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Sunni sect was created by Jews

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Muhammad Tazin

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2017, 11:16:51 AM »
A good source to know about Mirza gulam Ahmad, the treacherous liar -
http://radd-e-mirzaiut.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/mirza-calling-himself-muhammad-saw.html 

ZulFiqar

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2017, 11:23:23 AM »
Sir if you are taking all your facts from E. E. Zaheer's book without knowing the background and details of this episode then you have done a great injustice to yourself.

The first thing to keep in mind is that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's challenge to Sanaullah Amritsari can be traced back much earlier to 15th November, 1902, when his book "I'jaz-e-Ahmadi" was published. In it he clearly stated:

اگر اس چیلنج پر وہ مستعد ہوۓ کہ کاذب صادق کے پہلے مرجاۓ تو ضرور وہ پہلے مریں گے

"If he accepts this challenge that the liar should die before the truthful one, then surely he will die first." (Ruhani Khaza'in v.19 p.148; I'jaz-e-Ahmadi p.37)

So we safely conclude from this that according to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the fact that the liar will definitely die within the lifetime of the truthful is subject to the condition that Sanaullah Amritsari first accept this maxim, so that it can be a heavenly sign, and in the aftermath no party should make any objection that they don't accept the outcome because they don't agree with its premise.

Now you have quoted Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's supplication from E. E. Zaheer's book from 15th April, 1907, but ask yourself why didn't E. E. Zaheer likewise quote Sanaullah's response to this supplication? For your benefit I will quote Sanaullah's response from 24th April, 1907 in his Ahle Hadith periodical:

First: "I never agreed to such a prayer, and without my consent this prayer was published." Second: "This subject was not published by way of Ilhaam rather it is said that this is not a prophecy by way of divine inspiration but it is merely a prayer." Third: "My grouse is with you (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) if I die what evidence could that be to other persons?" Fourth: "You have been very clever (to have prayed for death by plague) having seen that nowadays the plague is raging moreso in the Punjab. And in the Punjab especially the capital Lahore which is so near Amritsar (where Sanaullah lived). Fifth: "Your prayer can in no way settle the matter because a Muslim dying by the plague according to a Hadith is considered a martyr, so how by your prayer can a plague-smitten person be known to be a liar." Sanaullah concluded by saying: "In short, according to your request, I am ready to take an oath if you would disclose to me the outcome of this oath. And this writing (i.e., this prayer of yours) I DO NOT ACCEPT nor can any sensible person accept it."
Not only that, but in the margin of the very issue, the assistant editor appended the following text which was later on also testified as true by Sanaullah. The assistant editor wrote: "God gives long lives to those who are liars, deceitful, mischievous and disobedient so that during the time given to them they can do more of their evil deeds."

Sanaullah himself wrote: “Despite being a true prophet, the Holy Prophetsaw passed away before Musailma Kadhab, and even though Musailmah was a liar, he died after the truthful one” (Muraqqa-e-Qadiani, April 1907, Page 9)

So because of Sanaullah's rejection of the challenge, which was conditional to his acceptance of it, it was cancelled and subsequently Mirza Ghulam Ahmad died in 1908, while Sanaullah lived longer, which according to his own criterion made him the ultimate loser since "God gives long lives to those who are liars, deceitful, mischievous and disobedient so that during the time given to them they can do more of their evil deeds."

Remember that a Mubahala has to have both parties consent. The Christians of Najran refused to enter into Mubahala with the Prophet because they knew in their hearts he was true. The Prophet remarked that had they actually entered into the contest, they would have been utterly destroyed and made an example of. This proves that Mubahala has to have both parties active involvement in order for it to take effect. Since Sanaullah clearly refused to participate, therefore he was spared the effect like the Christians of Najran.
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Hadrami

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2017, 02:37:40 PM »
How can you claim you want to find truth if you're lying about who you are. You bashed everyone, but put so much effort to defend ghulam qadiyani. You're not a shia, why the need for taqiyya?

ZulFiqar

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2017, 08:29:44 PM »
How can you claim you want to find truth if you're lying about who you are. You bashed everyone, but put so much effort to defend ghulam qadiyani. You're not a shia, why the need for taqiyya?

I have already found the truth that's why I'm a Muslim. What do you mean I'm lying about who I am? I am a Muslim walhamdulillah, I assure you it's no lie nor is it taqiyya. And I am not in the business of bashing anyone.
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Muhammad Tazin

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2017, 12:55:26 PM »
why are we bickering about a blatant kafir!  He was not a Shia.
about the challenge, Sanaullah(rah) accepted it and was published in his Ahle Hadis paper.
And Mirza Ghulam died in shit soon

GreatChineseFall

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2017, 11:55:34 PM »
Sorry for the delayed response.

Yes it does make sense to call them as such. Do you think this distinction is not important?

Again, you are confusing two things here. I am not downplaying anything, the distinction is not what I am talking about and how you treat Sunni's is really irrelevant. What matters here is that you should not call someone a MUSLIM, ie a person who has submitted himself to Allah, if you do not believe him to be a person who has submitted himself to Allah. If you do that then that is deception, no matter how you twist it. Christians and Jews also receive a distinct treatment with respect to pagans but you don't call them with something they don't deserve.

Quote
And this isn't just exclusive to Sunnis and non-Shi'a, I have seen debates among Shi'a on whether the reality of the one who doesn't pray is a kafir, or whether he is kafir in the Afterlife, for there are sahih narrations which call him a kafir. But he is to be treated as a mu'min.

So if a person refuses to pay zakat or to pray salat, does he deserve protection from aggression? And if you are too weak to protect him from aggression, does he have a right to compensation or retribution when you are strong enough?

Also this question is interesting: If a Shi'i ruler is ruling a place with also Sunni Muslims and a Sunni Muslim apostates, does he need to be brought back to Sunni "Islam", which in reality is kufr or should he be brought "back" to Shi'i Islam, which in reality he never believed in to begin with?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2017, 02:51:51 PM »
Sorry for the delayed response.

Yes it does make sense to call them as such. Do you think this distinction is not important?

Again, you are confusing two things here. I am not downplaying anything, the distinction is not what I am talking about and how you treat Sunni's is really irrelevant. What matters here is that you should not call someone a MUSLIM, ie a person who has submitted himself to Allah, if you do not believe him to be a person who has submitted himself to Allah. If you do that then that is deception, no matter how you twist it. Christians and Jews also receive a distinct treatment with respect to pagans but you don't call them with something they don't deserve.

Quote
And this isn't just exclusive to Sunnis and non-Shi'a, I have seen debates among Shi'a on whether the reality of the one who doesn't pray is a kafir, or whether he is kafir in the Afterlife, for there are sahih narrations which call him a kafir. But he is to be treated as a mu'min.

So if a person refuses to pay zakat or to pray salat, does he deserve protection from aggression? And if you are too weak to protect him from aggression, does he have a right to compensation or retribution when you are strong enough?

Also this question is interesting: If a Shi'i ruler is ruling a place with also Sunni Muslims and a Sunni Muslim apostates, does he need to be brought back to Sunni "Islam", which in reality is kufr or should he be brought "back" to Shi'i Islam, which in reality he never believed in to begin with?

This is very much different. Whatever the differences between the pagans and the Ahlul Kitab, the distinction is nowhere near the same. First of all the reason why you are called Muslims, is like I said, due to dhahir. Now, you might say how you treat someone is irrelevant because  you believe they are in reality kafirs, but I disagree.

One example is: Hajj. Many Shi'i scholars will say that if someone performed Hajj when he was a Sunni, then became a Shi'i, it is not obligatory on him to repeat the Hajj. Do you think this is a small point?

As for apostasy, (btw most of our scholars say if a fitri Muslim apostates then the ruling is death upon him even if he returns) - but let's assume this person is a milli (was a kafir then became a Sunni Muslim, for example), he is given the chance to repent, he takes it, and returns back to Sunni Islam. That would be enough. There is no obligation to make him Shi'i.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hani

Re: Sunni sect was created by Jews
« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2017, 04:22:50 AM »
الإرجاء بمعنى التأخير ، وهم عندنا من إعتقد تأخير علي (ع) عن غيره و تقديم الثلاثة عليه ، ولما لم يمكنهم (ع) تكفير العامة ظاهراً ؛ كانوا يعبرون عنهم بالمرجئة.
روضة المتقين - محمد تقى مجلسي 7/ 429

[Irja' meaning to "place behind/Delay", They (Murji`ah) according to us (i.e Shia) are those who believe that `Ali (as) must be placed behind the first three (Caliphs). Seeing as though the Imams (as) were unable to openly declare the Kufr of the mainstream Muslims (Sunnies/`Amah), they would refer to them as Murji'ah.]

Rawdat al-Muttaqin 7/429 Muhammad Taqi Majlisi.

Basically, according to Majlisi, the 12 Imams couldn't openly declare Sunnies as Kouffar (due to Taqiyyah), so they began referring to them as "Murji'ah" (which is the name of another specific minority sect)
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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