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Mut'ah and prostitution

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Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Mut'ah and prostitution
« on: January 19, 2018, 06:36:28 PM »
A lot of our opponents claim mut'ah resembles prostitution. Of course this is nonsensical, because the Prophet (saww) would not allow something that is akin to prostitution or zina for even a moment in his life, and some Sunni Shaykhs (including Salafis) have criticised those who liken between the two.

However, what I found interesting is that it seems some Sunnis picture mut'ah like: "women being used by men for a temporary amount of time, then thrown away".

I have seen Shi'a reply to this assertion by using the "marriage with intention of divorce" arguement, but I believe there is something else which is actually agreed upon by all madhahib which is also similar to mut'ah.

It is the issue of: female slavery

Tell me what is the difference between marrying women for a temporary period for the sake of pleasure, where consent from both parties is necessary for the marriage to go through -

AND

buying them, having fun with them, then selling them after the fun is over? In fact, (sidenote) Westerners would argue the second version is worse and more akin to prostitution or even worse than it.

So please, tell me your reasoning as to why there is a moral difference between the two.

NOTE: This thread is for those who liken mut'ah to prostitution, not for those who are consistent and simply say it is haram because of proof from hadiths.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Rationalist

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2018, 11:50:51 PM »
I'm still having trouble finding Hadith where the Imams in the 12er Shia say its a conditional marriage.
Also is it really a Sunnah or does it fall into the category of mubah.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2018, 05:16:56 AM »
I'm still having trouble finding Hadith where the Imams in the 12er Shia say its a conditional marriage.
Also is it really a Sunnah or does it fall into the category of mubah.

It is a Sunnah but I do not know what that has to do with my thread bro.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Rationalist

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2018, 08:53:26 AM »
It is a Sunnah but I do not know what that has to do with my thread bro.

That's the reason its called prostitution. You call it sunnah.
So in another words if you are attracted to a women for her appearance and not control yourself and do muta, you get rewarded for it.

As for marriage with divorce, that's not a sunnah marriage.
As for slavery, it has to do with ownership.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2018, 01:08:41 PM »
That's the reason its called prostitution. You call it sunnah.
So in another words if you are attracted to a women for her appearance and not control yourself and do muta, you get rewarded for it.

As for marriage with divorce, that's not a sunnah marriage.
As for slavery, it has to do with ownership.

You realise I could do that with "slavery" too? I could buy a woman because I'm attracted to her, and when I lose my attraction to her I can just sell her?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Rationalist

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2018, 11:20:22 PM »
Yes, and this happened in history too. However, again it doesn't fall in the Sunnah category where when you find a women attractive, you are supposed to loose control. The Quran tells us to lower our gaze.


So, yes one can abuse Muta, slavery, marriage, but the minute you call it sunnah, that's when the problem arises.

GreatChineseFall

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2018, 03:08:58 PM »
Quote
Tell me what is the difference between marrying women for a temporary period for the sake of pleasure, where consent from both parties is necessary for the marriage to go through -

AND

buying them, having fun with them, then selling them after the fun is over? In fact, (sidenote) Westerners would argue the second version is worse and more akin to prostitution or even worse than it.

One difference is that possible pregnancy prevents the owner from selling. A slave girl who is pregnant or has given birth can not be sold anymore

GreatChineseFall

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2018, 03:12:28 PM »
Another difference is that for as long as a person owns a slave he must attend to his basic needs:
Quote
It was narrated that Abu Dhar said:
"The Messenger of Allah said: '(Slaves are) your brothers whom Allah has put under your control, so feed them with the same food that you eat, clothe them with the same clothes you wear, and do not burden them with so much that htey are overwhelmed; if you do burden them, then help them."
In mut'ah marriage, the wife is not entitled to anything of maintenance according to Shi'i scholars

Hani

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2018, 02:15:54 AM »
You realise I could do that with "slavery" too? I could buy a woman because I'm attracted to her, and when I lose my attraction to her I can just sell her?

You could also marry a woman when attracted and then divorce when not attracted. The difference would be what type of man you are and how much respect you have for women and their feelings and best interest.

If you want to screw a woman over, there's a million ways to do it. That won't be manliness or chivalry though, it'll be lewdness and selfish carnal lust.

As for slavery, it was born dead in Islam. The name itself was changed from slavery to Muwalat, which is a different type of relationship, then they were advised to set them free whenever they could and reap the reward.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

GreatChineseFall

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2018, 06:13:18 PM »
Another difference is that you will have to wait at least a month before you can do anything. You have to make sure she is not pregnant and the only way to do that is to wait after buying. During that time, as was said before, she is entitled to maintenance.

Another difference is that you buy prior to knowing if she will consent to intercourse. Even though obedience in general is required so also in this regard, if she really doesn't want to, it will not happen as you can't force yourself upon her and rape is forbidden.

Possibly one of the most important differences is that as a master of a slave, the slave is under your care and you are his guardian. This means you have to consider what is in their interest just like a child for example. If you don't want this to happen to your daughter, you can't do it to your slave. I am not sure in the case of mut'ah whether or not the husband becomes the guardian. I guess not because the consent of her guardian before marriage is not required(for non-virgins) and it would be weird if you can simply take over gaurdianship of a girl without the current guardian consenting or even knowing about it, but maybe you can shed some light on this. If not, then her interests are taken care of and all you should care about is her consent or willingness.

All in all, I doubt you can even do that and if you can there are many differences. Ironically we see that these differences make it such that even a slave girl is better off in many ways compared to a woman in a mut'ah marriage.

Rationalist

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2018, 05:39:56 AM »
Is muta is a sunnah why did this 12er Shia react this way?


Hadrami

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2018, 06:31:35 AM »
You realise I could do that with "slavery" too? I could buy a woman because I'm attracted to her, and when I lose my attraction to her I can just sell her?
No sunni scholar ever encourage buying slave or that you will be in jannah for doing so. On the other hand, emancipating slaves are recommended act. As usual, failed comparison

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2018, 11:41:54 AM »
Once again, a failiure in replying and a bunch of attempts to bounce around the question. Do not tell me whether it is sunnah or not, or whether it is mustahab or not. This wasn't my question.

My question is what is the difference in essence (so why is why considered prostitution and the other isn't). Not which one gives you more thawab. Typical of the people here to deviate the topic.

Let me be more specific; why is it not prostitution if Zayd goes to the markets, finds a woman, has fun with her, then sells her off later on? Answer this question please specifically and don't dance around like chicken.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2018, 12:17:39 PM »
Once again, a failiure in replying and a bunch of attempts to bounce around the question. Do not tell me whether it is sunnah or not, or whether it is mustahab or not. This wasn't my question.

My question is what is the difference in essence (so why is why considered prostitution and the other isn't). Not which one gives you more thawab. Typical of the people here to deviate the topic.

Let me be more specific; why is it not prostitution if Zayd goes to the markets, finds a woman, has fun with her, then sells her off later on? Answer this question please specifically and don't dance around like chicken.

I guess qiyas has been prohibited by your Imam isn't it? So why you make it now.

We call Mutah zinah because our salaf called it. Like Jafar as-sadiq, etc. Did they say sex with Slave is Zinah ?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2018, 02:20:57 PM »
I guess qiyas has been prohibited by your Imam isn't it? So why you make it now.

We call Mutah zinah because our salaf called it. Like Jafar as-sadiq, etc. Did they say sex with Slave is Zinah ?

I guess you didn't read the O.P my friend. I'm not here to try to prove mut'ah is halal by using slavery as proof, which would be qiyas. I'm asking why one is called prostitution while the other isn't in light of morality. If you read my O.P, you will realise that.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hadrami

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 02:22:10 PM »
Let me be more specific; why is it not prostitution if Zayd goes to the markets, finds a woman, has fun with her, then sells her off later on? Answer this question please specifically and don't dance around like chicken.
It is like prostitution, paying for sex, but
which sunni ever recommend such an act is so virtuous that if zayd does that will be among the people of jannah? Only shia scholars will do that. Again your comparison is a BIG fail
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 02:23:16 PM by Hadrami »

Hadrami

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 02:25:30 PM »
please, dont be such a chicken. Is there any sunni scholars telling his follower "buy a slave and have sex with her so you will join the people of jannah". Please find just one 😂

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 02:32:53 PM »
It is like prostitution, paying for sex, but
which sunni ever recommend such an act is so virtuous that if zayd does that will be among the people of jannah? Only shia scholars will do that. Again your comparison is a BIG fail

Masha Allah, so your saying something that is "like prostitution" is halal in Islam.

Whether it is recommended or not it does not matter as it is halal.

"BIG FAIL"
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 05:40:43 PM »
I guess you didn't read the O.P my friend. I'm not here to try to prove mut'ah is halal by using slavery as proof, which would be qiyas. I'm asking why one is called prostitution while the other isn't in light of morality. If you read my O.P, you will realise that.

You have misunderstood my argument. What I meant is that, you are making qiyas over the Sunni usage of term Zinah for Mutah with sex with a slave-girl. We cannot use qiyas in terming the later as Zinah.

We do it because we have evidence from Salaf who termed Mutah likewise.

As for making qiyas, then it reminds me of a story where a Hindu guy approached a Muslim scholar and asked him that why is the meat of pork prohibited but the meat of sheep allowed in Islam ? Both are meat. The scholar was smart, he said can you marry a woman ? The guy replied yes, he said can you marry your mother and sister, even though both are women ? The guy understood that he was applying improper qiyas, and he left.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mut'ah and prostitution
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 08:19:41 PM »
You have misunderstood my argument. What I meant is that, you are making qiyas over the Sunni usage of term Zinah for Mutah with sex with a slave-girl. We cannot use qiyas in terming the later as Zinah.

We do it because we have evidence from Salaf who termed Mutah likewise.

As for making qiyas, then it reminds me of a story where a Hindu guy approached a Muslim scholar and asked him that why is the meat of pork prohibited but the meat of sheep allowed in Islam ? Both are meat. The scholar was smart, he said can you marry a woman ? The guy replied yes, he said can you marry your mother and sister, even though both are women ? The guy understood that he was applying improper qiyas, and he left.

But what is the difference - forgetting religious edicts on it from scripture or otherwise - in performing mut'ah or buying a slave?

I'm speaking from the ethical and practical view without referring to hadith or religious proof.

After we get this solved, we can then talk about whether it can be called zina from within intra-Islamic discussion.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

 

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