12er Scholar Jafar Subhani Fails to Respond to the Zaidi Challenge

[Rationalist]

I got this video forwarded from a Zaidi brother, and he explained  how the 12er Ayatollah failed to answer a question presented by the Zaidi Scholar.

My Zaidi friend informed me that Iran has offered free visas, schooling to the Zaidi Yemenis to come to Iran and slowly convert into 12er Shiaism. In the video above a Zaidi converted to  a 12er but was not satisfied with the answer of Al-Subhani. The ex-Zaidi presented a question from the Zaidi Imam Al-Masnoor bi Allah about the sanad of 12 Imams reported by Jabir bin Sorah



For those who don't understand Arabic here is transcript of the video above with my friend's commentary.


The person who asked was Zaidi student (not scholar), he converted from Zaidi to 12r.

He asked one of the biggest Ja'fari scholars about some questions that Zaidis asked the 12r about.

He said:
Zaidis said:

- Ja'farism has narration about the 12 Imams and but this narration is not collective-transmitted narration. And there is  a principle in religion which says "anything important should be well-known to make Hujjah on all people"??!!

- After proving that narration is not collective-transmitted and it is mono-transmitted, it should be known that the narrator of it is Jaber ibn Sumrah who is untrustworthy by All Ummah even the Ja'farism itself.??!!

- Narrations from   Sunnah's books about 12 Caliphs did not mention the names and time or (how will be the time between Imam and the next…)??!!

- If there is a narration, then what Ja'farism believe that Imams should have Karamah (miracles) in order to the true Imam??!!

- If there is a collective-narration, then why Shi'a asked their Imam about the name of the next Imam??!!

- Why are Ja'faris the only ones who narrated it, and no one of sons, cousins and uncle of Imams (who are their family) did not know about it and did not report about it, even they did not know from their grandfathers (Ali, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein)

-  Ja'farism reported 17 times that it was believed that Musa Al-Kadhim was Al-Mahdi??!!

- Ja'farism, even they believe their narrations are collective-transmitted which is Hujjah on people to necessarily believe in, were divided to many sects, some say there is no Imam after Musa Al-Kadhim, some believe that Ismail bin Ja'far is the Imam instead of Musa…etc??!!

* Here ended the speech of Al-Amdi about the questions that Zaidis put..
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The answers from Al-Shaykh Al-Sobhani:

Our narrations are narrated by our all Shi'a (near and far), scholars and not scholars in every time. It is not only Al-Kuylani (owner of book Al-Kafi) or Al-Mofeed (of book Al-Irshad) who narrated and believe in this. It is no one by one belief, it is group by group and time by time believe. And the end of his answer he recommended his students and the inquirer to read a new book which collect all narrations that proves that narration of 12 is collective-transmitted.
Zaidi Commentary
* my answer to that: which groups he is talking about??!! Family of Imams are in those groups??!! If it is really that known why Ummah did not know about the 12 names appointed by Allah like Ummah did know about Ghadeer Khum, Thaqleen narration, Stars narrations… all of this narrations are mentioned in evey hadith'book by Sunnah ad Shi'a.

So, Shaykh Al-Sobhani is so wordy without giving any proof for his words.

And about the new book that will expose the truth of narration 12 names being collective-transmitted, it is only book which will collect the narration that are already in Alkafi and rest books of 12r. so what is really new then??!! We know that the claim about the narration which they are the only who report, even if this narration is in one book or many..
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Al-Sobhani continued saying: even Sunnah books mentioned that there  are 12 caliphs.

Zaidi Commentary
My answer:

- It was said in the video Jaber ibn Sumrah who also mentioned as untrustworthy and narrations of him are not accepted.

- There are three types of sunnah narrations like the following narration:

1- Islam is in dignity and powerful if 12 caliphs (princes) take authority. (sahih muslim)

So:
-  there is no name, no indication to the bloodline or the time that caliphs come after another
- Was Islam in dignity and powerful by Ja'fari Imams, (specially Imams after Al-Hussein, did they do anything to make thing aright??!!

2- It will be 12 caliph after me all of them are from Quraish, then RasullAllah (pbuh) went home when Quraish came to him asking: then What?? He said: then the hoopla begins. (al-albani, and al-baqawi)

So, in this narration, there is a time after these 12 caliphs, which comes after they will be gone and according to books of Shia' and even Zaidi and Sunnah when Al-Mahdi arises the right will be dominant ..

3- It will be after me 12 caliphs the first is Abu Bakir, then Omar then Othman.. (this narration is totally incorrect by Sunnah).. (Al-Haithami)

No comment for me..
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Then Al-Amdi asked how can we make people persuaded that our narrations are collective-transmitted??

Al-Sobhani responded:
 
Knowing that this narration is not collective-transmitted for some people, doesn't prove that it is really not, for example: if there are groups in forest or behind oversees and islam is not reaching them, does that mean that Islam is not correct??!! absolutely not.. the same here.

Zaidi Commentary

My answer to that:

this is a thoughtless answer of him, because people were around Imams all times, even there were hundreds of people studied with Imams Zaidi and Ja'fari (and I emphasize here that all Imams Ja'fari and Zaidi are our Imams, all of them are Zaidi Imams, Imams of ilm and imam of ilm and Jihad)
And that tells us that people are not living in isolated island and Imams and their shia' are in another..
Even more, what about the sons,cousins and uncles of the Imams.
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Al-Amdi asked:
Zaidis ask why knowing the narration and knowing the Imams is exclusive for the few people around Imams??!!
and why was there sporadic divisions among shia' about Imams??!!

Al-Sobhani said:
our narrators and who collected the narrations are trustworthy and people who seek for right should think profoundly to recognize the right. So, people are demanded to come to Shia' (ja'farism) to know about the narrations of 12 names.
And the reason that the narrations were not known and Imams were not recognized is because of the harsh circumstances around Imams, so that Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq made one of the tyrants (ruler of his time) a supporter, to hide his real identity in order not to be killed.
People should know the Imams by their ilm and morals.

Zaidi Commentary
My answer:

- it is mindful to say that their narrators are trustworthy, but why Al-Tosi in his book Al-Tahdhib said that when if there is a good narration, another contradicting narrations appear.. So, where is the trustworthy of that??!!

- why should people know Imams by descriptions is there a well-known and collective-reported narrations??!!, Is it the same thing that Zaidis say that Imam can be know by quranic descriptions??!! How come knowing Imam by his descriptions will lead us to know he is appointed by Allah???!!!

And if we matched the deeds of Imams with Quran, we will know that Zaidi Imams are appointed because they have completed the scientific and practical conditions in Quran, and Ja'fari Imams did not..

Who can Ja'farism deny their history that their Shia' ancestors themselves did not know about the narrations of names??!! And they asked their Imam of time about who is the coming Imam??!!

Bottom line is that answers did not convince Al-Amdi who was keeping repeating the questions again??? The answers tell that knowing Imam can be with profound thinking??? (so where is the narration then)
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Here I want to say: Al-Amdi is ja'fari because of when he knew these questions of Zaidis??!! did he answer them then was convinced to become a Ja'fari?? or he converted so easily and gave these questions no attention?? Then why he was asking them if he see the questions unworthy to answer??!!