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Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn

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GreatChineseFall

Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« on: July 10, 2016, 11:06:25 PM »
Assalamu aleykum,

Many discussions have been held regarding hadith at-Thaqalyn etc. and the meaning of some words. Here I will look at some other words mentioned in the same narration. The narration is:
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حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بَكَّارِ بْنِ الرَّيَّانِ، حَدَّثَنَا حَسَّانُ، - يَعْنِي ابْنَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ - عَنْ سَعِيدٍ، - وَهُوَ ابْنُ مَسْرُوقٍ - عَنْ يَزِيدَ بْنِ حَيَّانَ، عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ، قَالَ دَخَلْنَا عَلَيْهِ فَقُلْنَا لَهُ لَقَدْ رَأَيْتَ خَيْرًا ‏.‏ لَقَدْ صَاحَبْتَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَصَلَّيْتَ خَلْفَهُ ‏.‏ وَسَاقَ الْحَدِيثَ بِنَحْوِ حَدِيثِ أَبِي حَيَّانَ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ أَلاَ وَإِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ ثَقَلَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ هُوَ حَبْلُ اللَّهِ مَنِ اتَّبَعَهُ كَانَ عَلَى الْهُدَى وَمَنْ تَرَكَهُ كَانَ عَلَى ضَلاَلَةٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ وَفِيهِ فَقُلْنَا مَنْ أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ نِسَاؤُهُ قَالَ لاَ وَايْمُ اللَّهِ إِنَّ الْمَرْأَةَ تَكُونُ مَعَ الرَّجُلِ الْعَصْرَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ ثُمَّ يُطَلِّقُهَا فَتَرْجِعُ إِلَى أَبِيهَا وَقَوْمِهَا أَهْلُ بَيْتِهِ أَصْلُهُ وَعَصَبَتُهُ الَّذِينَ حُرِمُوا الصَّدَقَةَ بَعْدَهُ ‏.

 Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him:
Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.


The word I would like to look at here is taraka (ترك) ie leaving something behind. This doesn't usually mean that you are leaving something behind in the sense of being replaced by it, rather leaving something behind that you will not care for or attend to it or leave it unchanged. As it is said in the verse for example:

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قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا إِنَّا ذَهَبْنَا نَسْتَبِقُ وَتَرَكْنَا يُوسُفَ عِندَ مَتَاعِنَا فَأَكَلَهُ الذِّئْبُ ۖ وَمَا أَنتَ بِمُؤْمِنٍ لَّنَا وَلَوْ كُنَّا صَادِقِينَ
Sahih International
They said, "O our father, indeed we went racing each other and left Joseph with our possessions, and a wolf ate him. But you would not believe us, even if we were truthful."

Here the brothers of Prophet Yusuf left him unattended, taraka as-salat means that someone neglects his prayer ie he doesnt pray anymore, a person who is matruk is someone who is abandoned, if you leave something as inheritance or legacy, ie you are unable to manage it or change it because you are about to die, you also use taraka. The word for leaving behind in the sense of replacing comes from the root khalafa خلف and it's not like the Prophet never appointed someone as replacement before as we can read here:
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حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْمُخَرِّمِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مَهْدِيٍّ، حَدَّثَنَا عِمْرَانُ الْقَطَّانُ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسٍ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم اسْتَخْلَفَ ابْنَ أُمِّ مَكْتُومٍ عَلَى الْمَدِينَةِ مَرَّتَيْنِ ‏.

Narrated Anas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) appointed Ubn Umm Makthum as a governor of Medina (in his absence) twice.

عن أبي سعيد وأبي هريرة رضي الله عنهما أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال ‏:‏ “ما بعث الله من نبي، ولا استخلف من خليفة إلا كانت له بطانتان بطانة تأمره بالمعروف وتحضه عليه، وبطانة تأمره بالشر وتحضه عليه، والمعصوم من عصم الله” ‏(‏‏(‏رواه البخارى‏)‏‏)‏‏.‏

Abu Sa'id and Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "Allah neither raised up any Prophet nor did He authorize any person with ruling power but for whom there were two types of entourage: one enjoins upon him to do good and incites him to carry it out, and the other enjoins evil and goads him; and the protected (from the bad entourage) is the one whom Allah protects."

Here it is talking about istakhlafa, ie leaving as a substitute or authorizing in his absence or as deputy. Why would the Prophet use different words at Ghadeer? The irony is, that there is some kind of replacement of the Prophet as in this narration it states:

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حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْمُنْذِرِ، - كُوفِيٌّ - حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ فُضَيْلٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا الأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ، وَالأَعْمَشُ، عَنْ حَبِيبِ بْنِ أَبِي ثَابِتٍ، عَنْ زَيْدِ بْنِ أَرْقَمَ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالاَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنِّي تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ مَا إِنْ تَمَسَّكْتُمْ بِهِ لَنْ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدِي أَحَدُهُمَا أَعْظَمُ مِنَ الآخَرِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَبْلٌ مَمْدُودٌ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ إِلَى الأَرْضِ وَعِتْرَتِي أَهْلُ بَيْتِي وَلَنْ يَتَفَرَّقَا حَتَّى يَرِدَا عَلَىَّ الْحَوْضَ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ ‏.‏

Narrated Zaid bin Arqam, may Allah be pleased with both of them:
that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:"Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of them is greater than the other: The Book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and my family - the people of my house - and they shall not split until they meet at the Hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me."

At the end it says فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ie "so look at how you will deal with them after me" or better yet "so look how you will replace me regarding them". How can the Prophet mean obedience if the people spoken to are those that are supposed to replace the Prophet? Was the Prophet obeying the Quran and his Ahl al Bayt? This should be a further indication that the Prophet wasn't talking about delegating his authority to them after him.

learning boy

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2016, 02:52:09 AM »
sure, but I don't think he left them as authority; rather it was a reminder that they are there for you so that you do not go astray. The one person we shall rely on his Allah (swt) and the sunnah of the prophet.

Although I don't see how much clearer this can be ; The prophet put both the Quran and Ahlebayt side to side during this speech, not neccesarily saying that they equal each other, but that these two things work together simultaneously. It's very interesting how he made sure that we do not misconceive who the Ahlebayt is, with the following:

He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes

So by this we can differentiate between Who the Sahaba (r) and his wives (r) are and who the Ahlebayt (r) are. In all ways though, I don't see the problem with the Prophet delegating authority to the Ahlebayt, even if it or is not what he has done. Are these people not the closest to The Prophet (saw) ?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 02:54:18 AM by learning boy »

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2016, 09:57:31 AM »
I see that i quoted a wrong narration in arabic.
Good points, but I don't agree with everything you said.
rather it was a reminder that they are there for you so that you do not go astray. The one person we shall rely on his Allah (swt) and the sunnah of the prophet.

You have to consider that the most authentic wording is the one found in sahih Muslim which says " I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.

So the guidance and as a result of not going astray is said regarding the book of Allah. The other narration is weaker and just to show that even that can't mean what people claim it means, but basically we are supposed to treat them as the Prophet treated them. Also, thaqal means a heavy responsibility, when is something that is supposed to guide us described as a heavy responsibility? It's rather the other way around, it's heavy on those who are supposed to guide but the shia's basically say, everyone who abandons the Imam it's upon him and his fault, the Imam is not responsible for them and even if only 3-4 people are left that doesnt matter. Of course it matters, it's the Imam's duty to prevent people being taken advantage of.

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It's very interesting how he made sure that we do not misconceive who the Ahlebayt is, with the following:

Rather the opposite, the fact that Husain had to ask Zaid ibn al Arqam who they were exactly and that Zaid had to explain it to them shows that Husain didn't fully understand who they were after hearing what the Prophet himself said.

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So by this we can differentiate between Who the Sahaba (r) and his wives (r) are and who the Ahlebayt (r) are. In all ways though, I don't see the problem with the Prophet delegating authority to the Ahlebayt, even if it or is not what he has done. Are these people not the closest to The Prophet (saw) ?

Yes, the differentiating factor is the forbiddance on accepting Zakat and his 'itra includes people who he will never meet so how can this be talking about the people who are closest to him?

The problem is not with the Prophet delegating his authority to Ahl al Bayt, I dont really see a problem with that either, the problem is claiming that he did, especially if it results in the condemnation of virtually everybody and the conclusion that the Prophet had no true followers besides his family.

And last but not least, if people want to prevent from being led astray, they should follow in the footsteps of the Ahl al Bayt who pledged allegiance to the three khulafa before Ali which people have no way of explaining except to resort to the concept of taqiyya.

learning boy

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2016, 11:04:08 AM »
thank u for ur knowledge and the points you have given,



The problem is not with the Prophet delegating his authority to Ahl al Bayt, I dont really see a problem with that either, the problem is claiming that he did, especially if it results in the condemnation of virtually everybody and the conclusion that the Prophet had no true followers besides his family.



No matter what anybody says, the sahaba(r) will always have great and amazing people in their midst. To curse all of the sahaba is equivalent to a non-muslim that curses all of Islam and it's followers; baseless and borderline ignorant. What the topic of discussion does seem to angle towards in this topic is specific sahaba's whom the shi'ite of Ali(r) may or may not find very plausible ( which is not impossible, the 5th imam of shi'ite islam, Muhammed al Baqir, had a brother who betrayed him. It goes to show that as holy as 1 may be, it may not render the entire family perfect, which is the same for Ahlebayt).



You have to consider that the most authentic wording is the one found in sahih Muslim which says " I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family.




Sorry is it possible for you to clarify this part a little? I had a little trouble understanding.

Good points with the clarification of the Ahlebayt(r), but would it not be entirely possible that Husain's whole point was to clarify it to the people, primarily zaid? The part ' Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. ' could show his own clarification and reiteration of the information given, kind of like how in some sahih sitta narrations the prophet repeats this part three times : ' I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. ' . My own opinion, can be considered baseless.


And last but not least, if people want to prevent from being led astray, they should follow in the footsteps of the Ahl al Bayt who pledged allegiance to the three khulafa before Ali which people have no way of explaining except to resort to the concept of taqiyya.


Fair and understandable, although a few points.

1. We know from history that Hazrat Hassan and Hussain (r) did not pledge allegiance to the Caliphate, or want-to-be caliphate of that time and even when Hassan (r) signed a peace treaty with specific rules and conditions ( was not an allegiance but a stalemate, and also very possibly due to the amount of military power Muawiya had ) , Muawiya broke the treaty anyways, may or may not had a hand in the assasination of Hassan, and thereby, his son, waged war on Hussain (r). It was because there was no more room or space for consideration and reasoning; Muawiya did what he wanted to do and It was only left for the princes of paradise to defend themselves the best they could.

2. On the topic of Taqiyyah, Shi'ites believe that this is only allowed and permissible only, only, only when one has his life in a hazardous position, and under risk of prosecution and harm. If one believes the Imam's did Taqqiyah, then they must therefore believe their lives were under risk. If believing the latter, of them not being under risk, then one must then think about other questions : Why was Ali (r) being cursed in the mosques before khutbah's and prayers? What was Muawiyah's ultimate reason of the Martyrdom of Hussain (r), and many of other questions.

3. To reiterate and conform point 2. , The Shi'ite belief of the allegiance to the Caliphate from Ali (r) has specific reasons. Ali (r) was told numerous times in narrations by the Prophet himself (saw) that he shall and must stay patient in all circumstances. Shi'ites belief this was tested and Ali (r) passed during the situation when Umar wanted Ali to pay his allegiance ( I have seen a sahih sitta narration that may or may not confirm this, but is not on my mind at the moment ) and brought his men to question Ali at his home. In this process, Umar was said to have threatened Ali with the burning of his house, and pushed the door of his home, knowingly or unknowingly harming the Daughter of the Prophet Fatima (r) as she stood behind the door because she was missing her veil. ( NOTE I AM ACADEMICALLY EXPLAINING THE VIEW OF A SHI'ITE WITH THIS REGARD.) there are shi'ite narrations that pertain to this topic but locating them in sahih sitta may or may not be swift or possible). In this case whether you belief this situation, then you must see how Ali was forced , by the prophets word, to maintain his patience.

If this hadith and part of history were to be true, it shows the length of respect Ali(r) had to the prophet (saw) and the level of taqwa he had to  Allah (swt). If Ali were to attack Umar in this situation, maybe me and you would not be having this discussion at the moment. Maybe the patience of Ali (r) actually saved our Ummah so that Islam would actually still be on this Earth. Especially during the time where the prophet was trying to spread Islam in the most efficient way as possible.

Note: these are my opinions and for the most part the general consensus of a Shi'ite belief. I personally am extremely weak in references of narrations but I can definitely give it a shot if one would like. (It could be a place I need learning and training on )

All in all, I think even the mention of the Ahlebayt during that time is a beauty in itself. I don't see it being wrong in following the Ahlebayt of the prophet ( who turn out to be the next 12 imams in Shi'ite Islam).

Please correct and place criticism where needed.

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2016, 02:24:54 PM »
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What the topic of discussion does seem to angle towards in this topic is specific sahaba's whom the shi'ite of Ali(r) may or may not find very plausible

I agree, the problem is that you have to present clear cut evidence for each and every individual specifically. Unfortunately for most shia's the mere fact that people pledged allegiance to Abu Bakr is evidence enough to condemn them.

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Sorry is it possible for you to clarify this part a little? I had a little trouble understanding.

Good points with the clarification of the Ahlebayt(r), but would it not be entirely possible that Husain's whole point was to clarify it to the people, primarily zaid? The part ' Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. ' could show his own clarification and reiteration of the information given, kind of like how in some sahih sitta narrations the prophet repeats this part three times : ' I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. ' . My own opinion, can be considered baseless.

Husain is doing the asking, Zaid is answering him not the other way around, the quote "These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden" is said by Zaid not Husain.

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1. We know from history that Hazrat Hassan and Hussain (r) did not pledge allegiance to the Caliphate, or want-to-be caliphate of that time and even when Hassan (r) signed a peace treaty with specific rules and conditions ( was not an allegiance but a stalemate, and also very possibly due to the amount of military power Muawiya had ) , Muawiya broke the treaty anyways, may or may not had a hand in the assasination of Hassan, and thereby, his son, waged war on Hussain (r). It was because there was no more room or space for consideration and reasoning; Muawiya did what he wanted to do and It was only left for the princes of paradise to defend themselves the best they could.

2. On the topic of Taqiyyah, Shi'ites believe that this is only allowed and permissible only, only, only when one has his life in a hazardous position, and under risk of prosecution and harm. If one believes the Imam's did Taqqiyah, then they must therefore believe their lives were under risk. If believing the latter, of them not being under risk, then one must then think about other questions : Why was Ali (r) being cursed in the mosques before khutbah's and prayers? What was Muawiyah's ultimate reason of the Martyrdom of Hussain (r), and many of other questions.

I would split the khulafa before Ali with those after him for now as shia's and sunni's fundamentally differ about them in the first place.

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3. To reiterate and conform point 2. , The Shi'ite belief of the allegiance to the Caliphate from Ali (r) has specific reasons. Ali (r) was told numerous times in narrations by the Prophet himself (saw) that he shall and must stay patient in all circumstances. Shi'ites belief this was tested and Ali (r) passed during the situation when Umar wanted Ali to pay his allegiance ( I have seen a sahih sitta narration that may or may not confirm this, but is not on my mind at the moment ) and brought his men to question Ali at his home. In this process, Umar was said to have threatened Ali with the burning of his house, and pushed the door of his home, knowingly or unknowingly harming the Daughter of the Prophet Fatima (r) as she stood behind the door because she was missing her veil. ( NOTE I AM ACADEMICALLY EXPLAINING THE VIEW OF A SHI'ITE WITH THIS REGARD.) there are shi'ite narrations that pertain to this topic but locating them in sahih sitta may or may not be swift or possible). In this case whether you belief this situation, then you must see how Ali was forced , by the prophets word, to maintain his patience.

First, the story of slamming the door is a fairytale, no offense, Ali's home didn't have a door to begin with and there are many other reasons why this story, at least the part about the door, is a total fabrication.

Second, about taqiyya, there is a difference between remaining patient and pledging allegiance, helping them, advising them, marrying from them, naming your children after them, praying with them, defending them when they are about to be attacked and participating in their government.

Besides, of all the people who could practice taqiyya, the leader, the Imam, the one who is supposed to guide everybody else is the last person on earth who should resort to it especially if it is said that he is with the truth and the truth is with him. How can that be the case if none of this truth is ever shown to the public? Not to mention that he was factually ruling the Muslims at some point in time.

If it is said, why did he say certain things then they say it's out of taqiyya, if it is said why did he marry off to certain people, they say it's out of force and by taqiyya, if it's said why didn't he repair some of the mistakes the previous rulers made, they say he didn't have enough true followers/out of taqiyya for his followers that remained loyal to the previous rulers, (ie his followers tell him what to do and he complies out of taqiyya). At some point it's hardly worth considering, I would advise you to consider the following, is there anything that could have happened historically where people couldn't use this excuse of taqiyya? You can always claim that things are done out of force but I mean if Ali is supposed to have said the following for example:

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدَانُ، أَخْبَرَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ، حَدَّثَنَا عُمَرُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ، يَقُولُ وُضِعَ عُمَرُ عَلَى سَرِيرِهِ، فَتَكَنَّفَهُ النَّاسُ يَدْعُونَ وَيُصَلُّونَ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُرْفَعَ، وَأَنَا فِيهِمْ، فَلَمْ يَرُعْنِي إِلاَّ رَجُلٌ آخِذٌ مَنْكِبِي، فَإِذَا عَلِيٌّ فَتَرَحَّمَ عَلَى عُمَرَ، وَقَالَ مَا خَلَّفْتَ أَحَدًا أَحَبَّ إِلَىَّ أَنْ أَلْقَى اللَّهَ بِمِثْلِ عَمَلِهِ مِنْكَ، وَايْمُ اللَّهِ، إِنْ كُنْتُ لأَظُنُّ أَنْ يَجْعَلَكَ اللَّهُ مَعَ صَاحِبَيْكَ، وَحَسِبْتُ أَنِّي كُنْتُ كَثِيرًا أَسْمَعُ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ذَهَبْتُ أَنَا وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ، وَدَخَلْتُ أَنَا وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ، وَخَرَجْتُ أَنَا وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ‏.‏

Narrated Ibn `Abbas:

When (the dead body of) `Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was `Ali bin Abi Talib. `Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for `Umar and said, "O `Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and `Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and `Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and `Umar went out."'

Can this really be taqiyya, couldn't he just remain silent? Of course people will then say that this isn't true and then we come to the topic of authenticating what is true and what isn't.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 02:32:49 PM by GreatChineseFall »

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2016, 09:40:37 PM »
well hello there GreatChineseFall.

Question: What does thaqlayn exactly mean?

Does it not mean 2 things of equal weight?

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2016, 10:48:14 PM »
Hi, at-Thaqal means a heavy thing or heavy responsibility or a heavy burden. Just like it is said in Sahih Muslim:

Quote
وَعَنْ اِبْنِ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اَللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالَ: { بَعَثَنِي رَسُولُ اَللَّهِ ‏- صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏-فِي اَلثَّقَلِ, أَوْ قَالَ فِي اَلضَّعَفَةِ مِنْ جَمْعٍ بِلَيْلٍ  .‏

Ibn ‘Abbas (RAA) narrated, ‘The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) sent me at night from al-Muzdalifah (to Mina) with the Thaqal or the weak members of his family (women and children).’

So here the Thaqal are the weak family members because they can't defend themselves and as such are described as at-Thaqal ie a heavy responsibility for those who take care of them as they have to defend them in case of a suprise attack by the enemy.

It doesn't mean that if some people claim in their name that they should go to Qom instead of Mina but the only reason why they said Mina is only because of taqiyya against those who are supposed to take care of them in the first place. Ibn Abbas wouldn't follow those people blindly to Qom. That would be unwise to say the least, it might even be an ambush.

And at-Thaqalayn is the dual form and no, it doesn't mean that they are of equal weight.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 11:09:42 PM by GreatChineseFall »

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 12:46:34 AM »
Hi, at-Thaqal means a heavy thing or heavy responsibility or a heavy burden. Just like it is said in Sahih Muslim:

Quote
وَعَنْ اِبْنِ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اَللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالَ: { بَعَثَنِي رَسُولُ اَللَّهِ ‏- صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏-فِي اَلثَّقَلِ, أَوْ قَالَ فِي اَلضَّعَفَةِ مِنْ جَمْعٍ بِلَيْلٍ  .‏

Ibn ‘Abbas (RAA) narrated, ‘The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) sent me at night from al-Muzdalifah (to Mina) with the Thaqal or the weak members of his family (women and children).’

So here the Thaqal are the weak family members because they can't defend themselves and as such are described as at-Thaqal ie a heavy responsibility for those who take care of them as they have to defend them in case of a suprise attack by the enemy.

It doesn't mean that if some people claim in their name that they should go to Qom instead of Mina but the only reason why they said Mina is only because of taqiyya against those who are supposed to take care of them in the first place. Ibn Abbas wouldn't follow those people blindly to Qom. That would be unwise to say the least, it might even be an ambush.

And at-Thaqalayn is the dual form and no, it doesn't mean that they are of equal weight.

ok, we both agree thaqal means something heavy or perhaps heavy responsibility. For the time being, I will discuss if thaqlayn means two heavy things of equal weight or simply two heavy things.

Are we in agreement that then that since the Prophet mentions he is leaving behind 2 things - that they are most important things? Or just because he did not say something, doesn't mean it is excluded?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 04:56:09 AM »
Hi, at-Thaqal means a heavy thing or heavy responsibility or a heavy burden. Just like it is said in Sahih Muslim:

Quote
وَعَنْ اِبْنِ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اَللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالَ: { بَعَثَنِي رَسُولُ اَللَّهِ ‏- صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏-فِي اَلثَّقَلِ, أَوْ قَالَ فِي اَلضَّعَفَةِ مِنْ جَمْعٍ بِلَيْلٍ  .‏

Ibn ‘Abbas (RAA) narrated, ‘The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) sent me at night from al-Muzdalifah (to Mina) with the Thaqal or the weak members of his family (women and children).’

So here the Thaqal are the weak family members because they can't defend themselves and as such are described as at-Thaqal ie a heavy responsibility for those who take care of them as they have to defend them in case of a suprise attack by the enemy.

It doesn't mean that if some people claim in their name that they should go to Qom instead of Mina but the only reason why they said Mina is only because of taqiyya against those who are supposed to take care of them in the first place. Ibn Abbas wouldn't follow those people blindly to Qom. That would be unwise to say the least, it might even be an ambush.

And at-Thaqalayn is the dual form and no, it doesn't mean that they are of equal weight.

ok, we both agree thaqal means something heavy or perhaps heavy responsibility. For the time being, I will discuss if thaqlayn means two heavy things of equal weight or simply two heavy things.

Are we in agreement that then that since the Prophet mentions he is leaving behind 2 things - that they are most important things? Or just because he did not say something, doesn't mean it is excluded?
Both are important in their respective manners. Quran in regards to following since it has guidance. And taking care of his family members ALL those on whom acceptance of Charity was forbidden.

For details refer this article:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2015/02/19/hadeeth-al-thaqalayntwo-weighty-things-the-correct-understanding-and-a-spot-on-perspective-of-sunnis/

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 10:58:12 AM »
Hi, at-Thaqal means a heavy thing or heavy responsibility or a heavy burden. Just like it is said in Sahih Muslim:

Quote
وَعَنْ اِبْنِ عَبَّاسٍ رَضِيَ اَللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالَ: { بَعَثَنِي رَسُولُ اَللَّهِ ‏- صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏-فِي اَلثَّقَلِ, أَوْ قَالَ فِي اَلضَّعَفَةِ مِنْ جَمْعٍ بِلَيْلٍ  .‏

Ibn ‘Abbas (RAA) narrated, ‘The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) sent me at night from al-Muzdalifah (to Mina) with the Thaqal or the weak members of his family (women and children).’

So here the Thaqal are the weak family members because they can't defend themselves and as such are described as at-Thaqal ie a heavy responsibility for those who take care of them as they have to defend them in case of a suprise attack by the enemy.

It doesn't mean that if some people claim in their name that they should go to Qom instead of Mina but the only reason why they said Mina is only because of taqiyya against those who are supposed to take care of them in the first place. Ibn Abbas wouldn't follow those people blindly to Qom. That would be unwise to say the least, it might even be an ambush.

And at-Thaqalayn is the dual form and no, it doesn't mean that they are of equal weight.

ok, we both agree thaqal means something heavy or perhaps heavy responsibility. For the time being, I will discuss if thaqlayn means two heavy things of equal weight or simply two heavy things.

Are we in agreement that then that since the Prophet mentions he is leaving behind 2 things - that they are most important things? Or just because he did not say something, doesn't mean it is excluded?

Not necessarily, they are the heaviest responsibility, do you take from the narration by Ibn Abbas that the weak family members are the most important thing?

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 05:59:35 PM »

Not necessarily, they are the heaviest responsibility, do you take from the narration by Ibn Abbas that the weak family members are the most important thing?

That is a new one. Are you saying that the Prophet meant to say that he is leaving behind the Quran and weak family members? Also does thaqal apply to both things so in essence the Prophet said he is leaving behind a weak quran and weak family members. Is that what you are saying?

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 06:21:41 PM »
That is a new one. Are you saying that the Prophet meant to say that he is leaving behind the Quran and weak family members? Also does thaqal apply to both things so in essence the Prophet said he is leaving behind a weak quran and weak family members. Is that what you are saying?

You are either incapable of following a simple argument or you are delibrately trying to misconstruct my words, in both cases not a good sign. Weakness with regards to Zaid's narration wasn't even brought up. I said in the case of Ibn Abbas' narration that those family members were called thaqal because they were weak. If you have trouble understanding the difference between saying that (1) one is thaqal because he is weak and (2) one is weak because he is thaqal, then you should spend a little bit more time figuring out that difference.

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 07:00:05 PM »
You are either incapable of following a simple argument or you are delibrately trying to misconstruct my words, in both cases not a good sign. Weakness with regards to Zaid's narration wasn't even brought up. I said in the case of Ibn Abbas' narration that those family members were called thaqal because they were weak. If you have trouble understanding the difference between saying that (1) one is thaqal because he is weak and (2) one is weak because he is thaqal, then you should spend a little bit more time figuring out that difference.
I am not trying to misconstrue anything. You are confusing two different narrations and I am simply trying to correlate them.

Hadtih-e-thaqalayn: Are Quran and AhlulBayt the two most important things the Prophet left behind? Yes/No?

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 08:28:50 PM »
Quote
I am not trying to misconstrue anything. You are confusing two different narrations and I am simply trying to correlate them.

Hadtih-e-thaqalayn: Are Quran and AhlulBayt the two most important things the Prophet left behind? Yes/No?

You think I am the one confused and you are trying to correlate them. In the meantime, you miss my point: that what doesn't correlate them ie importance which is enough to refute your claim

And that should also answer your question as I said earlier : not necessarily because of the narration, at least not because the word thaqalayn is used. A better argument would be that those are the only things left behind by the Prophet saw and  then by definition they are also the most important.
But we can also skip the entire discussion and assume that they are the most important.

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 08:40:22 PM »
But we can also skip the entire discussion and assume that they are the most important.
Great. Now that we are in agreement that the two most important things the Prophet left behind were the Quran and his AhluBayt (not Quran and Sunnah as is often referred), we can begin the discussion on what "leaving behind" actually means.

At the end it says فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ie "so look at how you will deal with them after me" or better yet "so look how you will replace me regarding them". How can the Prophet mean obedience if the people spoken to are those that are supposed to replace the Prophet? Was the Prophet obeying the Quran and his Ahl al Bayt? This should be a further indication that the Prophet wasn't talking about delegating his authority to them after him.
Was the Prophet obeying Quran and AhlulBayt? While you are focused on taraka, you completely missed after me so whether the Prophet meant obedience or delegating authority - he made it clear the instructions were for after him . Or is that not important?

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2016, 10:05:43 PM »
But we can also skip the entire discussion and assume that they are the most important.
Great. Now that we are in agreement that the two most important things the Prophet left behind were the Quran and his AhluBayt (not Quran and Sunnah as is often referred), we can begin the discussion on what "leaving behind" actually means.

At the end it says فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ تَخْلُفُونِي فِيهِمَا ie "so look at how you will deal with them after me" or better yet "so look how you will replace me regarding them". How can the Prophet mean obedience if the people spoken to are those that are supposed to replace the Prophet? Was the Prophet obeying the Quran and his Ahl al Bayt? This should be a further indication that the Prophet wasn't talking about delegating his authority to them after him.
Was the Prophet obeying Quran and AhlulBayt? While you are focused on taraka, you completely missed after me so whether the Prophet meant obedience or delegating authority - he made it clear the instructions were for after him . Or is that not important?

"Now that we are in agreement that ..." What did I just tell you about misconstructing things? Try a little harder if you dont want to do that.

He saw was about to die and is telling the companions how they should replace him with regards to the things he saw was doing, yes. Btw, the wording you are quoting is not authentic so you can't base your doctrine upon them. The most correct one is Zaid's narration

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2016, 11:25:31 PM »
"Now that we are in agreement that ..." What did I just tell you about misconstructing things? Try a little harder if you dont want to do that.

You said:
But we can also skip the entire discussion and assume that they are the most important.

So am I to not assume or assume?

He saw was about to die and is telling the companions how they should replace him with regards to the things he saw was doing, yes. Btw, the wording you are quoting is not authentic so you can't base your doctrine upon them. The most correct one is Zaid's narration
But that is your interpretation that he is talking about replacement? I have not read it anywhere else.
Zaid narration is, "I am leaving behind...", no?

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2016, 01:12:19 AM »
Quote
So am I to not assume or assume?
If you can't tell the difference between assuming and agreeing either, then you have more work cut out for you.

Quote
But that is your interpretation that he is talking about replacement? I have not read it anywhere else.
Zaid narration is, "I am leaving behind...", no?

It was you who brought up and insisted on the "after him" bit. If you want to focus on Zaid's narration, then that is not mentioned in there too.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 01:21:16 AM by GreatChineseFall »

ShiaMan

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2016, 01:35:56 AM »
If you can't tell the difference between assuming and agreeing either, then you have more work cut out for you.
You are making this way more complicated than it had to be. So if I get it, all you are saying we can assume Quran and the AhlulBayt are 2 most important but you are not agreeing to the assumption.

It was you who brought up and insisted on the "after him" bit. If you want to focus on Zaid's narration, then that is not mentioned in there too.
So when the Prophet said he is leaving two weighty things, he meant during his life only and not after him?

GreatChineseFall

Re: Some misconceptions about Thaqalayn
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2016, 08:41:03 AM »
Quote
So if i get it, all you are saying we can assume Quran and the AhlulBayt are 2 most important but you are not agreeing to the assumption.
I repeat: If you dont understand the difference between assuming and agreeing, you have your work cut out for you.

Quote
So when the Prophet said he is leaving two weighty things, he meant during his life only and not after him?
If you also have a problem differentiating between what is meant and what is said, then we are going to be here for a while. As far as what he meant, yes he meant after him
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 09:31:18 AM by GreatChineseFall »

 

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