TwelverShia.net Forum

Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #260 on: January 16, 2018, 07:44:37 PM »
The definition and meaning of 'FATWA'.

A fatwā is an Islamic legal pronouncement, issued by an expert in religious law (mufti), pertaining to a specific issue, usually at the request of an individual or judge to resolve an issue where Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), is unclear.

Now I was asked for a Fatwa of Shia Scholar/s in clear wording that Mutah is permissible/allowed only due to exceptional circumstances.

My further argument is why do we need or what is the need for a Fatwa when the ruling is absolutely clear on Mutah that the Prophet (s) made it permissible and reality and facts tell us that Mutah was exercised due to exceptional circumstances. 

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #261 on: January 16, 2018, 11:55:22 PM »
So Khaled, what are you going to say about the smiley faces here? And look at the amount. And to the moderators, the insult from this post alone, never mind the others, any comments? I don't expect any action to be taken😊

I personally think he should be banned, I also think Hadrami and Optimus Prime should be warned if not banned as well.

I am with you on this one, these people just distract from the topic and add nothing.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #262 on: January 17, 2018, 01:03:05 AM »
You accused me of.....

I accused you of "whataoutism", i.e. when your view is refuted, you respond by saying "what about...?"  When we asked you "how come Mut'ah is so taboo in Twelver circles" you and Ibrahim responded by comparing it to the taboo concept of Misyar and Urfi marriage.  When it was shown to you that these types of marriages are makrooh at best, you were unable to respond.  You went back to quoting the ahadeeth that you think show the permissiblity of Mut'ah.

Quote
That's ok. We Shias have been accused of a lot of rubbish from day one and none of it has come out to be true.

Typical victim mentality that adds nothing to the discussion.  Could you imagine a Muslim debater saying this to a non-Muslim every time someone brings up a misunderstanding of our faith?  We wouldn't be as successful as we have been in our da'wah efforts ولله الحمد.

Quote
You questioned the taboo nature of mutah with in the Shia community and I answered in great detail that mutah is not taboo in our community nor is it commonly practiced.

You did not answer in any detail actually.  However, your defensive nature, couple with your comparing Mut'ah to the unfortunate practice of Misyar and Urfi, add to the constant controversial nature of the topic at Shiachat and pretty anywhere Shi'as exist show that what you are saying is not true.  However, I skipped this question since I knew what kind of answer you would provide.  I actually just went straight to question three.

Quote
It isn't taboo it's just the low ikhlaq and ill nature of how certain people put the question of mutah forward to us.

Was the way I forwarded the question to you with low akhlaq (It's with a hamza with a fatha, akhi) and with ill nature?  I thought this time I was being very cordial with you, بارك الله فيك.

Quote
When questioned I still responded that it's not something you do or get your women to do or add your women how many times they've done it.

It's unfortunate that people have been rude to you about this topic; but you have to understand, they would be rude to a person promoting Urfi or Misyar, and since they consider Mut'ah quite a bit worse (and I'll be honest, so do I) they responded that way.  If you notice, early on in this thread, I called out the guy who compared it to prostitution and asked him to provide any evidence for his claim.  If you notice, he ran away and hasn't been back since.  That's why I don't understand why you keep lumping me in with the rest of them.

Quote
But it depends on the need and urge again depending on circumstances, situations and conditions.

According to who.

Quote
The Prophet (s) made it permissible and that's exactly what we stand by.

Its unfortunate that we are unable to have a real discussion because you are unable to get past this point; we disagree that he "made it permissible" and we discussed that early on.  Unfortunately, like usual, you didn't respond to anything that was brought up to you.  We believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it, and that this was upheld by Ali رضي الله عنه.  This is the CONSENSUS of all the Islamic schools of thought except the Twelver one (including other Shi'a groups).  Just get over this point, and try to stay on topic بارك الله فيك
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 01:06:21 AM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #263 on: January 17, 2018, 01:15:33 AM »
The definition and meaning of 'FATWA'.

A fatwā is an Islamic legal pronouncement, issued by an expert in religious law (mufti), pertaining to a specific issue, usually at the request of an individual or judge to resolve an issue where Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), is unclear.

جزاكم الله خيرا, that's one definition of a fatwa.

Quote
Now I was asked for a Fatwa of Shia Scholar/s in clear wording that Mutah is permissible/allowed only due to exceptional circumstances.

Yes you were, I imagine this will be very easy and the rest of your response will be just a copy and paste of a fatwa (considering you had the time to look up the word fatwa).  إن شاء الله I will be right this time...

Quote
My further argument is why do we need or what is the need for a Fatwa when the ruling is absolutely clear on Mutah that the Prophet (s) made it permissible and reality and facts tell us that Mutah was exercised due to exceptional circumstances.

*SIGH*

The ruling is absolutely clear, according to everyone who is not part of your sect, that Mut'ah is haraam.  However, as I asked you in the question (which is why you should quote my question instead of just relying on your memory, since you may not address all the points):

Are there any fatwas (you didn't provide any) or ahadeeth (only Sunni ahadeeth show the exceptional circumstances, it's also the source where we get that it is haram, along with Zaydi and Ismaili sources) which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.

I also added this second point so we can finish it in one discussion:

If you can also address the narrations which mention that doing it four times is equal to being on the level of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as I think it's related to the question at hand.  Please answer with your opinion on it, I already know not "to believe everything I read in books" and "not everything any Shi'i Alim said is the belief of Shi'as", what I want is YOUR opinion on these narrations, and how you came to that opinion i.e. did you reject them because of the sanad, because you thought they were Shaadh, is it out of taqleed etc.

بارك الله فيك
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #264 on: January 17, 2018, 01:28:03 AM »
Here is a classic thread on Shiachat (not Salafitalk) which shows just how the average (religious) Shi'i views Mut'ah; imagine if we were talking about laymen here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235043315-mutah-is-obligatory-for-most-youth-in-the-west/

Here are some highlights:

Quote
Lastly, if a guy slept with my sister doing Mutah without me or my dad knowing, knock him out. Just saying. If I had a daughter, I'd knock him out too. I don't care who bad the guy cant control his genitals. If he is struggling to the point of sin then he is weak and I wouldn't even want him to marry my sister or daughter. Masturbation is not fixed with marriage, it normally goes hand in hand with porn and is and addiction and a spiritual disease that needs to be gotten rid off before you marry someones sister/daughter.

Notice his reaction.  This is precisely why the trolls on this thread asked you that question; because they know the kind of reaction they would get out of you.  Why do you and other Shi'as react this way?  Because Mut'ah is taboo to you; whether you consciously are aware of it or not.

Quote
Why mutah? Why not just get married permanently? Also, do you apply this theory equally to men and to women? Would communities accept the idea that every woman should have had at least one mutah before she settles down to permanently marry?

Obviously not, which is why it has never been the case throughout Islamic history.

Quote
Yes, it is shameful that Shia communities expect little angels Jafar and Bilal (generic Shia names) to stay away from sin until the age of 28... 15 years without any haram release requires a lot of self control.

Why do you Shi'a communities do this?  Is it because Mut'ah is taboo?  Yet here I was told by you that it isn't taboo.

Quote
I've given a lot of thought to this topic. Mut`a is one of those issues that is not talked about in our communities, and so it is abused, because people do not know the rules. I've heard of young men having mut`a with prostitutes (which is not endorsed by most of our scholars), men having mut`a with women who are under the influence of alcohol (the seegha is invalid if they are drunk), men having mut`a with Muslim girls without their father's permission because "they are not virgins" (according to S. Sistani, you need their father's permission unless they have consummated a halal marriage before), men with Muslim wives who are doing mut`a the Kitabiyyat (Sistani says these men need their wives' permission before doing mut`a with a Kitabiyya), women "switching" maraji` to be considered a rashida by another marja` (switching marja` is a rigorous process that you can't just do on a whim), women not fulfilling the correct `idda length, men "picking up" mut`a wives in haram environments, and men forcing their women to have an abortion after they become pregnant.

Despite the fact that Qa'im goes on to say that this is done because people don't know the "rules," the reality is, people will never know the rules if the practice is by default secret and taboo.  I also wonder where these "rules" came from and why every Marji' has such different opinions on it.  I'm guessing its because there aren't any instructions from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم or the A'ima عليهم السلام regarding this topic.  So later on, the Maraji' had to come up with rules or else Mut'ah would look like how Qa'im is describing it.

Here is a devestating reply by Abu Hadi (moderator)

Quote
1. Mutah is a huge taboo, even though it is halal and a practical solution for many youths. It is a  reason to be shunned, for our sisters (and to a much lesser extent for our brothers) whether it is done within guidelines of the sharia or not. In most communities, this is irrelevant. In most communities, it is much, much easier to find a partner for zina(haram) than for mutah(halal).

Yet, here I was told the opposite.  Come on akhi, we all have been interacting with the Shi'a community ALL our lives.  You can't just come in here and say something completely false like "Mut'ah is not taboo" in our communities.

I think this has been MORE than enough
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #265 on: January 17, 2018, 04:49:33 AM »
Brother Khaled you are still trying to put up a stance based on argument and confrontation but in a friendliest manner. People on this site don't have a good or positive word to say about the Shias. You have been brought up by being told that if you attend the Nimaz e Janaza of a Shia your Nikah will become invalid and lots more. Who are you trying to kid here by telling that you've engaged with Shias all your life. A community that you've been told to stay and keep away from by being told porkies about them, you claim you know so much about them.

No one is angry or aggressive when asked questions. It's the nature, intention and how the question is asked and put forward. It's just to fuel the Shias and get them all emotional. As you've seen that these techniques and tactics haven't worked on fueling me. I am a step ahead and ready and well prepared. I know their game and their intentions. But we shall continue this discussion. It will get more interesting.

Ibrahim

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #266 on: January 17, 2018, 06:24:01 PM »
GreatChineseFall, it's my perception that we've reached a certain degree of mutual understanding and so I'll concentrate on what I believe are the salient issues.

If you find I'm being over-concise or that I've redacted anything you deem to be of abiding importance, feel free to mention it.

Quote
As has been said before, divorce is only disliked without a valid reason. You can not have being in a marriage with a Christian disliked(or even forbidden) and ending a marriage with a Christian also being disliked. That would mean that no matter what you do, you would be doing something that is disliked. This is not possible.

This is what's called a "false dilemma" - it means you've presented only two possibilities when there are in fact more. I will focus on this tendency in this post since I believe it's key to resolving any remaining misunderstanding.

A third option to the above is of course to make temporary marriage with Kitabi women. A fourth option is simply to seek marriage with Muslim women, so the possibility of a disliked situation doesn't arise in the first place.

Furthermore, since Sunni Muslims also hold marriage with Kitabi women to be problematic, makruh or even haraam, this issue ultimately rests no more with me than with you.

Quote
So what about the married men? What if they are away in a Christian country or land with only Christian women. What is the solution to their situation and why can't they contract mut'ah and try to convert them? Why is it only allowed for unmarried men?

To my understanding this relates to the rights of his Muslim wives concerning him marrying a non-Muslim.
The question could equally be asked about a man travelling in a Hindu or Buddhist country. Just because there are certain women a man may not contract mut'ah with, it doesn't negate the overall generous provision Islam has made for him in the fulfilment of his genuine needs.

Quote
Secondly, something I forgot to mention before is the difference in what was allowed and what is currently considered to be allowed. Mut'ah was as I said was permitted under very specific circumstances where the choice was between castration and mut'ah. The same scenario applies to taqiyya for example. Sunni's believe that the circumstances under which it is allowed are very strict and find the concept of taqiyya in Shi'i thought extremely problematic and a license to deceive and lie.

Sunni ahadith present mut'ah in much more general circumstances than you imply. The practical application of mut'ah may encompass the more pressing circumstances, though that's not what it's limited to in your own narrations.

I find your reference to taqiyyah to be extraneous and inaccurate; taqiyyah according to the teachings of Ahl al Bayt(as) is also subject to strict rules.

Quote
No, because as you correctly stated it is "ONE OF THE primary rights" as there are many rights and also many obligations. We can't dissmiss them as peripheral because they are NOT peripheral, it's that simple. In the case of mut'ah, they are peripheral or totally absent and left to the discretion and mutual consent of the two engaged in it. Suffice to say that if one were to marry without stating any conditions, many rights and obligations would solidify due to absence of stating any conditions. Mut'ah on the other hand, if one were to contract that without stating any specific conditions it would result in hardly anything else besides conjugal rights and financial compensation.

I had hoped and expected that you would respond with the above. Yes, I agree that nikah and mut'ah are dissimilar in their social functions, but it's the degree of their disparity which is in question, and your screwdriver analogy indicates that you have a tendency to overstate this.

The use of mut'ah as a non-sexual means for couples to approach nikah and assess compatibility cannot be dismissed. Likewise the use of mut'ah as a source of companionship and financial support for those women who, due to age or situation, find they are unable to attract suitors for permanent marriage.

Your last sentence about mut'ah is actually what many critics say about the Islamic concept of marriage on the whole. The black-and-white language you're employing on this subject needs to give way to a more nuanced outlook, I would suggest.

Quote
Embarrassement or rather shame is intrinsically connnected to the value, stature and honour of a person and one feels shame if their honour is attacked or their stature and value is perceived to be lowered. Basically, embarrassement or shame can be of three types...

This brings us to what I see as the crux of the discussion. Again I will draw reference to restrictive ways of thinking which result in false dilemmas, or a false trilemma in this case.

Surely embarrassment is something which underlies myriad situations, principles and emotions, in such a way as to defy numeration.

To your three types above one can easily add embarrassment elided with empathy when observing others' inabilities, embarrassment elided with humility when we receive an honour which we feel we don't deserve, or embarrassment as a substrate of modesty in the graceful demeanor of the mu'mineen with good akhlaq.
And I'm sure we can add many more.

The kind of embarrassment under discusuon here, that which I have rejected, is the kind of embarrassment some attach to carnal desires whereby sexuality per se, in and of itself, is considered inherently shameful. It is this attitude which is then used to condemn mut'ah, despite the attitude itself being at fault.

This is not to deny that people feel shy to talk about their personal experiences, for the reasons you quite rightly outline. And it certainly isn't to endorse "promiscuity", which you seem to have mistakenly derived from my previous post.

"Promiscuity" describes the indiscriminate sexual behaviour which takes into account no religious rights or boundaries and thus is not at all comparable to mut'ah which is based upon both.
So to clarify, I'm not defending or condoning promiscuity, but rather attempting to point out that there's no need to regard mut'ah in the same way one would regard promiscuity.

If we regard "promiscuity" as the mere access of a man to numerous partners, then would put us in the territory of those who criticise the marriages of the Holy Prophet(saws), na'udhubillah.
The chief difference, to my understanding, is whether we engage with those partners according to our own whims, or according to the rules and regulations Allah(swt) has established.

Rather than debating side issues with multiple quotation boxes (a format which I find often generates more heat than light), I believe it's differences in conceptual outlook which are key.

In the webcam question (which is out of my remit to address in the absence of a specific fatwa from a scholar, and which could equally be asked of Sunnis) you appear to want me to respond in a way which demonstrates a lack of moral boundaries. But what makes you so concerned with where my own boundaries lie? After all, I'm a fallible person who can be wrong about anything. Is it not better that we try to find where the Islamic boundaries lie, and then draw our own boundaries in the same place? What makes you sure that your own attitude is in sync with that taught by Islam?

As you will be aware, the general rule in Islam is permissibility in the absence of prohibition, not the other way round.
The main, and perhaps the only issue here as I see it is whether you or anyone else can guarantee that they're looking at this from a purely Islamic perspective, or if it's possible that upbringing, societal influence and personal thoughts are responsible in varying degrees.

I put it to you that from the Islamic perspective, even if you believe mut'ah has been banned, there's no reason to object to it in principle.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 06:25:52 PM by Ibrahim »

Ibrahim

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #267 on: January 17, 2018, 06:42:35 PM »
I will give you an "A" in English but I am afraid you failed your own argument with your inability to (yet again) comment on (the possibility of) mutah being "mustahab" versus misyar being "makrooh".

I don't necessarily agree with the dichotomy you've made, nor do I find a way to respond other than with the views I've already expressed on this thread.

What I will say is that I admire the honesty of your previous response and that I understand why Sunni misyar exists even if you yourself don't approve of it.

muslim720

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #268 on: January 18, 2018, 12:18:18 AM »
I don't necessarily agree with the dichotomy you've made, nor do I find a way to respond other than with the views I've already expressed on this thread.

It is not a matter of what you agree or disagree with, unless you (or anyone else) can go back and respond to all the Shia narrations I posted encouraging mutah, even claiming that performing it four times can afford one to attain the rank of the Prophet (saw).  Believe me, if you tell me that any or all those narrations are weak, with or without proof, I will take your word for it.  However, I want you and the other brother to speak.  Straight-talk, no fish-tailing.  And sometimes not having a way to respond to what has been said is an answer in itself, albeit another way of dodging the point with no substantial answer.

Quote
What I will say is that I admire the honesty of your previous response and that I understand why Sunni misyar exists even if you yourself don't approve of it.

Contrary to what most Shias might believe, I base most of what I learn about Shias on firsthand experience.  Mostly during Muharram but even outside the month, I frequent three Shia mosques in our area.  And then there is the virtual (online) world.  So I have no reason to hide that I first heard about misyar from Shias.  To help you grasp the irony, which you and Iceman have failed to grasp or are dodging, misyar was brought to my attention in defense of mutah.  People defend mutah but upon the mere mention of performing it with women in their families, or you refer to them as "children of mutah", hell breaks loose.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #269 on: January 18, 2018, 12:49:51 AM »
Brother Khaled you are still trying to put up a stance based on argument and confrontation but in a friendliest manner.

Apparently, you are still not willing to actually address anything that has been said...  I am not sure how you want me to discuss this issue with you; do you want me to just accept what you say even though it contradicts everything that I have been taught about 12ers from other 12ers?

I am also not talking to you in a friendly manner, I am talking to you in a brotherly manner.  Like Allah ordered the believers to behave in the Qur'an.

Quote
People on this site don't have a good or positive word to say about the Shias.

Well it is a site refuting 12erism, so by definition it won't be positive in its view of the subject its refuting.  However, there has been plenty of positive things said about certain Shi'as, especially Zaydis, on this site.  What's telling, however, was when I asked you on the other thread to provide ONE actual contribution 12ers have made to this Ummah, you were unable to do it.  Imagine that you, as a 12er, cannot point to ONE positive contribution that your sect has made to Islam; how do you expect those that are not 12ers to feel?

Quote
You have been brought up by being told that if you attend the Nimaz e Janaza of a Shia your Nikah will become invalid and lots more.

No I haven't, I have never ever had such a crazy thing in my life.  I'm not sure, maybe some crazy dude in Pakistan said such a thing; but this isn't the position of any school of thought or any mainstream Muslim scholar I have EVER heard.  I have been brought up that Janazah prayer is fard kifayah on the Muslim community and that if a Muslim (such as a 12er) dies and no one prays Janazah on him, that this is a communal sin that we all incur.  This is my belief, and this is what I was taught.  Your attempt to use what you may have heard from some lunatic and apply it to over 1 BILLION MUSLIMS is simply the result of your constant victim mentality.  Give it up and think about how crazy what you are saying is.  I have never accused you of whatever I have heard from al-Habib and Allahyari, why you continually associate me with the worst people is beyond me.

Quote
Who are you trying to kid here by telling that you've engaged with Shias all your life. A community that you've been told to stay and keep away from by being told porkies about them, you claim you know so much about them.

Who told me to "keep away from them?"  I have been told to keep away from every sect by the other sects, yet I've studied Salafiyyah with Salafis, Ash'ari madhhab with Ash'aris, each madhhab with its own teachers, and I've studied Shi'asm by studying books like al-Mufeed's "Irshad" and by listening to lectures by Kamal al-Haydari.  Here's a positive thing I have to say about 12ers, since you claim no one has anything good to say about them; I have benefited a lot from Kamal al-Haydari's lectures.  I feel like I understand why an intelligent God-fearing person would chose Shi'aism even though it appears so far from the truth to me.

In my college days, around 10% of the MSA was Shi'a, and we used to have a couple of Shi'as from them go and help us each weekend provide a community Iftar for a poor masjid in Los Angeles.  One of the Shi'as was a Lebanese brother who was a good friend of mine, and we used to have conversations about theology all the time.

However, even if everything I am saying is a lie and I have never even seen a Shi'i in all my life (I spent the first 8 years of my life in Kuwait BTW), the fact is, Shiachat is more than enough to give us insight into how the average Shi'i thinks.  That post that I linked to was more than enough to show that you clearly known less about the Shi'i community than I do; at the very least in regards in how it views Mut'ah.  I was wondering what you thought of that thread, بارك الله فيك.

Quote
No one is angry or aggressive when asked questions. It's the nature, intention and how the question is asked and put forward. It's just to fuel the Shias and get them all emotional. As you've seen that these techniques and tactics haven't worked on fueling me.

I don't agree at all to be honest.  That's why I tried to come in to this thread, in hopes of calming you down and hoping to get a good discussion out of you.  I unfortunately feel that that didn't work.

Quote
I am a step ahead and ready and well prepared. I know their game and their intentions. But we shall continue this discussion. It will get more interesting.

Please, please, please, just actually address ONE thing I say to, just quote something and actually respond to it.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #270 on: January 18, 2018, 12:57:18 AM »
I just wanted to just summarize some of the discussions we have had so far so we can move on:

1) Mut'ah is mustahabb in the 12er madhhab, unless doing it brings a bad image to the madhhab (Khamimi Fatwa).
2) Mut'ah is undoubtebly taboo in the 12er community with a large percentage of those doing it engaging with prostitutes and women who are drunk (Qa'im from Shiachat's words)
3) There aren't any agreed upon restrictions to the practice of Mut'ah, just the before-mentioned "as long as it doesn't make the madhhab look bad."
4) 12ers use the "whataboutism" argument of "Well, Sunnis have Misyar/Urfi marriages" even though those marriages range from haram to makrooh, and are not anything like Mut'ah anyway.
5) All Muslim sects, including the Shi'i ones, agree that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned Mut'ah and that Ali رضي الله عنه upheld that ban; except 12er Shi'as.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

muslim720

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #271 on: January 18, 2018, 06:01:34 AM »
SO......GO ON THEN SHIITE WARRIOR......ICEPOOP.

Brother, why would you say such a thing?  It is not befitting of you.  Even if you said it to get a reaction from him or to get a response to the question which has been dodged many times, use of such language is not the way to go about it.  Not to mention, the brother feeds off such behavior.  It gives him a reason to play the victim and possibly go out like a martyr.

Brother Iceman, I apologize on behalf of our brother Mythbuster1.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Mythbuster1

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #272 on: January 18, 2018, 09:22:32 AM »
Brother, why would you say such a thing?  It is not befitting of you.  Even if you said it to get a reaction from him or to get a response to the question which has been dodged many times, use of such language is not the way to go about it.  Not to mention, the brother feeds off such behavior.  It gives him a reason to play the victim and possibly go out like a martyr.

Brother Iceman, I apologize on behalf of our brother Mythbuster1.

I did apologise, I went a bit far and am genuinely sorry, i know brothers here are discussing in a good manner, I didn’t even know what it meant and just posted without thinking just coz I thought the name was funny, my mistake, hence I shall refrain from posting nonsense or don’t post at all.

Sorry brother iceman and sorry to the brothers if I derailed the thread.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #273 on: January 18, 2018, 07:18:53 PM »
Brother, why would you say such a thing?  It is not befitting of you.  Even if you said it to get a reaction from him or to get a response to the question which has been dodged many times, use of such language is not the way to go about it.  Not to mention, the brother feeds off such behavior.  It gives him a reason to play the victim and possibly go out like a martyr.

Brother Iceman, I apologize on behalf of our brother Mythbuster1.

Ok, lets all calm down. Would you mind putting the question forward that you believe I have dodged or may be it wasn't to your satisfaction.

muslim720

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #274 on: January 19, 2018, 03:20:41 AM »
Ok, lets all calm down. Would you mind putting the question forward that you believe I have dodged or may be it wasn't to your satisfaction.

Brother, this discussion started with a question.  Fourteen pages later, you still don't know which question.  Let it be!



I did apologise, I went a bit far and am genuinely sorry, i know brothers here are discussing in a good manner, I didn’t even know what it meant and just posted without thinking just coz I thought the name was funny, my mistake, hence I shall refrain from posting nonsense or don’t post at all.

Sorry brother iceman and sorry to the brothers if I derailed the thread.

I might have missed your apology so I apologize for that.  JazakAllah khair and barakAllahu feek!

"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #275 on: January 19, 2018, 08:00:07 PM »
Brother, this discussion started with a question.  Fourteen pages later, you still don't know which question.  Let it be!



I might have missed your apology so I apologize for that.  JazakAllah khair and barakAllahu feek!

I have told you that I have answered everything in great depth and in detail. Now if you want to play around rather than pointing out what answer you're not happy with then what can I say.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #276 on: January 19, 2018, 08:12:46 PM »
According to Shia jurisprudence (which is also taken from the time of Prophet Muhammad) temporary marriage is allowed. But it does not mean that every one is doing it.

Temporary marriage is a solution to solve the problems not to make problems within the society. Why men and women who are not able to have a permanent marriage should be refrained from the joy of marriage, joy of having children,etc.

The philosophy of temporary marriage is to stop committing sins and to provide the situation for every one to have halal enjoyment.

It is no accepted from a man who has a family and there is no problem in his life to do temporary marriage.

Khaled

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #277 on: January 19, 2018, 08:58:29 PM »
I have told you that I have answered everything in great depth and in detail. Now if you want to play around rather than pointing out what answer you're not happy with then what can I say.

Are you willing to concede that Mut'ah is considered taboo in the 12er community; or are you still holding on to that position after what I showed you.  I would love for you to search the words "taboo mut'ah" at Shiachat and see how much more there is.  I was going to post more, but honestly, that one thread by itself and the testimony of Abu Hadi and Qa'im far outweigh your denials (a.k.a. "detailed arguments").

As far as the questions you haven't answered, you haven't answered 3-6 from the questions I posted to you (you haven't even tried), gave a half answer to #1 (purposefully cut out the part that says that Mut'ah is recommended UNLESS IT MAKES THE MADHHAB LOOK BAD), and was show to be completely wrong about #2 as Mut'ah is most definitely taboo in the 12er community.

You keep ignoring my posts, showing that without a doubt, you don't have single answer.  Just like you were unable to provide one positive contribution the 12er Madhhab has made to the Muslim world.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

muslim720

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #278 on: January 19, 2018, 10:51:27 PM »
I have told you that I have answered everything in great depth and in detail. Now if you want to play around rather than pointing out what answer you're not happy with then what can I say.

Since you insist, I will leave this here.  For the record, I copied this hadith from ShiaChat; it was shared by a Shia member (as a sahih hadith which proves that mutah is legal).

Abdullah bin Umar al-Laithi approached imam Baqir (as) and asked him, "What do you say regarding mut'ah?".  The imam replied, "Allah made it halal in His book, and on the tongue of His Prophet (pbuh), and it is halal till the Day of Judgement".  The man replied, "Someone like you says this!  While Umar made it haram and banned it?".  The imam replied, "Even so".  The man said, "Fear Allah in making halal something made haram by Umar".  The imam said, "You are on your companion's (Umar's) saying, and I follow what the Prophet (pbuh) said.......".  The man accepted what the imam said.  Abdullah ibn Umair asked the imam if he was ok if his women daughters, sisters and cousins did mut'ah.  The imam became agitated when the man mentioned his women.

Maybe these are two narrations lumped as one, partly due to bad punctuation on the part of the user, but we see that the Imam (ra) openly declares that he follows the Prophet (saw), not Umar (ra); so much for Imams (ra) hiding their beliefs out of fear.  In the very next breath, the Imam (ra) is agitated by the mention of his own women performing this recommended "sunnah".  Why?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 10:53:00 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #279 on: January 20, 2018, 12:26:35 AM »
Since you insist, I will leave this here.  For the record, I copied this hadith from ShiaChat; it was shared by a Shia member (as a sahih hadith which proves that mutah is legal).

Abdullah bin Umar al-Laithi approached imam Baqir (as) and asked him, "What do you say regarding mut'ah?".  The imam replied, "Allah made it halal in His book, and on the tongue of His Prophet (pbuh), and it is halal till the Day of Judgement".  The man replied, "Someone like you says this!  While Umar made it haram and banned it?".  The imam replied, "Even so".  The man said, "Fear Allah in making halal something made haram by Umar".  The imam said, "You are on your companion's (Umar's) saying, and I follow what the Prophet (pbuh) said.......".  The man accepted what the imam said.  Abdullah ibn Umair asked the imam if he was ok if his women daughters, sisters and cousins did mut'ah.  The imam became agitated when the man mentioned his women.

Maybe these are two narrations lumped as one, partly due to bad punctuation on the part of the user, but we see that the Imam (ra) openly declares that he follows the Prophet (saw), not Umar (ra); so much for Imams (ra) hiding their beliefs out of fear.  In the very next breath, the Imam (ra) is agitated by the mention of his own women performing this recommended "sunnah".  Why?

Honestly I just don't know what to say to you because you are certainly not there to get to know, learn or be satisfied. Because if you were then the amount of time spent on this thread and the information and explanation given is more than enough to know, learn and understand. But I am going to explain again just for the audience/viewers/readers, the common and average folk, I will explain and only talk on what you have put forward.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
9 Replies
6414 Views
Last post February 22, 2015, 07:23:14 PM
by Rationalist
1 Replies
2396 Views
Last post February 23, 2015, 07:27:27 PM
by Hani
4 Replies
3620 Views
Last post February 07, 2016, 04:47:47 PM
by Optimus Prime
3 Replies
4470 Views
Last post January 08, 2020, 02:23:31 PM
by MuslimK