂😂😂


iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #258 on: January 16, 2018, 07:03:14 PM »
SO......GO ON THEN SHIITE WARRIOR......ICEPOOP.

How did Islam PROSPER coz of Shiites?

You made the claim and now you can’t back it up? That’s shiitism in a nutshell!!😂😂👍👍

Just like you made a false claim Iran doesn’t CO OPERATE with enemies😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Come on icepoop show us your great Shiite bred intellect......if you have any😂😂😂😂

So Khaled, what are you going to say about the smiley faces here? And look at the amount. And to the moderators, the insult from this post alone, never mind the others, any comments? I don't expect any action to be taken😊

Mythbuster1

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #259 on: January 16, 2018, 07:27:04 PM »
So Khaled, what are you going to say about the smiley faces here? And look at the amount. And to the moderators, the insult from this post alone, never mind the others, any comments? I don't expect any action to be taken😊

Ah yes sorry my bad I meant to write Shiism in a nutshell.wasnt intentional.

But am still waiting for the prosperity SHIISM brought to Islam.

 

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