Sunni sect was created by Jews

[Zlatan Ibrahimovic]

No one is trying to make a smokescreen, I have no idea what you're talking about. The distinction serves a great purpose:

- Someone who disbelieves in the Usool of the Deen (tawhid, nubuwwah) is a kafir. Outwardly and in batin.

- Someone who believes in the Usool of the Deen (tawhid, nubuwwahl) ONLY while disbelieving in the Usool of the Madhab (Imamah, Adl) is to be treated as a Muslim and considered a Muslim - outwardly - but his reality is kufr. And he is not treated as a Mu'min (there are differences in Fiqhi Laws between Mu'mins and only Muslim).

This is if, as far as I have learnt, only if their disbelief in Imamah and Adl is due to shubha or jahl or something which doesn't obligate rejection of what the Prophet has done tabligh about.

- Someone who believes in all five Usools is a Muslim and a Mu'min. He will go to Jannah.

It serves a great distinction in the way you treat people and how you go about in your daily life such as marriage and food and purity of people, returning of the salam, and other things such as qisas, etc...

I am not saying that the distinction between how you treat certain people and what you believe them to be is a useful distinction. I am talking about the distinction between something being an asl of the deen and somethin being an asl of the madhab if the madhab itsself is a necessity of the deen. You CANNOT claim that something is not an asl of the deen and consider everyone who doesn't believe in that to be not a Mu'min or a Muslim. (Because you also don't believe Sunni's to be Muslims. What matters here is their reality, not how you treat them)

Consider this, let's say I say that the asl of the deen is only to believe in Allah and no other deities and the belief in the Prophets is an asl of my madhab, the madhab of the last Prophet(s.a.w.s.). And I call all Christians and Jews and other supposedly monotheists as Muslims and I treat them as such but not as Mu'mins and in reality they are all kuffaar. Then I say that the prohibition on backbiting is not the right of a Muslim but a Mu'min. Furthermore all these other rights are rights of Mu'mins, not Muslims(Basically whether or not it's convenient, I can simply make up which rights I want to grant them and which ones not, except for the clearly mentioned ones in the Qur'an). Does it REALLY make sense to call them Muslims then? What is the difference if I don't and give them the same rights as here?

In reality, there is no difference. The only difference is the Fiqh Laws and outward treatment differs. But in reality they are the same.

Isn't Taqiyyah to express outwardly what you don't believe internally? Isn't that exactly what you are saying here?

Yes it does make sense to call them as such. Do you think this distinction is not important? You can read any Twelver Shi'a Fiqh book and compare the rights of the Muslim (not just the mu'min) to that of the the kafir, and I assure you, you'd probably want to be a Muslim if Twelvers were ruling. Things like inheritance laws, food laws, transactional laws, and let's not even get into hudood, qisas and even Jihad laws between Muslims and kafirs in the Twelver Realm. So why are yow downplaying the importance of this distinction?

If I treat you well, and you treat me well, why would you care about how I view your reality? As long as we get along fine in the world.

As for taqiyya, no. I am expressing outwardly what I believe outwardly, which is that Sunnis are to be treated as Muslims in this life.

And this isn't just exclusive to Sunnis and non-Shi'a, I have seen debates among Shi'a on whether the reality of the one who doesn't pray is a kafir, or whether he is kafir in the Afterlife, for there are sahih narrations which call him a kafir. But he is to be treated as a mu'min.

[Hadrami]

Perfect, I believe I illustrated what I had in mind in this thread.

Thank you for your time.

Isnt it amazing that shia, the largest takfiri group in the world is seen by outsiders as a group which is against takfir practices the most. Even the khawarij of today is mild in comparison to shia

Because, you fool, we are not going around chopping heads of other people.

If chopping head is how you define khawarij then you will have problem with what Ali ra did and your scared for his life hiding imam will do

Todays khawarij who are making takfir of Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam wives & most of sahaba is only the shia aka largest khawarij in the world. The other smaller khawarij belief is mild compare to shia belief. Thats a fact you cant deny with a dimwit reply like that.

[ZulFiqar]

As a non-Sunni, I would say there are some elements of the mainstream Sunni creed that indicate some influence from Judaism and Christianity, particularly the doctrine of the Ghaiba of Jesus of Nazareth عليه السلام, that he is alive for the past two millennia somewhere in the heavens, with a bodily and physical/sensory life. I believe this particular doctrine must have been imported into Sunnism by the Christian converts to Islam. Although I have great respect for Ka'b al-Ahbar رضى الله عنه who was nothing short of being Raasikh fil-'Ilm, it does appear to me that some of the more Judaic and Christian legendary interpretations and exegesis of Ayaat of the Holy Qur'an originate with him; interpretations which now characterise the standard Sunni creed. Similarly, many Sunnis believe that Prophet Idris عليه السلام was likewise raised to the 4th or 6th Heaven bodily and physically sitting on the wings of an Angel. This is based on the Christian/Jewish legendary account that was forced as an interpretation of Sura 19:57.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

As a non-Sunni, I would say there are some elements of the mainstream Sunni creed that indicate some influence from Judaism and Christianity, particularly the doctrine of the Ghaiba of Jesus of Nazareth عليه السلام, that he is alive for the past two millennia somewhere in the heavens, with a bodily and physical/sensory life. I believe this particular doctrine must have been imported into Sunnism by the Christian converts to Islam. Although I have great respect for Ka'b al-Ahbar رضى الله عنه who was nothing short of being Raasikh fil-'Ilm, it does appear to me that some of the more Judaic and Christian legendary interpretations and exegesis of Ayaat of the Holy Qur'an originate with him; interpretations which now characterise the standard Sunni creed. Similarly, many Sunnis believe that Prophet Idris عليه السلام was likewise raised to the 4th or 6th Heaven bodily and physically sitting on the wings of an Angel. This is based on the Christian/Jewish legendary account that was forced as an interpretation of Sura 19:57.

What madhab are you?

[ZulFiqar]

What madhab are you?

Tawhidi or Muwahhid

[zaid_ibn_ali]

What madhab are you?

Tawhidi or Muwahhid

In todays world what is that?

What sources of Islam do you follow?

[ZulFiqar]

In todays world what is that?

What sources of Islam do you follow?

In today's world that means a Muslim who prioritises Tawhid and Iman in the Oneness of Allah, with all its implications, as the most fundamental principle, and the interpretation and application of the sources of Islam (Qur'an, Sunna, Hadith) are subject to this most fundamental principle of Tawhid. Hence any doctrine or practice, even if people claim it is based on an interpretation or application of the Qur'an and Sunna, but which is manifestly contrary to Tawhid, is rejected. Here are some of the prominent areas where we differ from "mainstream" Muslims, due to our prioritising Tawhid as the ultimate principle to which all interpretations and practices within Islam has to be subject to:

1. We believe the deceased are unable to hear

2. We believe that hanging amulets for Ta'widh is Shirk

3. We believe the meat from animals slaughtered by Mushrikin is Haram

4. We believe that the Prophets are deceased; they are not alive in their graves; rather their souls are experiencing the delights in the Illiyeen

5. We believe that Sihr (witchcraft) is unreal

6. We believe that the souls of the deceased cannot return to this world, i.e., Raj'a

[Hadrami]

As a non-Sunni, I would say there are some elements of the mainstream Sunni creed that indicate some influence from Judaism and Christianity, particularly the doctrine of the Ghaiba of Jesus of Nazareth عليه السلام, that he is alive for the past two millennia somewhere in the heavens, with a bodily and physical/sensory life. I believe this particular doctrine must have been imported into Sunnism by the Christian converts to Islam.

you are qadiyani right? Seems like the content of your website is about bashing everyone, but very fond of ghulam qadiyani

[ZulFiqar]

you are qadiyani right? Seems like the content of your website is about bashing everyone, but very fond of ghulam qadiyani

Sir I am not about bashing anyone but rather educating my readers about erroneous beliefs and harmful doctrines being propagated in the name of Islam. As for Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, I consider him a great scholar and revivalist of Islam, not a Prophet, as I unequivocally believe that the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ is the Seal of the Prophets.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

you are qadiyani right? Seems like the content of your website is about bashing everyone, but very fond of ghulam qadiyani

Sir I am not about bashing anyone but rather educating my readers about erroneous beliefs and harmful doctrines being propagated in the name of Islam. As for Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, I consider him a great scholar and revivalist of Islam, not a Prophet, as I unequivocally believe that the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ is the Seal of the Prophets.

Mirza Ghulam of Qadian considered himself as the messiah right? What do you say about that?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

you are qadiyani right? Seems like the content of your website is about bashing everyone, but very fond of ghulam qadiyani

Sir I am not about bashing anyone but rather educating my readers about erroneous beliefs and harmful doctrines being propagated in the name of Islam. As for Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, I consider him a great scholar and revivalist of Islam, not a Prophet, as I unequivocally believe that the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ is the Seal of the Prophets.

Lol. Qadiyanis too have taqiyyah?

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

you are qadiyani right? Seems like the content of your website is about bashing everyone, but very fond of ghulam qadiyani

Sir I am not about bashing anyone but rather educating my readers about erroneous beliefs and harmful doctrines being propagated in the name of Islam. As for Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, I consider him a great scholar and revivalist of Islam, not a Prophet, as I unequivocally believe that the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ is the Seal of the Prophets.

Do you consider Prophet Muhammad(saws) as the last and Final Prophet and Messenger from Allah?

[ZulFiqar]

Do you consider Prophet Muhammad(saws) as the last and Final Prophet and Messenger from Allah?

Absolutely 100%.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

you are qadiyani right? Seems like the content of your website is about bashing everyone, but very fond of ghulam qadiyani

Sir I am not about bashing anyone but rather educating my readers about erroneous beliefs and harmful doctrines being propagated in the name of Islam. As for Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, I consider him a great scholar and revivalist of Islam, not a Prophet, as I unequivocally believe that the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ is the Seal of the Prophets.

On what grounds did Maulana Sana ullah Amritsari did mubahila with Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Qadianis are aware mainstream muslims will never tolerate the premise of any prophet after the final prophet SAW.
Hence why they now say they accept muhammad SAW as the final prophet. Yet they still see mirza ghulam ahmed as the messiah.
Hence why they dont want us to disprove the theory of infallible imamate of non prophets. They just want us to disprove the shia line is wrong so the door is opened to swing towards the qadiani belief.

[ZulFiqar]

On what grounds did Maulana Sana ullah Amritsari did mubahila with Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani?

The reality is that Sanaullah never accepted the Mubahala challenge of Ghulam Ahmad. Instead, Ghulam Ahmad made a unilateral du'a against Sanaullah. Mubahala means both parties actively invoke the curse of Allah against each other, i.e., takes two to tango. So it is not correct to refer to what happened as a Mubahala since Sanaullah refused to participate and declined the invitation to Mubahala.

Ghulam Ahmad invited him to participate in a Mubahala regarding Sanaullah's allegation that Ghulam Ahmad is a liar. But Sanaullah flatly declined to participate in the contest, so Ghulam Ahmad published a unilateral Du'a against him instead.

[Mythbuster1]

Perfect, I believe I illustrated what I had in mind in this thread.

Thank you for your time.

Isnt it amazing that shia, the largest takfiri group in the world is seen by outsiders as a group which is against takfir practices the most. Even the khawarij of today is mild in comparison to shia

Because, you fool, we are not going around chopping heads of other people.

No instead you use chemical weapons on innocents cos they ain't Maumin......might be Muslim but not Maumin, kafir in the next world but not in this world........YOU FOOL

[Hani]

I heard Ghulam's books contain a lot of useful material in them, not harmful to benefit from his books as long as you don't believe in his other ridiculous claims. Lighten up people.

[ZulFiqar]

I heard Ghulam's books contain a lot of useful material in them, not harmful to benefit from his books as long as you don't believe in his other ridiculous claims. Lighten up people.

Precisely. I am not part of the Ahmadiyya movement, but have read and benefited from some of Ghulam Ahmad's books. Since this forum is focused more on Shi'ism and related issues, I should tell you that I benefited from his book Sirr-ul-Khilafa (Secret of the Caliphate) which is a beautiful refutation of Shi'ism and a defense of the institution of Khilafa al-Rashida

http://www.aaiil.org/text/books/mga/sirrul/sirrulkhilafahsecretofexistence.pdf

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

On what grounds did Maulana Sana ullah Amritsari did mubahila with Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani?

The reality is that Sanaullah never accepted the Mubahala challenge of Ghulam Ahmad. Instead, Ghulam Ahmad made a unilateral du'a against Sanaullah. Mubahala means both parties actively invoke the curse of Allah against each other, i.e., takes two to tango. So it is not correct to refer to what happened as a Mubahala since Sanaullah refused to participate and declined the invitation to Mubahala.

Ghulam Ahmad invited him to participate in a Mubahala regarding Sanaullah's allegation that Ghulam Ahmad is a liar. But Sanaullah flatly declined to participate in the contest, so Ghulam Ahmad published a unilateral Du'a against him instead.

Just read about this in the book, Qadiyaniat, An Analytical Survey, pages 159-162, by Ehsan Elahi Zaheer.

In sheer desperation, he issued a regular denouncement on the 15th of April, 1907: "In the name of Allah, the most Merciful /the most compassionate. We praise Him and pray for His noble Apostle. They ask you: Is it true? Say yes, by my Lord. It is true. To Ustad Sanaullah - Salam on whosoever follows the guidance. For a considerable period I have been called a liar and a profligate in your magazine "Ahl-e-Hadith" In this magazine you always call me 'This accursed liar, anti-Christ, corruptor'. It publicizes to the whole world that I am an innovator, a liar, an anti-Christ, that I have forged a lie as far as my claim of Messiahship is concerned'. I have suffered considerable pain at your hands but I remained patient. But when I realized that I have been commissioned for dissemination of the truth and you prevent people from paying attention to me on account of your calumnies against me —so I pray that if I am a liar and an innovator, as you refer to me in your magazine, then l shall die during your life-time because I know that the life span of a liar and a corrupter is not long. On the other hand he lies frustrated during the life-time of his staunch enemies, in shame and degradation. In his death lies the welfare of God's creatures as he cannot mislead them after his death. But if I am not a liar and an innovator but I am honoured by Allah's address and dialogue, and I am the promised Messiah, then I pray that you shall not escape the end of liars according to God's practice. So I announce that if you do not die during my life by God's punishment which cannot but be from God alone — for example that you 'die pf plague or cholera — then I am not an Apostle of God Almighty.

This I do not utter as a prediction but I have asked for the final verdict from God, the Holy r the Almighty. I pray to God - my Lord, the observer, the powerful, the knower, the Omniscient, Knower of the secrets of hearts L If I am a liar and am corrupt in your view and I forge lies against you, night and day, Allah, then perish me in the life-time of Ustad Sana- ullah and make him and his party happy by my death. Amen. And Allah, if I am truthful and Sanaullah is false and is a liar in his accusations that he levels at me, then Lord of the universe, perish him in my life-time with fatal diseases like plague or cholera or some other diseases, Amen!.

O Lord! I have been tortured and I tolerated it all. But now I perceive he has crossed the limit and he believes I am more profligate than thieves and ravishers who cause harm to the world. He considers me to be the meanest of God's creatures. He has defamed me in far-flung areas of the country and believes that I am in fact an evil person, a marauder, greedy, Mar, innovator and abominable person. Had there been no echo of these utterings, I would have tolerated them, But I realize that Sanaullah's accusations have an ulterior motive. He desires to bury my mission and dismantle my edifice which you have built.

O My Lord and you who have sent me. For this reason, I beseech you, Allah, seeking refuge in your mercy and compassion. Decide the truth between me and Sanaullah and destroy the liar and the evil in the life-time of the truthful or afflict him with a death-like calamity. Kindly do this my dear Lord — Amen! Our Lord! Expose the truth between us and our nation and you are the best of the victors.

In the end i expect from Ustad Sanaullah that he should publish this text in his magazine and write whatever note he likes on it. The verdict is now in the hand of Allah, The writer, Allah's servant, Ghulam Ahmad, the promised Messiah, may God protect him and help him". (Badr, April 15, 1907)

The Qadiyani Ghulam Ahmad sought in this prayer the death of the liar during the lifetime of the truthful. In other words, if Ghulam Ahmad was truthful, Shaikh Sanaullah will die during his life. And if Shaikh Sanaullah was truthful, then Ghulam Ahmad shall die during his life- time. Ten days after this announcement and prayer, Ghulam Ahmad published in a Qadiyani newspaper: "All that has been said about Sanaullah is not from ourselves but is from God as it was revealed to me on the night of the prayer that I respond to the call of the caller'; The meaning of this revelation is that my call has been accepted" [Badr, April 25, 1907 ]

His call was actually accepted and the truth was decided between him and Sanaullah. After exactly thirteen months and ten days God announced His decision. He decreed it in a spine-chilling manner that Ghulam Ahmad wished for the eminent Sanaullah, yes, by the very disease which he himself had named i.e., cholera.

Bashir Ahmad son of Ghulam Ahmad writes in his biography:

"My mother informed me that his holiness wanted to go to the bathroom immediately after meaL Then he slept awhile. After that he felt like going to the toilet again. He did go to the toilet once or twice without telling me. Then he woke me up. I found him to be extremely weak. He could not walk to his bed. So he sat down on my bed. I began rubbing and massaging him. After sometime he wanted to go to the toilet again. But he was too emaciated to reach the toilet. So he used the bed as a chamber pot. After this he lay down for a little while. The weakness, however, had become acute and reached its lowest ebb. He felt like visiting the toilet again, and used the bed as toilet. Then he vomited. After vomiting he fell flat on his back, his head hitting the wooden frame of the bed. His condition changed for the worst" ' . [Sirat-ul-Mehdi, p.l09]

His father-In law wrote: 'The night his holiness fell ill I was sleeping in my room. When his illness grew severe, they woke me up, I went over to his holiness and found him in great pain. He addressed me saying: "I have been stricken with cholera. After this he did not utter a single intelligible and coherent word till he died on monday after ten O'clock in the morning".[Hayat-i-Nasir,p.14]

He died while Sanaullah lived and continued living nearly forty years after his death, dismantling \ the edifice