TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Hadrami on April 08, 2015, 01:36:40 AM

Title: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 08, 2015, 01:36:40 AM
We know shia imam loves taqiyah as such that they even do that to their own student, so it's not surprising that people ridicule this and say its just a license to lie. One shia complains and wrote

Quote
When taqiya is allowed for both Sunni & Shia, why Sunni say shia taqiya = lies? They are both allowed, the differences are just the limit set. It is not true that shia allow taqiyah to be done anytime on any circumstances.

The hadith "taqiya=9/10 of religion & whoever abandones it has abandon the religion" is just to show that if you abandon it then you reject the nass. That 9/10 expression is to describe that rejection. That's all. So we reject this accussation of taqiya = lie

What do you guys think? Are we being unfair to shia?
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 08, 2015, 01:46:55 AM
What do you guys think? Are we being unfair to shia?

No we are not بارك الله فيك:

1) Taqiyyah with the Shi'a does not have to be in a state of Daroorah.  Our scholars deferentiate between daroora and haajah.  Daroora is when there is no possible alternative, such as when a person is starving and will die and there isn't any food around except for pork, while a haaja is a need, but there are alternatives.  For Shi'as, they use taqiyyah even when their lives is not in danger; i.e. whenever they give da'wah or explain their religion to their opponents (sunnis and zaydis).

2) If our concept was the same, then you would see Sunnis practicing taqiyyah in Iran, Yemen and even the secular states.  Heck, most of us live in the west where they are practically outlawing Islam and we still don't hide what we believe.

3) Shi'as believe that Taqiyyah is an asl in their madhhab which cannot be left until the Madhi comes.  Meaning, you cannot leave taqiyyah as it is a fundamental part of the faith.  However, Sunnis do leave taqiyyah even when their lives is at stake.  Take Ahmad bin Hanbal as a perfect example.  During his time, the government was persecuting the Sunni scholars and forcing them to adopt the views of the Mu'tazilah.  Most of our scholars in Baghdad (where this fitnah was happening) decided to keep quite on the issue.  They didn't public come out and state that they believed the Qur'an was created; but they didn't come out openly and say they didn't either.  Imam Ahmad رحمه الله decided that he wasn't going to hid his belief because he felt the VIEWS OF AHL AS-SUNNAH WOULD BE LOST IF HE PRACTICED TAQIYYAH!!  How different is this from the Shi'i view?

والله تعالى أعلى وأعلم
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Rationalist on April 08, 2015, 02:46:04 AM
 They lie to promote their sect.

Here is a transcript between a 12er and myself.

Me
u do taqiyyah pretending to like the first 2 calipahs

Twelver
yes diplomacy

Me
bro don't make taqiyyah an excuse for lying

Twelver
i cant say bad things about them
openly

Me
i don't want your diplomacy

Twelver
this is what we believe

Me
i even respect yassir habib

Twelver
to avoid fitna

Me
so why do u it online
that's in public
u just do it because u don't want people to attack ur sect
bro a lie is a lie
u will have to answer for that
nobody is going to kill u online

Twelver
i dont want people to attack my Imams

Me
well that's why u became a coward
and pretend to be a sunni
is that what the true companions of imam ali did ?
the  narration on that
that for death not for deception
u are not being killed right now

Twelver
we are not deceiving anyone

Me
yes u are

Twelver
why should i say bad things about Umar openly

Me
don't pretend u are sunni
and don't pretend u care about first 2 calipahs
if u are afraid people will attack u
then just don't say things which will cause that
u don't have to say i respect the first 2
when u don't
and this exactly why i respect yassir habib

Twelver
yassir al habib goes against our teachings dude
taqiyya is necessary
he called Ayesha a prostitute

Me
but don't except me to trust u
when u make empty claims

Twelver
is that ok?

Me
well al khoei permits the slandering of the companions
and tafsir al qummis says
that she had an affair with Talha

Twelver
u know what ur talking

Me
no his claims are from your own books

Twelver
that is weak
daif

Me
how do u know ?
everybody knows that
not according to the Shi'achat admin


Twelver
he is a fool
yassir
taking all the narration

Me
so what about Naskhawani ?
he takes weak narrations too
he said the mahdi will be assassinated by a Jewish women

Twelver
hmm
that is a weak narration

Me
its not even weak
Its a story without a chain

Twelver
No doubt she is bad but not a prostitute, this is way too far
it doesn't even have a chain

Me
ok
so again is nakshawani can be respected
why can't yassir al habib
in fact even shaykh mufid quotes a story
where it has no chains
yet he is biggest scholar in your school

Twelver
hmmm
i wonder why u guys support a slanderer like him
cause he doesn't do taqiyyah
he is paid by Mi6
that's propoganda

Me
is the Shi'achat paid by them too ?

Twelver
The admin does not talk crap like him

Me
he supported the narration
about Ayesha and Talha
on top that al khoie says it encouraged 12ers to slander the companions

'Twever'
they are going by logic

Me
ok then
yassir al habib isn't wrong in his representation
sometimes i need to see how the 12er shia think in their hearts
which they disguise by taqiyyah
and yassir habib helps me there

Twelver
this is the logic
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 08, 2015, 02:54:54 AM
You left out his name "*****" in the last couple of lines by mistake : p
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Rationalist on April 08, 2015, 04:36:06 AM
Edit it out for me. This is the taqiyyah I would like to apply for him, since he lives in a Sunni  majority country and pretends he is a Hanafi. Yet at the same time he slanders Abu Hanifa. But still lets protect his identity. 
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 08, 2015, 04:49:47 AM
no matter how good someone is at lying, it will be revealed one way or another :D
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 08, 2015, 10:43:29 AM
Gentlemen it doesn't matter if it is me, you or anyone else, rather than having and immature discussion, by contibuting towards that discussion with a childish or child like response, why not have a discussion with sense and logic based on reality and facts???

So let me start off,

What is the difinition of Taqeyya??? What does it mean??? And can someone give me an example of it and then lets compare it to lying.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 08, 2015, 11:11:57 AM
Mr Ameen Bot, try answering this one (http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/ali-ra-gave-his-daughter-to-umar-ra/msg5617/#new) before you get involve in this thread
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 08, 2015, 07:12:08 PM
Gentlemen it doesn't matter if it is me, you or anyone else, rather than having and immature discussion, by contibuting towards that discussion with a childish or child like response, why not have a discussion with sense and logic based on reality and facts???

So let me start off,

What is the difinition of Taqeyya??? What does it mean??? And can someone give me an example of it and then lets compare it to lying.

We already started off بارك الله فيك.  I would love to see if you agree with my explanation of the difference between the Sunni and the Shi'i view of taqiyyah.  I would love you to focus especially on how taqiyyah is an Asl (foundation) of Shi'ism, while merely it is something that is allowed in mainstream Islam.  I would love for you to also focus on the difference between Ahmad ibn Hanbal abandoning taqiyyah when he felt that it would have a negative effect on the Deen to hide is opinion, and contrast that with your sects' views about how the Imams hid their views, and how that has led to the deviation of 90% of the Ummah (according to your view of course).
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Rationalist on April 09, 2015, 01:53:39 AM
Gentlemen it doesn't matter if it is me, you or anyone else, rather than having and immature discussion, by contibuting towards that discussion with a childish or child like response, why not have a discussion with sense and logic based on reality and facts???

So let me start off,

What is the difinition of Taqeyya??? What does it mean??? And can someone give me an example of it and then lets compare it to lying.

Start a new topic on that. On this thread we are discussing how the "Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying"
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 09, 2015, 03:51:27 PM
Why should I start a new topic on this??? When I was asked about evidence on the marriage of Imam Askari (11th Shia Imama) on the thread "Ali gave his daughter to Umar", why didn't you say anything then??? Why didn't you step forward, be a man that you are and put forward your principal by saying to brother Hani that, you need to start a separate thread and ask him there??? It's always double standards with you lovely gentlemen, isn't it??? There no such thing as single standards, equal opportunity or justice and fairness, when it comes to your kind. This is why you desparately struggle to explain and justify anything.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 09, 2015, 04:03:18 PM
Shias shouldn't be complaining why their Taqeyya is considered lying. Hey, they shouldn't be complaining about anything when it comes to your kind. They should know that you have nothing better to do than to start a thread based on accusations and run off then strat another thread based on another accusation and then run off again with another one.

This has become your way of life since you never had the ability to talk about and promote your Aqeedah. When you don't have this then the only means of your survival and consuming your time is to raise suspicion and cast doubt upon the Shias.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Furkan on April 09, 2015, 04:25:44 PM
^ So rebelious ::)
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 12:24:21 AM
^ So rebelious ::)

You mean,

How accurate and how true!

I know it is difficult to come out of you, so let me say it for you.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 10, 2015, 12:32:20 AM
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 12:41:56 AM
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.

Which Imam are you talking about and which story are you mentioning?!!
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Rationalist on April 10, 2015, 12:59:29 AM
Why should I start a new topic on this??? When I was asked about evidence on the marriage of Imam Askari (11th Shia Imama) on the thread "Ali gave his daughter to Umar", why didn't you say anything then??? Why didn't you step forward, be a man that you are and put forward your principal by saying to brother Hani that, you need to start a separate thread and ask him there??? It's always double standards with you lovely gentlemen, isn't it??? There no such thing as single standards, equal opportunity or justice and fairness, when it comes to your kind. This is why you desparately struggle to explain and justify anything.

Why didn't you complain? Can you not stand up for yourself ? Remember the topic about went off by discussing bastards and products of Muta, it was closed when you complained. So your right were protected.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Rationalist on April 10, 2015, 01:00:53 AM

This has become your way of life since you never had the ability to talk about and promote your Aqeedah. When you don't have this then the only means of your survival and consuming your time is to raise suspicion and cast doubt upon the Shias.

There is a reason why this site is called twelvershia.net. Has it not processed in your head ? Are you still recovering from an injury caused by mattam ?
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 01:21:10 AM
You certainly don't do Matham, so where did you get your injury from that you can't seem to get over it??? It's not about standing up for yourself, it's about pointing out the double standards that people have here. If I go off topic or you want me to start another thread for something then, why do you turn a blind eye if it is one of you or your side kicks??? This is what it's all about. What have you achieved so far??? Have you managed to convince people about Shiaism and how many have you converted??? So what's your latest figures??? Or is it failure from the beginning till the end??? Try to be civilised and go for an academic discussion rather than sarcasm and slander. But it seems to me it is beyond your ability, otherwise I wouldn't have to tell and point it out to you.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Furkan on April 10, 2015, 01:24:37 AM
Hhahahha, I like this.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 10, 2015, 01:26:51 AM
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.

Which Imam are you talking about and which story are you mentioning?!!

[From Zurarah ibn A’ayun: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]
source: al-Kafi 1/65.

Note: the bold part is why i believe shia imam with their taqiya is also the imam of misguidance
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 01:50:00 AM
Mr Ameen Bot, so how do you explain the incident where imam told his 3 different students/followers conflicting answers which made them confused? Imam is suppose to guide them, but he confused & misguided them. If that is not lying, what is it? Please explain.

Which Imam are you talking about and which story are you mentioning?!!

[From Zurarah ibn A’ayun: I asked Imam al-Baqir (as) a question so the Imam gave me the answer then another man came and asked the same question so the Imam gave him a different answer, then another one came and asked about it so the Imam gave him a completely different answer than both of us. when both men left I asked the Imam: “O son of Rassul Allah, two men from ‘Iraq and from your Shia came to ask you but you gave each of them different answers.” He replied: “O Zurarah, this is good for us so that we may remain safer because if you all agree on this then the people will believe in it and they would be guided to us but we will not remain for long.”

Later I said to his son al-Sadiq (as): “Your Shia always walk away from you with different opinions and answers” so he gave me the same reply as his father.]
source: al-Kafi 1/65.

Note: the bold part is why i believe shia imam with their taqiya is also the imam of misguidance

So what was the question and what was the reply??? No base here and nothing makes any sense. Do you believe in such silly made up stories, with no head and no tail??? It doesn't make any sense. Anyone can make rubbish up like this without any base what so ever. And stupid are those who believe and or mention such stuff without examining and thinking about it. Give me something that has a solid base and has to do with sense and logic.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 10, 2015, 02:18:38 AM
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 02:32:04 AM
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 10, 2015, 02:40:28 AM
You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

We do NOT believe that A LOT of our narrations are weak that are found in our authentic books, بارك الله فيك.

When we are presented with a narration from our most authentic books that is weak or is difficult for us (as individuals, not as an Ummah) to explain, our first reaction isn't to say:

Quote
Do you believe in such silly made up stories, with no head and no tail??? It doesn't make any sense. Anyone can make rubbish up like this without any base what so ever. And stupid are those who believe and or mention such stuff without examining and thinking about it. Give me something that has a solid base and has to do with sense and logic.

I am giving you sincere advice as your Muslim brother; you don't know what is being discussed and you are in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 10, 2015, 02:41:32 AM
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 02:58:47 AM
You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

We do NOT believe that A LOT of our narrations are weak that are found in our authentic books, بارك الله فيك.

When we are presented with a narration from our most authentic books that is weak or is difficult for us (as individuals, not as an Ummah) to explain, our first reaction isn't to say:

Quote
Do you believe in such silly made up stories, with no head and no tail??? It doesn't make any sense. Anyone can make rubbish up like this without any base what so ever. And stupid are those who believe and or mention such stuff without examining and thinking about it. Give me something that has a solid base and has to do with sense and logic.

I am giving you sincere advice as your Muslim brother; you don't know what is being discussed and you are in WAY OVER YOUR HEAD.

Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 03:00:07 AM
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D

No they didn't. You're just blowing hot air now. You need to learn about Shiaism and also Islam.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 10, 2015, 03:33:03 AM
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D

No they didn't. You're just blowing hot air now. You need to learn about Shiaism and also Islam.

Shia scholars dont think Zurara was a close companion of the imam who narrated many authentic shia ahadith?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha wait wait

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha stop it

hahahahahahahaha Amen Bot
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Rationalist on April 10, 2015, 06:07:25 AM
You certainly don't do Matham, so where did you get your injury from that you can't seem to get over it???
Here is the where I got it from.


Quote
It's not about standing up for yourself, it's about pointing out the double standards that people have here. If I go off topic or you want me to start another thread for something then, why do you turn a blind eye if it is one of you or your side kicks???
The reason is you turn a blind eye when I criticize Iran. However, when it comes to the sahaba, the hatred you have against their mistakes is unmatched.

Quote
This is what it's all about. What have you achieved so far??? Have you managed to convince people about Shiaism and how many have you converted??? So what's your latest figures??? Or is it failure from the beginning till the end??? Try to be civilised and go for an academic discussion rather than sarcasm and slander. But it seems to me it is beyond your ability, otherwise I wouldn't have to tell and point it out to you.
I never said 12ers are kaffirs. In fact unlike your sect, I don't think only a group of people can qualify as momins. My goal here is to point out where 12ers are wrong. Its up to them to accept the criticism or be sensitive like the Yahood.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: MuslimK on April 10, 2015, 04:57:35 PM
It is not lying, it is worse than lying especially when their supposed Imams, who were supposedly appointed by Allah to guide the people, use Taqqiyah. Their Imam's Taqqiyah is lying upon Allah and the Messenger, concealing the truth and misguiding the people.

Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 05:10:43 PM
i agree with you Ameen Bot. Shia ahadith & Zurarah are rubbish :D

But if you agree those shia authentic narrations are rubbish, why are you still a shia?

You believe a lot of your narrations are weak, false, fabricated, exaggerated etc then why do you still call those books authentic???

Ameen Bot, that is shia narration!!! :D

The answer to your question,

Because Shiaism is not based and isn't dependent on those narrations. You need to learn a lot and get to know more about Shiaism rather than gossip and rumours and those lies you are told about Shias.

Well, looks like all shia scholars disagree with you and based their religion & also took many narrations from Zurara. You are right though, Zurara is a liar, fabricator, extremist. Please create your own new belief and abandon him :D

No they didn't. You're just blowing hot air now. You need to learn about Shiaism and also Islam.

Shia scholars dont think Zurara was a close companion of the imam who narrated many authentic shia ahadith?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha wait wait

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha stop it

hahahahahahahaha Amen Bot

Do you believe in every single thing that is written in your books???? Do you believe in every single thing that any Ahle Sunnah scholar says???? Just apply the same thinking and rules on us that you apply and seem fit for yourself. It's just as simple as that!
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 05:17:39 PM
You said,

"The reason is you turn a blind eye when I criticize Iran. However, when it comes to the sahaba, the hatred you have against their mistakes is unmatched",

I don't turn a blind eye when you criticise Iran. My point is that you only criticise Iran and no one else and you never compliment Iran. This is exactly my point. Balance the argument and equalise it.

Please do point out where the 12rs are wrong. But don't just leave it there. Also point out where they are right. And also point out where the Ahle Sunnah are wrong and where Sahaba went wrong. Again balance the argument and make the discussion fair. Not too much to ask for, is it??!
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 05:20:59 PM
It is not lying, it is worse than lying especially when their supposed Imams, who were supposedly appointed by Allah to guide the people, use Taqqiyah. Their Imam's Taqqiyah is lying upon Allah and the Messenger, concealing the truth and misguiding the people.



And you honestly believe that the Imams would do that??? When you get hold of any material, don't you examine it??? Don't you look in to it??? Whether it makes any sense or not??? If Shias put forward material from your books and statements of your scholars, you are very quick to reject and condemn it, why don't you apply the same rules here??? Or at least think about it.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 10, 2015, 05:32:15 PM
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 05:59:24 PM
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.

Where did I criticise Umar Ibne Khattab??? And for what??? Refresh my memory please!
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 06:02:10 PM
It doesn't matter which companion it is, what ever they are accused of and if they are accused of something, I will look in to it with the same principals, understanding and rules. Can you do that??? This is how it should be. Have I said something wrong here??? Or may be you need to get on track.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Furkan on April 10, 2015, 06:08:17 PM
Hani, just ban him, he spams.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 10, 2015, 06:17:01 PM
Hani, just ban him, he spams.

What do you mean??? Care to explain yourself???
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 10, 2015, 06:56:24 PM
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

While your mud slinging is far more representative of you, in Ahl as-Sunnah we don't accept narrations based on our ideology; heck our scholars narrated ahadeeth from all kinds of sects, including believe it or not, Shia.  We base our authentication on five condition, بارك الله فيك:

1) A connection chain of narrators.
2) Everyone in the chain is upright (whether they are from a sect or not).
3) Everyone in the chain is considered strong in their memory and relaying of the text.  If they are the hadeeth is considered Saheeh, if they are considered a lower level the scholars would lessed the hadeeth to the status of hassan.
4) It is not Shaath, or an outlier report.  Meaning, we might get 5 reports all saying the same thing and one report saying something different.  Even if that report has an authentic chain, it would be weakened because of this contradiction.
5) That there are not other irregularities that would cause a report to be inauthentic.

Now I ask you brother Ameen, how do your scholars authenticate reports?
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 10, 2015, 07:05:35 PM
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.

Where did I criticise Umar Ibne Khattab??? And for what??? Refresh my memory please!

Remember that topic where `Umar punished Mu`awiyah? You implied that `Umar was not being just and fair.

So now I expect you to criticize `Ali's injustice, for fairness and equality.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 10, 2015, 07:10:40 PM
What do you mean??? Care to explain yourself???

He means you're a waste of time, and he's right. I would recommend that you stop posting on this forum and simply limit yourself to reading.

Because you're not benefiting anyone, it doesn't seem you're benefiting yourself, nor is your sect even benefiting because you're making them look bad, nor are we benefiting from you since you have no information to contribute.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 10, 2015, 07:51:45 PM
In case Ameen doesn't answer, I found this post on shiachat where we are told how ahadeeth are authenticated according to the Shia.  I know this could've gone in "Funny posts from Shiachat", but I thought it was more appropriate here إن شاء الله:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235029405-did-rasulallah-say-ya-ali-madad/page-2#entry2792462
Quote
Chain of narrators isn't a way of authenticating hadiths. The way to authenticate hadiths is for example if there are two shia hadiths one hadith is saying it is allowed to recite nade ali and the other is saying it is not allowed to recite then you do opposite to what the non SHIAS do.......so therefore nade ali is wajib to recite because sunnis don't believe in it! SIMPLE.....this is the way to authenticate hadiths according to hadiths of imams (as). Not chain of narrators or ilm Al rijjal absolutely no basis for this way of authenticating.

 You are clearly not on my level so I suggest you read a few more books before you even contemplate discussing with me. To you your way to me my way.

That is very insightful, so whatever mainstream Islam teaches, Shi'as are instructed to do the opposite.

Also, I love that blanketed takfeer in the end of his post.  Muslims, Sunni and Shi'a, should be very careful in using that ayah when discussing with other Muslims; remember that the beginning of the Surah is "Say, 'O you disbelievers.'"  Saying "لكم دينكم ولي دين" is for non-Muslims بارك الله فيكم, not for other Muslims
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Furkan on April 10, 2015, 08:03:56 PM
Lol, that quote made me laugh so much.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 10, 2015, 08:31:56 PM
You're clearly not on his level man, he seems like university professor, you have to read fifty more books before addressing him.


So authenticating a Shia narration requires us to go back to Sunni books and see what they think? That's more to do with reconciling than authenticating but whatever floats his ship of Ahlul-Bayt.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Furkan on April 10, 2015, 08:55:52 PM
That qoute from SC is based on a shia naration too actually. HAHA, and the funny thing is, those other SC members are laughing at that method of authentication. I geuss, we have some shia who went against nass.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 10, 2015, 09:01:52 PM
Here's another treasure:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235029405-did-rasulallah-say-ya-ali-madad/page-2#entry2792726
Quote
Imam Ali (as) said seek knowledge even if it's from the tongue of a kafir because knowledge is the treasure of the believer

 Just because if someone is a kafir doesn't mean whatever he says is wrong, for example if in a wahaabis book it says prophet (saw) said be good to your parents.......there's nothing wrong with the hadith is it?
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Furkan on April 10, 2015, 09:06:57 PM
LOL "for example" --> an example of a kafir?! Shiism has proven it's takfeerism AGAIN!
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 10, 2015, 09:57:49 PM
One Shia guy has this written in his profile ((Interests:My lineage is from Imam Sadiq (as)))

Dude! It's been a thousand+ years already, stop boasting about lineage, it means absolutely nothing.

I see they're differing on some poem called "nade ali"

One Shia describes it as "poem of shirk" the other Shia says "it's shirk not to believe in it".

Polar opposites.

Then they discuss whether "Madad" is an Arabic word, let me quote:

"Is "madad" even an Arabic word?"

"i think ``madad`´ is an iranian Word."

"Perhaps it is an farsi word?"

I say, these Shia don't read Qur'an and Hadith to know that it's an Arabic word.

It's in the Qur'an!

يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِخَمْسَةِ آلَافٍ مِّنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ

{your Lord will help(Yumdidkum) you with five thousand angels sweeping on.}

Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 10, 2015, 11:27:21 PM
One Shia guy has this written in his profile ((Interests:My lineage is from Imam Sadiq (as)))

Dude! It's been a thousand+ years already, stop boasting about lineage, it means absolutely nothing.

I see they're differing on some poem called "nade ali"

One Shia describes it as "poem of shirk" the other Shia says "it's shirk not to believe in it".

Polar opposites.

Then they discuss whether "Madad" is an Arabic word, let me quote:

"Is "madad" even an Arabic word?"

"i think ``madad`´ is an iranian Word."

"Perhaps it is an farsi word?"

I say, these Shia don't read Qur'an and Hadith to know that it's an Arabic word.

It's in the Qur'an!

يُمْدِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُم بِخَمْسَةِ آلَافٍ مِّنَ الْمَلَائِكَةِ مُسَوِّمِينَ

{your Lord will help(Yumdidkum) you with five thousand angels sweeping on.}



The question is: will al-sadiq be proud having him as family? :D
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 11, 2015, 12:03:15 AM
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

While your mud slinging is far more representative of you, in Ahl as-Sunnah we don't accept narrations based on our ideology; heck our scholars narrated ahadeeth from all kinds of sects, including believe it or not, Shia.  We base our authentication on five condition, بارك الله فيك:

1) A connection chain of narrators.
2) Everyone in the chain is upright (whether they are from a sect or not).
3) Everyone in the chain is considered strong in their memory and relaying of the text.  If they are the hadeeth is considered Saheeh, if they are considered a lower level the scholars would lessed the hadeeth to the status of hassan.
4) It is not Shaath, or an outlier report.  Meaning, we might get 5 reports all saying the same thing and one report saying something different.  Even if that report has an authentic chain, it would be weakened because of this contradiction.
5) That there are not other irregularities that would cause a report to be inauthentic.

Now I ask you brother Ameen, how do your scholars authenticate reports?

I don't mud sling. Who mud slings is clearly seen on this site. So this is how you authenticate hadiths, narrations and reports. So tell me how do you authenticate Ali's daughters marriage to Umar??? Or would you like me to start a separate thread and ask you there???

Umar asked for Ali's daughter in marriage, now this is what brother Hani mentioned;

Ali sent his daughter with Hassan and Hussain to Umar, he teased her playfully and liked her then the marriage took place.

Now tell me how sickening and ridiculous this sounds. Who were more shameful and pardedar, full of hijab o niqab than Ali and his family. What kind of a father would send his daughter for someone to take a good look at her, tease her playfully and then show his likenes???

I ask everyone on this site who have daughters of marriageable age or when they reach that age and those who don't have daughters but have sisters of marriageable age that, would you marry your daughter/sister in such a baghairath and beh'haya way??? Such a shameless way???

Was this a horse, camel or cow that was sent to Umar for him to take a good look at and play with and tease before acceptance??? To try out??? Was Umar a dirty old flirt that this is how he proceeded when he showed interest in marriage???

This narration about how this marriage was conducted is not just an absolute insult to Ali's ghairath but also an absolute insult and stain to Umar's character and personality. I agree with the Ahle Sunnah that I have approached that this narration is ridiculous.

Gentlemen God has given you Aqal for you to use. Use it and use it well.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 11, 2015, 12:08:22 AM
By the same token, when you -Ameen- criticize `Umar ibn al-Khattab you have to also criticize `Ali ibn abi Talib alongside him, to balance the argument and equalize it.

Where did I criticise Umar Ibne Khattab??? And for what??? Refresh my memory please!

Remember that topic where `Umar punished Mu`awiyah? You implied that `Umar was not being just and fair.

So now I expect you to criticize `Ali's injustice, for fairness and equality.

You put something forward and I questioned you about it. Asked you to look in to it or drew your attention towards it. Now you want me to criticise and condemn Ali???? Over what??? Or you want me to do that just out of the blue??? When are where did I criticise Umar??? You mentioned something and I questioned that incident. I do not recall criticising Umar.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 11, 2015, 12:13:35 AM
What do you mean??? Care to explain yourself???

He means you're a waste of time, and he's right. I would recommend that you stop posting on this forum and simply limit yourself to reading.

Because you're not benefiting anyone, it doesn't seem you're benefiting yourself, nor is your sect even benefiting because you're making them look bad, nor are we benefiting from you since you have no information to contribute.

And who are you or anyone else benefitting??? What, slinging mud on Shias, talking rubbish about Shiaism and dragging and accusing Iran in to everything, who is this benefiting and what are you proving???
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 11, 2015, 01:33:39 AM
Gentlemen God has given you Aqal for you to use. Use it and use it well.

So you are neither going to respond to the topic nor are you going to reply to what I said?

خير إن شاء الله
سلاما
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Rationalist on April 11, 2015, 01:36:06 AM

The question is: will al-sadiq be proud having him as family? :D
The 12ers curse Imam Jafar's son Abdullah. They also say he can't be an Imam because he had flat feet.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Furkan on April 11, 2015, 03:36:15 AM
Lol ^
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 11, 2015, 12:33:42 PM
Ali sent his daughter with Hassan and Hussain to Umar, he teased her playfully and liked her then the marriage took place.

Now tell me how sickening and ridiculous this sounds. Who were more shameful and pardedar, full of hijab o niqab than Ali and his family. What kind of a father would send his daughter for someone to take a good look at her, tease her playfully and then show his likenes???

I ask everyone on this site who have daughters of marriageable age or when they reach that age and those who don't have daughters but have sisters of marriageable age that, would you marry your daughter/sister in such a baghairath and beh'haya way??? Such a shameless way???

They were already married when he did that.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Suleiman on April 11, 2015, 12:41:03 PM
hmmm..

Didn't know Ameen was from Pakistan (or maybe India?)
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Optimus Prime on April 11, 2015, 03:19:39 PM
hmmm..

Didn't know Ameen was from Pakistan (or maybe India?)

Yeah, he is. He has the traits of a typical subcontinental Rafidhi.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Optimus Prime on April 11, 2015, 03:21:44 PM
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

While your mud slinging is far more representative of you, in Ahl as-Sunnah we don't accept narrations based on our ideology; heck our scholars narrated ahadeeth from all kinds of sects, including believe it or not, Shia.  We base our authentication on five condition, بارك الله فيك:

1) A connection chain of narrators.
2) Everyone in the chain is upright (whether they are from a sect or not).
3) Everyone in the chain is considered strong in their memory and relaying of the text.  If they are the hadeeth is considered Saheeh, if they are considered a lower level the scholars would lessed the hadeeth to the status of hassan.
4) It is not Shaath, or an outlier report.  Meaning, we might get 5 reports all saying the same thing and one report saying something different.  Even if that report has an authentic chain, it would be weakened because of this contradiction.
5) That there are not other irregularities that would cause a report to be inauthentic.

Now I ask you brother Ameen, how do your scholars authenticate reports?

I don't mud sling. Who mud slings is clearly seen on this site. So this is how you authenticate hadiths, narrations and reports. So tell me how do you authenticate Ali's daughters marriage to Umar??? Or would you like me to start a separate thread and ask you there???

Umar asked for Ali's daughter in marriage, now this is what brother Hani mentioned;

Ali sent his daughter with Hassan and Hussain to Umar, he teased her playfully and liked her then the marriage took place.

Now tell me how sickening and ridiculous this sounds. Who were more shameful and pardedar, full of hijab o niqab than Ali and his family. What kind of a father would send his daughter for someone to take a good look at her, tease her playfully and then show his likenes???

I ask everyone on this site who have daughters of marriageable age or when they reach that age and those who don't have daughters but have sisters of marriageable age that, would you marry your daughter/sister in such a baghairath and beh'haya way??? Such a shameless way???

Was this a horse, camel or cow that was sent to Umar for him to take a good look at and play with and tease before acceptance??? To try out??? Was Umar a dirty old flirt that this is how he proceeded when he showed interest in marriage???

This narration about how this marriage was conducted is not just an absolute insult to Ali's ghairath but also an absolute insult and stain to Umar's character and personality. I agree with the Ahle Sunnah that I have approached that this narration is ridiculous.

Gentlemen God has given you Aqal for you to use. Use it and use it well.

Maybe the wives of the Prophet (SAW). ;)
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 11, 2015, 03:31:56 PM
Brother Hani, thanks for the info. And gentlemen thank you for all your kind compliments towards me. Much appreciated.

Brother Khaled our criteria and standard for accepting and rejecting Hadiths and narrations is the Quran.

Anything that goes with it, we accept. And anything that goes against it, we reject.

As far as narrators are concerned, one can pick and choose. If something is said that doesn't suit you or you don't like then, you can reject it, like certain brothers of the Ahle Sunnah do.

So this isn't much of a standard for selection of Hadiths and narrations.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 11, 2015, 03:41:49 PM
Let me give you an example. This is off topic so my appologies. But just putting an example forward of how I select hadiths and narrations.

The Hadith which was quoted that the Prophet (pbuh) said,

"We (messengers and prophets) do not leave behind anything for inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purposes only".

Now the Quran is my standard, so what does the Quran say about inheritance and what is the Islamic law about inheritance???

Is there anything, anything at all in the Quran which says or even gives a slight hint that messengers and Prophets are exempt from this part of the Shariath???

 

Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 11, 2015, 03:52:02 PM
Kay I'll just try throwing some Shia narrations on you, tell me if they are authentic according to your methodology:

[Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: “Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin.”]

Shia sources:

1- Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam 4/300, Alistibsar 2/134,
2- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-Shia 9/475,
3- Alhadaeq Alnadhera 13/371,
4- Jamal luddin mentioned it in ‘Fasting of Ashoora page 112,
5- Al-Kashani 7/13
6- Hur in Wasael Al-Shia 7/337

Link for more: http://www.tashayyu.org/hadiths/fasting/recommended-fasts/chapter-20
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 11, 2015, 06:14:15 PM
I will answer that.

We were talking about the Hadith where the Prophet (pbuh) said,

"We Messengers and Prophets do not leave anything behind as inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purpose",

Now hadiths and or narrations are not exactly found in the Quran word to word, otherwise they wouldn't be hadiths and or narrations, infact they would be verses.

Hadiths and narrations must not contradict the Quran. They must not go against the Quran.

As the hadith that I have mentioned, where inheritance law does not apply to any of the Messengers or Prophets, there is no evidence of this in the Quran. Not a slightest hint.

Never mind about this but it also contradicts the Quran. It severly goes against the inheritance law which is clearly mentioned and laid out in the Quran.

We can inherit from out fathers and forefathers but the children of the Messengers can't????

This is how one should do business and get to the bottom of things. It is not difficult but we make it difficult, by not having an wide mind and open heart about issues and matters.

We need to have a clear vision and come out of favourtism and looking and acting according to it.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 11, 2015, 06:26:10 PM
Don't forget to answer the above narration about fasting `Ashura'.

Also I add, we have to reject Hadith-ul-Kisa', since the Qur'an addresses the wives as Ahlul-Bayt as opposed to Ahlul-Kisa'.

Also your methodology fails, since the Hadith of inheritance does not contradict the Qur'an, it simply makes an exception for the Prophet(s). A Hadith making an exception for a general verse is accepted by Shia scholars.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Mythbuster1 on April 11, 2015, 06:44:38 PM
“The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge.” (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)

SHIITE ^^

Messengers and Prophets do not leave anything behind as inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purpose",

SUNNI^^

Both HADITHS from each sect saying the same thing..........so they both contradicting Quran???
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 11, 2015, 07:29:22 PM
Brother Hani, thanks for the info. And gentlemen thank you for all your kind compliments towards me. Much appreciated.

Brother Khaled our criteria and standard for accepting and rejecting Hadiths and narrations is the Quran.

Anything that goes with it, we accept. And anything that goes against it, we reject.

As far as narrators are concerned, one can pick and choose.

Thanks for actually addressing my point, بارك الله فيك.

I hope you rethink your methodology after brother Hani showed you its' weakness.  Also, didn't you see that the scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah also added a fourth and fifth conditions, each dealing with contradictions with that which is more authentic (such as the Qur'an or a mutwaatir hadeeth) or what they call defects, which is a whole science of its own, أحسن الله إليك.  If you were to actually read the works of our muhaditheen رحمهم الله, you'd be very proud of the legacy started by our Muslims scholars, هدانا الله وإياك.

As far as you saying:

Quote
If something is said that doesn't suit you or you don't like then, you can reject it, like certain brothers of the Ahle Sunnah do.

I'm starting to think you don't know who Ahl as-Sunnah are.  Ahl as-Sunnah are the scholars of this Ummah, not the laymen or just anyone that happens to be non-12er Imami.  Yes its true, the Ummah is divided into 12er vs Ismaili vs the rest of the Muslim Ummah, I'm not here to deny that; but just because someone is from the non-12er/Ismaili part of the Muslim Ummah, doesn't necessarily mean that they employ the methodology of Ahl as-Sunnah.  Yes, it is true that liberals and people like that reject and accept hadeeth based on their whims and desires, but that is not the methodolgy of Ahl as-Sunnah.  Our methodology (i.e. what you will be taught at any Sunni seminary/university) is what I posted, والله أعلم.

Quote
So this isn't much of a standard for selection of Hadiths and narrations.

While I agree with you that it isn't; I want to give you the glad tidings that the 12er science of hadeeth is a lot more complicated than what you posted.
 
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Khaled on April 11, 2015, 07:42:43 PM
"We (messengers and prophets) do not leave behind anything for inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purposes only".

Now the Quran is my standard, so what does the Quran say about inheritance and what is the Islamic law about inheritance???

Is there anything, anything at all in the Quran which says or even gives a slight hint that messengers and Prophets are exempt from this part of the Shariath???

See akhi, it would really benefit you to get some Islamic knowledge before talk about topics that are beyond your range, هدانا الله وإياك.  What you are discussing has to do with the science of Usool al-Fiqh, not the science of Hadeeth.  The verses you are referring to are general or عام, while the hadeeth you posted is specific or خاص.  Therefore, the general statements found in the Qur'an regarding inheritance, are specified when the hadeeth tells us that this rules are for everyone except Prophets.  Much like how the Qur'an general limits that amount of wives a man can have at one time to four, but the ahadeeth specify that this general limitation is specified for the Ummah excluding the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

I'll give you another example that you may like إن شاء الله.  The famous "Ayat at-Tatheer," in this verse, Allah used the phrase "Ahl al-Bayt" which is very general.  However, there is the famous "Hadeeth al-Kisa" in which the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم specifies them to five people only.  This would an example where the Shi'a have taken a general verse and used a specifying hadeeth to explain it.  Based on your methodology and the example you gave, this hadeeth would be weak.  Notice, our scholars did not weaken this hadeeth as it met our five conditions; however, my point is that it does not meet your condition, and therefore, you must reject it as weak as there is nothing in the Qur'an that says Ahl al-Bayt is only restricted to your cousin if he marries your daughter and only their first two born sons.  Actually, Ahl al-Bayt in the Qur'an only refers to the person's wife whenever it is used.  Therefore, I can turn the question back on you and say: "is there anything, anything at all in the Quran which says or even gives a slight hint that a person's wife is not part of his Ahl al-Bayt?"

Also, I just wanted to comment one more time on this statement:

Quote
If something is said that doesn't suit you or you don't like then, you can reject it,

So are you saying that if Mu'aawiyah رضي الله عنه heard a hadeeth praising Ahl al-Bayt, he can reject it because it doesn't suit him or he doesn't it like it??  If that's the case then how can you get mad at him?
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Ameen on April 12, 2015, 02:04:48 PM
Ok brother Hani, the answer to your question, you said;

"Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: “Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin",

First of all Shia do not fast on the day of Ashura. Secondly the Shia Imams have said one thing and I will look up the source when I get a chance but this is what they said,

"A lot of things (narrations) will be connected to us, many things (narrations) will be linked to us and they will be put forward on our behalf or as they are from us but they will not be from us. In fact they will have nothing to do with us. They will be false, either fabricated or exaggerated, so be aware of this",

When the Imams were asked, "So what do we do? Or how do we know?", the Imams replied by saying;

"Use the Quran as your measurement scale. Bring them along the Quran. And if they are according to the Quran then, accept them. But if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, throw them against the wall",

These were the words used, "if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, THROW THOSE NARRATIONS AGAINST THE WALL".

For your information Shias don't fast or keep a fast during the day of Ashura. Because for fast you have to do Niyath and there has to be a Sehri and an Aftari. So they don't fast on the day of Ashura. I will answer all your questions and brotherly concerns one by one. I hope nobody, no one tries to derail this process.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 12, 2015, 02:23:55 PM
I hope nobody, no one tries to derail this process.

what a bloody dimwit, youve derailed my thread and now you ask others not to do the same? What a pea for brain.
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hadrami on April 12, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

That shia narration where imam lied to his own companions/followers is authentic. Yes, its a stupid hadith, but then again your whole belief is idiotic, so what do you expect.

Rather than reject that hadith, reject that zurara is thr main narrator of shia hadith, why dont you just reject your stupid religion altogether. Reject all zurara narration and reject all your scholars verdict and start from scratch. You love to tell people to have an open heart & stick to facts, why dont you practice what you preach for once Mr Bot?
Title: Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
Post by: Hani on April 12, 2015, 03:58:42 PM
Ok brother Hani, the answer to your question, you said;

"Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: “Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin",

First of all Shia do not fast on the day of Ashura. Secondly the Shia Imams have said one thing and I will look up the source when I get a chance but this is what they said,

"A lot of things (narrations) will be connected to us, many things (narrations) will be linked to us and they will be put forward on our behalf or as they are from us but they will not be from us. In fact they will have nothing to do with us. They will be false, either fabricated or exaggerated, so be aware of this",

When the Imams were asked, "So what do we do? Or how do we know?", the Imams replied by saying;

"Use the Quran as your measurement scale. Bring them along the Quran. And if they are according to the Quran then, accept them. But if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, throw them against the wall",

These were the words used, "if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, THROW THOSE NARRATIONS AGAINST THE WALL".

For your information Shias don't fast or keep a fast during the day of Ashura. Because for fast you have to do Niyath and there has to be a Sehri and an Aftari. So they don't fast on the day of Ashura. I will answer all your questions and brotherly concerns one by one. I hope nobody, no one tries to derail this process.

Dude! I asked you is it authentic or not according to your Qur'anic methodology!! You just rejected a Hadith by your Imams without even showing that it contradicts the Qur'an!!! What the heck is wrong with you?

Then you said: "Because for fast you have to do Niyath and there has to be a Sehri and an Aftari."

Who told you not to have "Sehri" and "Aftari"? There's nothing to stop you from having them.

You just flushed your own Qur'anic methodology by rejecting the words of your Imams even when they didn't conflict with the Qur'an.