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Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying

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Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2015, 01:31:56 PM »
Brother Hani, thanks for the info. And gentlemen thank you for all your kind compliments towards me. Much appreciated.

Brother Khaled our criteria and standard for accepting and rejecting Hadiths and narrations is the Quran.

Anything that goes with it, we accept. And anything that goes against it, we reject.

As far as narrators are concerned, one can pick and choose. If something is said that doesn't suit you or you don't like then, you can reject it, like certain brothers of the Ahle Sunnah do.

So this isn't much of a standard for selection of Hadiths and narrations.

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2015, 01:41:49 PM »
Let me give you an example. This is off topic so my appologies. But just putting an example forward of how I select hadiths and narrations.

The Hadith which was quoted that the Prophet (pbuh) said,

"We (messengers and prophets) do not leave behind anything for inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purposes only".

Now the Quran is my standard, so what does the Quran say about inheritance and what is the Islamic law about inheritance???

Is there anything, anything at all in the Quran which says or even gives a slight hint that messengers and Prophets are exempt from this part of the Shariath???

 


Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2015, 01:52:02 PM »
Kay I'll just try throwing some Shia narrations on you, tell me if they are authentic according to your methodology:

[Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: “Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin.”]

Shia sources:

1- Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam 4/300, Alistibsar 2/134,
2- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-Shia 9/475,
3- Alhadaeq Alnadhera 13/371,
4- Jamal luddin mentioned it in ‘Fasting of Ashoora page 112,
5- Al-Kashani 7/13
6- Hur in Wasael Al-Shia 7/337

Link for more: http://www.tashayyu.org/hadiths/fasting/recommended-fasts/chapter-20
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 01:56:34 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2015, 04:14:15 PM »
I will answer that.

We were talking about the Hadith where the Prophet (pbuh) said,

"We Messengers and Prophets do not leave anything behind as inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purpose",

Now hadiths and or narrations are not exactly found in the Quran word to word, otherwise they wouldn't be hadiths and or narrations, infact they would be verses.

Hadiths and narrations must not contradict the Quran. They must not go against the Quran.

As the hadith that I have mentioned, where inheritance law does not apply to any of the Messengers or Prophets, there is no evidence of this in the Quran. Not a slightest hint.

Never mind about this but it also contradicts the Quran. It severly goes against the inheritance law which is clearly mentioned and laid out in the Quran.

We can inherit from out fathers and forefathers but the children of the Messengers can't????

This is how one should do business and get to the bottom of things. It is not difficult but we make it difficult, by not having an wide mind and open heart about issues and matters.

We need to have a clear vision and come out of favourtism and looking and acting according to it.

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2015, 04:26:10 PM »
Don't forget to answer the above narration about fasting `Ashura'.

Also I add, we have to reject Hadith-ul-Kisa', since the Qur'an addresses the wives as Ahlul-Bayt as opposed to Ahlul-Kisa'.

Also your methodology fails, since the Hadith of inheritance does not contradict the Qur'an, it simply makes an exception for the Prophet(s). A Hadith making an exception for a general verse is accepted by Shia scholars.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Mythbuster1

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2015, 04:44:38 PM »
“The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge.” (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)

SHIITE ^^

Messengers and Prophets do not leave anything behind as inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purpose",

SUNNI^^

Both HADITHS from each sect saying the same thing..........so they both contradicting Quran???

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2015, 05:29:22 PM »
Brother Hani, thanks for the info. And gentlemen thank you for all your kind compliments towards me. Much appreciated.

Brother Khaled our criteria and standard for accepting and rejecting Hadiths and narrations is the Quran.

Anything that goes with it, we accept. And anything that goes against it, we reject.

As far as narrators are concerned, one can pick and choose.

Thanks for actually addressing my point, بارك الله فيك.

I hope you rethink your methodology after brother Hani showed you its' weakness.  Also, didn't you see that the scholars of Ahl as-Sunnah also added a fourth and fifth conditions, each dealing with contradictions with that which is more authentic (such as the Qur'an or a mutwaatir hadeeth) or what they call defects, which is a whole science of its own, أحسن الله إليك.  If you were to actually read the works of our muhaditheen رحمهم الله, you'd be very proud of the legacy started by our Muslims scholars, هدانا الله وإياك.

As far as you saying:

Quote
If something is said that doesn't suit you or you don't like then, you can reject it, like certain brothers of the Ahle Sunnah do.

I'm starting to think you don't know who Ahl as-Sunnah are.  Ahl as-Sunnah are the scholars of this Ummah, not the laymen or just anyone that happens to be non-12er Imami.  Yes its true, the Ummah is divided into 12er vs Ismaili vs the rest of the Muslim Ummah, I'm not here to deny that; but just because someone is from the non-12er/Ismaili part of the Muslim Ummah, doesn't necessarily mean that they employ the methodology of Ahl as-Sunnah.  Yes, it is true that liberals and people like that reject and accept hadeeth based on their whims and desires, but that is not the methodolgy of Ahl as-Sunnah.  Our methodology (i.e. what you will be taught at any Sunni seminary/university) is what I posted, والله أعلم.

Quote
So this isn't much of a standard for selection of Hadiths and narrations.

While I agree with you that it isn't; I want to give you the glad tidings that the 12er science of hadeeth is a lot more complicated than what you posted.
 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 05:31:48 PM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2015, 05:42:43 PM »
"We (messengers and prophets) do not leave behind anything for inheritance, anything to be inherited. What we leave behind is for charity and charitable purposes only".

Now the Quran is my standard, so what does the Quran say about inheritance and what is the Islamic law about inheritance???

Is there anything, anything at all in the Quran which says or even gives a slight hint that messengers and Prophets are exempt from this part of the Shariath???

See akhi, it would really benefit you to get some Islamic knowledge before talk about topics that are beyond your range, هدانا الله وإياك.  What you are discussing has to do with the science of Usool al-Fiqh, not the science of Hadeeth.  The verses you are referring to are general or عام, while the hadeeth you posted is specific or خاص.  Therefore, the general statements found in the Qur'an regarding inheritance, are specified when the hadeeth tells us that this rules are for everyone except Prophets.  Much like how the Qur'an general limits that amount of wives a man can have at one time to four, but the ahadeeth specify that this general limitation is specified for the Ummah excluding the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

I'll give you another example that you may like إن شاء الله.  The famous "Ayat at-Tatheer," in this verse, Allah used the phrase "Ahl al-Bayt" which is very general.  However, there is the famous "Hadeeth al-Kisa" in which the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم specifies them to five people only.  This would an example where the Shi'a have taken a general verse and used a specifying hadeeth to explain it.  Based on your methodology and the example you gave, this hadeeth would be weak.  Notice, our scholars did not weaken this hadeeth as it met our five conditions; however, my point is that it does not meet your condition, and therefore, you must reject it as weak as there is nothing in the Qur'an that says Ahl al-Bayt is only restricted to your cousin if he marries your daughter and only their first two born sons.  Actually, Ahl al-Bayt in the Qur'an only refers to the person's wife whenever it is used.  Therefore, I can turn the question back on you and say: "is there anything, anything at all in the Quran which says or even gives a slight hint that a person's wife is not part of his Ahl al-Bayt?"

Also, I just wanted to comment one more time on this statement:

Quote
If something is said that doesn't suit you or you don't like then, you can reject it,

So are you saying that if Mu'aawiyah رضي الله عنه heard a hadeeth praising Ahl al-Bayt, he can reject it because it doesn't suit him or he doesn't it like it??  If that's the case then how can you get mad at him?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 05:46:02 PM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Ameen

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2015, 12:04:48 PM »
Ok brother Hani, the answer to your question, you said;

"Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: “Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin",

First of all Shia do not fast on the day of Ashura. Secondly the Shia Imams have said one thing and I will look up the source when I get a chance but this is what they said,

"A lot of things (narrations) will be connected to us, many things (narrations) will be linked to us and they will be put forward on our behalf or as they are from us but they will not be from us. In fact they will have nothing to do with us. They will be false, either fabricated or exaggerated, so be aware of this",

When the Imams were asked, "So what do we do? Or how do we know?", the Imams replied by saying;

"Use the Quran as your measurement scale. Bring them along the Quran. And if they are according to the Quran then, accept them. But if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, throw them against the wall",

These were the words used, "if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, THROW THOSE NARRATIONS AGAINST THE WALL".

For your information Shias don't fast or keep a fast during the day of Ashura. Because for fast you have to do Niyath and there has to be a Sehri and an Aftari. So they don't fast on the day of Ashura. I will answer all your questions and brotherly concerns one by one. I hope nobody, no one tries to derail this process.

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2015, 12:23:55 PM »
I hope nobody, no one tries to derail this process.

what a bloody dimwit, youve derailed my thread and now you ask others not to do the same? What a pea for brain.

Hadrami

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2015, 12:36:26 PM »
Everything that goes against your mind set and planned ideology is weak, false etc. You decide if it is weak and your criteria for weakness and or falsehood??? Well you don't have one. You need to protect Sakeefa, justify Khilafath through what ever and which ever means necessary and certain companions just didn't get anything wrong, even when they were companions and especially when they became Khalifs. But certain companions and members of the Ahlul Baith did get it wrong. Well this just sums you exactly up!

That shia narration where imam lied to his own companions/followers is authentic. Yes, its a stupid hadith, but then again your whole belief is idiotic, so what do you expect.

Rather than reject that hadith, reject that zurara is thr main narrator of shia hadith, why dont you just reject your stupid religion altogether. Reject all zurara narration and reject all your scholars verdict and start from scratch. You love to tell people to have an open heart & stick to facts, why dont you practice what you preach for once Mr Bot?

Hani

Re: Shia complain why their taqiya is considered lying
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2015, 01:58:42 PM »
Ok brother Hani, the answer to your question, you said;

"Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: “Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin",

First of all Shia do not fast on the day of Ashura. Secondly the Shia Imams have said one thing and I will look up the source when I get a chance but this is what they said,

"A lot of things (narrations) will be connected to us, many things (narrations) will be linked to us and they will be put forward on our behalf or as they are from us but they will not be from us. In fact they will have nothing to do with us. They will be false, either fabricated or exaggerated, so be aware of this",

When the Imams were asked, "So what do we do? Or how do we know?", the Imams replied by saying;

"Use the Quran as your measurement scale. Bring them along the Quran. And if they are according to the Quran then, accept them. But if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, throw them against the wall",

These were the words used, "if they contradict the Quran, if they go against the Quran then, THROW THOSE NARRATIONS AGAINST THE WALL".

For your information Shias don't fast or keep a fast during the day of Ashura. Because for fast you have to do Niyath and there has to be a Sehri and an Aftari. So they don't fast on the day of Ashura. I will answer all your questions and brotherly concerns one by one. I hope nobody, no one tries to derail this process.

Dude! I asked you is it authentic or not according to your Qur'anic methodology!! You just rejected a Hadith by your Imams without even showing that it contradicts the Qur'an!!! What the heck is wrong with you?

Then you said: "Because for fast you have to do Niyath and there has to be a Sehri and an Aftari."

Who told you not to have "Sehri" and "Aftari"? There's nothing to stop you from having them.

You just flushed your own Qur'anic methodology by rejecting the words of your Imams even when they didn't conflict with the Qur'an.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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