The following is a translated transcript of a debate I had two days ago with a Shi’ee. Never in my life have I seen so much deceit in a debate, all for the sake of winning, instead of engaging in dialogue for the sake of truth.
Background: The debate was about the Pen and Paper incident and our current discussion was regarding whether or not the appointment of Ali was documented or not. To my shock, the Shi’ee that I was debating held the belief that the appointment of Ali was documented, but that it only reached the Shias while the Sunnis did not preserve it. Do note that I went ahead and underlined and bolded some of the dubious statements by this Shia debater.
After quoting a lengthy hadith in Al-Kafi that speaks of the documented appointment of Ali and the rest of his progeny, I provide to the readers what transpired word for word:
Farid [21:00] My generous brother, the narration is weak, for it has Bakr bin Salih who is weak and Abdulrahman bin Salim is weak. Brother Bulldozer (another user), I hand the mic back to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:01] How is it weak? Can you show me how it is weak?
Farid [21:01] Al-Najashi weakened Bakr bin Salih and Abdulrahman bin Salim is anonymous, and that is what I found in the book Al-Mufeed min Mu’jam Rijal Al-Hadith, which who penned by Mohammad Al-Jawahiri, who built his book upon Al-Khoei’s Mu’jam Rijal Al-Hadith. I hand the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:01] How many chains to this Saheefa, my dear brother? Free mic.
Farid [21:01] What? I did not get the question.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:01] How many chains to this Saheefa, my dear brother?
Farid [21:01] How many years? Excuse me brother, but your voice is unclear.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:02] How many chains to this Hadith?
Farid [21:02] According to your chain, there is only one, does it have others?
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:02] This has three chains, which of them do you weaken?
Farid [21:02] The chain that is in front of me is the chain of Abdulrahman bin Salim, the chains go through him, and he is narrating from Abi Baseer. I hand the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:02] Which chain from these did you weaken?
Farid [21:02] My brother, do you mean by the three chains the chain that goes through Mohammad bin Yahya and Mohammad bin Abdullah? Because Al-Kulayni gathered these are one narration, so if you are suggesting that these are three chains because of the combination of narrators from Abdulrahman bin Salim, then it is no issue, because all of them narrations-- Abdulrahman bin Salim is the source of all of these narrations. Due to this, the hadith is weak due to the anonymity of this narrator.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:03] My dear brother, there are three chains that have been gathered in one narration. Through three chains. Three chains. This is the first thing. You weakened one of them. There are two left, can you weaken the other two chains?
Farid [21:03] My generous brother, where are the two chains? If you mean by “three chains” that was has appeared in Al-Kafi, then that is all one chain that Al-Kulayni gathered. Do you understand, my generous brother?
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:04] So what do you think of what Abdulrahman bin Salim, who said: Abu Baseer said: “If you did not hear anything else in your days, except this hadith, then it would be sufficient for you, so protect it, except from those that will get it.” What do you say about this?
Farid [21:04] This Abdulrahman bin Salim is not worth a cent, in my view or your view, for he is anonymous. To you I leave the mic.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:04] If he is not worth a cent in my view or yours, then the Qur’an as a whole is narrated from him. All fourteen narrations are narrated from him. To you is the mic.
Farid [21:04] Bring your evidence, may Allah bless you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:04] Open the Qur’an that you have with you, the one that is with you, and open the last page, and read to me the chain that is with you. To you I leave the mic.
Farid [21:05] My dear brother, my narration of the Qur’an is the narration of Hafs from Asim bin Abi Abdulrahman Al-Sulami from Ali bin Abi Talib. Where is this man Abdulrahman bin Salim?
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:05] You said that you weakened Abu Abdulrahman Al-Sulami. You said that you weakened Abu Abdulrahman Al-Sulami. Is Abu Abdulrahman Al-Sulami reliable to you? To you I leave the m-.
Farid [21:05] He is reliable. To you I leave the mic.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:05] I want someone from your scholars of hadith that has authenticated Abu Abdulrahman Al-Sulami. To you I leave the mic.
Farid [21:06] This is from Tahtheeb Al-Kamal. He was authenticated by Al-Nasa’ee, who said he is reliable. And he said- A moment, my generous brother. Ibn Abdulbar said: He is reliable according to all. To you I leave the mic.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:06] Well done. Why didn’t Al-Bukhari and Muslim strengthen him? To you I leave the mic.
Farid [21:06] The topic has been diverted, may Allah bless you, the topic has been diverted.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:06] No, I am talking about the science of Rijal, because you went to the science of Rijal. Why wasn’t he relied upon by Al-Bukhari and Muslim?
Farid [21:07] [Abdullah] bin Habeeb, who is Abu Abdulrahman Al-Sulami, is from the narrators of Al-Bukhari and Muslim, may Allah bless you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:07] Ok. Who weakened Abu Baseer? Who weakened Abu Baseer, from us? To you I leave the mic.
Farid [21:07] There is no reason to look at the status of Abu Baseer, because the status of – because – because the status of someone else in the chain is weak, like Abdulrahman bin Salim firstly, and Bakr bin Salih, who is weak according to Al-Najashi.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:07] So if there was a difference in the chains on the various levels in two hadiths or three, then what is the grading of this hadith in the opinion of the scholars of hadith? I leave the mic to you.
Farid [21:08] My generous brother, bring the other chains, may Allah bless you. You directed me to Usool Al-Kafi, the book of Al-Hujjah, the chapter of What was Mentioned of the Twelve Imams, and you brought the one hadith, which is the hadith of Bakr bin Salih from Abdulrahman bin Salim, and my words are about this hadith alone. I leave the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:08] You weakened the hadith on various levels, now we are not talking about the chains, let us say that they are all weak, but they come in various levels, what is the grading of the hadith in the view of Sunnis and Shias?
Farid [21:08] How are they in different levels, may Allah bless you. Explain to me what you mean by this. Do you have other chains for this hadith?
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:08] May Allah’s salutations be upon Mohammad and the progeny of Mohammad. I said to – and you said – that Al-Najashi weakened these three chains, which come in various levels, a person, another person, and another person. This has nothing to do with it. What is the grading of the hadith that is full of weak narrators from different levels. For example, it comes from (1) Zaid from Amr from Mohammad. All three are weak. And it comes from (2) Abbas from Kathim from Abu Thar, and those three are weak. And it comes from (3) Ju’ailus and Ju’was and Maryous, and all three are weak, and the narration itself, what is the grading of the hadith in the eyes of the scholars of hadith? To you I leave the mic.
Farid [21:09] You made me laugh (because of the funny names), may Allah bless you. These narrations – if the narrators of these narrations are slightly weak, then it is fine to strengthen the hadith by combining their strengths, but if the hadith is very weak, then it is not permissible to strengthen the hadith, and this is the opinion of a lot of the scholars of hadith. There are also those that say that a hadith cannot be strengthened if they were all weak. This is another view. If you say that these weak narrations can strengthen each other, then we find tawatur in meaning in the narrations of that speak of the tampering with the Qur’an in your school, for these narrations have surpassed a thousand. So do you say that the narrations of tampering with the Qur’an are authentic because they have come in many chains? I leave the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:10] I will respond to your question, but I want from you the definition of a mutawatir hadith by Ibn Taymiyyah. Ibn Taymiyyah in specific, of the mutawatir hadith. There is someone known as tahreef of the word from its position, and this is about the exegesis of the words of Allah, in a way that goes against the will of Allah, and this occurred. There is also a tahreef in the diacriticals marks, and this exists in the seven recitations, ten, and fourteen. There is also a tahreef in the number of the verses, and this also occurred, because the seven recitations differ in the number of the verses of the Qur’an. There is also another tahreef according to you, because you said that Bismillah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem is not part of the Qur’an, meaning that it was added onto the Qur’an, and this is your opinion. These meanings have occurred. As for the view that the words of man have been added to the Book or that words of Allah have been removed from the book, then we do not say this. Rather, other meanings (of tahreef) have occurred. The evidence of this is that our exegesis is different from your exegesis, and your exegesis differs from one to the other. So, is the meaning of what Allah wanted this opinion, as per your exegesis, or that opinion, as per your exegesis. For example, Allah’s words: “And a witness from Him recites it,” from Surat Hud. They said that this is the tongue of the Prophet, or Jibreel, or a great angel, or Ali bin Abi Talib. The verse “a witness” has one meaning. From these four, only one is correct. To you I leave the mic. This meaning exists.
Farid [21:12] My dear brother, it seems as though the topic has changed. Choose one topic to discuss if you like. As for this narration, hopefully, we are done with it. I am referring to the third hadith in the book “Chapter of What was Mentioned of the Twelve Imams”. I hope we are done with that. If you wish to change the topic, then you may. Though, I wish we can choose one topic, and to stick with it. I leave the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:12] No, my dear brother, you asked me for a hadith about this, I responded, and I asked a question. What is the meaning of mutawatir according to Ibn Taymiyyah? We want the answer to this. I leave the mic to you.
Farid [21:13] Do you want to discuss, my generous brother, the meaning of mutawatir? Is this what you want my generous brother? I leave the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:13] You have brother something that was not brought by the scholars of hadith. I said to you that a hadith that has many levels, if it comes through unreliable people, then the hadith is still authentic. Rather, they said that it is mutawatir. If the exact text is the same, then it is mutawatir in text, and meaning if it comes in the same meaning. You said something else. I leave the mic to you.
Farid [21:14] My generous brother, I think my words were clear, I said that all the chains go back to two narrators, Bakr bin Salih and Abdulrahman bin Salim. This is what I said. If the narrations come to get, yet go back to these two men, who narrate from one another, then it cannot be strengthened even if the whole world narrated from them, for the narration has come through one source. If that one source is weak, then how can the narration be strengthened? I leave the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:15] Give me two minutes and I will be with you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:16] Allow me to read to you from Rijal Al-Khoei #4957, Salim bin Abdulrahman Al-Ashal, who narrated, from the companions of Al-Sadiq (as). From the narrators of Al-Shaikh (Al-Tusi). Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri said in the biography of his son Abdulrahman that “he is reliable, a narrator from Abu Ja’afar and Abu Abdullah (as).” You said that “he is not reliable according to you.” So what do you say now? I leave the mic to you.
Farid [21:17] Give me a few seconds, may Allah bless you. I have Rijal Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri with me, and I will return to this biography, and I will get back to you, Allah-willing. A few seconds please.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:17] In these seconds, I will share with you what Al-Najashi said. “Al-Najashi said in the biography of his son Abdulrahman bin Salim. Salim used to sell copies of the Qur’an.” This is in his biography. Your mic.
Farid [21:17] My generous brother, your quote from Al-Khoei the biography of Abdulrahman bin Salim, or what exactly? Because in my copy of Rijal Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri, “Abdulrahman bin Salim bin Abdulrahman Al-Ashal is a Kufi mawla, that narrates from Abu Baseer, he is weak, and his father is reliable.” Of course, we are not discussing the father of Abdulrahman bin Salim, but we are talking about Abdulrahman bin Salim. According to Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri, this man is weak.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:18] O’ Allah send your salutations upon Mohammad and his progeny. I will share with you from Rijal Al-Khoei, which is with me. He says, “Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri said in the biography of his son Abdulrahman: He is reliable, and he narrated from Abu Ja’afar and Abu [Abdullah] (as).” It is possible that your copy or the website that you are quoting from is a Wahabi site, my generous brother. Free (mic).
Farid [21:18] My generous brother, refer to the biography of Abdulrahman bin Salim and not the biography of Salim. Yes, Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri strengthens Salim, but he did not strengthen Abdulrahman, but rather, he said that Abdulrahman is weak. I leave the mic to you.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:19] Al-Khoei quotes in the biography of Salim, his father, “Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri said, in the biography of his son Abdulrahman: He is reliable. He narrated from Abu Ja’afar and Abu Abdullah (as).” This is the text. Whether or not Ibn Al-Ghadha’iri strengthened him, Al-Khoei strengthened him, and this ends it. You are aware, in Rijal Al-Hadith, if Al-Bukhari did not strengthen a Sunni hadith, it can still be strengthened by Ibn Majah for example, or Ahmad bin Hanbal. I have no problem with this. Free mic.
Farid [21:19] Brother, refer to the biography of Al-Khoei for Abdulrahman bin Salim and you will find your answer, Allah-willing.
Lover of Ahlulbayt [21:20] Which Abdulrahman bin Salim from amongst them? The son of Abdulrahman?
Farid [21:20] Yes, Abdulrahman bin Salim bin Abdulrahman Al-Ashal. I leave the mic to you.
Farid [21:22] Notice, may Allah bless you, in the biography #6386, Al-Khoei says when quoting Ibn Al-Ghadh’airi… Give me a second, may Allah bless you. “He narrated from Abu Baseer. He is weak.” I leave the mic to you.
Farid [21:31] Excuse me my brothers, but I need to head off. I enjoyed this conversation with you all and I hope to meet you all once again in the coming days, and I hope that we learned a lesson from this exercise in the end, and it is: To not be hasty in authenticating narrations simply because they appeal to our beliefs. May Allah award you all and peace be upon you all.
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July 17, 2014, 10:34:36 AM