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Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying

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Hadrami

Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« on: April 07, 2015, 11:36:40 PM »
We know shia imam loves taqiyah as such that they even do that to their own student, so it's not surprising that people ridicule this and say its just a license to lie. One shia complains and wrote

Quote
When taqiya is allowed for both Sunni & Shia, why Sunni say shia taqiya = lies? They are both allowed, the differences are just the limit set. It is not true that shia allow taqiyah to be done anytime on any circumstances.

The hadith "taqiya=9/10 of religion & whoever abandones it has abandon the religion" is just to show that if you abandon it then you reject the nass. That 9/10 expression is to describe that rejection. That's all. So we reject this accussation of taqiya = lie

What do you guys think? Are we being unfair to shia?

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 11:46:55 PM »
What do you guys think? Are we being unfair to shia?

No we are not بارك الله فيك:

1) Taqiyyah with the Shi'a does not have to be in a state of Daroorah.  Our scholars deferentiate between daroora and haajah.  Daroora is when there is no possible alternative, such as when a person is starving and will die and there isn't any food around except for pork, while a haaja is a need, but there are alternatives.  For Shi'as, they use taqiyyah even when their lives is not in danger; i.e. whenever they give da'wah or explain their religion to their opponents (sunnis and zaydis).

2) If our concept was the same, then you would see Sunnis practicing taqiyyah in Iran, Yemen and even the secular states.  Heck, most of us live in the west where they are practically outlawing Islam and we still don't hide what we believe.

3) Shi'as believe that Taqiyyah is an asl in their madhhab which cannot be left until the Madhi comes.  Meaning, you cannot leave taqiyyah as it is a fundamental part of the faith.  However, Sunnis do leave taqiyyah even when their lives is at stake.  Take Ahmad bin Hanbal as a perfect example.  During his time, the government was persecuting the Sunni scholars and forcing them to adopt the views of the Mu'tazilah.  Most of our scholars in Baghdad (where this fitnah was happening) decided to keep quite on the issue.  They didn't public come out and state that they believed the Qur'an was created; but they didn't come out openly and say they didn't either.  Imam Ahmad رحمه الله decided that he wasn't going to hid his belief because he felt the VIEWS OF AHL AS-SUNNAH WOULD BE LOST IF HE PRACTICED TAQIYYAH!!  How different is this from the Shi'i view?

والله تعالى أعلى وأعلم
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Rationalist

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2015, 12:46:04 AM »
 They lie to promote their sect.

Here is a transcript between a 12er and myself.

Me
u do taqiyyah pretending to like the first 2 calipahs

Twelver
yes diplomacy

Me
bro don't make taqiyyah an excuse for lying

Twelver
i cant say bad things about them
openly

Me
i don't want your diplomacy

Twelver
this is what we believe

Me
i even respect yassir habib

Twelver
to avoid fitna

Me
so why do u it online
that's in public
u just do it because u don't want people to attack ur sect
bro a lie is a lie
u will have to answer for that
nobody is going to kill u online

Twelver
i dont want people to attack my Imams

Me
well that's why u became a coward
and pretend to be a sunni
is that what the true companions of imam ali did ?
the  narration on that
that for death not for deception
u are not being killed right now

Twelver
we are not deceiving anyone

Me
yes u are

Twelver
why should i say bad things about Umar openly

Me
don't pretend u are sunni
and don't pretend u care about first 2 calipahs
if u are afraid people will attack u
then just don't say things which will cause that
u don't have to say i respect the first 2
when u don't
and this exactly why i respect yassir habib

Twelver
yassir al habib goes against our teachings dude
taqiyya is necessary
he called Ayesha a prostitute

Me
but don't except me to trust u
when u make empty claims

Twelver
is that ok?

Me
well al khoei permits the slandering of the companions
and tafsir al qummis says
that she had an affair with Talha

Twelver
u know what ur talking

Me
no his claims are from your own books

Twelver
that is weak
daif

Me
how do u know ?
everybody knows that
not according to the Shi'achat admin


Twelver
he is a fool
yassir
taking all the narration

Me
so what about Naskhawani ?
he takes weak narrations too
he said the mahdi will be assassinated by a Jewish women

Twelver
hmm
that is a weak narration

Me
its not even weak
Its a story without a chain

Twelver
No doubt she is bad but not a prostitute, this is way too far
it doesn't even have a chain

Me
ok
so again is nakshawani can be respected
why can't yassir al habib
in fact even shaykh mufid quotes a story
where it has no chains
yet he is biggest scholar in your school

Twelver
hmmm
i wonder why u guys support a slanderer like him
cause he doesn't do taqiyyah
he is paid by Mi6
that's propoganda

Me
is the Shi'achat paid by them too ?

Twelver
The admin does not talk crap like him

Me
he supported the narration
about Ayesha and Talha
on top that al khoie says it encouraged 12ers to slander the companions

'Twever'
they are going by logic

Me
ok then
yassir al habib isn't wrong in his representation
sometimes i need to see how the 12er shia think in their hearts
which they disguise by taqiyyah
and yassir habib helps me there

Twelver
this is the logic
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:34:12 PM by Hani »

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2015, 12:54:54 AM »
You left out his name "*****" in the last couple of lines by mistake : p
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 12:34:35 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2015, 02:36:06 AM »
Edit it out for me. This is the taqiyyah I would like to apply for him, since he lives in a Sunni  majority country and pretends he is a Hanafi. Yet at the same time he slanders Abu Hanifa. But still lets protect his identity. 

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2015, 02:49:47 AM »
no matter how good someone is at lying, it will be revealed one way or another :D

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2015, 08:43:29 AM »
Gentlemen it doesn't matter if it is me, you or anyone else, rather than having and immature discussion, by contibuting towards that discussion with a childish or child like response, why not have a discussion with sense and logic based on reality and facts???

So let me start off,

What is the difinition of Taqeyya??? What does it mean??? And can someone give me an example of it and then lets compare it to lying.

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2015, 09:11:57 AM »
Mr Ameen Bot, try answering this one (http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/ali-ra-gave-his-daughter-to-umar-ra/msg5617/#new) before you get involve in this thread

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2015, 05:12:08 PM »
Gentlemen it doesn't matter if it is me, you or anyone else, rather than having and immature discussion, by contibuting towards that discussion with a childish or child like response, why not have a discussion with sense and logic based on reality and facts???

So let me start off,

What is the difinition of Taqeyya??? What does it mean??? And can someone give me an example of it and then lets compare it to lying.

We already started off بارك الله فيك.  I would love to see if you agree with my explanation of the difference between the Sunni and the Shi'i view of taqiyyah.  I would love you to focus especially on how taqiyyah is an Asl (foundation) of Shi'ism, while merely it is something that is allowed in mainstream Islam.  I would love for you to also focus on the difference between Ahmad ibn Hanbal abandoning taqiyyah when he felt that it would have a negative effect on the Deen to hide is opinion, and contrast that with your sects' views about how the Imams hid their views, and how that has led to the deviation of 90% of the Ummah (according to your view of course).
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Rationalist

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2015, 11:53:39 PM »
Gentlemen it doesn't matter if it is me, you or anyone else, rather than having and immature discussion, by contibuting towards that discussion with a childish or child like response, why not have a discussion with sense and logic based on reality and facts???

So let me start off,

What is the difinition of Taqeyya??? What does it mean??? And can someone give me an example of it and then lets compare it to lying.

Start a new topic on that. On this thread we are discussing how the "Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying"

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2015, 01:51:27 PM »
Why should I start a new topic on this??? When I was asked about evidence on the marriage of Imam Askari (11th Shia Imama) on the thread "Ali gave his daughter to Umar", why didn't you say anything then??? Why didn't you step forward, be a man that you are and put forward your principal by saying to brother Hani that, you need to start a separate thread and ask him there??? It's always double standards with you lovely gentlemen, isn't it??? There no such thing as single standards, equal opportunity or justice and fairness, when it comes to your kind. This is why you desparately struggle to explain and justify anything.

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2015, 02:03:18 PM »
Shias shouldn't be complaining why their Taqeyya is considered lying. Hey, they shouldn't be complaining about anything when it comes to your kind. They should know that you have nothing better to do than to start a thread based on accusations and run off then strat another thread based on another accusation and then run off again with another one.

This has become your way of life since you never had the ability to talk about and promote your Aqeedah. When you don't have this then the only means of your survival and consuming your time is to raise suspicion and cast doubt upon the Shias.

Furkan

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2015, 02:25:44 PM »
^ So rebelious ::)
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2015, 10:24:21 PM »
^ So rebelious ::)

You mean,

How accurate and how true!

I know it is difficult to come out of you, so let me say it for you.

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2015, 10:32:20 PM »
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2015, 10:41:56 PM »
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.

Which Imam are you talking about and which story are you mentioning?!!

Rationalist

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2015, 10:59:29 PM »
Why should I start a new topic on this??? When I was asked about evidence on the marriage of Imam Askari (11th Shia Imama) on the thread "Ali gave his daughter to Umar", why didn't you say anything then??? Why didn't you step forward, be a man that you are and put forward your principal by saying to brother Hani that, you need to start a separate thread and ask him there??? It's always double standards with you lovely gentlemen, isn't it??? There no such thing as single standards, equal opportunity or justice and fairness, when it comes to your kind. This is why you desparately struggle to explain and justify anything.

Why didn't you complain? Can you not stand up for yourself ? Remember the topic about went off by discussing bastards and products of Muta, it was closed when you complained. So your right were protected.

Rationalist

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2015, 11:00:53 PM »

This has become your way of life since you never had the ability to talk about and promote your Aqeedah. When you don't have this then the only means of your survival and consuming your time is to raise suspicion and cast doubt upon the Shias.

There is a reason why this site is called twelvershia.net. Has it not processed in your head ? Are you still recovering from an injury caused by mattam ?

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2015, 11:21:10 PM »
You certainly don't do Matham, so where did you get your injury from that you can't seem to get over it??? It's not about standing up for yourself, it's about pointing out the double standards that people have here. If I go off topic or you want me to start another thread for something then, why do you turn a blind eye if it is one of you or your side kicks??? This is what it's all about. What have you achieved so far??? Have you managed to convince people about Shiaism and how many have you converted??? So what's your latest figures??? Or is it failure from the beginning till the end??? Try to be civilised and go for an academic discussion rather than sarcasm and slander. But it seems to me it is beyond your ability, otherwise I wouldn't have to tell and point it out to you.

Furkan

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2015, 11:24:37 PM »
Hhahahha, I like this.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

 

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