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Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?

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iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #380 on: February 12, 2018, 10:09:25 AM »
A twelver belief would be from a twelver source.

You have failed to provide this yet claim authority on the 12er position.

Deluded.


And what would be a twelver source?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #381 on: February 12, 2018, 11:55:46 AM »
And what would be a twelver source?

The Quran or a hadith from the Imams

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #382 on: February 12, 2018, 04:53:40 PM »
I don't think that's 100% correct. If one already has a Muslim wife and:
- wants to permanently marry and the wife doesn't consent, this is forbidden due to obligatory precaution.
- wants to permanently marry and the wife consents, this is forbidden due to obligatory precaution.
- wants to temporarily marry and the wife doesn't consent, this is haram without a doubt.
- wants to temporarily marry and the wife consents, this is forbidden due to obligatory precaution.

This is the way I understood Sistani's fatwa.

What is the difference between what you wrote and what I wrote?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #383 on: February 12, 2018, 10:19:30 PM »
The Quran or a hadith from the Imams

Ok, lets start off with the Qoran. What does the Qoran say about Mutah? Well it's obvious that when the Prophet made Mutah permissible then it must have been fine with Allah and the Qoran which is Allah's words. Now the difference between me and you lies with the Prophet . You believe that the Prophet prohibited Mutah and we believe he didn't. You haven't given me any explanation and reasoning to why the Prophet prohibited it to further the discussion. So this chapter is closed and done with.

Now any Sunni Scholar and what ever they say or have written, or any book written/put together by a Sunni regardless of how authentic it is, would it be reasonable and fair to say it would be part off the Sunni faith and belief? Should I automatically accept everything and anything from any Sunni scholar or book and believe that it is part of the Sunni belief and the view of the entire Sunni community? I am absolutely sure you understand where I am coming from. The same exactly applies to us. I rest this one with you.

Now when it comes to narrations or Hadiths, we do not accept anything and everything put forward to us and labelled by any Shia Imam or even the Prophet . It has to be examined and carefully looked at and the Qoran is the measuring device. Mujtahids, Ayatollahs/Scholars, their Fatwas and statements given need to be carefully understood. And the one who issues the Fatwa or gives the statement can only give a clear explanation and understanding about it. This is the same as narrations and hadiths. Just picking up and taking a hadith/narration/fatwa/statement and giving it your own explanation based on what you have understood has no ground.

There are two things here, Mutah is taboo within the Shia communitiy and Mutah is Mustahab [recomended] in the Jafferi [12r] sect. This is your belief and understanding. Is Mutah really taboo within the Shia communtiy or is it just not commonly and openly practiced? Which is it? Ask the Shias rather than jumping up and down yourself. According to Shia Scholar/s Mutah is Mustahab [recomended], what does this mean and how and in what way? Are there terms and conditions to it or what's the actual story? Ask the Scholars and get a full and up to date explanation and understanding rather than taking things out of context and giving them your own desired understanding and meaning.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #384 on: February 12, 2018, 11:39:56 PM »
Ok, lets start off with the Qoran. What does the Qoran say about Mutah? Well it's obvious that when the Prophet made Mutah permissible then it must have been fine with Allah and the Qoran which is Allah's words. Now the difference between me and you lies with the Prophet . You believe that the Prophet prohibited Mutah and we believe he didn't. You haven't given me any explanation and reasoning to why the Prophet prohibited it to further the discussion. So this chapter is closed and done with.

Now any Sunni Scholar and what ever they say or have written, or any book written/put together by a Sunni regardless of how authentic it is, would it be reasonable and fair to say it would be part off the Sunni faith and belief? Should I automatically accept everything and anything from any Sunni scholar or book and believe that it is part of the Sunni belief and the view of the entire Sunni community? I am absolutely sure you understand where I am coming from. The same exactly applies to us. I rest this one with you.

Now when it comes to narrations or Hadiths, we do not accept anything and everything put forward to us and labelled by any Shia Imam or even the Prophet . It has to be examined and carefully looked at and the Qoran is the measuring device. Mujtahids, Ayatollahs/Scholars, their Fatwas and statements given need to be carefully understood. And the one who issues the Fatwa or gives the statement can only give a clear explanation and understanding about it. This is the same as narrations and hadiths. Just picking up and taking a hadith/narration/fatwa/statement and giving it your own explanation based on what you have understood has no ground.

There are two things here, Mutah is taboo within the Shia communitiy and Mutah is Mustahab [recomended] in the Jafferi [12r] sect. This is your belief and understanding. Is Mutah really taboo within the Shia communtiy or is it just not commonly and openly practiced? Which is it? Ask the Shias rather than jumping up and down yourself. According to Shia Scholar/s Mutah is Mustahab [recomended], what does this mean and how and in what way? Are there terms and conditions to it or what's the actual story? Ask the Scholars and get a full and up to date explanation and understanding rather than taking things out of context and giving them your own desired understanding and meaning.

Not a single verse from the Quran or a hadith from the Imams.

Just you waffling as usual.


iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #385 on: February 13, 2018, 08:39:14 AM »
Not a single verse from the Quran or a hadith from the Imams.

Just you waffling as usual.

I know this is an extremely lost argument for you.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #386 on: February 13, 2018, 11:54:05 AM »
I know this is an extremely lost argument for you.

Trolling now are we.

You claim to follow Quran & Sunnah but can’t provide a single shred of evidence from the Quran or a hadith from your Imams.

Come on iceman. Not even one verse or hadith from the Imams?


iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #387 on: February 13, 2018, 12:31:47 PM »
Trolling now are we.

You claim to follow Quran & Sunnah but can’t provide a single shred of evidence from the Quran or a hadith from your Imams.

Come on iceman. Not even one verse or hadith from the Imams?

What is it that you want? What are you looking for? The Prophet (s) made Mutah permissible, he allowed it. And surely there must have been a reason and purpose for it. What are you running from? Why are you avoiding this?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 12:35:57 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #388 on: February 13, 2018, 12:42:10 PM »
Not a single verse from the Quran or a hadith from the Imams.

Just you waffling as usual.

Well it's obvious, you can't answer any question or ccomment 'on any point. So it has to be waffling to you.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #389 on: February 13, 2018, 01:09:05 PM »
What is it that you want? What are you looking for? The Prophet (s) made Mutah permissible, he allowed it. And surely there must have been a reason and purpose for it. What are you running from? Why are you avoiding this?

I’m not running away. The topic is not whether the Prophet SAW made mutah permissable.
Rather it is mutah & its standing in 12er shi’ism.
You believe mutah is still permissable but only in certain circumstances.
You have failed to provide any hadiths from your Imams to back the latter claim.

Even if we both can say for arguments sake that mutah is permissable & was never banned.
Where is your proof its only permissable in certain extreme circumstances? Which of the 12 Imams said this in your hadiths?

The proof has been established that 12ers believe mutah is a recommended act & is praiseworthy without restricting it to extreme circumstances.
You have failed to provide one single hadith from the Imams to disprove this.
You & some modern shia scholars views that its for extreme circumstances is a new modern belief that is not supported by any hadith from your Imams.





« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 01:10:10 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #390 on: February 13, 2018, 11:24:29 PM »
I’m not running away. The topic is not whether the Prophet SAW made mutah permissable.
Rather it is mutah & its standing in 12er shi’ism.
You believe mutah is still permissable but only in certain circumstances.
You have failed to provide any hadiths from your Imams to back the latter claim.

Even if we both can say for arguments sake that mutah is permissable & was never banned.
Where is your proof its only permissable in certain extreme circumstances? Which of the 12 Imams said this in your hadiths?

The proof has been established that 12ers believe mutah is a recommended act & is praiseworthy without restricting it to extreme circumstances.
You have failed to provide one single hadith from the Imams to disprove this.
You & some modern shia scholars views that its for extreme circumstances is a new modern belief that is not supported by any hadith from your Imams.

First of all you are among the accusers and you behave as the accused. Secondly the one who accuses should provide evidence and references to back their claim but you expect the accused to provide evidence of their innocence. The headline or title for this thread is, 'IS MUTAH REALLY HALAL FOR SHIA'. You're trying to prove that Mutah is considered halal but when it actually comes to doing it people frown and refrain from it. So therefore it is considered Taboo. I have already addressed this.

Then it has been claimed and you're trying to prove in this thread that according to Shia Scholars Mutah is a very virtuous and praiseworthy act by itself and on its own and is very rewarding like Umrah or Hajj. I have already said that you're taking things out of context and giving it your own desired explanation, understanding and meaning. You haven't provided any clear evidence from Shia Scholars regarding meaning, explanation and understanding about their Fatwas. It has to come from them and not you or anyone else.   

I have contributed a lot to this thread, not for you or anyone else but for the audience/viewers who are or will be  mislead about my community. Now your points in your present post, yes I most certainly do believe Mutah is permissible and I most certainly stand my ground. But not with arrogance and ignorance but with explanation and reasoning. You want references as evidence from me about my view from a Shia Scholar or one of the Shia Imams. I find this surprising that I give you evidence from a much more higher and superior authority and that is RASULULLAH but this doesn't satisfy you and doesn't sit well with you, but why?

If there is something clear and direct from the top man RASULULLAH himself then why should I turn to the Imams or Scholars who are well below and of a much lesser authority? You provide me with evidence that it is not as such. No proof has been established that Mutah is a virtuous and praiseworthy act on its own and by itself and will be highly rewarded like Umrah, Ziyaraath or Hajj according to the 12rs. You're putting forward views of certain Scholars and taking them out of context and giving them your own meaning, explanation and understanding.

By the way you have ended your post well by saying, "you and some modern Shia Scholars view that it's for extreme circumstances is a new modern belief" brother this is exactly what Fiqh is all about. Scholars hold different views be it Shia or Suni. Why take the view that suits you and your purpose and hold the entire Shia community at ransom over and because of that view? The 12r Madhab as you call it doesn't depend on the view of one or some Scholars. This is excatly what i have been trying to explain all along. And the same applies to Sunis.

If something is on offer or on sale or there is a benefit or comfort available/been given then surely and most certainly there will be terms and conditions attached to it and there will be a reason and purpose to it. What world do you guys live in, with adhab. Tell me or give me anything which isn't subject to terms and conditions and which doesn't have a reason and purpose? The Prophet made Mutah permissible and surely and most certainly there must have been a reason and purpose for it. And we all know by now what that is, EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES and terms and conditions were attached to it. This is exactly the view of the 12r sect.

We stand firm and united with RASULULLAH and anything and everything that goes against it we do not accept. People have different views and opinion including you and I absolutely and completely understand that.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #391 on: February 14, 2018, 12:29:54 AM »
First of all you are among the accusers and you behave as the accused. Secondly the one who accuses should provide evidence and references to back their claim but you expect the accused to provide evidence of their innocence. The headline or title for this thread is, 'IS MUTAH REALLY HALAL FOR SHIA'. You're trying to prove that Mutah is considered halal but when it actually comes to doing it people frown and refrain from it. So therefore it is considered Taboo. I have already addressed this.

Then it has been claimed and you're trying to prove in this thread that according to Shia Scholars Mutah is a very virtuous and praiseworthy act by itself and on its own and is very rewarding like Umrah or Hajj. I have already said that you're taking things out of context and giving it your own desired explanation, understanding and meaning. You haven't provided any clear evidence from Shia Scholars regarding meaning, explanation and understanding about their Fatwas. It has to come from them and not you or anyone else.   

I have contributed a lot to this thread, not for you or anyone else but for the audience/viewers who are or will be  mislead about my community. Now your points in your present post, yes I most certainly do believe Mutah is permissible and I most certainly stand my ground. But not with arrogance and ignorance but with explanation and reasoning. You want references as evidence from me about my view from a Shia Scholar or one of the Shia Imams. I find this surprising that I give you evidence from a much more higher and superior authority and that is RASULULLAH but this doesn't satisfy you and doesn't sit well with you, but why?

If there is something clear and direct from the top man RASULULLAH himself then why should I turn to the Imams or Scholars who are well below and of a much lesser authority? You provide me with evidence that it is not as such. No proof has been established that Mutah is a virtuous and praiseworthy act on its own and by itself and will be highly rewarded like Umrah, Ziyaraath or Hajj according to the 12rs. You're putting forward views of certain Scholars and taking them out of context and giving them your own meaning, explanation and understanding.

By the way you have ended your post well by saying, "you and some modern Shia Scholars view that it's for extreme circumstances is a new modern belief" brother this is exactly what Fiqh is all about. Scholars hold different views be it Shia or Suni. Why take the view that suits you and your purpose and hold the entire Shia community at ransom over and because of that view? The 12r Madhab as you call it doesn't depend on the view of one or some Scholars. This is excatly what i have been trying to explain all along. And the same applies to Sunis.

If something is on offer or on sale or there is a benefit or comfort available/been given then surely and most certainly there will be terms and conditions attached to it and there will be a reason and purpose to it. What world do you guys live in, with adhab. Tell me or give me anything which isn't subject to terms and conditions and which doesn't have a reason and purpose? The Prophet made Mutah permissible and surely and most certainly there must have been a reason and purpose for it. And we all know by now what that is, EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES and terms and conditions were attached to it. This is exactly the view of the 12r sect.

We stand firm and united with RASULULLAH and anything and everything that goes against it we do not accept. People have different views and opinion including you and I absolutely and completely understand that.

So you admit you cannot provide anything from your Imams.
You claim you have provided proof from the Prophet SAW. What from sunni sources? Forget sunni sources. They are the followers of muawiya remember.
Where is this proof from the prophet SAW or his ahle bayt from your sources? Nothing in Quran, nothing in your hadith.

You have lost the plot.
You can’t find anything from your hadith books so you follow the sunni hadith books on this matter.

Are you a sunni 12er now?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:31:02 AM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #392 on: February 14, 2018, 06:06:45 PM »
Whoever says mut'ah is only halal under extreme circumstances is adopting a shadh view which does not represent the sayings of the greats amongst our fuqaha, whether they are dead or alive.

Mut'ah is halal and mustahab in and of itself, and it is a rewarding practice, but in some circumstances it can not be considered recommended. And there are proofs in our books to back that up.

I believe I posted this before, but these are some hadiths which can be used as proof to advise against mut'ah in some cases;

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031609-dr-farrokh-sekaleshfar-slams-mutah-obsessives/?do=findComment&comment=2824204
محور المقاومة والممانعة

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #393 on: February 14, 2018, 06:58:58 PM »
Whoever says mut'ah is only halal under extreme circumstances is adopting a shadh view which does not represent the sayings of the greats amongst our fuqaha, whether they are dead or alive.

Mut'ah is halal and mustahab in and of itself, and it is a rewarding practice, but in some circumstances it can not be considered recommended. And there are proofs in our books to back that up.

I believe I posted this before, but these are some hadiths which can be used as proof to advise against mut'ah in some cases;

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031609-dr-farrokh-sekaleshfar-slams-mutah-obsessives/?do=findComment&comment=2824204

Iceman what do you have to say about this?

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #394 on: February 14, 2018, 07:38:25 PM »
So you admit you cannot provide anything from your Imams.
You claim you have provided proof from the Prophet SAW. What from sunni sources? Forget sunni sources. They are the followers of muawiya remember.
Where is this proof from the prophet SAW or his ahle bayt from your sources? Nothing in Quran, nothing in your hadith.

You have lost the plot.
You can’t find anything from your hadith books so you follow the sunni hadith books on this matter.

Are you a sunni 12er now?

I admit that there is no need for me to provide anything from a lesser authority than Allah [Qoran] and Prophet [Sunah]. Those matters which are crystal clear from Qoran and Sunah do not need to be looked at further on grounds of evidence/proof. Those matters which are not obviously would be subject to such. For example a brother on another thread mentioned that as far as Ahle Sunah are concerned Allah [Qoran] and the Prophet [Sunah] are silent when it comes to the direct successor to Muhammad . Now such matters need to be looked at carefully.

I have mentioned this before but I will mention it again because it's important and related. You have the Messenger , when it comes to reality and facts and what is commonly agreed upon one does not need further  clarification/explanation or evidence/proof. The Prophet , not anyone else where one needs to look into but the Prophet himself made Mutah permissible, he allowed it.

BUT WHY? What was the reason and purpose? Surely there must be. Now was Mutah practiced openly and commonly during the Prophet's time? Was Mutah not practiced during the Prophet's time based on EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES? Were there not terms and conditions? This is the main point and argument which you're avoiding. This is what needs to be discussed and ironed out and only then we can get a clear picture.

Now the references you and other brothers have quoted from Shia Scholar/s and sources can they be examined and backed by Allah [Qoran] and or Prophet [Sunah]? This is what is vital and extremely important. And those references from Shia sources that have been quoted what exactly is their explanation and understanding? They need to be clarified.

You mentioned the name 'Moawiya'. What has this name and individual got to do with this thread and discussion. Please don't bring in any companions into the discussion who don't have anything to do with it. Reality and facts, what is agreed upon collectively has got nothing to do with Shia or Suni or doesn't require evidence/proof.

iceman

Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
« Reply #395 on: February 14, 2018, 07:56:56 PM »
Iceman what do you have to say about this?

This is to you and the one who forward it, to both brothers. Those references which have been quoted from Shia sources and be it Scholars or books are they above Allah [Qoran] and the Messenger [Sunah]? Secondly what has been quoted who can explain and clarify that and give the exact understanding and reason and purpose to and for it? You and I? What, us lot?

Thirdly and most importantly did or did not the Prophet himself made Mutah permissible? Yes or no? We all know the answer to this and WHO DISAGREES? ANYONE? Why and what for was Mutah made permissible? What was the reason and purpose? What did the Prophet exactly say about Mutah? Why and how was Mutah practiced during the Prophet's time?

This is excatly what needs to be looked at and discussed. I am not saying that Mutah needs to be practiced due to exceptional circumstances or based on terms and conditions due to extreme and urgent situations. What I am saying is what exactly was the situation of Mutah during the Prophet's time? This is what needs to be looked at and applied. This is what needs to be taken into account.

The rest is the opinion and point of view of Scholars. And be it Shia or Suni Scholars do disagree with each other some matters of Fiqh.

 

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