`Ali: "The Qur'an is your Imam"

[Hani]

Salam,


Not sure if I translated this one on this forum or not, here it is either-way for your enjoyment. {We will call every people with their Imam}


`Ali bin abi Talib is criticizing certain people in Nahj-ul-Balaghah Sermon 147:



[فَقَدْ نَبَذَ الْكِتَابَ حَمَلَتُهُ، وَتَنَاسَاهُ حَفَظَتُهُ; فَالْكِتَابُ يَوْمَئِذ وَأَهْلُهُ مَنْفِيَّانِ طَرِيَدانِ، وَصَاحِبَانِ مُصْطَحِبَانِ فِي طَرِيق وَاحِد لاَ يُؤْوِيهِمَا مُؤْو; فَالْكِتَابُ وَأَهْلُهُ فِي ذلِكَ الزَّمَانِ فِي النَّاسِ وَلَيْسَا فِيهِمْ، وَمَعَهُمْ وَلَيْسَا مَعَهُمْ! لاِنَّ الضَّلاَلَةَ لاَ تُوَافِقُ الْهُدَى، وَإِنِ اجْتَمَعَا، فَاجْتَمَعَ الْقَوْمُ عَلَى الْفُرْقَةِ، وَافْتَرَقُوا عَنِ الْجَمَاعَةِ، كَأَنَّهُمْ أَئِمَّةُ الْكِتَابِ وَلَيْسَ الْكِتَابُ إِمَامَهُمْ]


[Those who carry the Book (i.e Qur'an) have dismissed it while those who had it memorized attempt to forget it (...etc...) they agreed to be divided and abandoned the united majority (Jam`ah); acting as if they're the Imams of the Book instead of accepting the Book as their Imam.]

[Link]

Thank you for showing the only legitimate leaders have to people who are the manifest book and reminder themselves something the Quran emphasizes on with regard to the past when book of Moses was an Imam but only through the imams who guide by god's command and the 12 captains that are the name of God by which the boat of salvation is steered. This shows wisdom in Quran telling us to ask the family of the reminder as the guided ones who God guides others by are found therein.  The unity which you translated as majority group is suppose to holding on to the rope from god and rope from humans which forms the rope of god!

[Hani]

Say what?

[Link]

Say what?

The two weighty never separate

[Hani]

Ah sorry mate, we only intend to use these arguments against intelligent people.

[Link]

Ah sorry mate, we only intend to use these arguments against intelligent people.

Even a child can See the need of authoritive interpreters.

[Hani]

Where's the authoritative interpreter, point him out to me because I have a couple of questions.

[Link]

Where's the authoritative interpreter, point him out to me because I have a couple of questions.

Playing the Ghayba card, is that all you guys got?

[Hani]

Yes, your belief is so weak that one card can destroy it. Alhamdulillah for Sunnah.

[Link]

Yes, your belief is so weak that one card can destroy it. Alhamdulillah for Sunnah.

A great portion of the Quran is about the wisdom of Al-Ghayba. Start paying attention.

[Hani]

Then anyone can claim anything and say "You can't see it as it is hidden" then say "Qur'an has a philosophy of Ghaybah".

Fantastic philosophy, keep it up.

[Hani]

Even a child can See the need of authoritive interpreters.

Where's the authoritative interpreter? I do sense a great need for him now to settle our debate, point him out that we may seek his needed guidance perhaps?

Otherwise, please explain why there is a "Need of authoritive interpreter" and yet they're not available? Why would humans need something and not have it provided by God?

[Link]

Even a child can See the need of authoritive interpreters.

Where's the authoritative interpreter? I do sense a great need for him now to settle our debate, point him out that we may seek his needed guidance perhaps?

Otherwise, please explain why there is a "Need of authoritive interpreter" and yet they're not available? Why would humans need something and not have it provided by God?

It's been explained many times. It's sad that you always resort to this and seek to make it the topic of every thread.

[Hani]

That's our main difference, you like to waste time while I cut to the chase. Instead of debating your impractical theory I'm showing you how impractical it is and my argument is as clear as the sun in the sky for all readers. Whereas you have to write paragraphs that don't make sense nor appeal to intellect and if discussed rationally wouldn't stand the test.

[Link]

That's our main difference, you like to waste time while I cut to the chase. Instead of debating your impractical theory I'm showing you how impractical it is and my argument is as clear as the sun in the sky for all readers. Whereas you have to write paragraphs that don't make sense nor appeal to intellect and if discussed rationally wouldn't stand the test.

I do it shortly, you ask for more detail. I elaborate, you complain. There is no pleasing you. All I can say is Quran provides a perfect explanation.

[Hani]

What you do is claim something outrageous that is unheard of then when asked for evidence you take a random verse and give it a two page explanation to twist it towards your belief.

[Link]

What you do is claim something outrageous that is unheard of then when asked for evidence you take a random verse and give it a two page explanation to twist it towards your belief.

Ok...I get it, you think I am twisting Quran.

The Quran contains all guidance we need, but it's a matter of perceptions.

Those insights and perceptions are to be in the firmly rooted in knowledge, the family of the reminder, those who possess the authority from us, the Captains who sail the boat by the name of God, the foremost of those raced ahead, the chosen who inherited the book, the close kin of Mohammad, the people of the purified household, the 2nd of the two weighty things left by the Prophet, the people who guide by the truth, the Leaders who guide by God's command, those who are the light brought down and the reminder itself, the clear proof just like the Messenger.

You are trying to separate all the verses which are trying to illuminate the same argument from different angles. 

Enter the door God has opened, appreciate the Twelve Streams. Quran is beautiful through them.

The Quran also talks about the book of Moses being an Imam, but we know this was coupled with leaders who guide by God's command and through the likes of Aeron who would explain the words of Moses to the people and make them understand and untie the knot of Moses's tongue due the covering on people's ears.

It takes time. But you know the truth. It's time to accept. It won't hurt.

Yes Shiism as it is now, is a mess. Don't get me wrong. But you can be an asset to God and the Guardian from him, who leads people from the darkness to the light by God's permission and calls them to God by God's permission.

Believe in the unseen, and believe that there is only one name of God to hold on to and is not for us to pick righteous and make whatever tree we like and say it is light, rather the leader by which all human and Jinn are to glorify God through and come towards God through is chosen by God.

[Hani]

See how you waste time? for example this entire paragraph:

Those insights and perceptions are to be in the firmly rooted in knowledge, the family of the reminder, those who possess the authority from us, the Captains who sail the boat by the name of God, the foremost of those raced ahead, the chosen who inherited the book, the close kin of Mohammad, the people of the purified household, the 2nd of the two weighty things left by the Prophet, the people who guide by the truth, the Leaders who guide by God's command, those who are the light brought down and the reminder itself, the clear proof just like the Messenger.

This whole thing could have been summarized by "12 leaders from the household."

You are trying to separate all the verses which are trying to illuminate the same argument from different angles. 


Enter the door God has opened, appreciate the Twelve Streams. Quran is beautiful through them.

What kind of argument is this!? That's your "angles"? God creating "twelve streams" for twelve tribes?

The Quran also talks about the book of Moses being an Imam, but we know this was coupled with leaders who guide by God's command and through the likes of Aeron who would explain the words of Moses to the people and make them understand and untie the knot of Moses's tongue due the covering on people's ears.

Books came with Messengers, they didn't just fall out of the sky. Messengers explained their books to the people. Our nation received its book, preserved it, understood it and carried its teachings around the world. Now we are being tested by how much we can stick to this guidance and how faithful we are to the Lord. A new prophet wouldn't add or subtract anything from what was already revealed and preserved.


Otherwise, if we had not preserved the book, or not understood the message, then God should have blessed us with more prophets as he did past nations.

It takes time. But you know the truth. It's time to accept. It won't hurt.

I am afraid I'd hurt your feelings if I told you what you sound like.

Yes Shiism as it is now, is a mess. Don't get me wrong. But you can be an asset to God and the Guardian from him, who leads people from the darkness to the light by God's permission and calls them to God by God's permission.

You have my promise and God is my witness, that if this individual ever came out, he'd have my allegiance and loyalty. Currently, I can only believe in the common Islamic version of the Mahdi since that is backed by solid evidence.


If it turns out your 12th Imam does exist and is actually the Mahdi, if by chance all those thousands of Sunnah books preserved by the nation were incorrect, while only the small handful of Twelver books were right (which is VERY unlikely) then we'd have to follow the truth at the end of the day.


Issues with your 12th Imam are many, I've written articles about the narrations of his birth and he seems like a very clear fabrication. Historical reports of Shia sects also clearly point to him being fabricated. Authenticity of narrations even for Shia are shaky in regards to this man. Authentic Sunnah disproves him clearly etc...