سلام علیک
For all the fellow ex-shias, I have been wondering.
How did your family/friends/community take it?
Are you the only ex-shia you know of?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?
Are you a specific madhab?
Currently I'm planning to tell my family I'm not Shia after I'm married. :P
Thanks for reading, Allah Hafiz
I don't think I'm going to here from you now. If I do I'm sure it wont be positive but lets see.
To be fair though, 99.9999999% of my family isn't religious at all. Just my grandma. And my aunt. And my gay cousin :-\
Are you a specific madhab?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?
I lol'ed @ gay cousin being religious. =))
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.
There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:
The Rise of the Sunnis & EX-Shias [VIDEO]: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-%28video%29/
Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/
As for my story, well It's a bit long, maybe I write something about it one day, as for now here is ONE of MANY main reasons why I believe that Shiism is the religion of satan and the unholy progeny of satan (it's written by myself but from brother Ibn Al-Hindi's aka swords of sunnah's amazing blog) and not the religion and school of the Ahl Al-Bayt:
http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/from-whom-do-you-take-your-religion/
As for our families, well, it's kinda private question, but those who like can answer of course. May Allah bless you for leaving the religion of shirk for Islam, Tawhid and Sunnah.
As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.
sAre you a specific madhab?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?
You can pick any Madhab you like, they're all the same.
And we eat from Shia yes.
I don't think I'm going to here from you now. If I do I'm sure it wont be positive but lets see.
Clear sign of ta3assub/bias. Zindiqs like you will only get impressed by zandaqah, not by tawhid and iman, so get out of here if you have already made up your mind.
And you eat from Shias??? Really??? I thought Shias were Kafir according to you boys. Is a Kafir not najas according to you??? May be you can enlighten me about najaasath according to you.
There is a hell of a lot of difference between the four schools of thought. And if there isn't then which Sunni did he become and why not the other???
I lol'ed @ gay cousin being religious. =))
Yeah lol. He is the only one in my family that has a problem with Shias. Said I was going to hell.
On the other hand, he just recently gay married his long time boyfriend that he lives with. So I'm not sure how serious to take him.
On the other hand, he just recently gay married his long time boyfriend that he lives with. So I'm not sure how serious to take him.
Oh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p
QuoteOh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p
^ ;D
I lol'ed @ gay cousin being religious. =))
Yeah lol. He is the only one in my family that has a problem with Shias. Said I was going to hell.
On the other hand, he just recently gay married his long time boyfriend that he lives with. So I'm not sure how serious to take him.
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.The article you wrote was really good, a lot better than the posts I've read from ex-sunnis (who are usually ignorant about their faith)
There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:
...
As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.
How can your cousin call himself religious and practice sodomy, then tell you you're going to hell? Did he do a 'nikah' or no? This is too weird :o
To be fair though, 99.9999999% of my family isn't religious at all. Just my grandma. And my aunt. And my gay cousin :-\
How can your cousin call himself religious and practice sodomy, then tell you you're going to hell? Did he do a 'nikah' or no? This is too weird :o
Don't believe people's random stories online brother.
I told you how to find out, open the books of Fiqh and READ!
I'm not going to do it for you.
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.
There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:
The Rise of the Sunnis & EX-Shias [VIDEO]: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-%28video%29/
Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/
As for my story, well It's a bit long, maybe I write something about it one day, as for now here is ONE of MANY main reasons why I believe that Shiism is the religion of satan and the unholy progeny of satan (it's written by myself but from brother Ibn Al-Hindi's aka swords of sunnah's amazing blog) and not the religion and school of the Ahl Al-Bayt:
http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/from-whom-do-you-take-your-religion/
As for our families, well, it's kinda private question, but those who like can answer of course. May Allah bless you for leaving the religion of shirk for Islam, Tawhid and Sunnah.
As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.
Just because a person says the shahada doesn't make them a Muslim. The Qadianis say shahada, love Hazrat Muhammad (saw), pray, ect, but are unanimously declared as kaafir by Sunnis and shias. Same thing with Quranists, agha khanis, and definetly some twelvers.
Your words,
"Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/"
So tell me how did this Rafidi member, from the old forum whom you debated for ten years yourself, become a Muslim??? How do you become a Muslim from a Rafidi??? What did he have to say or do??? Or what did you make him say or do??? How do you become a Muslim??? By saying Shahadathain, yes??? The Rafidi (Shia) already believes in and says the Shahadathain, so what does he further say or do to become a Muslim??? Well come on hot shot!
Just because a person says the shahada doesn't make them a Muslim. The Qadianis say shahada, love Hazrat Muhammad (saw), pray, ect, but are unanimously declared as kaafir by Sunnis and shias. Same thing with Quranists, agha khanis, and definetly some twelvers.
Your words,
"Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/"
So tell me how did this Rafidi member, from the old forum whom you debated for ten years yourself, become a Muslim??? How do you become a Muslim from a Rafidi??? What did he have to say or do??? Or what did you make him say or do??? How do you become a Muslim??? By saying Shahadathain, yes??? The Rafidi (Shia) already believes in and says the Shahadathain, so what does he further say or do to become a Muslim??? Well come on hot shot!
Continued!
To enter Islam by becoming a Muslim one must say the Shahadah, one must give the two testimonies;
1, Ash hado an la ilahaa illallah ho wahdahu la sharee Kalah.
I swear that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only one, he has no associate or partner.
2, Ash hado Anna Muhammadan abdohu Wa Rasool.
I swear that Mhuammad (pbuh) is his Prophet and spokesman.
Now anyone who says and believes in this, is a Muslim. The ones who don't accept and believe in this are called nonbelievers (kafir).
To reject "Nabuwath" or any part or bit of it, results in "Kufar"[/size]. And to associate anything, anyone or yourself to "Allah" results in "Shirk".
Continued!
To enter Islam by becoming a Muslim one must say the Shahadah, one must give the two testimonies;
1, Ash hado an la ilahaa illallah ho wahdahu la sharee Kalah.
I swear that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and he is the only one, he has no associate or partner.
2, Ash hado Anna Muhammadan abdohu Wa Rasool.
I swear that Mhuammad (pbuh) is his Prophet and spokesman.
Now anyone who says and believes in this, is a Muslim. The ones who don't accept and believe in this are called nonbelievers (kafir).
But according to Shia Imam, not believing in just 1 of the 12 = rejecting Nubuwwah (the second testimony).
Let me quote what you wrote in the other thread http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-discussion/smashing-the-myth-of-taking-ahlulbayt-as-the-only-conveyors-of-islamic-knowledge/msg1271/#msg1271QuoteTo reject "Nabuwath" or any part or bit of it, results in "Kufar"[/size]. And to associate anything, anyone or yourself to "Allah" results in "Shirk".
So using your definition plus imam's saying, then Ebn Hussein, me & all Sunni of this world don't believe in the other half of shahada. What does it make us? Muslim?
Rather than answering the matter your turning it around and derailing it. According to certain brothers some Shias are considered Kafir because of their belief and faith. You haven't told me how this would make them a kafir. How would you be a kafir if you accused certain companions of being half hearted Muslims or having a weak Eemaan??? Or if you accused certain companions or wives of the Propher (pbuh) of having sinned, how would this make you a kafir??? Or what other belief would throw you out of the fold of Islam. Prove or at least explain this to me through Quran and Sunnah rather than what you, I or anybody else thinks.
Plus brother Hadrami, I asked you about who wouldn't remain a Muslim through Quran and Sunnah, according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Not what I or you think. I did mention Nabuwath but where did I say that you would be a kafir or would become one if you didn't accept Shia Imamath???
Brothers need to explain why they consider certain other Muslims as kafir and out of the fold of Islam.
Rather than answering the matter your turning it around and derailing it. According to certain brothers some Shias are considered Kafir because of their belief and faith. You haven't told me how this would make them a kafir. How would you be a kafir if you accused certain companions of being half hearted Muslims or having a weak Eemaan??? Or if you accused certain companions or wives of the Propher (pbuh) of having sinned, how would this make you a kafir??? Or what other belief would throw you out of the fold of Islam. Prove or at least explain this to me through Quran and Sunnah rather than what you, I or anybody else thinks.
سلام علیکم
You know that is not true. Nobody calls Shia Kafir because they accuse certain companions of having weak eman or committing sin.Plus brother Hadrami, I asked you about who wouldn't remain a Muslim through Quran and Sunnah, according to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Not what I or you think. I did mention Nabuwath but where did I say that you would be a kafir or would become one if you didn't accept Shia Imamath???
Brothers need to explain why they consider certain other Muslims as kafir and out of the fold of Islam.
It is not about what you say. Your opinion changes nothing in the Shia beliefs. It is about what Shia text and major early and contemporary scholars say.
What? Me derailing? Of course not, im just pointing out your double standard in complaining about others calling shias kuffar when it is your scholars who loves calling the best of Muslim as kuffar.
Cut the BS about half hearted iman etc, we know what your scholars think about abu bakar. According to them, he has no iman, not 1/2 or 1/4 and that other taqiyah term youve been using.
The reason why believing Abu Bakar RA a kafir makes a person a kafir is because that person denies what Allah clearly say about Muhajirin such as Abu Bakar RA, not because we believe he is infalible. Another reason is we know that according to your imam, Sunni = people who denied nubuwwah = kuffar.
So how on earth you are complaining about us when the one with extremist takfiri mind is your scholars???
Have you ever complained to your scholar and tell them to renounce their takfiri mind?
Brother Bolani, Salam Alaykum.
There are a number of Ex-Shias on this board. Brother Husayn, Efendi (owner of gift2shias.com) and myself. There are some threads about Ex-Shias on this forum:
The Rise of the Sunnis & EX-Shias [VIDEO]: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-rise-of-the-sunnais-ex-shias-%28video%29/
Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/
As for my story, well It's a bit long, maybe I write something about it one day, as for now here is ONE of MANY main reasons why I believe that Shiism is the religion of satan and the unholy progeny of satan (it's written by myself but from brother Ibn Al-Hindi's aka swords of sunnah's amazing blog) and not the religion and school of the Ahl Al-Bayt:
http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/from-whom-do-you-take-your-religion/
As for our families, well, it's kinda private question, but those who like can answer of course. May Allah bless you for leaving the religion of shirk for Islam, Tawhid and Sunnah.
As for schools of thought. These are Fiqhi schools, ever rotten Marja' is a fiqhi school (they differ on tons of issues, from najasat, to the ruling of the jumu3a prayer), so don't be bothered by the cheap shots of the Rawafid. What is important is that you are a Muslim now (whatever fiqh you follow) and not an Imamite Mushrik.
Then please provide me with those references and prove to me how would you become a kafir by accusing someone of becoming a kafir??? And also how would someone become a kafir because you believe and accuse them of it???
Calm down brother and relax. There is no need to get personal. It is just a general discussion. First you speak about takfeer, take a look at all the Muslim organisation/parties/groups who are involved in and carry out terrorist activities world wide, they all claim to be and no doubt are from the Ahle Sunnah.
Thirdly I don't want your opinion and I'm not interested in mine either, prove to me through Quran and Sunnah and absolutely clearly that you would become a kafir if you say this, do that or believe in this. It doesn't matter if it is the companions, wives or any other relative of the Prophet (pbuh), how would you become a kafir by not accepting and believing in them, in the manner you have put forward??!
Don't forget to put forward references for what Shia scholars say and the claims you have made. I will discuss them one by one.As a start, let's just use 1 reference so we don't go all over the place. You know al-Majlisi right? Just in case you don't, hes the greatest Iranian shia scholar whose works is respected by all Shia scholars to this day. Can I quote from one of his works to proof that shia is a takfiri sect?
Then please provide me with those references and prove to me how would you become a kafir by accusing someone of becoming a kafir??? And also how would someone become a kafir because you believe and accuse them of it???
Can you at least try to read what I post? It makes someone a kafir because those with such believe have gone against Allah who testify that Abu Bakar RA is not a kafir. Get it?Calm down brother and relax. There is no need to get personal. It is just a general discussion. First you speak about takfeer, take a look at all the Muslim organisation/parties/groups who are involved in and carry out terrorist activities world wide, they all claim to be and no doubt are from the Ahle Sunnah.
You'd probably too young to know where those terrorism ideas came from. It was pioneered by secular/marxist/shia organisations in the late 70s/early 80s & unfortunately some sunni groups now are embracing it without knowing that they are following what is originally shia/secularist diseases.Thirdly I don't want your opinion and I'm not interested in mine either, prove to me through Quran and Sunnah and absolutely clearly that you would become a kafir if you say this, do that or believe in this. It doesn't matter if it is the companions, wives or any other relative of the Prophet (pbuh), how would you become a kafir by not accepting and believing in them, in the manner you have put forward??!
Don't worry, i'll give one of your greatest scholar opinion who said all Sunni are disbeliever.Don't forget to put forward references for what Shia scholars say and the claims you have made. I will discuss them one by one.As a start, let's just use 1 reference so we don't go all over the place. You know al-Majlisi right? Just in case you don't, hes the greatest Iranian shia scholar whose works is respected by all Shia scholars to this day. Can I quote from one of his works to proof that shia is a takfiri sect?
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.
It must be understood that among SHIA, the confession/belief in the Imam is one of the principles of faith and the one who discards it will be, in the akhirat, with the kuffar and mushrik
In Kamaluddin with reliable chain of narrators that people asked Imam Ridha (AS): "If a man dies without knowing his imam has he died the death of jahiliyah? The Hazrat said: Yes, a man who doubts the Imamah of Imam or desist from him is a kafir and the one who denies the Imamah or shows hate towards Imam is a mushrik, that is, like an idol worshipper"
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.
Munafiq is worse than kafir. Its either you dont know much about your own scholar's belief or you just playing the taqiyah card. In this case, I believe youre a very passionate but extremely ignorant & uninformed Shia.
Let's open al-Majlisi, one of the greatest shia scholar from the what is now known as the great "Islamic" Republic of Iran. In his book Hayat al-Qulub Vol 3 Chapter "There is Imam in every age & his obedience is wajib" Part "It is mandatory to know the imam of the time"
"Allamah" Majlisi wroteQuoteIt must be understood that among SHIA, the confession/belief in the Imam is one of the principles of faith and the one who discards it will be, in the akhirat, with the kuffar and mushrik
Now, did Sunni believe in your hidden mahdi? No! So what does it make us?
Or what about this quote from that same chapterQuoteIn Kamaluddin with reliable chain of narrators that people asked Imam Ridha (AS): "If a man dies without knowing his imam has he died the death of jahiliyah? The Hazrat said: Yes, a man who doubts the Imamah of Imam or desist from him is a kafir and the one who denies the Imamah or shows hate towards Imam is a mushrik, that is, like an idol worshipper"
Sunni not just doubt your mahdi, we deny that hidden mahdi exist, so according to imam, Sunni are also mushrik.
That is just a drop of the ocean and you want to deny that shia is a takfiri sect? Instead of asking for proof & reference, why dont you just read your own books?
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.
Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.
| So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith??? |
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.
Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.
Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???
^Kids don't admit mistakes. You made a blunder and write and essay to cover it. Surely you are an ignorant kid, have a nice day. Also it's called Ex-Rafidi. Rafidah is a sect, you can't be an "Ex-Christianity" for example. Tse, tse, tse ... the level is so low here, where are the knowledgable Shias?
Don't interview me, who the heck are you anway? I've dozens of posts here where I express my belief, the rest is none of your business. The following made me laugh:
So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith???
What is "Thaqeya". It's called Taqiyyah and the only one who is hiding constantly is your 12th Imam, the useless coward.
Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???
This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.
Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.
I want to know what he really believes. That quote above is nothing compare to this one belowNow if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???
This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.
Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???
This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.
Thats it! No more replies to such ridiculous comments.
You can pick any Madhab you like, they're all the same.
Your gay relatives aside, do you want to remain upon this path that you are on? Or don't you see any problems at all with Tashayyu`?
Oh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p
How can your cousin call himself religious and practice sodomy, then tell you you're going to hell? Did he do a 'nikah' or no? This is too weird :o
Don't believe people's random stories online brother.
My dear brothers you mention and talk a lot about Tabarra and Cursing. Take a look at the following and lets here your thought, opinion and point of view about this.
Muawiyah Instituting The Curse Of Imam ‘Ali (as)
Muawiyah not only fought Imam ‘Ali, he cursed Imam ‘Ali as well. Furthermore, he did force/make everybody to curse ‘Ali (as). To prove it, we begin with
Sahih Muslim:
Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas: Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa’d, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of ‘Ali)?”Sa’d replied: "Don’t you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) ‘Ali? So I will never curse ‘Ali."
Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.
For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, p1284,
Tradition #5916
أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا ، فقال: مامنعك أن تسب أبا التراب ، فقال: أما ما ذكرت ثلاثا قالهن له رسول الله (ص) فلن أسبه
The above tradition, by the way, indicates that Muawiyah was surprised why Sa’d does not follow his order of cursing ‘Ali, like others do. This shows that cursing ‘Ali was a habit (Sunnah) for people at that time. Who made this Sunnah? Was it ‘Ali, or those who fought him? Now, who fought against ‘Ali? Wasn’t he Muawiyah (the beloved companion of Wahhabis)? So this implies that Muawiyah did innovate that habit (cursing ‘Ali as Sunnah).
Below is more references in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam ‘Ali (as), to prove that people were urged/forced to curse ‘Ali in public, otherwise they would face a costly sentence. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that:
The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa’d, and ordered him to curse ‘Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don’t want to curse ‘Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of ‘Ali).”Sahl said: "‘Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and ‘Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab.”
Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.
Here is the Arabic text of the above tradition given by Sahih Muslim:
استعمل على المدينة رجل من آل مروان ، قال فدعا سهل بن سعد فأمره أن يشتم عليا ، قال: فأبى سهل ، فقال له: أمّا إذ أبيت فقل: لعن الله أبا التراب. فقال سهل: ما كان لعليٍّ اسم أحب إليهِ من أبي التراب و إن كان ليفرح إذا دُعيَّ به.
Cursing Imam ‘Ali (as) was an order from the beginning of Muawiyah’s reign for 65 years. He was Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz (may Allah be easy with him) who canceled this order after more than half a century. Some historians even believe that the Umayyah descendants themselves killed (poisoned) Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz, because he changed their Sunnah, one of which was cursing ‘Ali.
(See the Sunni book entitled "History of the Saracens,”by Amir ‘Ali, Chapter X, pp 126-127).
One of the ugliest innovations that started during the reign of Muawiyah was that Muawiyah himself, and through his order to his Governors, they used to insult Imam ‘Ali (as) during the Sermons in the Mosques. This was even done on the pulpit of the mosque of the Prophet in Medina in front of the grave of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and his Progeny), so that even the dearest Companions of the Prophet (S), and Imam ‘Ali (as), his family and his near relatives used to hear these swears with their ears.
Sunni references:
- History of al-Tabari, v4, p188
- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p234; v4, p154
- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p259; v9, p80
On insulting ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and cursing him during the Umayah period starting in Muawiyah’s reign, it is reported that:
"‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) was cursed on the pulpits (manabir) of the east and west...", during the time of Muawiyah.
Sunni reference: Mu’jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, v5, p38
In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (S) wrote to Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His messenger on your minbar, and that is because you are cursing ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His messengerloved him.”But no one paid any attention to what she said.
Sunni reference: al-Aqd al-Fareed, v2, p300
"That it was in the days of Bani Umayyah, more than seventy thousand minbar (in mosques) upon which they cursed ‘Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, in some of what Muawiyah made a Sunnah for them."
Sunni references:
- Rabeea’ al-Abrar, al-Zamakhshari
- al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti
al-Shaikh Ahmad al-Hafdhi al-Shafi’i, composed 9 verses of poetry expanding on what al-Suyuti has reported in the previous quote, I translated the first three verses:
And Shaikh al-Suyuti told:
That it was what they made into a "Sunnah". Seventy thousand mibar plus ten from the top of which they cursed Haydara (‘Ali). And next to this the greatest (sins) look small, but blame ought to be directed.
Let us now see the opinion of the son of Yazid about his father and his grandfather, who was the witness from within the royal family! ...When (Yazid) offered the kingdom (throne) to his son, Muawiyah the second, in order that the flag of caliphate continues to wave in the house of Abi Sufyan!!
After his death, Muawiyah the second, gathered the people on a well known day, he stood in them preaching, he said:
"My grandfather Muawiyah stripped the command from those who deserved it, and from one who is more justified of it, for his relation to the Messenger of Allah and his being first in Islam, and that is ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib, he (Muawiyah) took over it by your help as you are fully aware."
"Then following it my father Yazid wore the command after him, and he did not deserve it. He quarreled with the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and by that he shortened his own life... He rode his whim and hope left him behind.”
Then he cried and continued: "Surely, the greatest problems of us is our knowledge of his bad behavior and his awful ending, and that he killed the progeny (Itrah) of the Messenger of Allah, and he permitted drinking alcohol, and he fought in the sanctuary of Mecca, and destroyed the Ka’ba.”
"And I am not the one who is dressing up for your command, nor the one to be responsible for your followers... You choose for yourselves..!!"
Sunni references:
- Khulafaa al-Rasool, by Khalid Muhammad Khalid, p531 (The above quote includes author’s punctuation.)
- Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, end of Ch. 11, pp 336
Muawiyah and Yazid murdering Imam al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali (as) by poison, reported by many, here are a few Sunni references:
1. Tathkarat al-Khawass, Sibt ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 191-194.
2. Ibn Abd al-Barr, in his "Seera"
3. al-Suddi
4. al-Sha’bi
5. Abu Nu’aym
Even though Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and Imam Shafi'i hated Abu Hanifa?
Although, as far as Madhahib go, the school of Abu Hanifa is probably the best as long as you stay away with the Salafi-infused modern interpretations (like from Dar'ul Ulum Deoband). Abu Hanifa was the most tolerant of all four and his authentic views are quite different from modern "Hanifi" scholars. He allowed beer, for example.
There are problems with tashayyu`, sure. But there are more problems with Sunniism, as far as I can see. I'd be happy to tell you in private all the issues I have with tashayyu`, but I don't want to post them publicly.
Yeah, we rawafid make up stories that slander our own families just so we can one up some anonymous screen-name online.
There are no authentic reports that Muawiyah (RA) advocated the cursing of Ali (RA),
and I doubt the reports suggesting Muawiyah (RA) poisioning Hassan (RA) are authentic either.
I've come across scholars mention he passed away due to poisioning and refused to disclose who the culprit was before his death.
And, I get Ali (RA) and Muawiyah (RA) certainly exchanged a few verbals, but the whole idea of Muawiyah allowing cursing of Ali (RA) is all fabrications is it not? All the sources he provided are baseless.
So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.Allahumma la`an saname Fars. O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei).
Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates. So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed. Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa.
You'd be surprised how often that happened.Reminds me of all the Sunni stories that the rawafid spit in their food, or something like that.
So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.Allahumma la`an saname Fars. O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei).
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates. So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed. Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa.
But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?You'd be surprised how often that happened.Reminds me of all the Sunni stories that the rawafid spit in their food, or something like that.
Allahumma la`an saname Fars. O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei).
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?
The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates. So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed. Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa.
But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?
Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.
I'm happy you're cursing Khomayni n all, but why do you want me to curse abu Hanifa? I have no issue with him and even if he made a mistake here or there I simply ask Allah to forgive him and raise the rank of all believers.
We Muslims aren't too fond of cursing as we heave mercy in our hearts.So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali? Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.
Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.
So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali? Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.
Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.
I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali? Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.
Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.
`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"
The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates. So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed. Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa.
But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?
I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.So why blindly follow the Sahabah and refuse to admit they made mistakes? `Umar himself admitted that he introduced "excellent" bidaa into Islam, and all bidaa is in the hell fire (Sunni hadeeth). I'm not saying `Umar is in hell (although I believe he is, that's a different discussion), but you must admit he made a mistake. You also must admit that `Aisha made a mistake when she went to war with Imam Ali. Same with Muawiyah. To blindly say that all the Sahabah were 100% righteous 100% of the time is just as ridiculous as blindly following a "righteous" scholar. This is one of the Sunni opinions that troubles me the most; blind adherence. I will Private Message you something, and I ask you not to post it or reveal it to anyone else. Please keep what I say to you in mind as I say the following: Just because someone is held in high regard does not mean they are 100% right, or that one must agree with them 100% of the time. Several times, people have posted opinions of certain Shia scholars and say that this is what all rawafid must believe. It is not the case. Even today, Shia scholars are at odds with each other. Same with Sunni scholars. Quoting the classics helps understand history, but it does not always point to what all people in a group believe.
Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.I agree. But some people made bigger mistakes than others.
`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"Please source.
So why blindly follow the Sahabah and refuse to admit they made mistakes? `Umar himself admitted that he introduced "excellent" bidaa into Islam, and all bidaa is in the hell fire (Sunni hadeeth). I'm not saying `Umar is in hell (although I believe he is, that's a different discussion), but you must admit he made a mistake. You also must admit that `Aisha made a mistake when she went to war with Imam Ali. Same with Muawiyah. To blindly say that all the Sahabah were 100% righteous 100% of the time is just as ridiculous as blindly following a "righteous" scholar. This is one of the Sunni opinions that troubles me the most; blind adherence. I will Private Message you something, and I ask you not to post it or reveal it to anyone else. Please keep what I say to you in mind as I say the following: Just because someone is held in high regard does not mean they are 100% right, or that one must agree with them 100% of the time. Several times, people have posted opinions of certain Shia scholars and say that this is what all rawafid must believe. It is not the case. Even today, Shia scholars are at odds with each other. Same with Sunni scholars. Quoting the classics helps understand history, but it does not always point to what all people in a group believe.
I agree. But some people made bigger mistakes than others.
Please source.
It's in several books such as al-Sunnah by `Abdullah and al-Sunnah by al-Khallal etc...
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.
Are they authentic? And can you prove it if you had to? (Not asking you to go through the authentication process, but just curious on how certain you are of it.)
So you admit that Umar innovated and that all innovations are in hell?
No one is putting it to one side for the sake of it, but as I said neither of those reports are authentic.
That's exactly what you haven't done. Put forward a list, but not stated or mentioned which and which are not authentic reports. I've read many articles and watched scholars refute the entire lot.
Booyakashah to Muawiyah (RA). He is my hero.
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.
They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".
Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.
They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".
Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.
Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided" ??? So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.
They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".
Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.
Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided"??? So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???
Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.
They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".
Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.
Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided"??? So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???
Actually, although it does seem to be the case that some Sunnis give the Sahaba (or certain individuals) a Demi-God type status, those who are educated enough give the Sahaba [ra] the place that they are due. The following narrations do show that the Sahaba did err at times:
1. Rabi'ah al-Aslami narrated: I used to serve the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) so he gave me a piece of land and he gave Abu Bakr a piece of land, then life and its pleasures came between us and we differed on a small part of land surrounding a palm tree, Abu Bakr may Allah be pleased with him said: "It is on my side of the land." and I said that it was on mine, so there was an argument between us and Abu Bakr told me a word that I hated to hear, then he regretted it and he told me: "O Rabi'ah, say to me what I said to you, as a Qasas." I said I wouldn't, Abu Bakr told me to do so otherwise he'd call the Prophet (SAWS), I insisted that I would not, so he refused that piece of land and he went to the Prophet (SAWS). I followed him and met some people from (the tribe of) Aslam along the way, they asked: "May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr, why would he call on the Prophet (SAWS) because of you if he was the one who said what he said to you?" I replied to them: "Do you know who this is!? This is Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, he is the second of the two (in the cave), he is the elder of the Muslims! So beware of letting him see you supporting me against him, then he would be angry and then the Prophet (SAWS) would come and be angry for his anger and then Allah would be angry for their anger and then Rabi'ah would perish!" They said: "What do you suggest we do?" I said: "Return." Then I continued to follow him alone until we reached the Prophet (SAWS), and he told him exactly what happened, so he (SAWS) raised his head and looked at me and said: "O Rabi'ah, what is between you and al-Siddeeq?" I said: "O Prophet of Allah, this and that happened, so he spoke a word I hated to hear, then told me to return the word as a Qasas and I refused." The Prophet (SAWS) then said: "Do not return the word, instead say: May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." So I said: "May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." Then Abu Bakr may Allah have mercy on him left with tears in his eyes.
2. 'Abdullah bin al-Zubair narrated: A caravan from Bani Tamim came to the Messenger of Allaah (SAWS) and Abu Bakr (ra) said to appoint as the Amir Qa’qaa’ bin Ma’bad and ‘Umar (ra) said to appoint as the Amir al-Aqra’ bin Haabis. Abu Bakr said ‘you always wanted to oppose me’ and ‘Umar said ‘I did not want to oppose you’ and they disputed until their voices raised. So Allah (swt) revealed: ‘O you who believe! Make not (a decision) in advance before Allaah and His Messenger, and fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing …’ until ‘And if they had had patience till you could come out to them, it would have been better for them. And Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Coming from a Shia background I know this is a widely held misconception, that Sunnis believe all Sahaba to be practically infallible, but Sahaba were human and made mistakes, but we should respect their status and their sacrifices for Allah (swt) and His Prophet (PBUH).
Brother, can you provide the sources for these narrations, please?
Brother, can you provide the sources for these narrations, please?
If I recorded them correctly then the first is al-Albani's al-Silsilah al-Sahiha 7/407 and the second is Sahih al-Bukhari #4367.
Just because a person says the shahada doesn't make them a Muslim. The Qadianis say shahada, love Hazrat Muhammad (saw), pray, ect, but are unanimously declared as kaafir by Sunnis and shias. Same thing with Quranists, agha khanis, and definetly some twelvers.
Your words,
"Why I left Shiasm (by Husayn. A Rafidi member from the old forum whom I debated myself for literally TEN years till he became Muslim!!!): http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-i-left-shiaism/"
So tell me how did this Rafidi member, from the old forum whom you debated for ten years yourself, become a Muslim??? How do you become a Muslim from a Rafidi??? What did he have to say or do??? Or what did you make him say or do??? How do you become a Muslim??? By saying Shahadathain, yes??? The Rafidi (Shia) already believes in and says the Shahadathain, so what does he further say or do to become a Muslim??? Well come on hot shot!
Actually all twelvers are muslim at least according to the majority of scholars in the world. Ever heard of the amman pact?
سلام علیک
For all the fellow ex-shias, I have been wondering.
How did your family/friends/community take it?
Are you the only ex-shia you know of?
Do you eat from shias (since they believe in kufr)?
Are you a specific madhab?
Currently I'm planning to tell my family I'm not Shia after I'm married. :P
Thanks for reading, Allah Hafiz
Are you also going to take the opinion of Ex Sunnis??? How they must feel??? I'm sure their feelings must also be brought in to consideration. Since they believe in Kufar??? Wow! A big statement but I'm sure it can't be backed by anything. So tell me what made you become an Ex Shia??? Congratulations on becoming a Sunni. Would you mind telling me which Sunni have you become and why??? They have four schools of thought so which one have you taken on and why??? I don't think I'm going to here from you now. If I do I'm sure it wont be positive but lets see.