Permissible for a mature man to drink the milk of a woman he wants to be Mahram

[whoaretheshia]

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Farid , i was about to do a lengthy investigation on the following tradition, however upon closer examination there may not be a need to.

The first narration is from Musnad Ali bin Al-Ja’ad #152:

أنا شعبة ، عن الحكم قال : سمعت قيس بن أبي حازم ، وأبا الشعثاء ، عن عائشة قالت :  يحرم من الرضاع ما أنبت اللحم والدم

Shu’ba told us, from Al-Hakam: I heard Qais bin Abi Haazim and Aba Al-Sha’thaa’, from A’isha (ra) say, “Only what causes the growth of the flesh and blood is what causes a foster-relationship through breastfeeding.”
This is a clear narration that A’isha (ra) does not believe that breastfeeding adults causes a foster-relationship with them.

Dear brother are you aware that our debate is weaning after two years? This is not a clear narration at all, because breastfeeding can make a two year old grow rapidly. It can make a ten year old grow. It can even make a Baligh boy grow upon drinking the milk during puberty. This does not prove that you can not give milk to an individual who has reached puberty. This was the massive flaw here. How can this be used for evidence? 

What Aisha may mean is that the breastmilk should not be spat out by the child, but he needs to take it in and swallow it, so that he digests it and it goes into his make up:

Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 3173 Narrated by Umm Salamah
Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "The only suckling which makes marriage unlawful is that which is taken from the breast and enters the bowels, and is taken before the time of weaning."

Muwatta Malik: Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "Suckling, however little or much when it is in the first two years, makes haram. As for what is after the first two years, little or much, it does not make anything haram. It is like food."

Al-Muwatta Hadith Hadith 30.14
Yahya related from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that Abdullah ibn Masud said, "There is only kinship by suckling in the first two years."

"Breastfeeding a grown-up has no effect, because the breastfeeding which has an effect (of creating the relationship of mahram) is that which consists of five feedings or more within the first two years, before weaning. On this basis, if it happened that someone breastfed from his wife or drank her milk, he does not become her son. Fataawa Islamiyah, 3/338.

[whoaretheshia]

Summary,

1. The rebuttal you wrote, with respect dear brother was weak. It is against the view of the majority of Sunni Ulema who believe Aisha permitted breastfeeding after the two year period, but erred.

2. You weakened a hadith in Musnad Ahmad , but you never answered my post (repeatedly asked) about why you had weakened a narrator who was accepted by the majority of scholars in Hadith, and only really weakened by ibn Hiban and others who do not have the same weighting as the others? For this reasons many scholars have graded the hadith in Musnad as 'Saheeh'

3. Your first tradition about breastfeeding to make Mahram being only what which causes growth of flesh and bones is a weak argument, and as been addressed in the post above. This means it is of no evidence.

4. A number of major Sunni Ulema, such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Qayim, Shawkani, and ibn Hazm (amongst others) believed that a grown man who was suckled could be made Mahram.

5. Your remaining tradition will be addressed, but i am confident when i analyse the chains and examine the content more closely that will also fall - or at least not be sufficient evidence.

[whoaretheshia]

Brother Farid i would appreciate if you could address my key points, or even better, admit that the position held by TSN and youpuncturedtheark are weak. I would respect you for that. I really do not feel going against most of your own Ulema , grading a tradition as weak when it can not be graded as such in any case , and then presenting traditions which do not prove your claim constitutes to a refutation.

[whoaretheshia]

No responses?

[whoaretheshia]

Brother Farid,

I see you are creating new threads , but still no response to some very basic questions? With due respect, i am the only regular Shia Poster in direct contact with you and Hani, i would have thought basic points i have raised here would be addressed?

Furthermore, apart from a comment that you would reject as being of the Ashari/Maturidi made by Hani, no-one has seriously made any reply to the Allah/Two feet/ Kursiy thread.

[Farid]

I see you are creating new threads , but still no response to some very basic questions?

Brother, both of us have the right to not answer questions when asked. I cannot force you to participate in my threads either.

[whoaretheshia]

Brother, both of us have the right to not answer questions when asked. I cannot force you to participate in my threads either.

Brother Farid,

You entered this thread and posting your refutation article, or one maybe written by Hani. I refuted it, and did the following:

1. Demonstrated your weakening of the tradition in Musnad Ahmad was not based on any proper Rijal standards, and asked you to justify how you weakened it. There has been no reply.

2. I have proven that the tradition you quoted regarding Umul Mumineen Aisha about growth of flesh is wholly irrelevant, and i have demonstrated at the top of this page why.

3. Once more, i have also verified and relayed to you that the vast majority of your scholars would disagree with your view. Some of them include men who even believed it was permissible to do what Aisha permitted, such as: Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Qayyim, Shawkani, Ibn Hazm and others.

4. The article by all objective accounts has almost no leg to stand on. We have to be objective. You would have come across far stronger if you had been intellectually honest brother, with all due respect, and just admitted she erred in her Ijtihad rather than the Jarh and T'adil we see erroneously used.

[fgss]

I see you are creating new threads , but still no response to some very basic questions?

This is in fact what you yourself are doing. You are creating a new thread almost everyday but not answering your very first thread.

It also seems like you are only interested in discussing ahlul sunnah ahadith and concepts instead of your own.

Can you tell us whats the ruling on this same issue from your own sources or marjas?
 

[whoaretheshia]

I feel if someone post a refutation article they or their colleague wrote, to refute what i have said, it is only fair they address my response to that refutation.

[fgss]

What is shia marjas ruling on this?