TwelverShia.net Forum

Shias and Sunnis should accept that we should be disbelievers in view of each.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Soccer

Quran is clear, that those send by God (Mursaleen) have to be accepted, and that submission towards the most recent chosen choice of God is a requirement and that it's not acceptable to not respond to God with respect to his guidance and caller.

It also clear, that following someone not appointed by God or attributing God without knowledge regarding his religion, is only done by oppressive transgressors.

The Quran is clear, if Mohammad has no chosen successors or leaders after him, it's disbelief to claim it. In fact, following a leader not appointed by God by an Shia sect is condemned as disbelief per Twelver Shiite hadiths as well.

So Shiites should be fine accepting we are disbelievers from the sunni perspective.

Sunnis also should recognize, that Ahlulbayt (a) are not just of those sent by God but as Ziyarat Jamiah Al-Kabeer says "the choice (of God) of the those sent by God".

Rejecting any of those sent by God is never acceptable, be it Ali (a) or Imam Mahdi (a), submission is required.

We should however treat each other with dignity just as we wish Christians and Jews to treat us well, even they believe we follow a fraud, and that Christians and Jews should be treated well by us, despite them rejecting the most significant revelation and most significant Prophet.



 
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Khaled

Quran is clear, that those send by God (Mursaleen) have to be accepted, and that submission towards the most recent chosen choice of God is a requirement and that it's not acceptable to not respond to God with respect to his guidance and caller.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

شفاك الله وأحسن الله إليك

As far as the Qur'an being clear that we must follow the Prophets and Messengers Allah سبحانه وتعالى sends, then of course this is true and no two Muslims would disagree with such a claim.  However, if there was anything past that that was obvious, then there is no way logically that none of the experts of the Qur'an would ever reach this conclusion.  Lets face it, not a single 12er scholar around today can recite the Qur'an properly (except maybe Kamal al-Haydari), let alone considered experts.  Therefore, logically, anything that is understood by the 12er clergy that hasn't been understood by the Muslims (Sunni, Najdi, Zaydi, Ashari, Maturidi, Mutazili, liberal, conservative etc), is rejected and considered delusions by unqualified people.

Quote
The Quran is clear, if Mohammad has no chosen successors or leaders after him, it's disbelief to claim it. In fact, following a leader not appointed by God by an Shia sect is condemned as disbelief per Twelver Shiite hadiths as well.

So Shiites should be fine accepting we are disbelievers from the sunni perspective.

Unfortunately, as is usually the case with your posts, you are unable to articulate yourself in a way that gets your point across without simultaneously contradicting the point your are trying to make.  This is because you believe, then try to find a way to justify it, instead of studying the Deen, then forming your beliefs.  The reality is, you:

a) Recognize that the 12ers make takfeer of the rest of the Muslims,
b) recognize that the Muslims don't make takfeer of the 12ers, except the Khawarji and some of the Najdis,
c) so you reached the conclusion that the 12ers and the Khawarij/Najdis are really the only people that make takfeer of the rest of the Ummah.

So what did you do?  You decided to write this post, in order to find a way to justify takfeer of the 12ers from the Mainstream Muslims' perspective.  الحمدلله, the Muslims, from the ibn Taymiyyah's to the Ali Gomah's don't make takfeer of the 12ers; even the Najdi clergy say the 12er laymen are Muslims, its only the 12er clergy that they make takfeer of.

The reality is, it is not kufr to claim that Imam Ali عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه thought he was an Imam.  It maybe a mistake, but it is not kufr, بارك الله فيك.

Unfortunately, by making this post, you have shown your cards, غفر الله لك.  My guess is, you probably make takfeer of other Shi'a sects.  Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if you made takfeer of the majority of 12ers.  However, ولله الحمد, your views are unique to you and can't be attributed to the 12ers.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Rationalist

12er Shia benefit from extremist Sunnis. They are heavily rely on Nasibis and terrorist to strengthen their sect. When ISIS came out many showed anger, but  many of 12ers were smirking from inside. They finally got to say look world this is the true Sunni Islam, this is what happened in Saqifa..
« Last Edit: December 24, 2020, 05:02:24 PM by Rationalist »

Rationalist


Rejecting any of those sent by God is never acceptable, be it Ali (a) or Imam Mahdi (a), submission is required.

Mahdi is no super human. He will have to accept bayah from all Muslims. He cannot force others to change their school of thought. Otherwise such a Mahdi will fail in no time.
Quote
We should however treat each other with dignity just as we wish Christians and Jews to treat us well, even they believe we follow a fraud, and that Christians and Jews should be treated well by us, despite them rejecting the most significant revelation and most significant Prophet.

If you have it in your mind that the Jew or Christian will go to hell if they don't became Muslim then don't expect them to think differently.


 

Soccer

Mahdi is no super human. He will have to accept bayah from all Muslims. He cannot force others to change their school of thought. Otherwise such a Mahdi will fail in no time.
If you have it in your mind that the Jew or Christian will go to hell if they don't became Muslim then don't expect them to think differently.

The Christians who actually believe in Jesus as in a chosen person by God, are deemed fools by most Christians. Jews who believe in Moses are deemed fools by most Jews. Most Jews and Christians are of the view that Jesus and Moses were evil sorcerers although some of them are of the view they were good sorcerers.  They layered religion that way, first they tell they are chosen or God's son or whatever, then they are good sorcerers, then later on, they take side of 666 and are even anti Jesus and anti Moses.

This also true of Shiites, except, they test you as a kid and through out your life indirectly, some of us like me don't want anything to do with sorcery and Jinn and corrupting the religion nor are we fools to believe in the so called scholars or Marjas, and we are a danger to the system of deception, so we get cursed early in life, even before teenagers.

As for real believers who can perceive and understand Quran, if they exist, they certainly won't be of Shiites today and they are hidden.

If there are true scholars left, they are not known. If there are believers left, they are not known.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

The Christians who actually believe in Jesus as in a chosen person by God, are deemed fools by most Christians. Jews who believe in Moses are deemed fools by most Jews. Most Jews and Christians are of the view that Jesus and Moses were evil sorcerers although some of them are of the view they were good sorcerers.  They layered religion that way, first they tell they are chosen or God's son or whatever, then they are good sorcerers, then later on, they take side of 666 and are even anti Jesus and anti Moses.

http://people.bu.edu/dklepper/RN242/biblical_magic.html
jtsa.edu/the-staff-of-moses

Also there are some good Christains who dedicate their life in Mount Athos.
&ab_channel=OrthodoxNotes






Quote
This also true of Shiites, except, they test you as a kid and through out your life indirectly, some of us like me don't want anything to do with sorcery and Jinn and corrupting the religion nor are we fools to believe in the so called scholars or Marjas, and we are a danger to the system of deception, so we get cursed early in life, even before teenagers.
Yes I am aware of bloodlines issues. The Sahirs fight against each others. Some people are not sahirs in the family, and get cursed the worst. Then when they discover what is going on they can either use the Quran to fight back or they can join the cursed path.

Quote
As for real believers who can perceive and understand Quran, if they exist, they certainly won't be of Shiites today and they are hidden.

If there are true scholars left, they are not known. If there are believers left, they are not known.


Its not that complicated. You just have to keep recite the Quran daily. I don't think one needs go through a challenge like Karbala. Those were people on another level

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
5 Replies
1891 Views
Last post August 30, 2015, 12:10:20 AM
by MuslimK
0 Replies
853 Views
Last post June 29, 2016, 11:28:57 AM
by fgss
2 Replies
765 Views
Last post September 06, 2017, 08:16:24 AM
by MuslimAnswers
1 Replies
749 Views
Last post April 10, 2018, 03:09:39 AM
by Hani