Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?

[GreatChineseFall]

This is what's called a "false dilemma" - it means you've presented only two possibilities when there are in fact more. I will focus on this tendency in this post since I believe it's key to resolving any remaining misunderstanding.

A third option to the above is of course to make temporary marriage with Kitabi women. A fourth option is simply to seek marriage with Muslim women, so the possibility of a disliked situation doesn't arise in the first place.

Furthermore, since Sunni Muslims also hold marriage with Kitabi women to be problematic, makruh or even haraam, this issue ultimately rests no more with me than with you.

This is not addressing the issue. If I point out that what you believe is problematic, then there is no need to mention cases where it wouldn't be problematic. It is enough if there are cases (which aren't too unusal or fantastical) where it is problematic. A very simple example is if a man in a Christian marriage converts and fears his wife's influence on the children, he can either continue the marriage or divorce her. It can't be that both these options are disliked. He could kill her or himself or find other creative things to do, however when presenting a dilemma I thought it would be clear that only options are discussed from a practical and relevant point of view.

As far as Sunni's are concerned, people in this thread have already stated that divorce is only disliked without a valid reason, so this dilemma would not exist as far as I am concerned, but you keep telling me that divorce is disliked and therefore one can't marry a Christian permanently and divorce her later.

To my understanding this relates to the rights of his Muslim wives concerning him marrying a non-Muslim.

Proof? How? And why? Because here it starts to get even more confusing for me. When I told you that a permanent marriage with a Christian is forbidden, you told me that it's possible but highly discouraged. However, a temporary marriage is totally fine if you are unmarried. I told you why, you told me, this gives the woman time to learn about Islam and eventually embrace Islam. So far so good.

Then we have married men, they are also as per obligatory precaution(Sistani) not allowed to marry a Christian. In addition, they are absolutely not allowed to temporarily marry a Christian without the consent of the first wife and even with her consent it is not allowed as per obligatory precaution(Sistani). The problem is that normally the first wife can't prevent the husband to marry a second Muslim wife permanently and if she consents there is no problem at all. But the whole idea of temporarily marrying a Christian according to you was to give her time to convert and marry her permanently as a Muslim wife, so how can the first wife stop this, even worse how can it be forbidden even with her consent? Especially if the husband is away from his first wife in a foreign country and especially if he stipulates that no intercourse will place, how can this effect the rights of his first wife?

Sunni ahadith present mut'ah in much more general circumstances than you imply. The practical application of mut'ah may encompass the more pressing circumstances, though that's not what it's limited to in your own narrations.

Prove the circumstances under which mut'ah was allowed from Sunni books, the permission for mut'ah is succintly summarized in the following narration:

'Urwa b. Zabair reported that 'Abdullah b. Zubair (Allah be pleased with him) stood up (and delivered an address) in Mecca saying:
Allah has made blind the hearts of some people as He has deprived them of eyesight that they give religious verdict in favour of temporary marriage, while he was alluding to a person (Ibn 'Abbas). Ibn Abbas called him and said: You are an uncouth person, devoid of sense. By my life, Mut'a was practised during the lifetime of the leader of the pious (he meant Allah's Messenger, may peace be upon him), and Ibn Zubair said to him: just do it yourselves, and by Allah, if you do that I will stone you with your stones. Ibn Shihab said. Khalid b. Muhajir b. Saifullah informed me: While I was sitting in the company of a person, a person came to him and he asked for a religious verdict about Mut'a and he permitted him to do it. Ibn Abu 'Amrah al-Ansari (Allah be pleased with him) said to him: Be gentle. It was permitted in- the early days of Islam, (for one) who was driven to it under the stress of necessity just as (the eating of) carrion and the blood and flesh of swine and then Allah intensified (the commands of) His religion and prohibited it (altogether). Ibn Shihab reported: Rabi' b. Sabra told me that his father (Sabra) said: I contracted temporary marriage with a woman of Banu 'Amir for two cloaks during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ; then he forbade us to do Mut'a. Ibn Shihab said: I heard Rabi' b. Sabra narrating it to Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz and I was sitting there.

This was confirmed by even Ibn Abbas

I had hoped and expected that you would respond with the above. Yes, I agree that nikah and mut'ah are dissimilar in their social functions, but it's the degree of their disparity which is in question, and your screwdriver analogy indicates that you have a tendency to overstate this.

The use of mut'ah as a non-sexual means for couples to approach nikah and assess compatibility cannot be dismissed. Likewise the use of mut'ah as a source of companionship and financial support for those women who, due to age or situation, find they are unable to attract suitors for permanent marriage.

Your last sentence about mut'ah is actually what many critics say about the Islamic concept of marriage on the whole. The black-and-white language you're employing on this subject needs to give way to a more nuanced outlook, I would suggest.

Do you disagree with the last sentence? What rights and obligations are obtained besides these especially if contraceptives are used to prevent pregnancy?

This brings us to what I see as the crux of the discussion. Again I will draw reference to restrictive ways of thinking which result in false dilemmas, or a false trilemma in this case.

Surely embarrassment is something which underlies myriad situations, principles and emotions, in such a way as to defy numeration.

To your three types above one can easily add embarrassment elided with empathy when observing others' inabilities, embarrassment elided with humility when we receive an honour which we feel we don't deserve, or embarrassment as a substrate of modesty in the graceful demeanor of the mu'mineen with good akhlaq.
And I'm sure we can add many more.

As in the first dilemma, I thought we don't have to bring in options that are simply not practical or relevant in this discussion. Furthermore, not to make this a semantic discussion, I said "rather shame" instead of embarrassment and "basically" to avoid all the more complex details surrounding this as shame is a little bit more restricted and essentially what it is about. None of the examples you provided are relevant here, because they do not apply to the case of mut'ah and none of them are examples of shame anyway. I could have even omitted the first type as it's not really an example of shame either. Also, when I asked "are you ashamed" it was part of a series of questions where I asked whether you see a problem or an issue with the example I provided. Obviously we are talking about possible wrongdoing here.

The kind of embarrassment under discusuon here, that which I have rejected, is the kind of embarrassment some attach to carnal desires whereby sexuality per se, in and of itself, is considered inherently shameful. It is this attitude which is then used to condemn mut'ah, despite the attitude itself being at fault.

The kind of embarrassment you are talking about simply does not exist in the Muslim world with respect to carnal desires. I don't know where you got this from but I am not aware of a single Muslim who is embarrassed by his desires. It simply does not exist as far as I am aware.

"Promiscuity" describes the indiscriminate sexual behaviour which takes into account no religious rights or boundaries and thus is not at all comparable to mut'ah which is based upon both.
So to clarify, I'm not defending or condoning promiscuity, but rather attempting to point out that there's no need to regard mut'ah in the same way one would regard promiscuity.

If we regard "promiscuity" as the mere access of a man to numerous partners, then would put us in the territory of those who criticise the marriages of the Holy Prophet(saws), na'udhubillah.
The chief difference, to my understanding, is whether we engage with those partners according to our own whims, or according to the rules and regulations Allah(swt) has established.

None of these definitions of promiscuity are correct, it is not indiscriminate sexual behaviour ignoring religious duties or boundaries nor is it mere access to numerous sexual partners. Again, for the sake of not turning this in a semantic discussion, it doesn't even matter that much. I defined it clearly and asked you a question regarding it. As long as the question is clear then the correct definition is of minor concern.

First of all, I defined casual sex as intercourse for the sole purpose of satisfying sexual needs without any commitment or attachment to the other partner and then I defined promiscuity as frequent casual sex with different partners where you are indifferent on a personal level to the choice of your partner. My question to you regarding this is, does the fact that mut'ah is allowed according to you allow you to be promiscuous and do you have an issue with this?

In the webcam question (which is out of my remit to address in the absence of a specific fatwa from a scholar, and which could equally be asked of Sunnis) you appear to want me to respond in a way which demonstrates a lack of moral boundaries. But what makes you so concerned with where my own boundaries lie? After all, I'm a fallible person who can be wrong about anything. Is it not better that we try to find where the Islamic boundaries lie, and then draw our own boundaries in the same place? What makes you sure that your own attitude is in sync with that taught by Islam?

As you will be aware, the general rule in Islam is permissibility in the absence of prohibition, not the other way round.
The main, and perhaps the only issue here as I see it is whether you or anyone else can guarantee that they're looking at this from a purely Islamic perspective, or if it's possible that upbringing, societal influence and personal thoughts are responsible in varying degrees.

Obviously if I am asking you I want to know what you think Islamic boundaries are. I don't see how this would issue would exist among Sunni's

I put it to you that from the Islamic perspective, even if you believe mut'ah has been banned, there's no reason to object to it in principle.

That's simply false and I explained why

[Khaled]

Honestly I just don't know what to say to you

You can address the hadeeth he quoted, or any number of posts I have directed to you.  But you and I both know that you've basically given up at this point.

[Ibrahim]

GreatChineseFall, I'm travelling abroad in a short while insha'Allah and I don't have enough time for a considered response to your above post.

I'll be back in just under a week insha'Allah and I'll respond then.

[Ibrahim]

Muslim720, Out of respect to your earlier request, I looked back to find the ahadith you posted (some time before I joined this thread) only to find them unreferenced.

Is it fair to ask me to comment on unreferenced sources? Suffice to say, there is a consensus among Muslims, Sunni and Shia alike, that the Holy Prophet(saws) is the best of creation, so there's no question of any Muslim reaching his level.

I'm happy to hear of your frequent visits to your local "Shia mosques" (mosques are for Allah(swt), Sunni Muslims can and do pray there too, as I'm sure you're aware).

Why do you do this?

[iceman]

You can address the hadeeth he quoted, or any number of posts I have directed to you.  But you and I both know that you've basically given up at this point.

Given up? Satisfying anyone on this site wasn't my intention anyway. That can't be achieved because of the mindset people have. And questions are asked based on that mindset.

[iceman]

Lets start from what we agree on and then work towards that disagreement. Mutah was permissible during the Prophet's (s) time. Do we agree on this? If not then let me know and tell me why not. We need to ask ourselves this question, why was Mutah permissible during the Prophet's time (s)? What was the reason and purpose?

All one needs to do is look into history. Was Mutah practised openly and commonly during the Prophet's (s) time or was Mutah made permissible due to those exceptional circumstances and was practised according to certain conditions based on special situations. This is where one needs to start and what one needs to look at.

We (Shia) believe that it was permissible during the Prophet's (s) time and for the same reasons and purpose and that is exceptional circumstances. We do not believe that the Prophet (s) prohibited it and those who do believe in this can't give us any reason or explanation to why it was prohibited.

Qoran and Sunah come first then we have the rulings of Mujtahids in the shape and form of fatwas. If you have a direct order or something is clear and straightforward from Qoran and Sunah then you don't need a fatwa or have to rely on getting one.

As far as Mutah is concerned it was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time and it was permitted by the Prophet (s) for exceptional circumstances. And for this you don't need a fatwa or a Mujtahid to tell you this. It's there in the Sunah and is part of history.

To be continued.

[iceman]

Now a book written by a Shia Scholar and this, that or the other is written in that book or a fatwa or statement by a Shia Mujtahid or scholar based on their thought, opinion or point of view is below and well below Qoran and Sunah, the saying of Allah and his Messenger (s).

Anything no matter what that collides/goes against, does not fit in with Qoran and Sunah is not acceptable regardless of who and where it's from.

As far as Shia community is concerned and Mutah, question;

why is Mutah mustahab (recommended) within Shia community and when it comes to practicing it is taboo.

To be continued.

[muslim720]

Honestly I just don't know what to say to you because you are certainly not there to get to know, learn or be satisfied.

I am here neither to learn nor to be satisfied; if that is what you are stuck on, what I just said should satisfy you to get to the point and address it or stay quiet.

[muslim720]

Muslim720, Out of respect to your earlier request, I looked back to find the ahadith you posted (some time before I joined this thread) only to find them unreferenced.

All of them were unreferenced?  Are you sure?

Is it fair to ask me to comment on unreferenced sources?

They all came with the names of the books in which they are to be found.  Even if you claim these narrations are dubious, erroneous or weak, have you not watched the Shia scholar, deliver a lecture to sisters, in order to encourage mutah?  He also narrates from the Imams (ra) in favor of mutah, with references.  For the sake of uniformity (of text and not including a video), I will not share it here but if you must watch it, let me know.

Suffice to say, there is a consensus among Muslims, Sunni and Shia alike, that the Holy Prophet(saws) is the best of creation, so there's no question of any Muslim reaching his level.

This is simply not true.  Allow me to share a referenced hadith with you.  By the way, I happen to own small booklets (I purchased at a Shia mosque) containing selected narrations from Usul Al-Kafi so this is referenced.  You wanted to know why I visit Shia mosques, right?

Al Usul
The Book of Divine Proof

A group of our associates - Ahmad ibn Muhammad - al-Husayn ibn Sa'id - Abdullah ibn Bahr - Ibn Muskan - 'Abdu 'r-Rahman ibn Abi 'Abdillah that Muhammad ibn Muslim said: "I heard Abu 'Abdillah (pbuh) say: 'The Imams are of the station of the Messenger of Allah (pbuhahp), except (in) that they are not prophets and (in that) they are not allowed (the same number of) wives which were allowed to the Prophet (pbuhahp).  However, apart from this, they are in it (other matters) of the station of the Messenger of Allah (pbuhahp).' "

So no, there is no "consensus" as per this narration.

I'm happy to hear of your frequent visits to your local "Shia mosques" (mosques are for Allah(swt), Sunni Muslims can and do pray there too, as I'm sure you're aware).

Why do you do this?

As you said, masaajid are for Allah (swt) and our mosques are just as welcoming.  The reasons why I visit Shia mosques and even pray behind the imams there are two:

1.  It prevents hatred from entering my heart.

2.  I learn about Shiaism first-hand, from Shia learned men themselves.  Tacking on to the point above - whether there is consensus on the Prophet (saw) being the best of mankind - it was at a Shia mosque where the imam told me that anything I know about Allah (swt) [His Attributes, so to speak], the Imams (ra) have the same attributes but a degree lower.  In other words, as he clarified, the Imams (ra) are everything that Allah (swt) is but a degree lower.  And this is the most moderate of the three Shia mosques I visit.....it is listed as a "non-denominational" mosque with more Sunni books (on their shelves) than Shia books.

[iceman]

It is said that according to Shia Scholars Mutah is recommended. Ok, first of all we need to look at what 'recommend' means. Lets pick up the dictionary and have a look.

'Put forward (someone or something) with approval as being suitable for a particular purpose or role.'

So the above is the meaning of 'recommend or recommended'. Take and make a note; Something, Mutah for instance, put forward WITH APPROVAL as being SUITABLE for a PARTICULAR PURPOSE or ROLE.

Now where does it say or mean that something is put forward openly, freely and commonly? Where is the free pass and ticket without any circumstances or conditions?

Mutah is put forward with approval as being SUITABLE for a PARTICULAR PURPOSE or ROLE. Plus Mutah is recommended to whom? What, the entire community and to everybody that go and do as you please with it?

Lets stop twisting and turning things to suit our hidden objective and goal. Now the TABOO bit. Mutah is there and recommended to those, not everybody but those who are facing that particular purpose or role (situation or condition).

Now to question a Shia as such;

Non Shia: "What is your opinion on Mutah?

Shia: "It is recommended" Pause!

Now here the non Shia should ask;

"what do you mean by recommended and recommended to whom and for what purpose and reason".

But because the intentions of the non Shia are different and not straight so they will respond or continue as such;

"what about your women, would you recommend Mutah to them or how many times have they done it or you got them to do it".

Jahalat (ignorance) comes in many shapes, forms and faces. Mutah isn't something you do or get to do or make people do. It is not an option or choice. It is there and recommended to those who are facing that particular situation or role.

Understand the Fatwa by asking the Scholar for a thorough meaning and explanation. Do go around taking it out of context and giving it your own meaning and explanation.

Decent and men with Ikhlaq and good manners don't even bring girls and women in to conversations by such intentions and means.

Example just to make my point;
A brother from your community (Ahle Sunah) or a group of men ask you about any unmarried women you have in your near family and then put and throw this straight into your face that they want to marry them and take them away bluntly then how would you feel? What would your response be? After all they're talking and asking about marriage. They're being very straight with you.

[iceman]

According to Islam a man or woman have the right to approach and get in touch with each other on the basis of looking and finding a partner for themselves and have the right to talk to each other to see if they're compatible. Despite this certain families do not want any man to approach/get in touch with their females on even such a basis and reason. Or will not allow their women to speak with any male on such grounds.

[iceman]

According to Islam a man or woman have the right to approach and get in touch with each other on the basis of looking and finding a partner for themselves and have the right to talk to each other to see if they're compatible. Despite this certain families do not want any man to approach/get in touch with their females on even such a basis and reason. Or will not allow their women to speak with any male on such grounds.

In addition to the above if a man likes and is interested in a woman he will not even personally approach her guardians/representatives himself and ask her hand in marriage since this is seen as an insult and is embarrassing for the female side. In fact the man will get his guardians/representatives to get in touch with hers. There is a moral and decent method and way to ask or question something. Anything beyond and apart from that is seen as an insult and embarrassing.

So the question that is Mutah taboo with in the Shia community? The answer is no. That's what you people think. How many times has my sister or daughter done it or I've got them to do it or would I recommend Mutah to them? The answer to this is simple and straightforward. Mutah is not something you do or get someone to do. It's not an option or choice. It's recommended to those in a particular situation or condition.

If you talk about or enter anyone's respect and honour (females)  then what do you expect? How would you feel about your women (females)? Would you speak and talk about them openly and on forum if asked and questioned?

What is taboo? In the Muslim community a married man goes or even thinks about marrying again and having a second wife is what's taboo. Even it's the Prophet's (s) Sunah you're acting on but it's still taboo.

And Mutah is forbidden because it's prohibited according to you then what about Misyar which is practiced among Sunis? You want to question continuously and constantly but don't want to answer and explain anything yourself?

[muslim720]

Decent and men with Ikhlaq and good manners don't even bring girls and women in to conversations by such intentions and means.

Thank you for declaring every single Shia supporting mutah ranging from Imams (ra) - although they are innocent of what you ascribe to them - to scholars to laymen (even your own self) indecent and without akhlaq because there is no mutah without girls and women.  Without women, there is no mutah so they have to be brought into the conversation.

The topic was exactly this.  Why would Shias support and encourage mutah but get offended when one approaches them for mutah with their womenfolk?  You have unwillingly exposed the Shia hypocrisy by supporting mutah while declaring such men to be indecent and without akhlaq.

This discussion, I believe, is over because this time, you have given a satisfying response.

[iceman]

Thank you for declaring every single Shia supporting mutah ranging from Imams (ra) - although they are innocent of what you ascribe to them - to scholars to laymen (even your own self) indecent and without akhlaq because there is no mutah without girls and women.  Without women, there is no mutah so they have to be brought into the conversation.

The topic was exactly this.  Why would Shias support and encourage mutah but get offended when one approaches them for mutah with their womenfolk?  You have unwillingly exposed the Shia hypocrisy by supporting mutah while declaring such men to be indecent and without akhlaq.

This discussion, I believe, is over because this time, you have given a satisfying response.

What a naive response but I will reply with intellect. You ask a Shia Scholar about Mutah and after his response you directly ask him if he has any close women available so you can do Mutah with them and he gets offended by that and you have a problem with this? Is this what you're trying to say?

Forget about Mutah I'm going to put this forward just to make a point for you to understand what you're saying, you believe in Nikah (Marriage), now if a suni brother asks you that if you've got any close woman like a sister, daughter or niece available for marriage then he would like to take a crack at her how would you feel?

[iceman]

Thank you for declaring every single Shia supporting mutah ranging from Imams (ra) - although they are innocent of what you ascribe to them - to scholars to laymen (even your own self) indecent and without akhlaq because there is no mutah without girls and women.  Without women, there is no mutah so they have to be brought into the conversation.

The topic was exactly this.  Why would Shias support and encourage mutah but get offended when one approaches them for mutah with their womenfolk?  You have unwillingly exposed the Shia hypocrisy by supporting mutah while declaring such men to be indecent and without akhlaq.

This discussion, I believe, is over because this time, you have given a satisfying response.

If someone approached you directly and asked if you had any close women available and ready for marriage (nikah) then he's interested, if this was put directly straight into your face then what would your response and feeling be? What would you say to him?

You disregard all other of my points and only comment on what suits you.😀 What are you hesitant of?

Forget about Shia Imams or Scholars, I will ask myself on your behalf to put an end to your mischief and bring you to a dead end.

[muslim720]

What a naive response but I will reply with intellect.

Intellect or deceit (by trying to straitjacket me with your own scenario)?  After 15 pages, you have finally come to the discussion table, albeit on your own terms as we shall see.

You ask a Shia Scholar about Mutah and after his response you directly ask him if he has any close women available so you can do Mutah with them and he gets offended by that and you have a problem with this? Is this what you're trying to say?

No, this is what you hope I said.  In other words, you want to strawman my argument and morph it into one of your liking, one you can deal with.

Forget about Mutah I'm going to put this forward just to make a point for you to understand what you're saying, you believe in Nikah (Marriage), now if a suni brother asks you that if you've got any close woman like a sister, daughter or niece available for marriage then he would like to take a crack at her how would you feel?

If someone approached you directly and asked if you had any close women available and ready for marriage (nikah) then he's interested, if this was put directly straight into your face then what would your response and feeling be? What would you say to him?

You disregard all other of my points and only comment on what suits you.😀 What are you hesitant of?

I have consolidated both your replies in one because they, essentially, are asking the same thing.  First of all, no, I do not have to go to a Shia scholar and ask him if he has a girl in his family for me to take as my wife in a temporary marriage.  You came up with that very convenient scenario to allow yourself some leverage.  And this is straitjacketing.  Instead, lets says, there is a Shia man - we will call him Feroz - who already knows about mutah and all its rules (he does not need to go to a scholar to learn about mutah.....he already knows).  Now why would your scholars, especially the ones who vehemently support and encourage mutah upon the basis that it is sunnah, get offended if Feroz asks for mutah with someone in their families?  WHY?

Secondly, you asked for my response if a Sunni brother were to ask me if I have someone in my family he could marry (or perform nikah) with.  What is wrong with that?  Maybe you were not taught this as a child but the difference between a decent man and a mischievous one is that the former (for the most part) approaches the father, brother or a close relative of the girl with pure intentions; the latter goes directly after the girl.  That is the distinguishing criterion between men and boys.  So if a decent brother, who is upon the deen, were to ask me if I know any girl, of course I would look around to see if there is anyone (in my immediate family or among my relatives) who would be willing to marry him.  Isn't this the way marriages are arranged?  Sometimes through people who know both families (in other words, they are common to both families and serve as a link) or two families that associate with each other see that two of their children are a good match, so they initiate a familial alliance.

Forget about Shia Imams or Scholars, I will ask myself on your behalf to put an end to your mischief and bring you to a dead end.

Let me show you mischief; see how he is selling the concept of mutah to sisters (this lecture was for sisters).  Do you think he would encourage his own biological sisters to perform mutah?  Would he accept your proposal to commit mutah with his daughter?

[iceman]

Intellect or deceit (by trying to straitjacket me with your own scenario)?  After 15 pages, you have finally come to the discussion table, albeit on your own terms as we shall see.

No, this is what you hope I said.  In other words, you want to strawman my argument and morph it into one of your liking, one you can deal with.

I have consolidated both your replies in one because they, essentially, are asking the same thing.  First of all, no, I do not have to go to a Shia scholar and ask him if he has a girl in his family for me to take as my wife in a temporary marriage.  You came up with that very convenient scenario to allow yourself some leverage.  And this is straitjacketing.  Instead, lets says, there is a Shia man - we will call him Feroz - who already knows about mutah and all its rules (he does not need to go to a scholar to learn about mutah.....he already knows).  Now why would your scholars, especially the ones who vehemently support and encourage mutah upon the basis that it is sunnah, get offended if Feroz asks for mutah with someone in their families?  WHY?

Secondly, you asked for my response if a Sunni brother were to ask me if I have someone in my family he could marry (or perform nikah) with.  What is wrong with that?  Maybe you were not taught this as a child but the difference between a decent man and a mischievous one is that the former (for the most part) approaches the father, brother or a close relative of the girl with pure intentions; the latter goes directly after the girl.  That is the distinguishing criterion between men and boys.  So if a decent brother, who is upon the deen, were to ask me if I know any girl, of course I would look around to see if there is anyone (in my immediate family or among my relatives) who would be willing to marry him.  Isn't this the way marriages are arranged?  Sometimes through people who know both families (in other words, they are common to both families and serve as a link) or two families that associate with each other see that two of their children are a good match, so they initiate a familial alliance.

Let me show you mischief; see how he is selling the concept of mutah to sisters (this lecture was for sisters).  Do you think he would encourage his own biological sisters to perform mutah?  Would he accept your proposal to commit mutah with his daughter?

You're not interested in what Mutah is, what it's for, why it's for and the circumstances and the reason and purpose it's for. I give you an in depth analysis and explanation which you completely disregard and yapp on continuously about what's wrong with someone (feroz) being recommended Mutah then asking the person who recommends it if he can do Mutah with any of his females or if he knows anyone.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role. You're completely disregarding the definition and meaning and the reason and purpose. Mutah isn't an option or choice. All you're doing is jumping up and down trying to point score which isn't happening or working.

Nobody is selling Mutah and nobody is buying it. It's not something for sale or to be bought. It's not a Sunah or something the Prophet (s) practiced openly and commonly for it to be a Sunah. The Prophet (s) made it permissible and you know why. EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES!

Or if you know any other reason why it was made permissible then go ahead and tell me rather than letting off tantrums.

Arranged Marriages, read the word attached 'ARRANGED'. Arranged by whom? By representatives/Guardians/Elders. Excuse me but you're talking nonsense. In the Muslim community it is embarrassing for the girls side even if the boy or man approaches the family of the girl himself and some even  considered such approach by a male  as an insult. They would say to the male that;

" don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative".

I don't know what world and which generation you're living in.

In schools and colleges Muslim Lads frequently look and stare at girls and men at women in the Muslim community. But when it comes to their sisters or daughters (females) they don't want anyone turning their looks in that direction. You know this type of attitude and hypocrisy exists.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in that particular situation or condition or who face it. Yes Mutah is done with women or girls but Mutah isn't just for men it's for women and girls too. In fact not for men and women or boys and girls but for those who face that situation or condition.

Stop playing around and beating around the bush. Any comment from you on Misyar marriage practiced within Ahle Sunah? Mutah was permissible and then made prohibited according to Sunis but what about Misyar marriage which has got nothing to do with Qoran or Sunah or does it?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

You're not interested in what Mutah is, what it's for, why it's for and the circumstances and the reason and purpose it's for. I give you an in depth analysis and explanation which you completely disregard and yapp on continuously about what's wrong with someone (feroz) being recommended Mutah then asking the person who recommends it if he can do Mutah with any of his females or if he knows anyone.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role. You're completely disregarding the definition and meaning and the reason and purpose. Mutah isn't an option or choice. All you're doing is jumping up and down trying to point score which isn't happening or working.

Nobody is selling Mutah and nobody is buying it. It's not something for sale or to be bought. It's not a Sunah or something the Prophet (s) practiced openly and commonly for it to be a Sunah. The Prophet (s) made it permissible and you know why. EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES!

Or if you know any other reason why it was made permissible then go ahead and tell me rather than letting off tantrums.

Arranged Marriages, read the word attached 'ARRANGED'. Arranged by whom? By representatives/Guardians/Elders. Excuse me but you're talking nonsense. In the Muslim community it is embarrassing for the girls side even if the boy or man approaches the family of the girl himself and some even  considered such approach by a male  as an insult. They would say to the male that;

" don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative".

I don't know what world and which generation you're living in.

In schools and colleges Muslim Lads frequently look and stare at girls and men at women in the Muslim community. But when it comes to their sisters or daughters (females) they don't want anyone turning their looks in that direction. You know this type of attitude and hypocrisy exists.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in that particular situation or condition or who face it. Yes Mutah is done with women or girls but Mutah isn't just for men it's for women and girls too. In fact not for men and women or boys and girls but for those who face that situation or condition.

Stop playing around and beating around the bush. Any comment from you on Misyar marriage practiced within Ahle Sunah? Mutah was permissible and then made prohibited according to Sunis but what about Misyar marriage which has got nothing to do with Qoran or Sunah or does it?

Prove from your narrations where it says mutah is for exceptional circumstamces.

I’m not interested in your opinion or your lengthy commentary.

Just show us the 12er narrations to prove it!

[muslim720]

You're not interested in what Mutah is, what it's for, why it's for and the circumstances and the reason and purpose it's for.

Circumstances?  Please provide proof that mutah is only to be contracted under very special and outstanding circumstances.

I give you an in depth analysis and explanation which you completely disregard and yapp on continuously

You have zero authority in the Shia world.  If we have missed your credentials, please state them otherwise, stay silent.

about what's wrong with someone (feroz) being recommended Mutah then asking the person who recommends it if he can do Mutah with any of his females or if he knows anyone.

Yes, what is wrong with approaching someone with the intention to perform an act of sunnah with his sister, daughter or any other family member?  As I said, I do not know of anyone who would be enraged if a brother were to seek his or her approval for nikah (which also is sunnah).  So why this sensitivity towards mutah when your scholars vociferously support and encourage it?

Mutah is recommended to those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role. You're completely disregarding the definition and meaning and the reason and purpose. Mutah isn't an option or choice. All you're doing is jumping up and down trying to point score which isn't happening or working.

Proof?  As for mutah not being an option or choice, are you (in other words) saying that Shia mosques assess each case (as couples walk in) before the couple is allowed to contract mutah?  That's a first!  Again, in all the narrations quoted which support and encourage mutah, show me one which says that mutah is for "those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role".

Nobody is selling Mutah and nobody is buying it.

Not literally but I am sure you are familiar with figures of speech.  To sell the concept of mutah is to say that the speaker (in the video) is trying to gain favor for mutah in the eyes of those present or that he is trying to encourage the listeners to perform mutah, et cetera.

In the Muslim community it is embarrassing for the girls side even if the boy or man approaches the family of the girl himself and some even  considered such approach by a male  as an insult. They would say to the male that;

" don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative".

Wow, you really shot yourself in the foot with this one.

"Two months after the battle of Badr, i.e., in the month of Zilqa'ad (the 11th month) of 2 A.H., Ali called on Muhammad Mustafa, and said: 'O Messenger of God, you have brought me up as your own child.  You have overwhelmed me with your gifts, your generosity and your kindness.  I owe you everything in my life.  Now I seek one more kindness from you.'

The Apostle understood what Ali was trying to say. His face lighted up in a broad smile, and he bade Ali to wait for a few moments until he obtained his daughter's answer.  He entered the house, told Fatima that Ali was asking for her hand in marriage, and asked her what was her response.  She kept quiet.  He interpreted her silence as her assent, returned to Ali, informed him that his proposal was accepted, and told him to make preparations for the wedding." (source: https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/marriage-fatima-zahra-and-ali-ibn-abi)

Taken from a Shia website, are you telling me that the Muslim community has more gheera than the Prophet (saw)?  Or are you now going to claim the the Prophet (saw) made a mistake (naudhubillah) and instead of chastising Imam Ali (ra) by saying "don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative" (your exact words) he (saw) okayed the marriage?  Or will you concede that Imam Ali (ra) was insolent (naudhubillah) to have approached the Prophet (saw) directly without sending any elders?  Way to prove that Imam Ali (ra) did not "have any manners or decency".

And do not dare give me the nonsensical argument that Imam Ali's (ra) parents were not present or anything of that sort.  If no one else (I do not know my history that well), we know Abbas (ra) was alive so Imam Ali (ra) could have sent him.

All throughout this discussion, especially this last point you made, your mouth has been writing checks your @$$ cannot cash.  I apologize for the harsh language but enough is enough.

In schools and colleges Muslim Lads frequently look and stare at girls and men at women in the Muslim community. But when it comes to their sisters or daughters (females) they don't want anyone turning their looks in that direction. You know this type of attitude and hypocrisy exists.

The bigger hypocrisy is when you have scholars encourage something for the sons and daughters of the ummah but they jump out of their chairs, as if sitting on a bed of burning coals, when the same is suggested for their daughters.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in that particular situation or condition or who face it.

Proof?

Stop playing around and beating around the bush. Any comment from you on Misyar marriage practiced within Ahle Sunah? Mutah was permissible and then made prohibited according to Sunis but what about Misyar marriage which has got nothing to do with Qoran or Sunah or does it?

Misyar does not come with an expiration date or time so right off the bat, fallacy of false equivalence.  Also, there is not a single scholar who encourages misyar or has narrated from Jibrail (as) that performing misyar earns Allah's (swt) forgiveness.

[muslim720]

It's not a Sunah or something the Prophet (s) practiced openly and commonly for it to be a Sunah. The Prophet (s) made it permissible and you know why. EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES!

As-Saduq declared it a sunnah (in fact, a habit) of the Prophet (saw) in the following hadith:

[ 26389 ] 2 ـ قال الصدوق : وقال الصادق ( عليه السلام ) : اني لاكره للرجل أن يموت وقد بقيت عليه خلة من خلال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) لم يأتها ، فقلت : فهل تمتع رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) ؟ قال : نعم وقرأ هذه الآية : ( وإذ أسر النبي إلى بعض أزواجه حديثا ـ إلى قوله : ـ ثيبات وأبكارا ) .

2 – As-Saduq said: As-Sadiq عليه السلام said: I dislike that the man should die and there remain upon him a habit from the habits of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله which he has not carried out.  So I said: So did the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله do mut`a?  He said: Yes, and he recited this verse “And when the Prophet disclosed a matter to one of his wives” – until His saying – “previously married and virgins.” (66:3-5)

Here is another narration declaring mutah to be sunnah.

[ 26398 ] 11 ـ وبالاسناد عن ابن عيسى ، عن ابن الحجاج ، عن العلا ، عن محمد بن مسلم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال لي : تمتعت ؟ قلت : لا ، قال : لا تخرج من الدنيا حتى تحيي السنة .

11 – And by the isnad from Ibn `Isa from Ibn al-Hajjaj from al-`Ala from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: He said to me: Have you done mut`a?  I said: No.  He said: Do not leave the world until you have revived the Sunna.

[ 26393 ] 6 ـ وفي ( الخصال ) : عن أبيه ، عن سعد ، عن حماد بن يعلى بن حماد ، عن أبيه ، عن حماد بن عيسى ، عن حريز بن عبدالله ، عن زرارة بن أعين ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : لهو المؤمن في ثلاثة أشياء : التمتع بالنساء ومفاكهة الاخوان ، والصلاة بالليل .

6 – And in al-Khisal from his father from Sa`d from Hammad b. Ya`la b. Hammad from his father from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz b. `Abdillah from Zurara b. A`yan from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.  He said: The amusement (lahw) of the believer is in three things: Mut`a with women and joking with brethren and salat at night.

Still want to preach that mutah is for those with exceptional circumstances?

All narrations were borrowed from brother Ebn Hussein's research (source: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/ibn-abbas-belief-of-mut'ah-vs-the-rafidi-belief-of-mut'ah-learn-the-difference/)

In conclusion, please address the following points:

1.  Does the Muslim community have more gheera than the Prophet (saw)?

2.  Was Imam Ali (ra) indecent and without manners for directly asking the Prophet (saw) for the hand of Fatima (ra)?

3.  Do you still deny that mutah was sunnah?

4.  And where is your proof that mutah is for those with exceptional circumstances?  On the contrary, your own hadith says it is for amusement.