Life after Shia questions

[Ameen]

Quote;

"There are no authentic reports that Muawiyah (RA) advocated the cursing of Ali (RA), and I doubt the reports suggesting Muawiyah (RA) poisioning Hassan (RA) are authentic either."

Turning something down and rejecting it point blank and that's it, is very easy and simple brother. Putting forward an explanation with your statement and discussing the matter with references is another thing. Ameer Muavia (ra) fought 72 battles, not one but 72 with the fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims. He must have done all this out of love for Hazrath Ali (as). You don't go to battle as friends but as enemies. But going to war??? You go to war as bitter enemies and rivals. It looks like sense and logic has gone A.W.O.L.

[Optimus Prime]

No one is putting it to one side for the sake of it, but as I said neither of those reports are authentic.

That's exactly what you haven't done. Put forward a list, but not stated or mentioned which and which are not authentic reports. I've read many articles and watched scholars refute the entire lot.

Booyakashah to Muawiyah (RA). He is my hero.

[Taha]

So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.

Allahumma la`an saname Fars.  O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei). 
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?

Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.

The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?

You'd be surprised how often that happened.

Reminds me of all the Sunni stories that the rawafid spit in their food, or something like that.

[Ebn Hussein]

So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.

Allahumma la`an saname Fars.  O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei). 
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?

Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.

The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?

You'd be surprised how often that happened.

Reminds me of all the Sunni stories that the rawafid spit in their food, or something like that.

Stories? You mean facts caught on tape:

I guess that's a unicorn wahhabi dressed in a filthy Rafidi robe, huh?

[Hani]

Mr. Taha

Allahumma la`an saname Fars.  O Allah, curse the two idols of Persia (Khomeini Khamenei). 
Now, do you have the courage to curse one of your four?

I'm happy you're cursing Khomayni n all, but why do you want me to curse abu Hanifa? I have no issue with him and even if he made a mistake here or there I simply ask Allah to forgive him and raise the rank of all believers.


We Muslims aren't too fond of cursing as we heave mercy in our hearts.

The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?

It's not about the forum, it's about who answers you on that forum. Try to find a reliable authority in Hanafi Fiqh and forward that question to him.

[Taha]

I'm happy you're cursing Khomayni n all, but why do you want me to curse abu Hanifa? I have no issue with him and even if he made a mistake here or there I simply ask Allah to forgive him and raise the rank of all believers.

Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.

We Muslims aren't too fond of cursing as we heave mercy in our hearts.

So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali?  Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.

[Hani]

Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.

I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.

So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali?  Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.

Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.


`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"

[Optimus Prime]

Imam Shafi'i, Malik ibn Anas, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal had a huge problem with him.

I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.

So Muaeuyah (and all Umayyads except for Umar ibn Abdul Aziz) isn't /aren't Muslims since they cursed Imam Ali?  Glad you agree. Ebn Hussein seems fond of cursing.

Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.


`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"

Brother Hani, do you have a source for this narration or quote?

[Optimus Prime]

The details are, there is a hadeeth where the Holy Prophet (sawa) explains that Khamr is from grapes or dates.  So Abu Hanifa takes it to mean that only wine from grapes or dates is forbidden, alcohol made from other substances such as hops, grain, barley, etc. is allowed.  Ergo, beer is halal according to Abu Hanifa. 


But sure, what's a Hanafi forum I can ask provocative questions to and get actual answers in response?

www.sunniforum.com

Taha, I've invited a scholar who's studied, teaches and practices the Hanafi madhab. He'll address any concerns or questions you have.

[Taha]

I follow Shafi`i's Fiqhi rulings but I'm not al-Shafi`i, he's not my prophet nor would I follow anything he does if I am not convinced it is correct.

So why blindly follow the Sahabah and refuse to admit they made mistakes?  `Umar himself admitted that he introduced "excellent" bidaa into Islam, and all bidaa is in the hell fire (Sunni hadeeth).  I'm not saying `Umar is in hell (although I believe he is, that's a different discussion), but you must admit he made a mistake.  You also must admit that `Aisha made a mistake when she went to war with Imam Ali.  Same with Muawiyah.  To blindly say that all the Sahabah were 100% righteous 100% of the time is just as ridiculous as blindly following a "righteous" scholar.  This is one of the Sunni opinions that troubles me the most; blind adherence.  I will Private Message you something, and I ask you not to post it or reveal it to anyone else.  Please keep what I say to you in mind as I say the following: Just because someone is held in high regard does not mean they are 100% right, or that one must agree with them 100% of the time.  Several times, people have posted opinions of certain Shia scholars and say that this is what all rawafid must believe.  It is not the case.  Even today, Shia scholars are at odds with each other.  Same with Sunni scholars.  Quoting the classics helps understand history, but it does not always point to what all people in a group believe. 

Muslims at the time of Fitnah committed many mistakes that the Prophet (saw) warned us of, our duty today as intelligent human beings is to learn from their mistakes not repeat them.

I agree.  But some people made bigger mistakes than others.

`Ali himself regretted everything he did in those days as is authentically attributed to him: "O Hasan, your father wishes he died twenty years ago!"

Please source.

[Husayn]

Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

[Hani]

So why blindly follow the Sahabah and refuse to admit they made mistakes?  `Umar himself admitted that he introduced "excellent" bidaa into Islam, and all bidaa is in the hell fire (Sunni hadeeth).  I'm not saying `Umar is in hell (although I believe he is, that's a different discussion), but you must admit he made a mistake.  You also must admit that `Aisha made a mistake when she went to war with Imam Ali.  Same with Muawiyah.  To blindly say that all the Sahabah were 100% righteous 100% of the time is just as ridiculous as blindly following a "righteous" scholar.  This is one of the Sunni opinions that troubles me the most; blind adherence.  I will Private Message you something, and I ask you not to post it or reveal it to anyone else.  Please keep what I say to you in mind as I say the following: Just because someone is held in high regard does not mean they are 100% right, or that one must agree with them 100% of the time.  Several times, people have posted opinions of certain Shia scholars and say that this is what all rawafid must believe.  It is not the case.  Even today, Shia scholars are at odds with each other.  Same with Sunni scholars.  Quoting the classics helps understand history, but it does not always point to what all people in a group believe. 

Aside from all that useless detail above, no Sunni believes the Sahabah were 100% correct on everything (including `Ali). What does this have to do with me cursing abu Hanifa?

I agree.  But some people made bigger mistakes than others.

Obviously.

Please source.

It's in several books such as al-Sunnah by `Abdullah and al-Sunnah by al-Khallal etc...

[Taha]

It's in several books such as al-Sunnah by `Abdullah and al-Sunnah by al-Khallal etc...

Are they authentic?  And can you prove it if you had to?  (Not asking you to go through the authentication process, but just curious on how certain you are of it.)

Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

So you admit that Umar innovated and that all innovations are in hell?

[Hani]

Are they authentic?  And can you prove it if you had to?  (Not asking you to go through the authentication process, but just curious on how certain you are of it.)

Yes I can.

So you admit that Umar innovated and that all innovations are in hell?

This is a linguistic innovation not an innovation in religion, meaning `Umar never innovated anything he just organized the people behind one Imam instead of leaving them disorganized in groups.


The people would come to the mosques and each group would pray on their own, he simply united them as they used to do in Rasul-Allah's (saw) time, this is not an innovation in religion.

[Ameen]

No one is putting it to one side for the sake of it, but as I said neither of those reports are authentic.

That's exactly what you haven't done. Put forward a list, but not stated or mentioned which and which are not authentic reports. I've read many articles and watched scholars refute the entire lot.

Booyakashah to Muawiyah (RA). He is my hero.

Well it's obvious they're going to refute the entire lot. It doesn't matter which party you belong to, what suits your belief, faith, thought, opinion and point of view you will automatically accept and what doesn't you will automatically reject.

As far as I am concerned, I go by reality and facts. Ameer Muavia (ra) as a companion and brother in law of the Prophet (pbuh) is one thing but being a rebel and outlaw is another. Going against the fourth rightly guided Khalif of the Muslims and using means of violence and threatening behaviour to have your demands met, is what the definition of a terrorist is and what terrorism is all about.

Who is right is right and who is wrong is wrong. It's all about double standards for some!

[Ameen]

Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided" So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???

[Hani]

Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided" So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???

Khulafa' Rashideen Mahdiyeen is how Rasul-Allah (saw) referred to those who shall succeed him in leadership, he called them "rightly guided" because they ruled religiously and were faithful to his teachings.


Haq Char Yaar is some Pakistani saying I think, it means the four Caliphs were good friends and not enemies as Shia claim.


As for `Adalat al-Sahabah this is a deep topic that you can discuss with Farid or the scholars of Hadith because this mainly is related to their transmission of Hadith.


As for the Sahabah are like the stars, this is a fabricated narration according to the scholars of Hadith, it spread between laypeople just like any rumors spread between laypeople.

[Abu Zayd]

Ahlul Sunnah freely admit that the Sahabah made mistakes - they are recorded in ahadith and tareeqh.

They do not claim they were "100% righteous 100% of the time".

Please educate yourself, you hilarious child.

Education is very important. Both need to educate themselves and learn about the other. So what does rightly guided mean then??? Rightly guided Khalifs, Haq char Yaar??? Then you have the statement about the Sahaba,
"Kullohum Udool", what is this all about??? Then you have, "all the Sahaba are like the stars, it doesn't matter who you follow, you are guided" So if they weren't 100% right then, where did they go wrong and how???

Actually, although it does seem to be the case that some Sunnis give the Sahaba (or certain individuals) a Demi-God type status, those who are educated enough give the Sahaba [ra] the place that they are due.  The following narrations do show that the Sahaba did err at times:

1.  Rabi'ah al-Aslami narrated: I used to serve the Messenger of Allah (SAWS) so he gave me a piece of land and he gave Abu Bakr a piece of land, then life and its pleasures came between us and we differed on a small part of land surrounding a palm tree, Abu Bakr may Allah be pleased with him said: "It is on my side of the land." and I said that it was on mine, so there was an argument between us and Abu Bakr told me a word that I hated to hear, then he regretted it and he told me: "O Rabi'ah, say to me what I said to you, as a Qasas." I said I wouldn't, Abu Bakr told me to do so otherwise he'd call the Prophet (SAWS), I insisted that I would not, so he refused that piece of land and he went to the Prophet (SAWS). I followed him and met some people from (the tribe of) Aslam along the way, they asked: "May Allah have mercy on Abu Bakr, why would he call on the Prophet (SAWS) because of you if he was the one who said what he said to you?" I replied to them: "Do you know who this is!? This is Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, he is the second of the two (in the cave), he is the elder of the Muslims! So beware of letting him see you supporting me against him, then he would be angry and then the Prophet (SAWS) would come and be angry for his anger and then Allah would be angry for their anger and then Rabi'ah would perish!" They said: "What do you suggest we do?" I said: "Return." Then I continued to follow him alone until we reached the Prophet (SAWS), and he told him exactly what happened, so he (SAWS) raised his head and looked at me and said: "O Rabi'ah, what is between you and al-Siddeeq?" I said: "O Prophet of Allah, this and that happened, so he spoke a word I hated to hear, then told me to return the word as a Qasas and I refused." The Prophet (SAWS) then said: "Do not return the word, instead say: May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." So I said: "May Allah forgive you O Abu Bakr." Then Abu Bakr may Allah have mercy on him left with tears in his eyes.

2.  'Abdullah bin al-Zubair narrated: A caravan from Bani Tamim came to the Messenger of Allaah (SAWS) and Abu Bakr (ra) said to appoint as the Amir Qa’qaa’ bin Ma’bad and ‘Umar (ra) said to appoint as the Amir al-Aqra’ bin Haabis. Abu Bakr said ‘you always wanted to oppose me’ and ‘Umar said ‘I did not want to oppose you’ and they disputed until their voices raised. So Allah (swt) revealed: ‘O you who believe! Make not (a decision) in advance before Allaah and His Messenger, and fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing …’ until ‘And if they had had patience till you could come out to them, it would have been better for them. And Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Coming from a Shia background I know this is a widely held misconception, that Sunnis believe all Sahaba to be practically infallible, but Sahaba were human and made mistakes, but we should respect their status and their sacrifices for Allah (swt) and His Prophet (PBUH).

[Hani]

Brother abu Zayd you should also write "ex-Shia" on your profile description : p

[Abu Zayd]

Perhaps. Those who need to know now all know, and those who couldn't care less will continue to feel that way.