TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: muslim720 on May 14, 2019, 08:58:47 PM
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Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
In order to prevent another Iceman in the making, I have opened this discussion topic to keep track of T110's blunders. Otherwise, I am afraid we have another Iceman in the making; someone unintelligent who likes to throw things at us without accounting for his own failures. I will update this discussion as he digs himself into a deeper hole because as is my belief, if you want to catch a Shia contradict himself or herself, you just let him or her talk. The more he or she talks, the deeper the hole they find themselves in.
His first lie is highlighted in the first attached image. T110 made the claim that Imam Bukhari (rah) and Imam Muslim (rah) quote "hadiths" from Umar ibn Sa'ad. He conveniently ignored my challenge to share a few such narrations.
Next, he claimed that neither I can prove that Bani Isra'il, after seeing Musa (asws) without his clothes, stopped circulating the rumors that Musa (asws) had defects nor he (T110) can prove that Bani Isra'il continued spreading the rumors. Amazingly, the proof is in the same narration he attacks which clearly says that after Bani Isra'il saw Musa (asws), they said, "By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body". His lie or naivety is on display in the second screenshot.
His dishonesty comes in full view in the third picture. In a deceptive move calling a hadith too long to quote, T110 wrote his own assessment and interpretation of various ahaadith instead of utilizing the simplest command known as copy-paste to share the full text of the ahaadith. Maybe it was out of convenience because the text of the ahaadith were enough to thwart his attacks.
We will keep this running list going until he goes into hiding. I have a feeling he will soon run out of material and will be faced with the daunting and impossible task of accounting for his own madhhab.
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I am here, just been busy in general and I have been looking for those hadiths in Al-bukhari and Al-Muslim.
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It’s inbred for them to make a scene and when confronted with reality they run with their tails between their legs😜
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It’s inbred for them to make a scene and when confronted with reality they run with their tails between their legs😜
He has been throwing out hadith after hadith from our sources but has failed to account for a single belief of his own.
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He has been throwing out hadith after hadith from our sources but has failed to account for a single belief of his own.
His beliefs are of fairytales of a hidden 1000 year old man that is still waiting for 313 solid Shias to be born so he can come out of the cave.........he is talking about private parts of prophets in a bad way well......his hidden guy let’s just say has been naked in waiting for over a thousand years.......i will leave it at that😜
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I am sat here crying whilst reading all the mean things that you guys are saying about me :'( :'( :'( :'( Pwease staph it :-[ :-[
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I am sat here crying whilst reading all the mean things that you guys are saying about me :'( :'( :'( :'( Pwease staph it :-[ :-[
You’ve been crying since your ancestors killed imam Hussein ra it’s in your blood......now go off and beat your head with a knife or something and be a real shiite😂😜👍
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Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
In order to prevent another Iceman in the making, I have opened this discussion topic to keep track of T110's blunders. Otherwise, I am afraid we have another Iceman in the making; someone unintelligent who likes to throw things at us without accounting for his own failures. I will update this discussion as he digs himself into a deeper hole because as is my belief, if you want to catch a Shia contradict himself or herself, you just let him or her talk. The more he or she talks, the deeper the hole they find themselves in.
His first lie is highlighted in the first attached image. T110 made the claim that Imam Bukhari (rah) and Imam Muslim (rah) quote "hadiths" from Umar ibn Sa'ad. He conveniently ignored my challenge to share a few such narrations.
Next, he claimed that neither I can prove that Bani Isra'il, after seeing Musa (asws) without his clothes, stopped circulating the rumors that Musa (asws) had defects nor he (T110) can prove that Bani Isra'il continued spreading the rumors. Amazingly, the proof is in the same narration he attacks which clearly says that after Bani Isra'il saw Musa (asws), they said, "By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body". His lie or naivety is on display in the second screenshot.
His dishonesty comes in full view in the third picture. In a deceptive move calling a hadith too long to quote, T110 wrote his own assessment and interpretation of various ahaadith instead of utilizing the simplest command known as copy-paste to share the full text of the ahaadith. Maybe it was out of convenience because the text of the ahaadith were enough to thwart his attacks.
We will keep this running list going until he goes into hiding. I have a feeling he will soon run out of material and will be faced with the daunting and impossible task of accounting for his own madhhab.
You speak as thought you're Mr Right and you have and can never get it wrong. I don't throw things at anyone let alone your kind. I have no interest. I'm just defending my faith and protecting my community from the likes of your kind. I deal with what's thrown at us on the basis of misunderstanding in some cases and on the basis of propaganda in most cases.
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That's as far as my position is concerned. Now this Ameen character, would you mind telling us which and what blunders he's made. Or do you really love accusing people and then not proving it.
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You speak as thought you're Mr Right and you have and can never get it wrong. I don't throw things at anyone let alone your kind. I have no interest. I'm just defending my faith and protecting my community from the likes of your kind.
If every on-the-fence Sunni gets a glimpse of how you defend your faith, he or she will actually swing to the other extreme and make takfeer on Shias for your lack of substance, coherence, honor and integrity.
I deal with what's thrown at us on the basis of misunderstanding in some cases and on the basis of propaganda in most cases.
Speaking of propaganda and throwing things at others, have you met T110?
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If every on-the-fence Sunni gets a glimpse of how you defend your faith, he or she will actually swing to the other extreme and make takfeer on Shias for your lack of substance, coherence, honor and integrity.
Speaking of propaganda and throwing things at others, have you met T110?
"If every on-the-fence Sunni gets a glimpse of how you defend your faith"
That's your words based on your opinion only. I don't and haven't seen Sunnis rushing up in numbers so he or she will actually swing to the other extreme and make takfeer on Shias. As far as takfeer on Shias is concerned not the Sunnis but a handful of people known as Sunni Deobandis do it. They don't just send or make takfeer on Shias but they also do it on Sunni barelvis. How long are you going to continue to fool people.
"for your lack of substance, coherence, honor and integrity"
As far as my honour and integrity is concerned Alhamdulillah I don't need to accuse and abuse others with false accusations and allegations just to make myself feel better and to give my faith a bit of weight and lift by undermining others. I don't need to do what you're doing and your ancestors for the past 1400 years.
"Speaking of propaganda and throwing things at others, have you met T110?"
I haven't met Ameen never mind about T100. So tell me why is this guy bugging you so much? What seems to be the problem.
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I haven't met Ameen never mind about T100. So tell me why is this guy bugging you so much? What seems to be the problem.
COZ he LIES and then runs off and hides or comes back with nonsense that’s what bugs us.
Remember YOU yourself posted a LIE and can’t even provide AUTHENTIC proof for it.
Have some shame ......Ameen aka Terminator T100 aka iceman
😂
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COZ he LIES and then runs off and hides or comes back with nonsense that’s what bugs us.
Remember YOU yourself posted a LIE and can’t even provide AUTHENTIC proof for it.
I am still searching for those hadiths which I promised will be provided. Atleast I have the "honour & integrity" to admit so. Meanwhile you guys are out here deleting 3 threads, not even started by me, in which I have made strong points in.
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COZ he LIES and then runs off and hides or comes back with nonsense that’s what bugs us.
Remember YOU yourself posted a LIE and can’t even provide AUTHENTIC proof for it.
Have some shame ......Ameen aka Terminator T100 aka iceman
😂
Where did I post a lie? Can you back it up?
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Where did I post a lie? Can you back it up?
STOP acting dumb! We know that’s what you are but you don’t need to act like it.
You posted just before you disappeared.........” Umar said don’t listen to him!”
YOU KNOW what I am talking about so don’t ACT dumb about now produce the evidence AUTHENTIC evidence.
Thankyou.
Don’t make us wait for s thousand years please.
😉
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I am still searching for those hadiths which I promised will be provided. Atleast I have the "honour & integrity" to admit so. Meanwhile you guys are out here deleting 3 threads, not even started by me, in which I have made strong points in.
We will wait for you to bring those ahaadith along with an unequivocal verse which says that "those who run away from battle are not believers". In the meantime, please enjoy the small violin playing and your flakes soaked in your tears.
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STOP acting dumb! We know that’s what you are but you don’t need to act like it.
You posted just before you disappeared.........” Umar said don’t listen to him!”
YOU KNOW what I am talking about so don’t ACT dumb about now produce the evidence AUTHENTIC evidence.
Thankyou.
Don’t make us wait for s thousand years please.
😉
I'm not acting dumb or daft, you are. You have accused me of something and I want evidence for it in black and white. This is not the first time I've been accused and it's not the first time you've made a joke out of yourself. Hiding behind sarcasm and belittling others won't help you.
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Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
With all due respect to the other posters, may I please have all the irrelevant comments removed by the admins? I want this discussion topic to reflect the points that T110 either deflect or fail to answer.
Thank you!
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I'm not acting dumb or daft, you are. You have accused me of something and I want evidence for it in black and white. This is not the first time I've been accused and it's not the first time you've made a joke out of yourself. Hiding behind sarcasm and belittling others won't help you.
I don’t need to belittle a LIAR like you here read this post and WEEP........you still haven’t answered on which authentic source you got this from, you’ve been HIDING since being asked.
This was your reply to bro hani .......
Re: Famous shia reply on Door Incident
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2019, 01:34:37 PM »
Quote from: Hani on February 21, 2019, 06:22:23 AM
According to the fabricated Shia story `Ali broke the Prophet's (saw) will and got Fatimah (as) killed as a result.
And according to a TRUE story one prevented the Prophet s.a.w from writing a will to begin with by saying,
"Don't listen to him, he s.a.w has become delirious, remember we have the book of Allah, the book of Allah is sufficient for us".
And others sided with him causing a division within them. Any thoughts on this big guy.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 01:38:34 PM by iceman »
Come on then big guy ANY authentic evidence on this?
You can’t deny that I didn’t give you proof in black and white, it’s been MONTHS and you still ain’t replied apart from giving your 2 bits of sarcasm and avoiding it by saying you don’t know NOTHING😜
“Don’t listen to him”!! Where did you pull that out from?!?
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Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
With all due respect to the other posters, may I please have all the irrelevant comments removed by the admins? I want this discussion topic to reflect the points that T110 either deflect or fail to answer.
Thank you!
Oh yeah!!! Are you also requesting for whole threads to be deleted which are "irrelevant" in showing your cult to be alligned with the truth??
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Oh yeah!!! Are you also requesting for whole threads to be deleted which are "irrelevant" in showing your cult to be alligned with the truth??
You have spoken freely and quite harshly without facing any consequences. Your user settings may be out-of-whack but a fraction of your antics would get any Sunni banned on ShiaChat. Having said that, I invite you to re-share anything you think has been removed. You have had the liberty thus far so go ahead and bring them again.
Also:
1. Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad.
2. Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects. Or better, apologize.
3. Show us where does the Qur'an say that those who run away in battles are disbelievers.
You cannot run from the running list.
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You have spoken freely and quite harshly without facing any consequences. Your user settings may be out-of-whack but a fraction of your antics would get any Sunni banned on ShiaChat. Having said that, I invite you to re-share anything you think has been removed. You have had the liberty thus far so go ahead and bring them again.
Also:
1. Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad.
2. Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects. Or better, apologize.
3. Show us where does the Qur'an say that those who run away in battles are disbelievers.
You cannot run from the running list.
This made me laugh,
"You have spoken freely and quite harshly without facing any consequences. Your user settings may be out-of-whack but a fraction of your antics would get any Sunni banned on ShiaChat"
Especially this bit,
"You have spoken freely and quite harshly without facing any consequences"
OH LOOK WHO'S TALKING!
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I don’t need to belittle a LIAR like you here read this post and WEEP........you still haven’t answered on which authentic source you got this from, you’ve been HIDING since being asked.
This was your reply to bro hani .......
Re: Famous shia reply on Door Incident
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2019, 01:34:37 PM »
Quote from: Hani on February 21, 2019, 06:22:23 AM
According to the fabricated Shia story `Ali broke the Prophet's (saw) will and got Fatimah (as) killed as a result.
And according to a TRUE story one prevented the Prophet s.a.w from writing a will to begin with by saying,
"Don't listen to him, he s.a.w has become delirious, remember we have the book of Allah, the book of Allah is sufficient for us".
And others sided with him causing a division within them. Any thoughts on this big guy.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 01:38:34 PM by iceman »
Come on then big guy ANY authentic evidence on this?
You can’t deny that I didn’t give you proof in black and white, it’s been MONTHS and you still ain’t replied apart from giving your 2 bits of sarcasm and avoiding it by saying you don’t know NOTHING😜
“Don’t listen to him”!! Where did you pull that out from?!?
I don't need to weep because what ever you kindergarten lads throw isn't difficult to handle. I put information forward. If any of it incorrect or you happen to disagree with it then that is a different matter. But you boys desperately need something to pin me with. That's your problem. If the information is incorrect then please correct it. Don't cry over it. It's information. If you believe anything I've put forward is incorrect then correct it. Don't use it for propaganda purposes.
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This made me laugh,
Other than looking into a mirror, my comment also made you laugh. Good!
OH LOOK WHO'S TALKING!
Exactly! Look who is talking?! Iceman! The Shi'i debater whose melting point is the starting point of any Shia-Sunni discussion. You should be the last one to have such grievances against this website which has tolerated your verbal diarrhea, lack of coherence, quality material, integrity and honesty.
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Other than looking into a mirror, my comment also made you laugh. Good!
Exactly! Look who is talking?! Iceman! The Shi'i debater whose melting point is the starting point of any Shia-Sunni discussion. You should be the last one to have such grievances against this website which has tolerated your verbal diarrhea, lack of coherence, quality material, integrity and honesty.
Oh dear, look who's talking again. What, this propaganda website. This site was created to undermine our faith and community. That's what you're doing. You're not pointing out certain bits and pieces of our faith and belief which you disagree with or certain members of our community whom you happen to disagree with. But you're trying to attack the whole community and challenge the entire faith and belief, just to lure people to follow your herd. Because you can't promote your own faith by talking about it. You just don't have that honour.
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Oh dear, look who's talking again. What, this propaganda website. This site was created to undermine our faith and community. That's what you're doing. You're not pointing out certain bits and pieces of our faith and belief which you disagree with or certain members of our community whom you happen to disagree with. But you're trying to attack the whole community and challenge the entire faith and belief, just to lure people to follow your herd. Because you can't promote your own faith by talking about it. You just don't have that honour.
Iceman, I will let you have the last word. Now please stop spamming my topic so that T110's failure to back up his claims are there for everyone to see. This topic is not for you. I am sure T110 needs no assistance from you to defend himself.
Thank you.
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Iceman, I will let you have the last word. Now please stop spamming my topic so that T110's failure to back up his claims are there for everyone to see. This topic is not for you. I am sure T110 needs no assistance from you to defend himself.
Thank you.
I'm not spamming your topic, your shooting your mouth off trying to create attention. Just stick to him and the subject being discussed.
"This topic is not for you"
Allow me to correct you by pointing out your blunder. Why is this topic not for me? Look at the title of the thread. Never mind about the topic I have a right to the thread. And you gave me that. 😀 At least get your facts right and in order before you open that mouth of yours.
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I don't need to weep because what ever you kindergarten lads throw isn't difficult to handle. I put information forward. If any of it incorrect or you happen to disagree with it then that is a different matter. But you boys desperately need something to pin me with. That's your problem. If the information is incorrect then please correct it. Don't cry over it. It's information. If you believe anything I've put forward is incorrect then correct it. Don't use it for propaganda purposes.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
What the hell is that gibberish???
YOU posted “Umar said don’t listen to him”!!
HAVE you got AUTHENTIC proof for that? Any AUTHENTIC book you got it from?
YOU posted the .......information.....and now YOU want me to correct it?
Have you been hitting your head that much that your brains making you write gibberish posts that make no sense?
Come on follower of ahlu baith you big man show is some guts.......if you post something at least tell us the source is this what followers of divine imams do? LIE
LIE
LIE????
😂😂😂😂😂
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How do you guys have the audacity to demand proofs in such a macho manner, all whilst some amongst you are deleting thread in which we hav mad strong and valid arguments.
Now I am not saying that you can't demand proof, that is your right. But the manner in which you are going about it, is simply hilarious. Just be patient and you will either get the proof or I will admit fault, Just dont delete the thread if succeed in doing so lol
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How do you guys have the audacity to demand proofs in such a macho manner, all whilst some amongst you are deleting thread in which we hav mad strong and valid arguments.
No one is deleting anything; check your own user settings or try a different browser. Basic troubleshooting is as simple as that. As said earlier, you are free to re-initiate the same discussion topics.
Now I am not saying that you can't demand proof
That is EXACTLY what you are saying. You are trying to wiggle out of a tight spot but the time-tested advice never fails. To trap a Shias, you allow them to talk; the more they talk, the deeper they dig their own grave.
Just be patient and you will either get the proof or I will admit fault, Just dont delete the thread if succeed in doing so lol
You did not name the third option, the one most convenient and most likely utilized by you; you will go into disappearance.
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😂😂😂😂😂😂
What the hell is that gibberish???
YOU posted “Umar said don’t listen to him”!!
HAVE you got AUTHENTIC proof for that? Any AUTHENTIC book you got it from?
YOU posted the .......information.....and now YOU want me to correct it?
Have you been hitting your head that much that your brains making you write gibberish posts that make no sense?
Come on follower of ahlu baith you big man show is some guts.......if you post something at least tell us the source is this what followers of divine imams do? LIE
LIE
LIE????
😂😂😂😂😂
The whole point is Umar and those who sided with him didn't give a toss what the Prophet s.a.w had to write. They weren't interested. You can twist and turn this as much as you want to save their character and reputation over this but it won't help. What is said and done is said and done. It is what it is.😆
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The whole point is Umar and those who sided with him didn't give a toss what the Prophet s.a.w had to write. They weren't interested. You can twist and turn this as much as you want to save their character and reputation over this but it won't help. What is said and done is said and done. It is what it is.😆
So to get YOUR point across you use UNAUTHENTIC material no matter what.
You can’t tarnish a man blessed to attain gardens with rivers flowing by using false propaganda, in the real world it doesn’t work.
I guess it is what it is and like the hadith of prophet pbuh states........
” قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " إِنِّي لأَنْظُرُ إِلَى شَيَاطِينِ الإِنْسِ وَالْجِنِّ قَدْ فَرُّوا مِنْ عُمَرَ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed I see the Shayatin among men and jinn have run from 'Umar."
Jami' at-Tirmidhi, Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3691
Only lies and false propaganda remains at your disposal now.😂
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The whole point is Umar and those who sided with him didn't give a toss what the Prophet s.a.w had to write.
Imam Ali (ra), equally, did not "give a toss what the Prophet (saw) had to write". His refusal or failure to bring pen and paper makes him just a partner-in-crime. It is an established fact that despite being present and having heard the request of the Prophet (saw), Imam Ali (ra) did not bring the requested stationery products. I will let you choose whether it was refusal or failure, both of which spell disaster for your madhhab.
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To return to the main purpose of this topic, we are awaiting for T110 to:
1. Present us ahaadith from Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim by way of Umar ibn Sa'ad.
2. Acknowledge that the narration regarding Musa (asws) says "By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body" and therefore he (T110) was wrong to claim that we do not know if Bani Isra'il stopped the rumor.
3. Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala.
My prediction was "I have a feeling he will soon run out of material and will be faced with the daunting and impossible task of accounting for his own madhhab". Seems to be the case, thus far!
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The whole point is Umar and those who sided with him didn't give a toss what the Prophet s.a.w had to write. They weren't interested. You can twist and turn this as much as you want to save their character and reputation over this but it won't help. What is said and done is said and done. It is what it is.😆
if you like making deductions from hadith taken in isolation, then this one will surely not be a pleasant exercise
Narrated `Ali bin Abi Talib:
That Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came to him and Fatima the daughter of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) at their house at night and said, "Won't you pray?" `Ali replied, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Our souls are in the Hands of Allah and when he wants us to get up, He makes us get up." When `Ali said that to him, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) left without saying anything to him. While the Prophet (ﷺ) was leaving, `Ali heard him striking his thigh (with his hand) and saying, "But man is quarrelsome more than anything else." (18.54)
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So to get YOUR point across you use UNAUTHENTIC material no matter what.
You can’t tarnish a man blessed to attain gardens with rivers flowing by using false propaganda, in the real world it doesn’t work.
I guess it is what it is and like the hadith of prophet pbuh states........
” قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم " إِنِّي لأَنْظُرُ إِلَى شَيَاطِينِ الإِنْسِ وَالْجِنِّ قَدْ فَرُّوا مِنْ عُمَرَ
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed I see the Shayatin among men and jinn have run from 'Umar."
Jami' at-Tirmidhi, Vol. 1, Book 46, Hadith 3691
Only lies and false propaganda remains at your disposal now.😂
Reality and facts isn't unauthentic material. Lets not even bother with material. Umar's response and action, along with those who sided and aided him, is crystal clear. His intentions behind it is also crystal clear. The only problem is that the likes of your kind are hell-bent in protecting him by looking for loopholes to twist and turn things around and make it into a dramatic situation. Raising objection and refusing for the pen and paper to be handed to him is one thing, but going further and saying that you have the book of Allah and that is sufficient for you or enough for you, what ever the exact words are. We don't need to play around with the words that what words did Umar exactly use. We only need to do this just to find an excuse and create a situation to protect him and those who sided with him. And in response jumping on to Ali and looking for lame and cheap excuses on him won't help the situation.
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Reality and facts isn't unauthentic material. Lets not even bother with material. Umar's response and action, along with those who sided and aided him, is crystal clear. His intentions behind it is also crystal clear. The only problem is that the likes of your kind are hell-bent in protecting him by looking for loopholes to twist and turn things around and make it into a dramatic situation. Raising objection and refusing for the pen and paper to be handed to him is one thing, but going further and saying that you have the book of Allah and that is sufficient for you or enough for you, what ever the exact words are. We don't need to play around with the words that what words did Umar exactly use. We only need to do this just to find an excuse and create a situation to protect him and those who sided with him. And in response jumping on to Ali and looking for lame and cheap excuses on him won't help the situation.
You’re the one using heresay as reality and facts and making lame and cheap excuses to make something out of nothing about Ali ra.
Your excuses and lies just make Ali ra look bad and you don’t even realise it.
I guess They Ali ra just looked on and accepted it just like when His wife got beat and burnt (shia theory) and walked away and let prophet pbuh pass away 3-4 days later without anything more to say.
I guess the emotions supplemented by false rumours really do over run authenticity as your post shows.
1400 years and you live and breath lies that you cannot even back up.
That is a pity!
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You’re the one using heresay as reality and facts and making lame and cheap excuses to make something out of nothing about Ali ra.
Your excuses and lies just make Ali ra look bad and you don’t even realise it.
I guess They Ali ra just looked on and accepted it just like when His wife got beat and burnt (shia theory) and walked away and let prophet pbuh pass away 3-4 days later without anything more to say.
I guess the emotions supplemented by false rumours really do over run authenticity as your post shows.
1400 years and you live and breath lies that you cannot even back up.
That is a pity!
😊😊😊 One case at a time. We're dealing with how Umar reacted by responding. Stick to the case and the person concerned. Don't start dragging in others just to complicate the case and turn it into a drama. If this was in court the judge would have warned and cautioned you for wasting time.
The Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper, why? So he may right something. How important is this something? So that you don't go astray after me. Yes and absolutely, that's how important it is. What was it? Well Umar most certainly had some idea about it. Otherwise he wouldn't have said to the people of the time."we have the book of Allah among us, that is sufficient for us". It's a clear objection and an absolute insult to the Prophet s.a.w.
It's a clear challenge to the Prophet s.a.w and a distraction to what the Prophet s.a.w had to offer. Now stick to the subject. You won't. Because you have everything to lose. All your kind do is look for things and twist and turn them around and mix them up to cause confusion and distraction. This is exactly what this site is about.
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if you like making deductions from hadith taken in isolation, then this one will surely not be a pleasant exercise
Narrated `Ali bin Abi Talib:
That Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came to him and Fatima the daughter of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) at their house at night and said, "Won't you pray?" `Ali replied, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Our souls are in the Hands of Allah and when he wants us to get up, He makes us get up." When `Ali said that to him, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) left without saying anything to him. While the Prophet (ﷺ) was leaving, `Ali heard him striking his thigh (with his hand) and saying, "But man is quarrelsome more than anything else." (18.54)
Thanks for putting this material forward. 😊 First of all this has got nothing to do with the pen and paper incident. And by bringing in such irrelevant material won't help Umar and the unfortunate situation he managed to get himself into.
Secondly we don't believe in the material that you've put forward. There's plenty of stuff like that created about Ali and his family for the only purpose of bringing their reputation to a lower level. And such material was created by the rulers of the time.
Especially those who had grudge against Ali and his family and offsprings. Those who got into authority and gained power did what ever they could to keep Ali, his family and offsprings away from office.
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The Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper, why?
To shut your trap, which won't happen but I will try, we will pretend that the Prophet (saw) was going to write Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah. Now you have a problem. Why write something that was already declared at Ghadeer (as your claim it was already announced at Ghadeer)?
So he may right something. How important is this something? So that you don't go astray after me. Yes and absolutely, that's how important it is. What was it?
Yes, yes very important. It - as we assumed - was Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah. Now you will have to account for one more thing, a point you have deflected in the past.
"When they (the people) had left (the room), he (the Prophet) said: 'Send back to me my brother (Ali) and my uncle (Abbas).' They sent for someone to call them and he brought them. When he had them sitting close, he (the Prophet) said: 'Uncle of the Apostle of Allah, will you accept my testamentary bequest (wasi), fulfill my promise, and carry out my religion?'
'Apostle of Allah, your uncle is an old man with the responsibilities of a large family,' answered Al-Abbas. 'You vie with the wind in liberality and generosity. You have made promises which your uncle could never fulfill.' Then he (the Prophet) turned to Ali ibn Abi Talib, and said: 'Brother, will you accept my testamentary bequest (wasi), fulfill my promises, carry out my religion on my behalf and look after the affairs of my family after me?'
'Yes, Apostle of Allah,' he (Ali) replied." source: Kitab Al-Irshad, by Shaykh Mufid, p.131
If Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah was announced at Ghadeer, why did the Prophet (saw) then offer it to Abbas (ra) before Imam Ali (ra)? And it seems to me that the Prophet (saw) - according to Shaykh Mufid - wanted to write the Wilayah of Abbas (ra), not Imam Ali (ra).
So here is the conundrum. The Prophet (saw) – according to Shia sources – called Imam Ali (ra) and Abbas (ra) into his room and he (saw) asked Abbas to be the Caliph. So why do you pretend that Umar (ra) wished to prevent the Prophet (saw) from writing the will in favor of Imam Ali (ra)? The Prophet (saw) gave priority and preference to Abbas (ra) so the Shia should say that Umar (ra) wished to prevent the Caliphate of Abbas. What a predicament and mess for the Shia. And what happened to Ghadeer Khum where the Prophet (saw) [allegedly] settled the matter of Caliphate and had entrusted it to Imam Ali (ra)?
If the Prophet (saw) went to great lengths to ensure Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah then why did he (saw) first offer it to Abbas (ra)? When the Prophet (saw) extended the offer to Abbas (ra), why didn’t Abbas (ra) look at the Prophet (saw) incredulously and say “but you already announced it for Ali at Ghadeer Khum”?
Now we will see your excuses and expert dance moves around the points raised. It is not your fault; you were raised spineless!
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😊😊😊 One case at a time. We're dealing with how Umar reacted by responding. Stick to the case and the person concerned. Don't start dragging in others just to complicate the case and turn it into a drama. If this was in court the judge would have warned and cautioned you for wasting time.
The Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper, why? So he may right something. How important is this something? So that you don't go astray after me. Yes and absolutely, that's how important it is. What was it? Well Umar most certainly had some idea about it. Otherwise he wouldn't have said to the people of the time."we have the book of Allah among us, that is sufficient for us". It's a clear objection and an absolute insult to the Prophet s.a.w.
It's a clear challenge to the Prophet s.a.w and a distraction to what the Prophet s.a.w had to offer. Now stick to the subject. You won't. Because you have everything to lose. All your kind do is look for things and twist and turn them around and mix them up to cause confusion and distraction. This is exactly what this site is about.
IF it was in court then it was UPTO you to provide the evidence of Umar ra saying......”don’t listen to him”!
They would throw YOU and your reality and facts based on assumptions out or lock you up for wasting court time.
It really is a shame you can’t move forward from that a real big shame.😂
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IF it was in court then it was UPTO you to provide the evidence of Umar ra saying......”don’t listen to him”!
They would throw YOU and your reality and facts based on assumptions out or lock you up for wasting court time.
It really is a shame you can’t move forward from that a real big shame.😂
You know the truth and you know what happened. The courts would have slammed the case based on basis of interruption and objection while the Prophet s.a.w is speaking and demanding. No one cares about the intentions and words. Only those who are hell-bent in protecting Umar and his clan. 😊
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The Holy Prophet (s) requests that writing materials be brought to him
This is what we read in Sahih al-Bukhari as narrated by Ibn 'Abbas:
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.
Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573
You can blame others who sided along with Umar but Umar's name clearly appears and he was the cause of this. I know the guilt is killing you inside our. But there's no way you can brush this under the carpet 😊 What's done is done. The Ummah went astray because Umar said "the book of Allah is sufficient for is". The Prophet s.a.w new that the book of Allah alone wasn't sufficient. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked for the pen and paper.
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You know the truth and you know what happened. The courts would have slammed the case based on basis of interruption and objection while the Prophet s.a.w is speaking and demanding. No one cares about the intentions and words. Only those who are hell-bent in protecting Umar and his clan. 😊
The argument is you LIED in court from the start,You produced evidence based on heresay.........”Umar said don’t listen to him”!
You have no way of backing such an accusation like before with the divine Imamate thread what we had, you are dancing around without answering the relevant question.
You thought you will LIE and make it look and sound more dramatic and emotional........we ain’t Shias that let emotions rule our judgments.
Your lies make Ali ra look bad too.
A real shame especially if you portray yourselves as shia of Ali ra.......Tut Tut Tut!
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The Holy Prophet (s) requests that writing materials be brought to him
This is what we read in Sahih al-Bukhari as narrated by Ibn 'Abbas:
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said: "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Qur'an, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing a statement for them.
Sahih al Bukhari Arabic-English Volume 9 hadith number 468 and Volume 7 hadith 573
You can blame others who sided along with Umar but Umar's name clearly appears and he was the cause of this. I know the guilt is killing you inside our. But there's no way you can brush this under the carpet 😊 What's done is done. The Ummah went astray because Umar said "the book of Allah is sufficient for is". The Prophet s.a.w new that the book of Allah alone wasn't sufficient. Otherwise he wouldn't have asked for the pen and paper.
No guilt at all,we aren’t the ones using lies to make it look more serious.........”Umar said don’t listen to him”!
That was what you posted and NOW.........you are posting an original report.
Why did you post a lie?
At least be a man a real shia of Ali ra and ADMIT you don’t know the authenticity of what you posted and stop acting like those Shias whom Ali ra cursed whom Hassan ra cursed and the ones calling Hussein ra and then running away like cowards.
That is so shameful.
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No guilt at all,we aren’t the ones using lies to make it look more serious.........”Umar said don’t listen to him”!
That was what you posted and NOW.........you are posting an original report.
Why did you post a lie?
At least be a man a real shia of Ali ra and ADMIT you don’t know the authenticity of what you posted and stop acting like those Shias whom Ali ra cursed whom Hassan ra cursed and the ones calling Hussein ra and then running away like cowards.
That is so shameful.
The guilt is in your words and how you're reacting.
"NOW.........you are posting an original report"
Thanks for accepting. 😊
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The guilt is in your words and how you're reacting.
"NOW.........you are posting an original report"
Thanks for accepting. 😊
It’s not me who posted a lie so no guilt from here.
YOU DID post a lie thats just a real pity a shia of a divine being uses heresay as evidence and is ashamed of being wrong when he is wrong. Tut tut tut.
You drag imam Ali ra’s reputation down by using lies and insinuating others could STOP a prophet from writing something SO important that even Ali ra couldn’t do nought even for the next 4 days.
Oh how shameful tut tut tut!
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I noticed you completely missed the post before this one to come back with a childish remark/comment as is always the case with you iceman.
A real shiane Ali tactic.😉
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Let us see if you will try to run away from my post for a third time.
The Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper, why?
To shut your trap, which won't happen but I will try, we will pretend that the Prophet (saw) was going to write Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah. Now you have a problem. Why write something that was already declared at Ghadeer (as your claim it was already announced at Ghadeer)?
So he may right something. How important is this something? So that you don't go astray after me. Yes and absolutely, that's how important it is. What was it?
Yes, yes very important. It - as we assumed - was Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah. Now you will have to account for one more thing, a point you have deflected in the past.
"When they (the people) had left (the room), he (the Prophet) said: 'Send back to me my brother (Ali) and my uncle (Abbas).' They sent for someone to call them and he brought them. When he had them sitting close, he (the Prophet) said: 'Uncle of the Apostle of Allah, will you accept my testamentary bequest (wasi), fulfill my promise, and carry out my religion?'
'Apostle of Allah, your uncle is an old man with the responsibilities of a large family,' answered Al-Abbas. 'You vie with the wind in liberality and generosity. You have made promises which your uncle could never fulfill.' Then he (the Prophet) turned to Ali ibn Abi Talib, and said: 'Brother, will you accept my testamentary bequest (wasi), fulfill my promises, carry out my religion on my behalf and look after the affairs of my family after me?'
'Yes, Apostle of Allah,' he (Ali) replied." source: Kitab Al-Irshad, by Shaykh Mufid, p.131
If Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah was announced at Ghadeer, why did the Prophet (saw) then offer it to Abbas (ra) before Imam Ali (ra)? And it seems to me that the Prophet (saw) - according to Shaykh Mufid - wanted to write the Wilayah of Abbas (ra), not Imam Ali (ra).
So here is the conundrum. The Prophet (saw) – according to Shia sources – called Imam Ali (ra) and Abbas (ra) into his room and he (saw) asked Abbas to be the Caliph. So why do you pretend that Umar (ra) wished to prevent the Prophet (saw) from writing the will in favor of Imam Ali (ra)? The Prophet (saw) gave priority and preference to Abbas (ra) so the Shia should say that Umar (ra) wished to prevent the Caliphate of Abbas. What a predicament and mess for the Shia. And what happened to Ghadeer Khum where the Prophet (saw) [allegedly] settled the matter of Caliphate and had entrusted it to Imam Ali (ra)?
If the Prophet (saw) went to great lengths to ensure Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah then why did he (saw) first offer it to Abbas (ra)? When the Prophet (saw) extended the offer to Abbas (ra), why didn’t Abbas (ra) look at the Prophet (saw) incredulously and say “but you already announced it for Ali at Ghadeer Khum”?
Now we will see your excuses and expert dance moves around the points raised. It is not your fault; you were raised spineless!
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Let us see if you will try to run away from my post for a third time.
To shut your trap, which won't happen but I will try, we will pretend that the Prophet (saw) was going to write Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah. Now you have a problem. Why write something that was already declared at Ghadeer (as your claim it was already announced at Ghadeer)?
Yes, yes very important. It - as we assumed - was Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah. Now you will have to account for one more thing, a point you have deflected in the past.
"When they (the people) had left (the room), he (the Prophet) said: 'Send back to me my brother (Ali) and my uncle (Abbas).' They sent for someone to call them and he brought them. When he had them sitting close, he (the Prophet) said: 'Uncle of the Apostle of Allah, will you accept my testamentary bequest (wasi), fulfill my promise, and carry out my religion?'
'Apostle of Allah, your uncle is an old man with the responsibilities of a large family,' answered Al-Abbas. 'You vie with the wind in liberality and generosity. You have made promises which your uncle could never fulfill.' Then he (the Prophet) turned to Ali ibn Abi Talib, and said: 'Brother, will you accept my testamentary bequest (wasi), fulfill my promises, carry out my religion on my behalf and look after the affairs of my family after me?'
'Yes, Apostle of Allah,' he (Ali) replied." source: Kitab Al-Irshad, by Shaykh Mufid, p.131
If Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah was announced at Ghadeer, why did the Prophet (saw) then offer it to Abbas (ra) before Imam Ali (ra)? And it seems to me that the Prophet (saw) - according to Shaykh Mufid - wanted to write the Wilayah of Abbas (ra), not Imam Ali (ra).
So here is the conundrum. The Prophet (saw) – according to Shia sources – called Imam Ali (ra) and Abbas (ra) into his room and he (saw) asked Abbas to be the Caliph. So why do you pretend that Umar (ra) wished to prevent the Prophet (saw) from writing the will in favor of Imam Ali (ra)? The Prophet (saw) gave priority and preference to Abbas (ra) so the Shia should say that Umar (ra) wished to prevent the Caliphate of Abbas. What a predicament and mess for the Shia. And what happened to Ghadeer Khum where the Prophet (saw) [allegedly] settled the matter of Caliphate and had entrusted it to Imam Ali (ra)?
If the Prophet (saw) went to great lengths to ensure Imam Ali's (ra) Wilayah then why did he (saw) first offer it to Abbas (ra)? When the Prophet (saw) extended the offer to Abbas (ra), why didn’t Abbas (ra) look at the Prophet (saw) incredulously and say “but you already announced it for Ali at Ghadeer Khum”?
Now we will see your excuses and expert dance moves around the points raised. It is not your fault; you were raised spineless!
"Let us see if you will try to run away from my post for a third time"
I don't run away from anyone. Certainly not from someone like you.
"To shut your trap" Well who's going to shut yours. Me I guess.
"which won't happen but I will try"
Well what's the point of trying when you know you're going to fail again miserably.
Don't start running forward here and there just to avoid reality and facts.
"we will pretend" No need to PRETEND, stick to the facts. What exactly was the Prophet s.a.w going to write is the second part/phase. Stick to and clear the first one. What ever was going to be written was very important and was coming from THE MAN himself and no ordinary individual.
Umar, yes he objected not for the reason that the Prophet s.a.w shouldn't be bothered with such a burden in the state and condition that he is but the second statement tells it all and cleats it. "We have the book of Allah with us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us".
This clearly means that we aren't bothered or concerned with what you're going to write. We don't think it's necessary and important because we have the book of Allah with us and we think that is sufficient for us. You can do what ever you like and take this in what ever direction you want. But you can't protect and defend Umar or hide or camouflage his intentions on this and his attitude and behaviour towards the Prophet s.a.w. Jump up and down all you like.
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Thanks for putting this material forward. 😊 First of all this has got nothing to do with the pen and paper incident. And by bringing in such irrelevant material won't help Umar and the unfortunate situation he managed to get himself into.
Secondly we don't believe in the material that you've put forward. There's plenty of stuff like that created about Ali and his family for the only purpose of bringing their reputation to a lower level. And such material was created by the rulers of the time.
Especially those who had grudge against Ali and his family and offsprings. Those who got into authority and gained power did what ever they could to keep Ali, his family and offsprings away from office.
Thanks for putting this material forward. 😊 First of all this has got nothing to do with the pen and paper incident
well it was only to demonstrate how hadith picked in isolation isnt what sunni muslims take there understanding from.
and it is not reserved for one odd case, but for all the companions in general, if we where to think like you suggest us, then one could offer a strong case for umar( r.a) but you had none for ALI (r.a), considering his outright denial to pray as prophet(s.a.w) told, who knows if there was one complementing statement which isnt available to us today and represented the case of ALI r.a better, after all ALLAH has promised preservation of deen not details of every single incident in the life of sahaba
And by bringing in such irrelevant material won't help Umar and the unfortunate situation he managed to get himself into
only shias are in unfortunate situation, believing lying to be a part of religion since imam zaman disappeared
Secondly we don't believe in the material that you've put forward. There's plenty of stuff like that created about Ali and his family for the only purpose of bringing their reputation to a lower level. And such material was created by the rulers of the time.
is that the reason, the books of hadith are filled with praise of ALI R.A and his faimly, and many times from the "people in the office",our brother farid says
if you want to clear evidence about murder, you dont leave loaded gun behind
from the little i have read, i dont know if there is a hadith which bundles together ten merits of any companion except ALI R.A ,who cares what you believe is fabricated and what you dont, you be like pen and paper- bokhari , it "belittles" umar, beautiful ,authentic, reliable and "usable" against sunnis. ah! ALI R.A NOT PRAYING AGAIN IN- BOKHARI, ah ugly fabrication....
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one more mention of writing, in muslim now, was it prophet (s.a.w ) wanted to write this
A'isha reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) in his (last) illness asked me to call Abu Bakr, her father, and her brother too, so that he might write a document, for he feared that someone else might be desirous (of succeeding him) and that some claimant may say:
I have better claim to it, whereas Allah and the Faithful do not substantiate the claim of anyone but that of Abu Bakr.
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one more mention of writing, in muslim now, was it prophet (s.a.w ) wanted to write this
A'isha reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) in his (last) illness asked me to call Abu Bakr, her father, and her brother too, so that he might write a document, for he feared that someone else might be desirous (of succeeding him) and that some claimant may say:
I have better claim to it, whereas Allah and the Faithful do not substantiate the claim of anyone but that of Abu Bakr.
This guy ONLY cherry picks what he has been taught and yet he still posts LIES.....”Umar said don’t listen to him”.....the guy is full of emotions as well as you know what,the above hadith rips his theory of divine imam rulership up and all he does is TROLL as can be seen by his replies to me........it’s not even Muharram yet!😜
He is all over the place he won’t come with a befitting reply but just nonsense like he has been doing since he joined up just false propaganda and then ..........goes away following the sunnah of his hidden imam😉
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well it was only to demonstrate how hadith picked in isolation isnt what sunni muslims take there understanding from.
and it is not reserved for one odd case, but for all the companions in general, if we where to think like you suggest us, then one could offer a strong case for umar( r.a) but you had none for ALI (r.a), considering his outright denial to pray as prophet(s.a.w) told, who knows if there was one complementing statement which isnt available to us today and represented the case of ALI r.a better, after all ALLAH has promised preservation of deen not details of every single incident in the life of sahabaonly shias are in unfortunate situation, believing lying to be a part of religion since imam zaman disappearedis that the reason, the books of hadith are filled with praise of ALI R.A and his faimly, and many times from the "people in the office",our brother farid says
if you want to clear evidence about murder, you dont leave loaded gun behind
from the little i have read, i dont know if there is a hadith which bundles together ten merits of any companion except ALI R.A ,who cares what you believe is fabricated and what you dont, you be like pen and paper- bokhari , it "belittles" umar, beautiful ,authentic, reliable and "usable" against sunnis. ah! ALI R.A NOT PRAYING AGAIN IN- BOKHARI, ah ugly fabrication....
"but you had none for ALI (r.a), considering his outright denial to pray as prophet(s.a.w) told"
I've got plenty, not for Ali as you put it. I don't talk about people or personalities like you do. First of all it isn't about Umar but his response and action and those who sided with him. It's them siding and not them in person. Your kind keep bringing in Ali and try to make it personal. The material you've put forward about Ali I don't accept that. Why? Because it goes against the character and nature of Ali. By all means say the same about Umar and disregard the material about him and label it unauthentic.
But what the problem is that you accept how Umar reacted but you are struggling to justify his action by looking for material on Ali. I don't expect you to think like I suggest. I expect you to think rationally and stop being bias. No one belittles Umar. That's the card you play. It's not about Umar or anyone else but about the response and action. You don't criticise and condemn the individual but what they said and did in the form of response and action. We all know those who got into authority and gained power their focus has been to persecute the Ahle Baith and their followers.
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"but you had none for ALI (r.a), considering his outright denial to pray as prophet(s.a.w) told"
I've got plenty, not for Ali as you put it. I don't talk about people or personalities like you do. First of all it isn't about Umar but his response and action and those who sided with him. It's them siding and not them in person. Your kind keep bringing in Ali and try to make it personal. The material you've put forward about Ali I don't accept that. Why? Because it goes against the character and nature of Ali. By all means say the same about Umar and disregard the material about him and label it unauthentic.
But what the problem is that you accept how Umar reacted but you are struggling to justify his action by looking for material on Ali. I don't expect you to think like I suggest. I expect you to think rationally and stop being bias. No one belittles Umar. That's the card you play. It's not about Umar or anyone else but about the response and action. You don't criticise and condemn the individual but what they said and did in the form of response and action. We all know those who got into authority and gained power their focus has been to persecute the Ahle Baith and their followers.
I've got plenty, not for Ali as you put it. I don't talk about people or personalities like you do. First of all it isn't about Umar but his response and action and those who sided with him. It's them siding and not them in person. Your kind keep bringing in Ali and try to make it personal. The material you've put forward about Ali I don't accept that. Why? Because it goes against the character and nature of Ali. By all means say the same about Umar and disregard the material about him and label it unauthentic.
to us the narration brings no change in character or person of ALI( R.A), even if one chooses to understand it like some pure translation, the point you are not getting is that a sunni would never pick a hadeth in isolation and jump hurrah! thus companions guilty, after the general praise and explicit attestation of there character by prophet (s.a.w), what is flimsy has to be interpreted in the light of what is detailed.
you have to problems with narration
1. why stopped?
answer:out of care for prophet(s.a.w)
2.why say we have quran and it is sufficient
answer a) he was buying time
a) prophet (s.a.w) himself in the hadeeth at thaqalayn told people to hold on to quran
b) umar r.a never knew prophet s.a.w was to leave, that is the reason, upon the death of prophet( s.a.w )he said i will strike off head of every being who says the prophet s.a.w passed away.
3. ummah was deprived of some guidance?
answer: ALLAH had perfected the religion on hajjatul wida and also we read on muslim whatever prophet s.a.w was to have written, he already said what ever he was to say
Sa'id b. Jubair reported that Ibn 'Abbas said:
Thursday, (and then said): What is this Thursday? He then wept so much that his tears moistened the pebbles. I said: Ibn 'Abbas, what is (significant) about Thursday? He (Ibn 'Abbas) said: The illness of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) took a serious turn (on this day), and he said: Come to me, so that I should write for you a document that you may not go astray after me. They (the Companions around him) disputed, and it is not meet to dispute in the presence of the Apostle. They said: How is lie (Allah's Apostle)? Has he lost his consciousness? Try to learn from him (this point). He (the Holy Prophet) said: Leave me. I am better in the state (than the one in which you are engaged). I make a will about three things:Turn out the polytheists from the territory of Arabia; show hospitality to the (foreign) delegations as I used to show them hospitality. He (the narrator) said: He (Ibn Abbas) kept silent on the third point, or he (the narrator) said: But I forgot that.
This hadith was mentioned through another chain.
with that said let us see if ibn abbas r.a an eye witness and key reporter of this incident thought about umar(r.a ), if any his words are of worth not mere speculations and extrapolations
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Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:
When `Umar was stabbed, he showed signs of agony. Ibn `Abbas, as if intending to encourage `Umar, said to him, "O Chief of the believers! Never mind what has happened to you, for you have been in the company of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and you kept good relations with him and you parted with him while he was pleased with you. Then you were in the company of Abu Bakr and kept good relations with him and you parted with him (i.e. he died) while he was pleased with you. Then you were in the company of the Muslims, and you kept good relations with them, and if you leave them, you will leave them while they are pleased with you." `Umar said, (to Ibn "Abbas), "As for what you have said about the company of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and his being pleased with me, it is a favor, Allah did to me; and as for what you have said about the company of Abu Bakr and his being pleased with me, it is a favor Allah did to me; and concerning my impatience which you see, is because of you and your companions. By Allah! If (at all) I had gold equal to the earth, I would have ransomed myself with it from the Punishment of Allah before I meet Him."
from bukhari and credits to twelvershia.net
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one has to also look how ALI (r.a) viewed umar( r.a)
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
While I was standing amongst the people who were invoking Allah for `Umar bin Al-Khattab who was lying (dead) on his bed, a man behind me rested his elbows on my shoulder and said, "(O `Umar!) May Allah bestow His Mercy on you. I always hoped that Allah will keep you with your two companions, for I often heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "I, Abu Bakr and `Umar were (somewhere). I, Abu Bakr and `Umar did (something). I, Abu Bakr and `Umar set out.' So I hoped that Allah will keep you with both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was `Ali bin Abi Talib.
it appears that ibn abbas(r.a) has narrated a enough to bury all slanders against umar (r.a)
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"but you had none for ALI (r.a), considering his outright denial to pray as prophet(s.a.w) told"
But what the problem is that you accept how Umar reacted but you are struggling to justify his action by looking for material on Ali. I don't expect you to think like I suggest. I expect you to think rationally and stop being bias. No one belittles Umar. That's the card you play. It's not about Umar or anyone else but about the response and action. You don't criticise and condemn the individual but what they said and did in the form of response and action. We all know those who got into authority and gained power their focus has been to persecute the Ahle Baith and their followers.
well apart from the emotional stuff, again you are not getting the point "hadith in isolation score no grades"
with that said, it i ramadan, i may not turn around to respond, better let this thread for brother muslims points make a separate thread, you may copy exchanges made here
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Well what's the point of trying when you know you're going to fail again miserably.
I fail to shut your trap because you conflate quantity with quality. However, your cowardice, helplessness and pathetic attempts at answering our questions is a constant reminder for every Shi'i passing by this website that your anecdotal stories of debates might be a huge success inside your Husseiniyat but they fail when emulated in a real-life discussion.
Don't start running forward here and there just to avoid reality and facts.
I showed you a progression of events according to Shaykh Mufid. Quoting Kitab al-Irshad by Mufid is avoiding reality and facts? It is believed that the title "al-Mufid" was given to him by the 12th Imam (ra) and he was a student of by Al-Shaykh al-Saduq, Ibn Qulawayh, Abu Abdallah al-Basri and and Sharif al-Murtaza and Shaykh Tusi were among his students.
Umar, yes he objected not for the reason that the Prophet s.a.w shouldn't be bothered with such a burden in the state and condition that he is but the second statement tells it all and cleats it. "We have the book of Allah with us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us".
For the sake of argument, we will pretend that Umar (ra) did exactly as you charge him. Now answer me:
1. Why did Imam Ali (ra) fail to bring pen and paper?
2. Why did the Prophet (saw), after having declared the Wilayah of Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer [as is your belief], had to write the Will for his Wilayah?
3. Why did the Prophet (saw), after having declared the Wilayah of Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer [as is your belief], offered the Wilayah to Abbas (ra) [according to Shaykh Mufid in Kitab al-Irshad]?
Now we will see you bust out the same outdated moves to dance around these points.
This clearly means that we aren't bothered or concerned with what you're going to write. We don't think it's necessary and important because we have the book of Allah with us and we think that is sufficient for us.
Imam Ali (ra) also stood by and did not bring pen and paper.
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I fail to shut your trap because you conflate quantity with quality. However, your cowardice, helplessness and pathetic attempts at answering our questions is a constant reminder for every Shi'i passing by this website that your anecdotal stories of debates might be a huge success inside your Husseiniyat but they fail when emulated in a real-life discussion.
I showed you a progression of events according to Shaykh Mufid. Quoting Kitab al-Irshad by Mufid is avoiding reality and facts? It is believed that the title "al-Mufid" was given to him by the 12th Imam (ra) and he was a student of by Al-Shaykh al-Saduq, Ibn Qulawayh, Abu Abdallah al-Basri and and Sharif al-Murtaza and Shaykh Tusi were among his students.
For the sake of argument, we will pretend that Umar (ra) did exactly as you charge him. Now answer me:
1. Why did Imam Ali (ra) fail to bring pen and paper?
2. Why did the Prophet (saw), after having declared the Wilayah of Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer [as is your belief], had to write the Will for his Wilayah?
3. Why did the Prophet (saw), after having declared the Wilayah of Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer [as is your belief], offered the Wilayah to Abbas (ra) [according to Shaykh Mufid in Kitab al-Irshad]?
Now we will see you bust out the same outdated moves to dance around these points.
Imam Ali (ra) also stood by and did not bring pen and paper.
You fail to shut my trap because you lack in intelligence and intellect. Because you come back with horns on your head as though you've been personally attacked rather than a rational response.
"For the sake of argument, we will pretend that Umar (ra) did exactly as you charge him" as long as your in 'for the sake of the argument' you're in constant denial of the facts. Like I said you can't protect him. What is said and done is said and done.
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"Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not. Those who lower their voices in the presence of Allah’s Messenger PBUH, they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for piety. For them is forgiveness and a great reward"
Quran: 49: 2- 3
Now the above verses were revealed well before the pen and paper incident. This means certain Companions were guilty of this before as well where they were told off severely and harshly. Lets not be hell-bent in protecting them so badly.
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You fail to shut my trap because you lack in intelligence and intellect.
If what you possess is intelligence, I would proudly declare myself as the most unintelligent being.
Because you come back with horns on your head as though you've been personally attacked rather than a rational response.
Here is a fine example of your intelligence. You claim I respond as though I was personally attacked but you are actually doing the very same thing you accuse me of.
"Because you come back with horns on your head as though you've been personally attacked rather than a rational response".
Like I said you can't protect him. What is said and done is said and done.
So, it is clear that Imam Ali (ra) stood around not moving a muscle to advance the wish of the Prophet (saw). And al-Mufid narrated that Wilayah was first offered to Abbas (ra) after it was declared for Imam Ali (ra) at Ghadeer and you cannot even begin to offer a response. What a shame! LOL!
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"Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not. Those who lower their voices in the presence of Allah’s Messenger PBUH, they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for piety. For them is forgiveness and a great reward"
Quran: 49: 2- 3
Now the above verses were revealed well before the pen and paper incident. This means certain Companions were guilty of this before as well where they were told off severely and harshly. Lets not be hell-bent in protecting them so badly.
Watch how your daddy-in-ideology was humiliated on the same verses.
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Watch how your daddy-in-ideology was humiliated on the same verses.
I don't watch or look for excuses son. You carry on.
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I don't watch or look for excuses son. You carry on.
It is not an excuse, ya jahil! Your daddy-in-ideology cited those verses and was utterly humiliated and the coward you are, you won't even look at (or watch) the response to your own claim. You are like an idiot who has his eyes closed shut, fingers in his ears and screaming "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" over and over again.
Numerous stories of debates and discussions being recited from the podium of your masaajid and you all cannot even confront a half-informed Sunni, lolll!
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It is not an excuse, ya jahil! Your daddy-in-ideology cited those verses and was utterly humiliated and the coward you are, you won't even look at (or watch) the response to your own claim. You are like an idiot who has his eyes closed shut, fingers in his ears and screaming "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" over and over again.
Numerous stories of debates and discussions being recited from the podium of your masaajid and you all cannot even confront a half-informed Sunni, lolll!
Bro he is DUMB, the guy makes false statements and when confronted he turns ........DUMB!
dumb
/dʌm/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
temporarily unable or unwilling to speak.
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
synonyms: speechless, tongue-tied, wordless, silent, at a loss for words, voiceless, inarticulate, taciturn, uncommunicative, untalkative, tight-lipped, close-mouthed, saying nothing; informalmum
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
No other words for him 😊
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Bro he is DUMB, the guy makes false statements and when confronted he turns ........DUMB!
I have yet to meet another Shi'i who is as dumb as him. To the credit of other Shi'i, when you twist their arm, they throw a tantrum, maybe curse the Sahaba (ra) and run from the discussion.
This degenerate, on the other hand, keeps coming back while ignoring everything said to him.
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"Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not. Those who lower their voices in the presence of Allah’s Messenger PBUH, they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for piety. For them is forgiveness and a great reward"
Quran: 49: 2- 3
Now the above verses were revealed well before the pen and paper incident. This means certain Companions were guilty of this before as well where they were told off severely and harshly. Lets not be hell-bent in protecting them so badly.
how do you know it is talking about companions of prophet(s.a.w)
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It is not an excuse, ya jahil! Your daddy-in-ideology cited those verses and was utterly humiliated and the coward you are, you won't even look at (or watch) the response to your own claim. You are like an idiot who has his eyes closed shut, fingers in his ears and screaming "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" over and over again.
Numerous stories of debates and discussions being recited from the podium of your masaajid and you all cannot even confront a half-informed Sunni, lolll!
Calm down son, relax. Don't get yourself in a twist.
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how do you know it is talking about companions of prophet(s.a.w)
That's the best joke I've heard. Nice one!
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Calm down son, relax. Don't get yourself in a twist.
Haha, still not addressing the video response. No wonder your 12th Imam is in hiding and awaiting on 313 men. With this type of cowardice and lack of integrity that plagues your community, I now see why y'all cannot even put 313 men together, lol.
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That's the best joke I've heard. Nice one!
The joke is there are 12 divine leaders and the last one is hiding for the last millennia scared of Sunnis wanting 313 hard shia men to help him😂😂😂😂👍
A brilliant joke to share with your families 😂😂😂
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That's the best joke I've heard. Nice one!
i didnt know i m humorous, by the bye could you educate me how these verses refer to companions of prophet s.a.w
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The joke is there are 12 divine leaders and the last one is hiding for the last millennia scared of Sunnis wanting 313 hard shia men to help him😂😂😂😂👍
A brilliant joke to share with your families 😂😂😂
You keep forgetting when you mention HIDING that there are two more, Jesus and Khizar. Have you fallen out with those two as well 😊
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i didnt know i m humorous, by the bye could you educate me how these verses refer to companions of prophet s.a.w
What's the definition of a companion of the Prophet s.a.w? Define who is a companion and who isn't.
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Haha, still not addressing the video response. No wonder your 12th Imam is in hiding and awaiting on 313 men. With this type of cowardice and lack of integrity that plagues your community, I now see why y'all cannot even put 313 men together, lol.
There are two more in hiding, Jesus and Khizar. How come you never touch them. Because you're brainwashed right from the beginning and programmed just to focus on certain bits like robots.
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You keep forgetting when you mention HIDING that there are two more, Jesus and Khizar. Have you fallen out with those two as well 😊
Well..........They don’t need 313 exact hardmen to comeback and kill the Sunnis, only one certain individual hiding for the last millennia will do that to Sunnis so I haven’t fallen out with the 2 you mentioned, that one joker is enough for a good laugh.😜😂👍
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What's the definition of a companion of the Prophet s.a.w? Define who is a companion and who isn't.
who he saw prophet (s.a.w and proclaimed shahadah and maintained this belief during whole of his life
side note: let me restate my question, how can you prove from quran why isnt this verse a general warning, without somebody actually having raised his voice in front of prophet (s.a.w), how do you know that ALLAH wasnt teaching manners to muslims, rather than reprimanding them when they actually committed the mistake.
e.g if a teacher tells his students, let your assignment not be late, it definitely means a warning, couldn't these verses be in the same context
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You keep forgetting when you mention HIDING that there are two more, Jesus and Khizar. Have you fallen out with those two as well 😊
none of them are imams of the time, whom we should actually be following in letter and dot
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If only predicting the outcome of sporting events was as easy as predicting the behavior of a Shia during a discussion! As I rightly predicted, T110 has gone into occultation due to his inability to account for the following points:
1. Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad.
2. Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects. Or better, apologize.
3. Show us where the Qur'an says that those who run away in battles are disbelievers.
4. Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala.
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Well..........They don’t need 313 exact hardmen to comeback and kill the Sunnis, only one certain individual hiding for the last millennia will do that to Sunnis so I haven’t fallen out with the 2 you mentioned, that one joker is enough for a good laugh.😜😂👍
I don't know where on earth you got the idea that he will need 313 men to kill the Sunnis. Don't know what planet you're living in. Sunnis as well as Shias believe in the coming of Mahdi, in the coming of a saviour. Why? Because certain Muslims took matter into their own hands since Saqifa. And the Muslim Ummah has always been careless and divided.
Since mankind (Muslims) took the matter of leadership and governance into their own hands, the Muslim Ummah have got themselves from one mess into another. The world will eventually be full of injustice and tyranny, get it, that's what Caliphate brought, that a saviour will be needed and come to free us from it.
I know this reality bits you. And the facts surrounding it kills you. Well that's what happens to brainwashed people like you. Try to have an academic discussion based on logic and reason. 😆
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who he saw prophet (s.a.w and proclaimed shahadah and maintained this belief during whole of his life
side note: let me restate my question, how can you prove from quran why isnt this verse a general warning, without somebody actually having raised his voice in front of prophet (s.a.w), how do you know that ALLAH wasnt teaching manners to muslims, rather than reprimanding them when they actually committed the mistake.
e.g if a teacher tells his students, let your assignment not be late, it definitely means a warning, couldn't these verses be in the same context
The example you've given about a teacher, students and assignment is totally different than what we're discussing. "Do not raise your voice at or above the voice of the Prophet s.a.w and don't argue with him or in front of him" is totally different than "make sure or keep in mind that you don't.......etc"
Ok lets leave this aside for a minute and go by warning and Allah wasn't speaking about the companions because they were so good and obedient that they never.....etc, what about the unfortunate incident of pen and paper? What about the absolutely unnecessary argument that took place in front of the Prophet s.a.w where voices were raised above the Prophet's s.a.w voice? They were companions or the Prophet s.a.w weren't they?
Or are you going to look for excuses here as well to divert attention.
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none of them are imams of the time, whom we should actually be following in letter and dot
They were selected and chosen by Allah. Not by mankind and coincidentally like in Saqifa. That's our issue. What happened and how it happened. We don't accept that. No one would with a bit of logic and reasoning.
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If only predicting the outcome of sporting events was as easy as predicting the behavior of a Shia during a discussion! As I rightly predicted, T110 has gone into occultation due to his inability to account for the following points:
1. Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad.
2. Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects. Or better, apologize.
3. Show us where the Qur'an says that those who run away in battles are disbelievers.
4. Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala.
"Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad"
Why? What's the reason for me to do that?
"Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects. Or better, apologize"
And where and how did I skip that? First of all what are you exactly talking about here?
"Show us where the Qur'an says that those who run away in battles are disbelievers"
When did I claim that?
"Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala"
What's that got to do with me? When did I claim that and how has that become a Shia belief? Stick to the subject.
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I don't know where on earth you got the idea that he will need 313 men to kill the Sunnis. Don't know what planet you're living in. Sunnis as well as Shias believe in the coming of Mahdi, in the coming of a saviour. Why? Because certain Muslims took matter into their own hands since Saqifa. And the Muslim Ummah has always been careless and divided.
Since mankind (Muslims) took the matter of leadership and governance into their own hands, the Muslim Ummah have got themselves from one mess into another. The world will eventually be full of injustice and tyranny, get it, that's what Caliphate brought, that a saviour will be needed and come to free us from it.
I know this reality bits you. And the facts surrounding it kills you. Well that's what happens to brainwashed people like you. Try to have an academic discussion based on logic and reason. 😆
It’s IN your books that he the scared imam NEEDS 313 followers to come out and fight like a man..........it’s been centuries and countless millions of shia have been dead and gone BUT none of them were the 313 that he needs....lol.
Yes we believe imam Mahdi will be BORN and will come and fight the kafiroon and NOT take revenge because the khilafat overpowered divine Imamate lol I think you need to open your fast now your heads all over the place.
Muslim ummah Alhamdulillah had a great period from the first 4 khalifa to Seljuks to mamluks to Ayubids to uthmani khilafat to name but a few..........what did shia and their divine imamates EVER do in history......have you even got a history or do you just tag behind us and BACKBITE us, I believe it’s the latter.
Muslim rule Alhamdulillah was great all thanks to Allah swt which spread Islam from hijaz to the four corners of the globe...........whilst you Shias were crying over some stupid made up divine Imamate thing which no sane person in the world would EVER believe in.......boo hoo hoo always crying Sunnis this Sunnis that and closing your eyes deliberately to the glory they brought to the world ruling by Quran and sunnah and spreading dawah........boo hoo hoo😂
Lol you academic? You are the one using false statements “Umar said don’t listen to him”! And when confronted move on to something else.
I know you and your kind you can NEVER discuss academically you ain’t got an atoms worth of intelligence but just a brainwashed about some divine Imamate thing that YOU COULD NEVER PROVE ACADEMICALLY FROM QURAN.......in one of our first convos!!!!
Boo hoo hoo ........Dry your eyes mate!
😂👍
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"Bring us ahaadith in Sahihain narrated by Umar ibn Sa'ad"
Why? What's the reason for me to do that?
"Admit your haste in skipping over the hadith of Musa (asws) and how it explicitly says that Bani Isra'il admitted that Musa (asws) was without defects. Or better, apologize"
And where and how did I skip that? First of all what are you exactly talking about here?
"Show us where the Qur'an says that those who run away in battles are disbelievers"
When did I claim that?
"Defend or condemn the narration which says that men get hard-on visiting Karbala"
What's that got to do with me? When did I claim that and how has that become a Shia belief? Stick to the subject.
If you were not pathetic in reading comprehension, you would have noticed that my opening statement excluded you from the discussion. I said, "As I rightly predicted, T110 has gone into occultation due to his inability to account for the following points".
Knowing the magnitude of your stupidity, allow me to clarify the purpose of this discussion topic. It was not my intention to try to prove that you are T110. In other words, I do not believe you and T110 are the same person. However, I see the same behavior in the two of you, both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks. You have spent quite a few years on TwelverShia wasting our time dancing around points. I won't allow T110 or any other new Shi'i member to do that. I will keep a running list of their failures which they will have to apologize or account for.
Do you understand now or did the head-slapping from last Muharram has seriously damaged your (few) brain cells?
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I'm here and the only things in occulation are threads in which the Ahlul Sunnah are strongly ciritiqued.
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I'm here and the only things in occulation are threads in which the Ahlul Sunnah are strongly ciritiqued.
We are all ears for your concerns and all the overdue points for which you owe us a response. Or an apology for your ignorance will do.
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If you were not pathetic in reading comprehension, you would have noticed that my opening statement excluded you from the discussion. I said, "As I rightly predicted, T110 has gone into occultation due to his inability to account for the following points".
Knowing the magnitude of your stupidity, allow me to clarify the purpose of this discussion topic. It was not my intention to try to prove that you are T110. In other words, I do not believe you and T110 are the same person. However, I see the same behavior in the two of you, both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks. You have spent quite a few years on TwelverShia wasting our time dancing around points. I won't allow T110 or any other new Shi'i member to do that. I will keep a running list of their failures which they will have to apologize or account for.
Do you understand now or did the head-slapping from last Muharram has seriously damaged your (few) brain cells?
"both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks"
And what are those crucial points? Just cut the crap and get to the point. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post. Because I don't want to get down into the gutter with you. Find someone of your nature and level for that. 😊
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"Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him, nor speak aloud to him in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not. Those who lower their voices in the presence of Allah’s Messenger PBUH, they are the ones whose hearts Allah has tested for piety. For them is forgiveness and a great reward"
Quran: 49: 2- 3
Now the above verses were revealed well before the pen and paper incident. This means certain Companions were guilty of this before as well where they were told off severely and harshly. Lets not be hell-bent in protecting them so badly.
Why are you throwing away an important of the ayat, which debunks the Sabaite ideology of apostacy of sahaba?! You omitted "O you who have believed" . Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH), just like many other ayat in Quran. But before that, Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed.
You have also overlooked the 3rd ayat, which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat.
As for the details of the incident, hadith states that, after this ayat was revealed, Umar lowered his voice in a noticeable extent-
Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:
The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and `Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet (ﷺ) when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi`, the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to `Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" `Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed: 'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, `Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet (ﷺ) had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).
Sahih al-Bukhari- 4845
And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there~
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"both evading crucial points making yourselves and your madhhab out to be laughing stocks"
And what are those crucial points? Just cut the crap and get to the point. I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post. Because I don't want to get down into the gutter with you. Find someone of your nature and level for that. 😊
The "crucial points" have been stated many times and they are for T110 to accept or refute. You can shut up now and crawl back into your cave. Your boyfriend should be able to answer for himself though I'm sure he appreciates you looking out for him.
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Why are you throwing away an important of the ayat, which debunks the Sabaite ideology of apostacy of sahaba?! You omitted "O you who have believed" . Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH), just like many other ayat in Quran. But before that, Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed.
You have also overlooked the 3rd ayat, which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat.
As for the details of the incident, hadith states that, after this ayat was revealed, Umar lowered his voice in a noticeable extent-
Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:
The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and `Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet (ﷺ) when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi`, the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to `Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" `Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed: 'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, `Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet (ﷺ) had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).
Sahih al-Bukhari- 4845
And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there~
"apostasy of sahaba"
Ok, do you believe in this or not? If you don't then what about Malik bin Nuwayrah and the others who were accused of apostasy? Are you going to deny that they were companions to begin with or do you accept the fact that Sahaba can become apostates but limit it to your desire?
I don't accuse companions of apostasy. But what I do say and believe is that certain Companions, their actions and stance in certain matters and situations is disappointing. And in some places is subject to crticisism and condemnation.
You believe that companions are clear of apostasy and criticism. Then you have double standards where you accuse certain Companions of apostasy during the reign of Abu Bakr and accuse some of making mistakes and getting it wrong like Ali and his reign.
But we don't have double standards. Our principle is that companions can make an error, make mistakes, get it wrong. And it depends on the nature of the situation and matter. On that basis criticism and condemnation is brought about but justly, fairly and with in reason. Then you are quick to defend and protect certain individuals.
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The "crucial points" have been stated many times and they are for T110 to accept or refute. You can shut up now and crawl back into your cave. Your boyfriend should be able to answer for himself though I'm sure he appreciates you looking out for him.
"The "crucial points" have been stated many times and they are for T110 to accept or refute"
Well don't keep on dragging me into it.
"You can shut up now and crawl back into your cave"
That's what you need to do. Because you're the one who's coming out with the trash.
"Your boyfriend"
We know how you've been brought up by the way you speak and behave. But try and keep it general and civilised. If you can.
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Well don't keep on dragging me into it.
Then stop sticking your nose in other people's business!
That's what you need to do. Because you're the one who's coming out with the trash.
No, I am taking out the trash. See how your bf went missing when I started a running list of his blunders? We made that mistake with you so I wanted to rectify it. We should have kept a running list of your failures too. By now, you'd have been in occultation.
We know how you've been brought up by the way you speak and behave. But try and keep it general and civilised. If you can.
Pathetic comeback, lol, as usual!
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Why are you throwing away an important of the ayat, which debunks the Sabaite ideology of apostacy of sahaba?! You omitted "O you who have believed" . Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH), just like many other ayat in Quran. But before that, Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed.
You have also overlooked the 3rd ayat, which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat.
As for the details of the incident, hadith states that, after this ayat was revealed, Umar lowered his voice in a noticeable extent-
Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:
The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and `Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet (ﷺ) when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi`, the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to `Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" `Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed: 'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, `Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet (ﷺ) had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).
Sahih al-Bukhari- 4845
And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there~
"And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there"
I'm not worried the slightest. And we aren't talking about Imamah. So I don't know why you keep bringing it in. Only to divert attention that is. Umar wasn't interested in what the Prophet s.a.w had to write by saying "you have the book of Allah with you, that is sufficient for us". Companions raised their voices in front of the Prophet s.a.w and argued in front of him. Some said he should be given the own and paper and should be allowed to write. The others disagreed. The behaviour was absolutely disgusting and in front of the Prophet s.a.w You can try hard as you want. It is what it is. And you can't wash it away or brush it under the carpet. I know how desperate you are.
"Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH)"
And how exactly did they behave in front of the Prophet s.a.w is crystal clear when he asked for pen and paper. Stop protecting the guilty by dragging this on.
"Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed"
I'm not questioning their belief, I'm just pointing out their behaviour and stance.
"which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat"
I'm not questioning whether or why they were forgiven or let off. Just pointing out that certain actions and behaviour puts you below others. You can't say, do, act and behave the way you want and then are placed above the others or given superiority above others. It's not just or fair. And it's beyond reason.
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Then stop sticking your nose in other people's business!
No, I am taking out the trash. See how your bf went missing when I started a running list of his blunders? We made that mistake with you so I wanted to rectify it. We should have kept a running list of your failures too. By now, you'd have been in occultation.
Pathetic comeback, lol, as usual!
"Then stop sticking your nose in other people's business!"
I'm sticking my nose into a business which you have made mine by connecting me to it and by calling me on. Take a look at the title of your thread and your posts.keep it between you and him. Don't expect that I won't comment or respond if I'm mentioned.
"No, I am taking out the trash"
Well why are you taking it out with your mouth. 😊 You're only making your mouth dirty and yourself filthy. 😊
"We should have kept a running list of your failures too"
Bring it on baby. What's keeping you. 😊
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I'm sticking my nose into a business which you have made mine by connecting me to it and by calling me on. Take a look at the title of your thread and your posts.keep it between you and him. Don't expect that I won't comment or respond if I'm mentioned.
I have already explained why your name was added to this discussion topic. No need to feel special. You have been named as an example of a mistake never to repeat, not as a beacon of wisdom.
Well why are you taking it out with your mouth. 😊 You're only making your mouth dirty and yourself filthy. 😊
Didn't know you were taught to take trash out with your mouth! Tell us more about yourself. You must have been abused as a child.
Bring it on baby. What's keeping you. 😊
Baby? I am not T110.
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I have already explained why your name was added to this discussion topic. No need to feel special. You have been named as an example of a mistake never to repeat, not as a beacon of wisdom.
Didn't know you were taught to take trash out with your mouth! Tell us more about yourself. You must have been abused as a child.
Baby? I am not T110.
"Didn't know you were taught to take trash out with your mouth"
No. Wasn't brought up like that. The way I talk and behave backs it. I didn't say that I was taking trash out. You said that.
"Tell us more about yourself. You must have been abused as a child"
Then why are you talking and behaving as the one who was 😊 Take a look at the language you use.
What's the matter, got nothing useful to put forward. You can say what ever you won't. You won't get a reaction out of me that you so desperately want. 😊
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"apostasy of sahaba"
Ok, do you believe in this or not? If you don't then what about Malik bin Nuwayrah and the others who were accused of apostasy? Are you going to deny that they were companions to begin with or do you accept the fact that Sahaba can become apostates but limit it to your desire?
I don't accuse companions of apostasy. But what I do say and believe is that certain Companions, their actions and stance in certain matters and situations is disappointing. And in some places is subject to crticisism and condemnation.
You believe that companions are clear of apostasy and criticism. Then you have double standards where you accuse certain Companions of apostasy during the reign of Abu Bakr and accuse some of making mistakes and getting it wrong like Ali and his reign.
owwwy, Malik Bin Nuwayrah became a Saint to the Rafidah, just because he and many of his tribe rejected a pillar of Islam. While, according to Sabaite theory, most of the Sahaba became APOSTATE by rejecting the "Divine Imamamamah"
- that's the difference in belief.
Bringing the Munafiqeen of Madinah , or the Zaqat denying tribe of yemen won't help in this case, because according to the standard of being a sahaba, those who did not accepted each and every rules of Islam from heart, were not sahaba at all. That's what happened to people of that tribe, after the Demise of Rasulullah( صلى الله عليه وسلم) they thought of stop paying the money ordered by Allah and his Rasul( صلى الله عليه وسلم)
Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) was informed about these people in his lifetime-
Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:
"On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam). [BUkhari 6585]
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"And, why are you worried for pen & paper incident, after that day, Prophet(PBUH) had enough time to declare succession or that sort of thing, but no sign or trace of IMAMAH there"
I'm not worried the slightest. And we aren't talking about Imamah. So I don't know why you keep bringing it in. Only to divert attention that is. Umar wasn't interested in what the Prophet s.a.w had to write by saying "you have the book of Allah with you, that is sufficient for us". Companions raised their voices in front of the Prophet s.a.w and argued in front of him. Some said he should be given the own and paper and should be allowed to write. The others disagreed. The behaviour was absolutely disgusting and in front of the Prophet s.a.w You can try hard as you want. It is what it is. And you can't wash it away or brush it under the carpet. I know how desperate you are.
"Allah taught sahaba how to behave among themselves while in front of Prophet(PBUH)"
And how exactly did they behave in front of the Prophet s.a.w is crystal clear when he asked for pen and paper. Stop protecting the guilty by dragging this on.
"Allah has mentioned them as those who have already believed"
I'm not questioning their belief, I'm just pointing out their behaviour and stance.
"which declared forgiveness for those who have acted upon the command of the 2nd ayat"
I'm not questioning whether or why they were forgiven or let off. Just pointing out that certain actions and behaviour puts you below others. You can't say, do, act and behave the way you want and then are placed above the others or given superiority above others. It's not just or fair. And it's beyond reason.
I provided a hadith as a proof that, Umar(ra) attained success in the test of Allah, and achieved forgiveness and great reward- which was mentioned in the ayat later. However, you are saying that you don't care whatever Allah declared , you want to write your own philosophy.
The behavior of the sahaba was due to the physical condition of prophet(sallallahu alaihi wasallam), they were too much worried for him and and confused about whether to arrange writing in that terrible pain or not- this was the only tension. You can't claim that they were making chaos deliberately to snatch Imamah from Ahlul Bayt!
WHatever Umar said , was to not trouble Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) when he was suffering from pained, he said-
فَقَالَ بَعْضُهُمْ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ غَلَبَهُ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَكُمُ الْقُرْآنُ، حَسْبُنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ
'Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Qur'an. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.'
Believing the perfection of Quran and trying to relief Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) from the troubles was wrong according to you?
for your kind information, Ummah got the message which was to be conveyed by Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) -
" .....Leave me. I am better in the state (than the one in which you are engaged). I make a will about three things: Turn out the polytheists from the territory of Arabia; show hospitality to the (foreign) delegations as I used to show them hospitality. He (the narrator) said: He (Ibn Abbas) kept silent on the third point, or he (the narrator) said: But I forgot that."
https://sunnah.com/muslim/25/29
I am bringing Imamah here, because, that's the missing brick in the puzzle of Shiasm. We sunnis do not think that Islam lost any important things by these types of incidents or prophethood was failed to convey any important rulings just because of the so called "chaos" of sahaba.
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owwwy, Malik Bin Nuwayrah became a Saint to the Rafidah, just because he and many of his tribe rejected a pillar of Islam. While, according to Sabaite theory, most of the Sahaba became APOSTATE by rejecting the "Divine Imamamamah"
- that's the difference in belief.
Bringing the Munafiqeen of Madinah , or the Zaqat denying tribe of yemen won't help in this case, because according to the standard of being a sahaba, those who did not accepted each and every rules of Islam from heart, were not sahaba at all. That's what happened to people of that tribe, after the Demise of Rasulullah( صلى الله عليه وسلم) they thought of stop paying the money ordered by Allah and his Rasul( صلى الله عليه وسلم)
Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) was informed about these people in his lifetime-
Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:
"On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam). [BUkhari 6585]
You're deliberately avoiding the point here. Can the companions of the Prophet s.a.w become apostates after the death of the Prophet s.a.w or not. That's the main point. Make this a principle and quit double standards. I only mentioned the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah and other companions alongside him and gave a clear example that companions aren't untouchable by being exempt by your rules. One minute you defend them by labelling then 'MEHFOOZ'. They're not 'MASOOM' but 'MEHFOOZ'. And then you accuse some of apostasy. That's how far you go. And accuse us of pointing put at certain Companions. Just want to expose this double standard policy ypu have. Make a principle gents then stick to it. You're all over the place.
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I provided a hadith as a proof that, Umar(ra) attained success in the test of Allah, and achieved forgiveness and great reward- which was mentioned in the ayat later. However, you are saying that you don't care whatever Allah declared , you want to write your own philosophy.
The behavior of the sahaba was due to the physical condition of prophet(sallallahu alaihi wasallam), they were too much worried for him and and confused about whether to arrange writing in that terrible pain or not- this was the only tension. You can't claim that they were making chaos deliberately to snatch Imamah from Ahlul Bayt!
WHatever Umar said , was to not trouble Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) when he was suffering from pained, he said-
فَقَالَ بَعْضُهُمْ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ غَلَبَهُ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَكُمُ الْقُرْآنُ، حَسْبُنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ
'Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Qur'an. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.'
Believing the perfection of Quran and trying to relief Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) from the troubles was wrong according to you?
for your kind information, Ummah got the message which was to be conveyed by Prophet( صلى الله عليه وسلم) -
" .....Leave me. I am better in the state (than the one in which you are engaged). I make a will about three things: Turn out the polytheists from the territory of Arabia; show hospitality to the (foreign) delegations as I used to show them hospitality. He (the narrator) said: He (Ibn Abbas) kept silent on the third point, or he (the narrator) said: But I forgot that."
https://sunnah.com/muslim/25/29
I am bringing Imamah here, because, that's the missing brick in the puzzle of Shiasm. We sunnis do not think that Islam lost any important things by these types of incidents or prophethood was failed to convey any important rulings just because of the so called "chaos" of sahaba.
Rather than being rational about this and looking at it clearly and in both ways, you are doing your best by looking at it one way and protecting Umar and his intentions without a shadow of a doubt. That's the whole problem with you loyalists. You accuse us of deliberately targeting certain Sahaba when we only bring in and discuss reality and facts concerning them.
As I have already mentioned that you label Sahaba as 'MEHFOOZ'. And then you go around violating your own principles to suit each situation to your desire. The case of Malik bin Nuwayrah and other companions with him who were slaughtered in cold blood has already been discussed in great detail in another thread. I'll post a bit for your knowledge and information.
As far as the pen and paper incident is concerned, you are clearly an Umar loyalist. And you will protect him no matter what. And I am no anti Umar. I will bring in reality and facts and will continue to look at each matter and situation separately and with an open mind without being bias or prejudice towards anyone.
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Our coward ran from those in authority. Your cowards abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded and all alone. Something that our coward didn't do.
Iceman.....melted!
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Iceman.....melted!
Just pointing out facts here. The Shia Mahdi has been accused on numerous occasions of being a coward and going into hiding. So he ran from who and from what? From those in authority and from persecution.
People constantly bang on about this but never bother to mention other cowards who also ran. Ran from who? Mushriks and kafirs. Ran from where? The battle field. Why? To save their lives. A crucial fact, leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind. Abandoning Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. 😊
Sweet dreams. Just thought I'd mention it. But I know your kind won't be getting any sweet dreams after this. If you have any shame in you that is. Learn to respect others. Otherwise reality and facts will come to bite you. Get your act together!
Before engaging in conversation (discussions and debates) learn some manners are show respect to others and what they believe in.
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Just pointing out facts here.
Damn right you are! He is a coward to have been in hiding for over 1000 years leaving you all to scramble for, and fail to assemble, 313 men.
The Shia Mahdi has been accused on numerous occasions of being a coward and going into hiding.
Convicted, not accused.
So he ran from who and from what? From those in authority and from persecution.
Imam Ali (ra) was in authority and so was Imam Hassan (ra). Muawiya did not run from them. Infallibles failing in the face of a fallible man who was not even in authority.
People constantly bang on about this but never bother to mention other cowards who also ran.
Thus far having failed to even assemble 313 men, Shias are infatuated with those who ran from battlefields albeit temporarily. Therefore, they (Shias) and their own beliefs will be scrutinized according to their own set standards. The good news for us is that everyone who fled from Hunain and Uhud were forgiven. The bad news for you is that you cannot find 313 men nor can you find your 12th Imam.
Learn to respect others. Otherwise reality and facts will come to bite you. Get your act together!
Exactly my point! When you run your mouth against the Sahaba (ra), you are only adding insult to your own injury of being unable to put together 313 men to convince your scared Imam to return.
Before engaging in conversation (discussions and debates) learn some manners are show respect to others and what they believe in.
I am sorry but it is not my madhhab that encourages and promotes the cursing of noble personalities as means of gaining good.
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Damn right you are! He is a coward to have been in hiding for over 1000 years leaving you all to scramble for, and fail to assemble, 313 men.
Convicted, not accused.
Imam Ali (ra) was in authority and so was Imam Hassan (ra). Muawiya did not run from them. Infallibles failing in the face of a fallible man who was not even in authority.
Thus far having failed to even assemble 313 men, Shias are infatuated with those who ran from battlefields albeit temporarily. Therefore, they (Shias) and their own beliefs will be scrutinized according to their own set standards. The good news for us is that everyone who fled from Hunain and Uhud were forgiven. The bad news for you is that you cannot find 313 men nor can you find your 12th Imam.
Exactly my point! When you run your mouth against the Sahaba (ra), you are only adding insult to your own injury of being unable to put together 313 men to convince your scared Imam to return.
I am sorry but it is not my madhhab that encourages and promotes the cursing of noble personalities as means of gaining good.
"Damn right you are! He is a coward to have been in hiding for over 1000 years leaving you all to scramble for, and fail to assemble, 313 men"
😊 And what about those cowards who fled from the battlefield to save their lives. Because their lives were more important to them than Allah and his Prophet s.a.w. And they fled, were being chased away by Mushriks and Kafirs leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind abandoned and stranded. What are your thoughts on these cowards which no one will deny that they became cowards. After all fleeing from the battlefield from your enemy is a cowardly act, isn't it. 😊
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"Damn right you are! He is a coward to have been in hiding for over 1000 years leaving you all to scramble for, and fail to assemble, 313 men"
😊 And what about those cowards who fled from the battlefield to save their lives. Because their lives were more important to them than Allah and his Prophet s.a.w. And they fled, were being chased away by Mushriks and Kafirs leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind abandoned and stranded. What are your thoughts on these cowards which no one will deny that they became cowards. After all fleeing from the battlefield from your enemy is a cowardly act, isn't it. 😊
It is sufficient to see you deliver a similar judgment on both. As long as you consider your own 12th Imam a coward, which you have already admitted to, I am quite okay if you consider those who fled Hunain and Uhud to be "cowards" as well. As wrong as you are in saying that about the Sahaba (ra) who fled Hunain and Uhud, at least your judgment is consistent.
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It is sufficient to see you deliver a similar judgment on both. As long as you consider your own 12th Imam a coward, which you have already admitted to, I am quite okay if you consider those who fled Hunain and Uhud to be "cowards" as well. As wrong as you are in saying that about the Sahaba (ra) who fled Hunain and Uhud, at least your judgment is consistent.
You've always called the one in HIDING a COWARD. What about those who fled the battlefield. Fled from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w. fled to save their lives. Fled abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded. Any thoughts here. 😊 Since you're talking about cowardice and cowards. So what's keeping you here. 😊
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It is sufficient to see you deliver a similar judgment on both. As long as you consider your own 12th Imam a coward, which you have already admitted to, I am quite okay if you consider those who fled Hunain and Uhud to be "cowards" as well. As wrong as you are in saying that about the Sahaba (ra) who fled Hunain and Uhud, at least your judgment is consistent.
"As long as you consider your own 12th Imam a coward"
You accuse of being a coward. You always have slandered him. And so have the others. I just pointed out to you that what about those who fled. 😊 Why are you so silent there. That's all.
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It is sufficient to see you deliver a similar judgment on both. As long as you consider your own 12th Imam a coward, which you have already admitted to, I am quite okay if you consider those who fled Hunain and Uhud to be "cowards" as well. As wrong as you are in saying that about the Sahaba (ra) who fled Hunain and Uhud, at least your judgment is consistent.
"It is sufficient to see you deliver a similar judgment on both"
I don't pass and deliver judgment on anyone. Nor am I disrespectful and rude to anyone or to any important figure to anyone. That's been your way and those who are like you and have the same nature as you.
"As long as you consider your own 12th Imam a coward"
You consider him a coward. I'm just asking you to be fair to yourself and acknowledge and accept those who fled.
"which you have already admitted to"
Are you that desperate that you need to force something on me. I haven't admitted. Only pointed out to you that you consider him to be a coward then what about those who fled. I spoke based on argumentative reasons and to make a point.
"As wrong as you are in saying that about the Sahaba"
What is wrong here and what is right over there? Please explain.
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I don't pass and deliver judgment on anyone. Nor am I disrespectful and rude to anyone or to any important figure to anyone. That's been your way and those who are like you and have the same nature as you.
Apart from being disrespectful, you are a spineless coward.
T110 came with guns blazing throwing the kitchen sink at us. When I refuted him on every point he brought up and started a running list of his mistakes, he went into occultation. Every now and then, he rears his head to assure us that he will come back with responses but he never does. You know why? Because deep down, his self-esteem has caught up with him not allowing him to come back and face more humiliation. You, on the other hand, despite having been humiliated in ways beyond imagination, keep coming back for more. Hence, you are a spineless coward who has no self-esteem and zero self-worth.
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Apart from being disrespectful, you are a spineless coward.
T110 came with guns blazing throwing the kitchen sink at us. When I refuted him on every point he brought up and started a running list of his mistakes, he went into occultation. Every now and then, he rears his head to assure us that he will come back with responses but he never does. You know why? Because deep down, his self-esteem has caught up with him not allowing him to come back and face more humiliation. You, on the other hand, despite having been humiliated in ways beyond imagination, keep coming back for more. Hence, you are a spineless coward who has no self-esteem and zero self-worth.
"Apart from being disrespectful, you are a spineless coward"
First you were on about cowards and I wanted your thoughts on those who fled, from whom and for what reason, but you were too hesitant to say anything. Now you're on about spineless cowards. I didn't run from the battlefield, from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w, leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind abandoned and stranded to save my life. If I did then what would you consider and call me 😊😊😊 You think I'm a spineless coward, and what do you think about those who fled? 😊
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First you were on about cowards and I wanted your thoughts on those who fled, from whom and for what reason, but you were too hesitant to say anything.
No, we have settled the cowardice issue. As per your own confession - see my signature - your 12th Imam takes the cake.
Now you're on about spineless cowards. I didn't run from the battlefield, from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w, leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind abandoned and stranded to save my life.
You run from points we make against your madhhab. Not the same as running from the battlefield but also not that different.
If I did then what would you consider and call me 😊😊😊
I would call you Imam-e-Zaman! Aj aj baj baj kaj kaj faj faj taj taj!!!!
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No, we have settled the cowardice issue. As per your own confession - see my signature - your 12th Imam takes the cake.
You run from points we make against your madhhab. Not the same as running from the battlefield but also not that different.
I would call you Imam-e-Zaman! Aj aj baj baj kaj kaj faj faj taj taj!!!!
Yes we have settled it. You believe that the 12th Imam of the Shia (Al Mahdi) is a coward who has been hiding for so many years. And you and your boys have been banging on about this for ages. And I said to you that our coward, and that is according to you, fled from who? The government. Those in authority. From persecution. And what about those who fled from the battlefield, fled from the ENEMIES OF ALLAH AND HIS PROPHET S.A.W, to save THEIR LIVES, leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind, ABANDONING him and leaving him STRANDED.
The more you PUSH IT, the more you will be QUESTIONED about it. Get your act together 😊 I don't want this. Your pushing it and bringing it on.
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Yes we have settled it. You believe that the 12th Imam of the Shia (Al Mahdi) is a coward who has been hiding for so many years.
No, we settled it when you also acknowledged his cowardice. That is when it was settled!
And you and your boys have been banging on about this for ages.
No, your madhhab is often guilty of mocking people whom Allah (swt) forgave.
And I said to you that our coward, and that is according to you, fled from who?
Now we are talking. Yes, your coward who is (allegedly) aided by Allah (swt), with power over atoms, ran away from the government. That adds to his cowardice actually! Why would you run away from mortal beings when you exercise control over the universe and atoms? Or is it that your 12th Imam doubts Allah's (swt) protection? Or could it be that your bid'ah (the concept of Imamah) is a fable?
And what about those who fled from the battlefield
In the Qur'an, Allah (swt) has absolved them. You have problems with Allah (swt), not with us. We hear and we obey; you hear, mock and disobey the Word of Allah (swt).
The more you PUSH IT, the more you will be QUESTIONED about it.
We are not pushing anything. You and I agree that Imam-e-Zaman is a coward, lol!
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Just as I suspected, T-110 has gone into occultation. He barely lasted two weeks.
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No, we settled it when you also acknowledged his cowardice. That is when it was settled!
No, your madhhab is often guilty of mocking people whom Allah (swt) forgave.
Now we are talking. Yes, your coward who is (allegedly) aided by Allah (swt), with power over atoms, ran away from the government. That adds to his cowardice actually! Why would you run away from mortal beings when you exercise control over the universe and atoms? Or is it that your 12th Imam doubts Allah's (swt) protection? Or could it be that your bid'ah (the concept of Imamah) is a fable?
In the Qur'an, Allah (swt) has absolved them. You have problems with Allah (swt), not with us. We hear and we obey; you hear, mock and disobey the Word of Allah (swt).
We are not pushing anything. You and I agree that Imam-e-Zaman is a coward, lol!
No, we settled it when you also acknowledged his cowardice. That is when it was settled"
Don't put your desired words in my mouth. He's a coward according to you or your kind. So 'our coward' means the one touch label. Nice try but you can't win by scoring cheap points.
"No, your madhhab is often guilty of mocking people whom Allah (swt) forgave"
No it isn't. It's easy for you to accuse than prove. Being forgiven for a sin or error is one thing but being brave is another. Allah forgave them doesn't mean you have been given the approval to rank them amongst the brave.
"Now we are talking. Yes, your coward"
According to you and your kind.
"with power over atoms, ran away from the government"
And what about those who ran away from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w from the battlefield abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded. Extremely embarrassing. They were forgiven for it? Well the stain and embarrassment doesn't go away. So did they do anything to rank amongst the brave? I don't think so. Now I know why you pick on Al Mahdi. You're actually doing it out of embarrassment.
"That adds to his cowardice actually! Why would you run away from mortal beings when you exercise control over the universe and atoms?"
Allah sent Prophets and Messengers with clear signs to the children of Israel (Bani Isra'il) but they had the power to kill those Prophets and Messengers. I wonder how Allah allowed this despite being almighty. And you talk about running from tyrants and persecution. Lol.
"Or is it that your 12th Imam doubts Allah's (swt) protection?"
Lol. Where was Allah's protection when Bani Isra'il killed Prophets and Messengers who were sent with clear signs. Lol.
"Or could it be that your bid'ah (the concept of Imamah) is a fable?"
Lol. It's your thinking and ideology that is a fable. Lol.
"In the Qur'an, Allah (swt) has absolved them. You have problems with Allah (swt), not with us. We hear and we obey; you hear, mock and disobey the Word of Allah (swt)"
Does that mean they're not cowards anymore. Or what they did wasn't cowardice, cowardly. Why do you hesitate to call cowards coward.
"We are not pushing anything. You and I agree that Imam-e-Zaman is a coward, lol!"
And you don't have to accept and agree that those who fled the battlefield from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w were cowards. Lol. Facts are facts whether you agree or not lol.
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Don't put your desired words in my mouth. He's a coward according to you or your kind. So 'our coward' means the one touch label. Nice try but you can't win by scoring cheap points.
I have your exact quote declaring him a coward. Need a screenshot?
No it isn't. It's easy for you to accuse than prove. Being forgiven for a sin or error is one thing but being brave is another. Allah forgave them doesn't mean you have been given the approval to rank them amongst the brave.
In other words, Allah (swt) forgave them but you refuse to do so. Allah (swt) forgave their error but you will expose it till the Day of Judgment. And then you wonder why we declare you an enemy of Islam.
Well the stain and embarrassment doesn't go away.
Allah (swt) promised them forgiveness so the "stain and embarrassment" is on you.
According to your narrative, they opposed your "infallibles" (ra) yet Allah (swt) promised them Paradise, lol.
I know it hurts.
Allah sent Prophets and Messengers with clear signs to the children of Israel (Bani Isra'il) but they had the power to kill those Prophets and Messengers. I wonder how Allah allowed this despite being almighty. And you talk about running from tyrants and persecution. Lol.
Your argument - although a bad comparison - goes against your premise. The very fact that these Prophets and Messengers (asws) were killed by Bani Isra'il proves that these Prophets and Messengers (asws) delivered the message openly instead of hiding in a cave out of cowardice.
Lol. Where was Allah's protection when Bani Isra'il killed Prophets and Messengers who were sent with clear signs. Lol.
Strawman!
It is the Shi'i excuse which says that the 12th Imam is hiding as means to protect himself. Therefore, it logically follows that he, despite having power over atoms and the universe, doubts Allah's (swt) protection.
Does that mean they're not cowards anymore. Or what they did wasn't cowardice, cowardly. Why do you hesitate to call cowards coward.
I have always called the "Guide" a coward for running away from his responsibilities and hiding in some cellar.
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I have your exact quote declaring him a coward. Need a screenshot?
In other words, Allah (swt) forgave them but you refuse to do so. Allah (swt) forgave their error but you will expose it till the Day of Judgment. And then you wonder why we declare you an enemy of Islam.
Allah (swt) promised them forgiveness so the "stain and embarrassment" is on you.
According to your narrative, they opposed your "infallibles" (ra) yet Allah (swt) promised them Paradise, lol.
I know it hurts.
Your argument - although a bad comparison - goes against your premise. The very fact that these Prophets and Messengers (asws) were killed by Bani Isra'il proves that these Prophets and Messengers (asws) delivered the message openly instead of hiding in a cave out of cowardice.
Strawman!
It is the Shi'i excuse which says that the 12th Imam is hiding as means to protect himself. Therefore, it logically follows that he, despite having power over atoms and the universe, doubts Allah's (swt) protection.
I have always called the "Guide" a coward for running away from his responsibilities and hiding in some cellar.
"I have your exact quote declaring him a coward. Need a screenshot"
I didn't declare him a coward. He didn't run from the battlefield and from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w. He didn't abandon the Prophet s.a.w and leave him stranded. If he did then most certainly he would be a coward.
"In other words, Allah (swt) forgave them but you refuse to do so"
We don't have a problem with that. When you start to raise their status above what they are or start to put them above others that's were the problem lies.
"Allah (swt) forgave their error but you will expose it till the Day of Judgment"
Nope. When you constantly accuse Al Mahdi of being a coward and going into hiding then relevant, approximate and the right stuff is mentioned and brought forward.
"And then you wonder why we declare you an enemy of Islam"
We aren't the enemies of Islam. The enemies of Islam were at the Battle of Ohad from whom they ran. You accusing us doesn't mean or stand for anything.
"Allah (swt) promised them forgiveness so the "stain and embarrassment" is on you"
Allah FORGAVE them. He didn't REWARD them. That's where you need to sort yourselves out. Stain of embarrassment is on those who acted cowardly. Facts are facts and you can't change them. No one can.
"According to your narrative, they opposed your "infallibles" (ra) yet Allah (swt) promised them Paradise, lol"
They opposed Allah and his Prophet s.a.w. Apart from that they didn't oppose anyone. If we go by your silly theory then the Satan is making a fool out of everybody.
"I know it hurts"
Can you feel it. If you can then you must be hurting. I can't. So I ain't.
"Your argument - although a bad comparison - goes against your premise. The very fact that these Prophets and Messengers (asws) were killed by Bani Isra'il proves that these Prophets and Messengers (asws) delivered the message openly instead of hiding in a cave out of cowardice"
What ever orders were given to the Prophets they carried them out regardless of the outcome. What ever orders were given to the Imams they carried them out regardless of the outcome.
"instead of hiding in a cave out of cowardice"
So what do think and make of those who actually fled the battlefield from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w leaving the Prophet s.a.w abandoned and stranded. You're keen on talking about hiding and cowardice, what about fleeing and cowardice. If that's what you believe in then Allah forgave them so he won't have any problems forgiving him either.
"It is the Shi'i excuse which says that the 12th Imam is hiding as means to protect himself"
Nope. You've got it wrong again as usual. He went into OCCULTATION not into HIDING. Not to protect himself but to let the Ummah get on with it.
Therefore, it logically follows that he, despite having power over atoms and the universe, doubts Allah's (swt) protection.
Allah is almighty but Satan is still getting the better if we go by your silly theory.
"I have always called the "Guide" a coward for running away from his responsibilities and hiding in some cellar"
Then the world will always go by reality and stick with facts that can't be altered or changed that those who fled from the battlefield abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded were and are cowards. And will always remain in that category. Then you shouldn't have a problem with this.
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O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. (Surah Al-Anfal, 15)
If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)! (Surah Al-Anfal, 16)
O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah At-Tawba, 38)
Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.For Allah hath power over all things. (Surah At-Tawba, 39)
Almighty Allah says (what can be translated as): “O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight]. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.” (Al-Anfal: 15-16)
Almighty Allah commands the believers to stand firm in battles and confront the disbelievers by faithful hearts. He encourages them not to retreat or turn their backs to the enemies even if the disbelievers were more than the believers in number because fleeing from the battlefield causes weakness inside the fighting Islamic army.
Almighty Allah lets the fighter move freely during the battle. They used to move from one place in the battle to another to support a group of Muslims or to fill a gap from which the enemies penetrated. The important thing is that the Muslim fighter’s aim has to be victory or martyrdom and obeying the commands of the leadership. As for those who leave the battle whether to flee or escape death, Almighty Allah promises them with painful torment on the Day of Resurrection.
Allah’s Messenger, Peace Be upon Him, rated the act of fleeing from the battle as one of the major sins.
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I didn't declare him a coward.
Deny it one more time and I will make the screenshot my signature.
He didn't run from the battlefield and from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w. He didn't abandon the Prophet s.a.w and leave him stranded. If he did then most certainly he would be a coward.
He has done worse! According to your faith, the world cannot remain without an Imam and the one upon whom the world relies has shunned all responsibilities and is only concerned about his own well-being.
We don't have a problem with that. When you start to raise their status above what they are or start to put them above others that's were the problem lies.
Allah (swt) praises Muhajiroon and Ansar without making any distinctions and has Forgiven those who fled from battles. Unfortunately for you, your second and third Imams (ra) are neither Muhajir nor Ansar so it is you who actually put them above those whom Allah (swt) praised in the Qur'an.
Nope. When you constantly accuse Al Mahdi of being a coward and going into hiding then relevant, approximate and the right stuff is mentioned and brought forward.
I am not accusing anyone of cowardice. I am making a logical inference based on Shi'i beliefs. He is tasked to be "The Guide" whereas he is more concerned about his own safety and well-being despite the fact that he (allegedly) has control over the atoms.
We aren't the enemies of Islam. The enemies of Islam were at the Battle of Ohad from whom they ran. You accusing us doesn't mean or stand for anything.
What is "Ohad"? Persian accent much?
Allah FORGAVE them. He didn't REWARD them.
Prove it!
They opposed Allah and his Prophet s.a.w. Apart from that they didn't oppose anyone.
...and you could not refute this point! According to your beliefs, the Sahaba (ra) opposed your "infallibles" (ra). And yet the Qur'an guarantees the same Sahaba (ra) paradise. A catastrophe for you!
What ever orders were given to the Prophets they carried them out regardless of the outcome. What ever orders were given to the Imams they carried them out regardless of the outcome.
lol, he is hiding! What orders has he carried out? Majority of your books of ahaadith are full of dubious reports, an admission made by your own scholars as well, and the 12th one is only concerned about his own safety.
So what do think and make of those who actually fled the battlefield from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w leaving the Prophet s.a.w abandoned and stranded.
Allah (swt) forgave them and when Allah (swt) decides on a matter, "we hear and we obey".
Nope. You've got it wrong again as usual. He went into OCCULTATION not into HIDING. Not to protect himself but to let the Ummah get on with it.
Get on with what? So you are saying that the 12th Imam has purposefully left us to misguidance? You are a bigger disaster than Chernobyl!
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Deny it one more time and I will make the screenshot my signature.
He has done worse! According to your faith, the world cannot remain without an Imam and the one upon whom the world relies has shunned all responsibilities and is only concerned about his own well-being.
Allah (swt) praises Muhajiroon and Ansar without making any distinctions and has Forgiven those who fled from battles. Unfortunately for you, your second and third Imams (ra) are neither Muhajir nor Ansar so it is you who actually put them above those whom Allah (swt) praised in the Qur'an.
I am not accusing anyone of cowardice. I am making a logical inference based on Shi'i beliefs. He is tasked to be "The Guide" whereas he is more concerned about his own safety and well-being despite the fact that he (allegedly) has control over the atoms.
What is "Ohad"? Persian accent much?
Prove it!
...and you could not refute this point! According to your beliefs, the Sahaba (ra) opposed your "infallibles" (ra). And yet the Qur'an guarantees the same Sahaba (ra) paradise. A catastrophe for you!
lol, he is hiding! What orders has he carried out? Majority of your books of ahaadith are full of dubious reports, an admission made by your own scholars as well, and the 12th one is only concerned about his own safety.
Allah (swt) forgave them and when Allah (swt) decides on a matter, "we hear and we obey".
Get on with what? So you are saying that the 12th Imam has purposefully left us to misguidance? You are a bigger disaster than Chernobyl!
"Deny it one more time and I will make the screenshot my signature"
BRING IT ON.
"I will make the screenshot my signature"
I know you love to blow your own trumpet.
"And yet the Qur'an guarantees the same Sahaba (ra) paradise. A catastrophe for you"
You need to prove this catastrophe. Lets see and hear it.
"He has done worse"
What did he do. Flee the battlefield from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind abandoned and stranded. Forgiveness or no forgiveness, it doesn't matter, it was still a cowardice act. And no one can deny that or hide it behind forgiveness. Carry on moaning about it.
"Allah (swt) praises Muhajiroon and Ansar without making any distinctions and has Forgiven those who fled from battles"
Allah also mentions plenty of things in the Qur'an. Those who raise their voices in front of the Prophet s.a.w and who put their voices above the Prophet's s.a.w voice. And those who speak and convey secretly behind the Prophet's s.a.w back. And much much more. At the end of the day they weren't saints. Get over it.
"I am not accusing anyone of cowardice. I am making a logical inference based on Shi'i beliefs"
And in response I'm putting reality and facts forward to you. And each time I put it the cat seems to grab your tongue.
"The Guide" whereas he is more concerned about his own safety and well-being despite the fact that he (allegedly) has control over the atoms"
And they suppose to be the companions of the Prophet s.a.w. They suppose to put the Prophet s.a.w before their own lives. But they put it the other way around..They abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded. Some friends and companions. They ran like hell man just to save their own lives. And the verses you speak about in the Qur'an are for those and in praise of those who didn't flee. For those who fought bravely and either perished or remained steadfast in battle. Not for the ones who fled.
"According to your beliefs, the Sahaba (ra) opposed your "infallibles" (ra)"
The Sahaba you speak about opposed the Prophet s.a.w in his final days as well as in the battlefield by fleeing.
"Allah (swt) forgave them and when Allah (swt) decides on a matter, "we hear and we obey".
So does that mean they're not cowards when they flee the battlefield. So does that mean the act of fleeing wasn't cowardly.
As far as Imamah and the 12th Imam is concerned, first free your brainwashed mind by having an open mind and do some research. Otherwise nothing is getting through to you or will get through the to you. You'll be coming back with ridiculous excuses and examples as though you're a child in kindergarten.
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BRING IT ON.
Like the attached image? haha!
You need to prove this catastrophe. Lets see and hear it.
Those who have Allah's (swt) forgiveness are bound to Jannah. Plus, there are ample verses that praise the Sahaba (ra). Unfortunately for you, except Imam Ali (ra), the verses praising Muhajir and Ansar do not apply to your Imams (ra).
What did he do. Flee the battlefield from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind abandoned and stranded.
He did not do anything; he has yet to do something and that is his biggest mistake which completely undermines his position, lol.
Forgiveness or no forgiveness, it doesn't matter, it was still a cowardice act. And no one can deny that or hide it behind forgiveness. Carry on moaning about it.
Allah (swt) did not declare it a cowardice act but Allah's (swt) judgment does not matter to you, does it? It is clear who is moaning here.
Allah also mentions plenty of things in the Qur'an. Those who raise their voices in front of the Prophet s.a.w and who put their voices above the Prophet's s.a.w voice.
This is an old argument for which Hassan Shaytanyari was destroyed by a Sunni brother in Germany. That aside, prove to me the verse condemns them. Go on!
And they suppose to be the companions of the Prophet s.a.w. They suppose to put the Prophet s.a.w before their own lives. But they put it the other way around..They abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded.
And the 12th Imam is supposed to be a descendant of the Holy Prophet (saw). He is supposed to put the religion of the Holy Prophet (saw) before his own life. But he put it the other way around. He abandoned the religion of the Holy Prophet (saw) and left Muslims stranded.
And the verses you speak about in the Qur'an are for those and in praise of those who didn't flee.
Why would Allah (swt) forgive those who did not run? The ones who ran were forgiven and the ones who did not, the verses that praise them do not include your Imams (ra) except Imam Ali (ra).
So 11 out of 12 are out, lol!
The Sahaba you speak about opposed the Prophet s.a.w in his final days as well as in the battlefield by fleeing.
Too bad! For argument's sake, I will pretend your accusations are true. Then again, none of your "infallibles" (ra) could do a darn thing about it. Mere spectators, lol.
As far as Imamah and the 12th Imam is concerned, first free your brainwashed mind by having an open mind and do some research.
First, ask him to present himself before us. No wait, first you've to assemble 313 men. Ah, this keeps going from worse to worst for you lot :P