Praying with Shia

[Bolani Muslim]

Salaam guys, at times I'm forced to pray with the Shia (whether in 'jamaat' or furada), and at times I don't know whether doing certain actions breaks my Salah, such as:

• Doing qunoot in the 2nd rakaat
• Not turning head to sides completely for salaams
• Praying on Turbah/Mohr/Sajdagah. I heard from some people that since you don't touch the floor, that it invalidates your Salaah

Some non-Shia related questions are:

• I've been hearing some people saying that 'laymen don't have madhabs' and that we should follow our local Sheikhs. Some of my local Imams aren't a Hanafi, does that mean I shouldn't ask them for advice?
• Is mixing between madhabs a little allowed? The people at the local masjid follow a combination of Hanafi and Shaafi madhabs.

Thanks,

If another section is made for 'Life after Shia' then move it their please

[Khaled]

Salaam guys, at times I'm forced to pray with the Shia (whether in 'jamaat' or furada), and at times I don't know whether doing certain actions breaks my Salah, such as:

• Doing qunoot in the 2nd rakaat
• Not turning head to sides completely for salaams
• Praying on Turbah/Mohr/Sajdagah. I heard from some people that since you don't touch the floor, that it invalidates your Salaah

Are you asking about Qunoot in the second rak'ah of fajr?  As a Hanbali we follow that it is a bid'ah to always do it, therefore, whenever I'm in a situation where the Imam does it, as the Imam at my local masjid does it quite often, I just stand there and don't do anything.  Here are two fatwas from a Hanbali/Salafi perspective on the issue: https://islamqa.info/en/20031 http://islamqa.info/en/59925

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said concerning some matters of ijtihaad in which the scholars differed, such as Qunoot in Fajr and Witr:

The scholars are agreed that if a person does both, his worship is valid and there is no sin on him, but they disputed [?] concerning which is better and what the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to do. With regard to the issue of reciting Qunoot in Fajr and Witr, the issue of whether the Basmalah should be spoken out loud, and the issue of the words used to seek refuge with Allaah and so on ... They are agreed that if a person says the Basmalah out loud, his prayer is valid, and if a person says it silently his prayer is also valid; and that if a person recites Qunoot in Fajr his prayer is valid and if he does not recite it his prayer is valid, and the same applies to Witr.

As a conclusion, it shouldn't have any effect on your Salah no matter which opinion you follow.

As far as not turning your head for Salams, then this is a Sunnah and it is not a Pillar, Obligation or Condition of Salat.  Therefore your prayer would be valid according to all four madhhabs.  You need to just make the salam, but if you do it without turning your head then there is no harm.

How can praying on a turbah invalidate your Salat?  You pray on prayer mats don't you?  It's in the Shi'i madhhab that not praying on "earth" is considered invalid, and that's why they pray on it in the first place.

Some non-Shia related questions are:

• I've been hearing some people saying that 'laymen don't have madhabs' and that we should follow our local Sheikhs. Some of my local Imams aren't a Hanafi, does that mean I shouldn't ask them for advice?
• Is mixing between madhabs a little allowed? The people at the local masjid follow a combination of Hanafi and Shaafi madhabs.

The issue of madhhabs has been somewhat muddled because historically, madhhabs tended to be local.  I.e., if you live in India, the mashayikh are likely to be Hanafi, therefore, by default you would be a Hanafi.  In our modern times, especially in the west, maintaining this is practically impossible since most masaajid are like what you mentioned; a mixture of Hanafis and Shafi'ees with a few Hanbalis running around (and maybe Malikis depending on your locale).  Therefore, you can't possibly stick with one madhhab because it maybe that the Hanafi in your area is not that strong in certain issues (maybe marriage for example), so how can you follow him if there is someone more qualified?

As far as the issue of the layman has no madhhab, this is actually the majority opinion believe it or not as the layman by definition can't understand a madhhab, or else he is a student of knowledge.  If we start saying layman must follow a madhhab, then we will go back to the days of different madhhabs praying different salawat in the same masjid, turning a school of thought into a sect.

والله أعلم

[Bolani Muslim]

Are you asking about Qunoot in the second rak'ah of fajr?

No, I mean the Qunoot Shias do in the 2nd rakaat before rukoo. I'm still a minor and have to go to the local ImamBara and pray with Shias

As far as not turning your head for Salams, then this is a Sunnah and it is not a Pillar, Obligation or Condition of Salat.  Therefore your prayer would be valid according to all four madhhabs.  You need to just make the salam, but if you do it without turning your head then there is no harm.

I thought it was farz . Thanks Akhi!

How can praying on a turbah invalidate your Salat?  You pray on prayer mats don't you?  It's in the Shi'i madhhab that not praying on "earth" is considered invalid, and that's why they pray on it in the first place.

Ya, but when I'm home or at the Shia temple I have to pray on turbah, though I don't think it should be a big deal.

As far as the issue of the layman has no madhhab, this is actually the majority opinion believe it or not as the layman by definition can't understand a madhhab, or else he is a student of knowledge.  If we start saying layman must follow a madhhab, then we will go back to the days of different madhhabs praying different salawat in the same masjid, turning a school of thought into a sect.

والله أعلم

Interesting, as I got the impression from Sunniforum that going between madhabs is haraam. Theoretically, would it be haraam if I took the easiest opinions? What if my local sheikh gives me an opinion which I find out later is weak (happened to me)? Thanks

[Furkan]

Sticking to one madhab is the best and also recomended by salafi shuyookh.

[Bolani Muslim]

Sticking to one madhab is the best and also recomended by salafi shuyookh.

Yes, but in most of America, we're not blessed with a great number of Scholars like Europe. Gotta take from who I can get :/

[Furkan]

Maybe you can adapt the local madhab, or when asking you can ask specifically the ruling within your madhab. That way the shafi imam might give the hanafi ruling for example (in case he knows it).

[Khaled]

No, I mean the Qunoot Shias do in the 2nd rakaat before rukoo. I'm still a minor and have to go to the local ImamBara and pray with Shias

Can you explain how they do it?  Is just a du'aa like the one done by the mainstream Muslims?

I thought it was farz . Thanks Akhi!

The tasleem (saying as-Salaam alykum) is a pillar of prayer in the Hanbali madhhab, meaning if you don't do it then your prayer is invalid and you can't even do the Sajdah of Forgetfulness for it.  So keep in mind that the turning of the head is sunnah, and the saying of "as-salamu alykum" is a pillar, even higher than a fard.

Ya, but when I'm home or at the Shia temple I have to pray on turbah, though I don't think it should be a big deal.

It's definitely a bid'ah, however, you have to do what you have to do and I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.  The fact that you don't believe it is an act of worship excuses you insha'Allah.  You want to pray, and they do things differently, therefore you have no choice.  Its the same as following a different madhhab than the masjid you are in, I don't believe in Qunoot in fajr, but I still do it anyway if I'm in a masjid doing it.  Also, since the Hanafis don't say Ameen, if I'm in a Hanafi dominated masjid and I notice they don't say Ameen, I don't do it to be respectful.  However, most Hanafi masjid I go to, the laymen Hanafis do it even if the students of knowledge don't.

Interesting, as I got the impression from Sunniforum that going between madhabs is haraam. Theoretically, would it be haraam if I took the easiest opinions? What if my local sheikh gives me an opinion which I find out later is weak (happened to me)? Thanks

That is the position that Ahnaaf in general take, although I'm not sure even they would go as far as saying its haraam.  The other three madhhabs are of the opinion that the laymen has no madhhab, with practically only or two exceptions in the Hanbali madhhab.  The Ahnaaf adopted this position due to historical reasons that are beyond this discussion.  Here is a link discussion the views that the majority of scholars stated the laymen does not have a madhhab: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?225857-The-Layman-has-no-Madhab

As far as the idea of "strong" vs "weak" opinion, then this is not up to you to decide unless you actually study; then comes the idea of adopting a madhhab because simply speaking this is the most practical way to learn the religion.  Take it from me, I tried to go madhhab-less and it is a long road and I'm not sure you'll ever reach the conclusion you want.  As you are still young, I would learn from different mashayikh and see which "style" suits you best, then I would adopt a madhhab and learn my religion.  Don't forget the Arabic however, as you will never reach a decent level of scholarship without it

[Khaled]

Sticking to one madhab is the best and also recomended by salafi shuyookh.

What does "sticking" to a madhhab mean though?  The scholars promote learning your religion from a madhhab, not to stick fanatically to it even if you are a laymen.  If you mean "stick" i.e. study, that is a completely different statement then "only take fatwas from people from your madhhab."

[Furkan]

Keeping to one madhab made my life easier to learn the religion as well as to get answers on my fiqhi questions. It would be hard for me to make a decision between 4 madhabs each time i have a question, so I follow a certain routine/ madhab which gives me plural options within my madhab itself, when i need them as well as gives me certainty to me for not being one who follows his own lazy nafs.

But the case of Brother Bolani is much complexer indeed.

[Bolani Muslim]

Can you explain how they do it?  Is just a du'aa like the one done by the mainstream Muslims?

https://youtu.be/Qo1UaoEUYZo?t=4m3s

The tasleem (saying as-Salaam alykum) is a pillar of prayer in the Hanbali madhhab, meaning if you don't do it then your prayer is invalid and you can't even do the Sajdah of Forgetfulness for it.  So keep in mind that the turning of the head is sunnah, and the saying of "as-salamu alykum" is a pillar, even higher than a fard.

Thanks, this shouldn't be a problem InshAllah.

It's definitely a bid'ah, however, you have to do what you have to do and I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.  The fact that you don't believe it is an act of worship excuses you insha'Allah.  You want to pray, and they do things differently, therefore you have no choice.  Its the same as following a different madhhab than the masjid you are in, I don't believe in Qunoot in fajr, but I still do it anyway if I'm in a masjid doing it.  Also, since the Hanafis don't say Ameen, if I'm in a Hanafi dominated masjid and I notice they don't say Ameen, I don't do it to be respectful.  However, most Hanafi masjid I go to, the laymen Hanafis do it even if the students of knowledge don't.

Thanks, it's funny because it's a habit of mine to pray on one even if no one's around, lol. Also, Hanafis say the Ameen, just quietly.

That is the position that Ahnaaf in general take, although I'm not sure even they would go as far as saying its haraam.  The other three madhhabs are of the opinion that the laymen has no madhhab, with practically only or two exceptions in the Hanbali madhhab.  The Ahnaaf adopted this position due to historical reasons that are beyond this discussion.  Here is a link discussion the views that the majority of scholars stated the laymen does not have a madhhab: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?225857-The-Layman-has-no-Madhab

As far as the idea of "strong" vs "weak" opinion, then this is not up to you to decide unless you actually study; then comes the idea of adopting a madhhab because simply speaking this is the most practical way to learn the religion.  Take it from me, I tried to go madhhab-less and it is a long road and I'm not sure you'll ever reach the conclusion you want.  As you are still young, I would learn from different mashayikh and see which "style" suits you best, then I would adopt a madhhab and learn my religion.  Don't forget the Arabic however, as you will never reach a decent level of scholarship without it

Both informing and overwhelming.  I think I should just get the local Sheikh's number and listen to what he says if I got any questions. I was worried since he wasn't Hanafi, that I'd be doing something haraam.

[Khaled]

https://youtu.be/Qo1UaoEUYZo?t=4m3s

I'm not going to lie to you, I couldn't sit through that... lol.  However, like I said, just stand there and try not to bring attention to yourself.  They will all insult you and say you are wrong then turn around and accuse you of being a Wahhabi who thinks everyone else is following the wrong Islam.

Both informing and overwhelming.  I think I should just get the local Sheikh's number and listen to what he says if I got any questions. I was worried since he wasn't Hanafi, that I'd be doing something haraam.

LOL, I'm sorry but I'm the type that likes to talk about the Deen and sometimes I give out more information than what is needed; this is an aspect of wisdom I clearly don't have.  You should see the blank look on my wife's face whenever I discuss anything about the Deen with her.  However, think of it this way, if you have to follow a madhhab, and you choose the Hanbali madhhab, and the Hanbali madhhab says the layman has no madhhab, doesn't that mean you are not a Hanbali then?  I would definitely check out how the different scholars deal with things before deciding on a madhhab, you may even like the Maliki madhhab most because its supposedly the closest madhhab to the "Ja'fari" madhhab.  However, I'm not sure there's really any plausible way you can follow it in North America unless there are pockets of Malikis out here that I don't know about.

[Khaled]

Keeping to one madhab made my life easier to learn the religion as well as to get answers on my fiqhi questions. It would be hard for me to make a decision between 4 madhabs each time i have a question, so I follow a certain routine/ madhab which gives me plural options within my madhab itself, when i need them as well as gives me certainty to me for not being one who follows his own lazy nafs.

But the case of Brother Bolani is much complexer indeed.

Following a madhhab is much easier for a person who is born Muslim (or in the case of Bolani, born Sunni) than not.  I've heard the topic of choosing a madhhab turn off a lot of people to Islam when they first convert.  Think about how much people like Ameen, for example, would harp on about "why only 4? why those 4?  "

[Bolani Muslim]

I'm not going to lie to you, I couldn't sit through that... lol.  However, like I said, just stand there and try not to bring attention to yourself.  They will all insult you and say you are wrong then turn around and accuse you of being a Wahhabi who thinks everyone else is following the wrong Islam.

It's not that I don't mind 'standing there', however if I don't raise my hands with everyone else, then I could be bringing unwanted 'attention' to myself

LOL, I'm sorry but I'm the type that likes to talk about the Deen and sometimes I give out more information than what is needed; this is an aspect of wisdom I clearly don't have.  You should see the blank look on my wife's face whenever I discuss anything about the Deen with her.  However, think of it this way, if you have to follow a madhhab, and you choose the Hanbali madhhab, and the Hanbali madhhab says the layman has no madhhab, doesn't that mean you are not a Hanbali then?  I would definitely check out how the different scholars deal with things before deciding on a madhhab, you may even like the Maliki madhhab most because its supposedly the closest madhhab to the "Ja'fari" madhhab.  However, I'm not sure there's really any plausible way you can follow it in North America unless there are pockets of Malikis out here that I don't know about.

No need to apologize . It's just that after spending so much time on SF and reading on the Deobandis, this new info shocked me. It's not that I'm pro 'mixing' madhabs, it's just that with such mixed communities and a mixed internet, strictly following one madhab can be difficult. After more soul searching online, it seems that its only the Pakistani ulema who are against taqlid shakhsi (mixing madhabs) and that the majority hold a similar view to the rest of the ulema.
I personally feel the Hanafi madhab is closest to the Shias. The only commonality Shias have with Malikis is that Malikis have 1 opinion saying to leave hands open (even though their are 2 mashur opinions). Yeah, the reason I never became a Maliki is because theirs almost no info on them in English.