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Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying

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Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2015, 11:26:51 PM »
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.

Which Imam are you talking about and which story are you mentioning?!!

[From Zurarah ibn A’ayun: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]
source: al-Kafi 1/65.

Note: the bold part is why i believe shia imam with their taqiya is also the imam of misguidance

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2015, 11:50:00 PM »
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.

Which Imam are you talking about and which story are you mentioning?!!

[From Zurarah ibn A’ayun: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]
source: al-Kafi 1/65.

Note: the bold part is why i believe shia imam with their taqiya is also the imam of misguidance

So what was the question and what was the reply??? No base here and nothing makes any sense. Do you believe in such silly made up stories, with no head and no tail??? It doesn't make any sense. Anyone can make rubbish up like this without any base what so ever. And stupid are those who believe and or mention such stuff without examining and thinking about it. Give me something that has a solid base and has to do with sense and logic.

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2015, 12:18:38 AM »
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2015, 12:32:04 AM »
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2015, 12:40:28 AM »
You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

We do NOT believe that A LOT of our narrations are weak that are found in our authentic books, بارك الله فيك.

When we are presented with a narration from our most authentic books that is weak or is difficult for us (as individuals, not as an Ummah) to explain, our first reaction isn't to say:

Quote
Do you believe in such silly made up stories, with no head and no tail??? It doesn't make any sense. Anyone can make rubbish up like this without any base what so ever. And stupid are those who believe and or mention such stuff without examining and thinking about it. Give me something that has a solid base and has to do with sense and logic.

I am giving you sincere advice as your Muslim brother; you don't know what is being discussed and you are in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2015, 12:41:32 AM »
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 12:58:47 AM »
You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

We do NOT believe that A LOT of our narrations are weak that are found in our authentic books, بارك الله فيك.

When we are presented with a narration from our most authentic books that is weak or is difficult for us (as individuals, not as an Ummah) to explain, our first reaction isn't to say:

Quote
Do you believe in such silly made up stories, with no head and no tail??? It doesn't make any sense. Anyone can make rubbish up like this without any base what so ever. And stupid are those who believe and or mention such stuff without examining and thinking about it. Give me something that has a solid base and has to do with sense and logic.

I am giving you sincere advice as your Muslim brother; you don't know what is being discussed and you are in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD.

Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 01:00:07 AM »
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D

No they didn't. You're just blowing hot air now. You need to learn about Shiaism and also Islam.

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 01:33:03 AM »
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D

No they didn't. You're just blowing hot air now. You need to learn about Shiaism and also Islam.

Shia scholars dont think Zurara was a close companion of the imam who narrated many authentic shia ahadith?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha wait wait

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha stop it

hahahahahahahaha Amen Bot

Rationalist

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 04:07:25 AM »
You certainly don't do Matham, so where did you get your injury from that you can't seem to get over it???
Here is the where I got it from.


Quote
It's not about standing up for yourself, it's about pointing out the double standards that people have here. If I go off topic or you want me to start another thread for something then, why do you turn a blind eye if it is one of you or your side kicks???
The reason is you turn a blind eye when I criticize Iran. However, when it comes to the sahaba, the hatred you have against their mistakes is unmatched.

Quote
This is what it's all about. What have you achieved so far??? Have you managed to convince people about Shiaism and how many have you converted??? So what's your latest figures??? Or is it failure from the beginning till the end??? Try to be civilised and go for an academic discussion rather than sarcasm and slander. But it seems to me it is beyond your ability, otherwise I wouldn't have to tell and point it out to you.
I never said 12ers are kaffirs. In fact unlike your sect, I don't think only a group of people can qualify as momins. My goal here is to point out where 12ers are wrong. Its up to them to accept the criticism or be sensitive like the Yahood.

MuslimK

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Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 02:57:35 PM »
It is not lying, it is worse than lying especially when their supposed Imams, who were supposedly appointed by Allah to guide the people, use Taqqiyah. Their Imam's Taqqiyah is lying upon Allah and the Messenger, concealing the truth and misguiding the people.

در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2015, 03:10:43 PM »
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D

No they didn't. You're just blowing hot air now. You need to learn about Shiaism and also Islam.

Shia scholars dont think Zurara was a close companion of the imam who narrated many authentic shia ahadith?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha wait wait

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha stop it

hahahahahahahaha Amen Bot

Do you believe in every single thing that is written in your books???? Do you believe in every single thing that any Ahle Sunnah scholar says???? Just apply the same thinking and rules on us that you apply and seem fit for yourself. It's just as simple as that!

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 03:17:39 PM »
You said,

"The reason is you turn a blind eye when I criticize Iran. However, when it comes to the sahaba, the hatred you have against their mistakes is unmatched",

I don't turn a blind eye when you criticise Iran. My point is that you only criticise Iran and no one else and you never compliment Iran. This is exactly my point. Balance the argument and equalise it.

Please do point out where the 12rs are wrong. But don't just leave it there. Also point out where they are right. And also point out where the Ahle Sunnah are wrong and where Sahaba went wrong. Again balance the argument and make the discussion fair. Not too much to ask for, is it??!

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 03:20:59 PM »
It is not lying, it is worse than lying especially when their supposed Imams, who were supposedly appointed by Allah to guide the people, use Taqqiyah. Their Imam's Taqqiyah is lying upon Allah and the Messenger, concealing the truth and misguiding the people.



And you honestly believe that the Imams would do that??? When you get hold of any material, don't you examine it??? Don't you look in to it??? Whether it makes any sense or not??? If Shias put forward material from your books and statements of your scholars, you are very quick to reject and condemn it, why don't you apply the same rules here??? Or at least think about it.

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2015, 03:32:15 PM »
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2015, 03:59:24 PM »
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.

Where did I criticise Umar Ibne Khattab??? And for what??? Refresh my memory please!

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2015, 04:02:10 PM »
It doesn't matter which companion it is, what ever they are accused of and if they are accused of something, I will look in to it with the same principals, understanding and rules. Can you do that??? This is how it should be. Have I said something wrong here??? Or may be you need to get on track.

Furkan

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2015, 04:08:17 PM »
Hani, just ban him, he spams.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2015, 04:17:01 PM »
Hani, just ban him, he spams.

What do you mean??? Care to explain yourself???

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2015, 04:56:24 PM »
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

While your mud slinging is far more representative of you, in Ahl as-Sunnah we don't accept narrations based on our ideology; heck our scholars narrated ahadeeth from all kinds of sects, including believe it or not, Shia.  We base our authentication on five condition, بارك الله فيك:

1) A connection chain of narrators.
2) Everyone in the chain is upright (whether they are from a sect or not).
3) Everyone in the chain is considered strong in their memory and relaying of the text.  If they are the hadeeth is considered Saheeh, if they are considered a lower level the scholars would lessed the hadeeth to the status of hassan.
4) It is not Shaath, or an outlier report.  Meaning, we might get 5 reports all saying the same thing and one report saying something different.  Even if that report has an authentic chain, it would be weakened because of this contradiction.
5) That there are not other irregularities that would cause a report to be inauthentic.

Now I ask you brother Ameen, how do your scholars authenticate reports?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

 

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