TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 19, 2018, 03:04:58 AM

Title: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 19, 2018, 03:04:58 AM
Abu Bakr RA & Umar RA as history testifies, were the most suited to be leaders of their time.
Ali RA was a great warrior & pure soul (no not the shia version of infallible). He made a great fighter in battle & a great right hand man to those who were superior to him in terms of leadership i.e the prophet SAW & Abu Bakr RA & Umar RA.
Any objective person can see the strengths & leadership of the first two caliphs vs the fighting & devoutness of Ali RA.
If only the shia were fair.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 15, 2019, 03:17:25 PM
Al-Bukhari | Volume 5 | Book 59 | Hadith 611

Narrated Abu Qatada:

When it was the day of (the battle of) Hunain, I saw a Muslim man fighting with one of the pagans and another pagan was hiding himself behind the Muslim in order to kill him. So I hurried towards the pagan who was hiding behind the Muslim to kill him, and he raised his hand to hit me but I hit his hand and cut it off. That man got hold of me and pressed me so hard that I was afraid (that I would die), then he knelt down and his grip became loose and I pushed him and killed him. The Muslims (excepting the Prophet and some of his companions) started fleeing and I too, fled with them. Suddenly I met 'Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people and I asked him, "What is wrong with the people?" He said, "It is the order of Allah" Then the people returned to Allah's Apostle (after defeating the enemy). Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever produces a proof that he has killed an infidel, will have the spoils of the killed man." So I got up to look for an evidence to prove that I had killed an infidel, but I could not find anyone to bear witness for me, so I sat down. Then it came to my mind (that I should speak of it) and I mentioned the case to Allah's Apostle. A man from the persons who were sitting with him (i.e. the Prophet), said, "The arms of the deceased one whom he ( i.e. Abu Qatada) has mentioned, are with me, so please compensate him for it (i.e. the spoils)," Abu Bakr said, "No, Allah's Apostle will not give it (i.e. the spoils) to a weak humble person from Quraish and leave one of Allah's Lions who fights on behalf of Allah and His Apostle." Allah's Apostle then got up and gave that (spoils) to me, and I bought with it, a garden which was the first property I got after embracing Islam.

According to this 'sahih' hadith, I mean it's safe to say that the 2nd was superious at fleeing for sure hahahaha
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 15, 2019, 03:37:39 PM
Al-Bukhari | Volume 5 | Book 59 | Hadith 611

Narrated Abu Qatada:

When it was the day of (the battle of) Hunain, I saw a Muslim man fighting with one of the pagans and another pagan was hiding himself behind the Muslim in order to kill him. So I hurried towards the pagan who was hiding behind the Muslim to kill him, and he raised his hand to hit me but I hit his hand and cut it off. That man got hold of me and pressed me so hard that I was afraid (that I would die), then he knelt down and his grip became loose and I pushed him and killed him. The Muslims (excepting the Prophet and some of his companions) started fleeing and I too, fled with them. Suddenly I met 'Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people and I asked him, "What is wrong with the people?" He said, "It is the order of Allah" Then the people returned to Allah's Apostle (after defeating the enemy). Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever produces a proof that he has killed an infidel, will have the spoils of the killed man." So I got up to look for an evidence to prove that I had killed an infidel, but I could not find anyone to bear witness for me, so I sat down. Then it came to my mind (that I should speak of it) and I mentioned the case to Allah's Apostle. A man from the persons who were sitting with him (i.e. the Prophet), said, "The arms of the deceased one whom he ( i.e. Abu Qatada) has mentioned, are with me, so please compensate him for it (i.e. the spoils)," Abu Bakr said, "No, Allah's Apostle will not give it (i.e. the spoils) to a weak humble person from Quraish and leave one of Allah's Lions who fights on behalf of Allah and His Apostle." Allah's Apostle then got up and gave that (spoils) to me, and I bought with it, a garden which was the first property I got after embracing Islam.

According to this 'sahih' hadith, I mean it's safe to say that the 2nd was superious at fleeing for sure hahahaha

By the phrase “the people” the Rafidi(Saba’ee) here wants to show us that everyone from the companions fled without exception. The only exception he might give to anyone is ‘Ali(ra). This is a fact that by a generalized term many a times a large portion is also intended instead of each and every individual. This is something obvious, not only in Arabic, but in any language.

His second contention in the above hadith is that since Abu Qatadah found ‘Umar (ra) among the people that means he must be running away. We say: Abu Qatadah did not say ‘Umar was also fleeing with others. If Umar (ra) was with Abu Qatada and those Muslims who were defeated (fleeing), then why did not Abu Qatada say “And Umar was amongst us” instead of saying Umar was amongst the people?. Abu Qatada only found ‘Umar in the rush of the people, this is all what the narration indicates and whatever these Rawafidh conclude from it is based on mere conjecture and speculation. It is possible that ‘Umar was stopping them and trying to make them silent and steady. Even the Prophet(saw) was calling them and stopping them from running away. This is besides the fact that there is a narration quoted earlier which shows that ‘Umar(ra) did not run away.

There is another version for the same hadeeth found in Bukhari which also does not give slightest indication that Umar (ra) was amongst those who took to flight”

Narrated Abu Qatada: We set out in the company of Allah’s Messenger (saw) on the day (of the battle) of Hunain. When we faced the enemy, the Muslims retreated and I saw a pagan throwing himself over a Muslim. I turned around and came upon him from behind and hit him on the shoulder with the sword He (i.e. the pagan) came towards me and seized me so violently that I felt as if it were death itself, but death overtook him and he released me. I followed `Umar bin Al Khattab and asked (him), “What is wrong with the people (fleeing)?” He replied, “This is the Will of Allah,” (Sahih al-Bukhari #3142)

And had the Rafidi taken up little effort to look into the sharh of the hadeeth, he would have saved some dignity, in case they have it.

Sharh Muslim (by Imam Nawawi)
قوله: (كانت للمسلمين جولة) بفتح الجيم أي انهزام وخيفة ذهبوا فيها، وهذا إنما كان في بعض الجيش.
Imam Al-Nawawi commenting on this hadeeths said…that the retreat or defeat was in some of the army (not all).

Sharh Bukhari (by Ibn Hajar)
قوله‏:‏ ‏(‏فلما التقينا كانت للمسلمين جولة‏)‏ بفتح الجيم وسكون الواو أي حركة فيها اختلاف، وقد أطلق في رواية الليث الآتية بعدها أنهم انهزموا، لكن بعد القصة التي ذكرها أبو قتادة، وقد تقدم في حديث البراء أن الجميع لم ينهزموا‏.
Similar comment was also made by Ibn Hajr in his sharh Bukhari who said: ‘and it is mentioned in the narration of Al-Laith which will follow that they were defeated, but (the defeat was) after the story which Abu Qatada mentioned, and it has been preceded in the hadeeths of Al-Bar’a that all were not defeated.’

Hadeeth and Books of Seerah explicitly state that Umar(ra) was among those who did not flee.

(i). We read the SAHIH Hadith in “Musnad Ahmad” volume 23 page 274 Hadith #14731:
فَانْطَلَقَ النَّاسُ إِلَّا أَنَّ مَعَ رَسُولِ اللهِ صَلَّىاللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ رَهْطًا مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالْأَنْصَارِ، وَأَهْلِ بَيْتِهِغَيْرَ كَثِيرٍ، ثَبَتَ مَعَهُ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ،وَمِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِهِ، عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ، وَالْعَبَّاسُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ،وَابْنُهُ الْفَضْلُ بْنُ عَبَّاسٍ، وَأَبُو سُفْيَانَ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ، وَرَبِيعَةُبْنُ الْحَارِثِ، وَأَيْمَنُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ وَهُوَ ابْنُ أُمِّ أَيْمَنَ، وَأُسَامَةُبْنُ زَيْدٍ، قَالَ: وَرَجُلٌ مِنْ هَوَازِنَ عَلَى جَمَلٍ لَهُ أَحْمَرَ فِي يَدِهِرَايَةٌ لَهُ سَوْدَاءُ فِي رَأْسِ رُمْحٍ طَوِيلٍ لَهُ أَمَامَ النَّاسِ، وَهَوَازِنُخَلْفَهُ

Ya’qoub narrated from his Father from Ibn Ishaq from ‘Assim ibn ‘Umar bin Qatada from ‘Abdul-Rahman ibn Jabir from Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah: The people retreated but the Prophet(saw) was accompanied by a group from the Mouhajirun and the Ansar and his Ahlul-Bayt, Those who held their ground and stayed with him were Abu Bakr an ‘Umar and from his Ahlul-Bayt ‘Ali ibn abi Talib and al-‘Abbas bin ‘Abdul-Mutallib and his son al-Fadl and Abu Suffiyan bin al-Harith and Raba’iyah bin al-Harith and Ayman bin ‘Ubeid and he is ibn Umm-Ayman and Usamah ibn Zaid, he said: and a Man from Hawzan (until the end of the narration).

(ii). This is also mentioned in the book “Majma’a al-Zawaed” under “Kitab al-Maghazi wal Siyar” in the chapter “Ghazwat Hunein” Hadith # 10265:

وعن جابر بن عبد الله قال : لما استقبلنا وادي حنين قال : انحدرنا في واد من أودية تهامة أجوف حطوط إنما ننحدر فيه انحدارا ، قال : وفي عماية الصبح ، وقد كان القوم قد كمنوا لنا في شعابه ، وفي أجنابه ، ومضائقه ، قد أجمعوا وتهيئوا وأعدوا
قال : فوالله ما راعنا ونحن منحطون إلا الكتائب قد شدت علينا شدة رجل واحد ، وانهزم الناس راجعين فانشمروا لا يلوي أحد على أحد
وانحاز رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – ذات اليمين ، ثم قال : ” إلي أيها الناس ، إلا أن مع رسول الله – صلى الله عليه وسلم – رهطا من المهاجرين والأنصار ، وأهل بيته غير كثير
وفي من ثبت معه أبو بكر وعمر ، عليهما السلام ، ومن أهل بيته علي بن أبي طالب ، والعباس بن عبد المطلب ، وابنه الفضل بن عباس ، وأبو سفيان بن الحارث ، وربيعة بن الحارث ، وأيمن بن عبيد وهو ابن أم أيمن ، وأسامة بن زيد ، عليهما السلام
قال : ورجل من هوازن على جمل له أحمر ، في يده راية له سوداء في رأس رمح له طويل أمام الناس وهوازن خلفه ، فإذا أدرك طعن برمحه ، فإذا فاته الناس رفع لمن وراءه فاتبعوه

(iii). Al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya of Ibn Kathir:
فلما رأى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أمر الناس ومعه رهط من أهل بيته‏:‏ علي بن أبي طالب، وأبو سفيان ابن الحارث بن عبد المطلب، وأخوه ربيعة بن الحارث بن عبد المطلب، والفضل بن العباس، وقيل الفضيل بن أبي سفيان، وأيمن ابن أم أيمن، وأسامة بن زيد‏.‏
ومن الناس من يزيد فيهم قثم بن العباس، ورهط من المهاجرين‏:‏ منهم أبو بكر، وعمر، والعباس آخذ بحكمة بغلته البيضاء وهو عليها قد شجرها‏.‏
It mentions the names of those who stood firm with prophet…(and group of Al-Ansar: Among them Abu Bakr, Umar and Abbas…)

Similarly, we read in Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

There remained between a hundred and eighty Companions with the Prophet . These included Abu Bakr, `Umar, Al-`Abbas, `Ali, Al-Fadl bin `Abbas, Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith, Ayman the son of Umm Ayman and Usamah bin Zayd. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)

(iv). Al-Seerah Al-Nabawi of ibn Hisham:

من ثبت معه صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏:‏
وفيمن ثبت معه من المهاجرين أبو بكر وعمر ، ومن أهل بيته علي بن أبي طالب والعباس بن عبدالمطلب ، وأبو سفيان بن الحارث ، وابنه ، والفضل بن العباس ، وربيعة بن الحارث ، وأسامة بن زيد ، وأيمن بن عبيد ، قتل يومئذ ‏.‏
Those who stood firm with the Messenger :
And those who stood firm with him from among the Muhajirin were Abu Bakr and Umar, and from Ahlul Bayt Ali bin Abi Talib and Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib…

(v). Tariq Al-Rusool Wal-Mulook of At-Tabari
رواية الطبري في كتابه تاريخ الرسل والملوك التي ذكر فيها ثبات سيدنا ابوبكر وعمر وعلي رضي الله عنهما يوم حنين
إلا أنه قد بقي مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم نفر من المهاجرين والأنصار وأهل بيته. وممن ثبت معه من المهاجرين أبو بكر، عمر، ومن أهل بيته علي بن أبي طالب، والعباس بن عبد المطلب، وأبنه الفضل، وأبو سفيان بن الحارث،
At-Tabari narrated in his book Tariq Al-Rusool Wal-Mulook where he mentions the firmness of Abu Bakr, Umar and Ali (may Allah be pleased with them all) on the day of Al-Hunain.

There remain with Messenger of Allah (saw) group of Muhajirin and Ansar and from his Ahlul Bait. And among those who stood firm from Al-Muhajirin were Abu Bakr, Umar and from his Ahlul Bayt Ali bin Abi Talib, Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib,…

(vi). Al-Maghazi
قال حدثني عبد الرحمن بن عبد العزيز عن عاصم بن عمرو بن قتادة ، عن عبد الرحمن بن جابر بن عبد الله عن أبيه قال لما انكشف الناس والله ما رجعت راجعة هزيمتهم حتى وجد الأسرى عند النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم مكتفين . قال والتفت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يومئذ إلى أبي سفيان بن الحارث وهو مقنع في الحديد وكان ممن صبر يومئذ وهو آخذ بثفر بغلة النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال من هذا ؟ قال ابن أمك يا رسول الله . ويقال إنه قال من أنت ؟ قال أخوك – فداك أبي وأمي – أبو سفيان بن الحارث . فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم نعم أخي ، ناولني حصى من الأرض فناولته فرمى بها في أعينهم كلهم . وانهزموا . قالوا : فلما انكشف الناس انحاز رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ذات اليمين وهو واقف على دابته لم ينزل . إلا أنه قد جرد سيفه وطرح غمده وبقي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في نفر من المهاجرين والأنصار وأهل بيته العباس وعلي ، والفضل بن عباس ، وأبو سفيان بن الحارث ، وربيعة بن الحارث ، وأيمن بن عبيد الخزرجي ، وأسامة بن زيد ، وأبو بكر ، وعمر عليهم السلام

Al-Waqidi in his book Al-Maghazi mentions hadeeths of Jabir bin Abdullah

The Messenger of Allah (saw) remained with a group of al-Muhajirin and al-Ansaar and from his Ahlul Bait Al-Abbas, Ali, Al-Fadl bin Abbas, Abu Sufyan Ibn Al-Harith and Rabee’a bin Al-Harith…. Abu Bakr and Umar.

(vii). Zaad Al-Ma’ad
الامام ابن القيم رحمه الله
قال ابن إسحاق : فحدثني عاصم بن عمر بن قتادة ، عن عبد الرحمن بن جابر ، عن أبيه جابر بن عبد الله ، قال لما استقبلنا وادي حنين ، انحدرنا في واد من أودية تهامة أجوف حطوط إنما ننحدر فيه انحدارا . قال وفي عماية الصبح وكان القوم سبقونا إلى الوادي ، فكمنوا لنا في شعابه وأحنائه ومضايقه قد أجمعوا ، وتهيئوا ، وأعدوا فوالله ما راعنا – ونحن منحطون – إلا الكتائب قد شدوا علينا شدة رجل واحد وانشمر الناس راجعين لا يلوي أحد منهم على أحد ، وانحاز رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ذات اليمين ثم قال إلى أين أيها الناس ؟ هلم إلي أنا رسول الله أنا محمد بن عبد الله وبقي مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم نفر من المهاجرين والأنصار وأهل بيته وفيمن ثبت معه من المهاجرين أبو بكر وعمر ، ومن أهل بيته علي والعباس وأبو سفيان بن الحارث وابنه والفضل بن العباس ، وربيعة بن الحارث ، وأسامة بن زيد ، وأيمن ابن أم أيمن ، وقتل يومئذ .
Imam ibnul Qayyim(rh) in his book Zaad Al-Ma’ad mentions same hadeeths of Jabir bin Abdullah but through different narrator.

And there remain with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings upon him) group from al-Muhajirin and al-Ansaar and from his Ahlul Bait, among them who stood firm from al-Muhajirin were Abu Bakr and Umar, and from his Ahlul Bayt Ali, Al-Abbas….

(viii). Al-Seerat al-Halabiyah
وانحاز رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ذات اليمين ومعه نفر قليل، منهم أبو بكر وعمر وعليّ والعباس وابنه الفضل وأبو سفيان ابن أخيه الحارث وربيعة بن الحارث ومعتب ابن عمه أبي لهب، وفقئت عينه، ولم أقف على أيهما كانت، أي ووردت في عدّ من ثبت معه روايات مختلفة، فقيل مائة، وقيل ثمانون، وقيل اثنا عشر، وقيل عشرة، وقيل كانوا ثلاثمائة.
The Messenger (saw) moved to his right and with him were few people, among them Abu Bakr and Umar and Ali and Abbas and his son, Al-fadel Abu Sufyan….. those who stood firm with him (saw) there are different narrations, it is said hundred, and it is said eighty, and it is said twelve, and it is said ten, and it is said three hundred.

(ix). Muhammad bin Ishaq, the Imam of Maghazi, narrates from ‘Aasim bin ‘Umar bin Qatadah from Abdur-Rahman bin Jabir bin ‘Abdullah from his father and in it he mentions those who remained with the Prophet (saw): Among his family members: ‘Ali, Abu Sufyan bin Harith bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, Rabi’ah bin Harith bin ‘Abdul Muttalib,  Fadhl bin ‘Abbas, ‘Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib. Among others: Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, Usamah bin Zaid, Ayman bin ‘Ubaid [It was recorded by Ahmad bin Hanbal in Musnad (15027) and Al-Bayhaqi in Dalail an-Nubuwwah (5/126-127).]

By reading this hadeeth carefully and also after looking at other reports, the event thus can be explained in the following manner: “When the enemy launched its brutal and surprise attack on Muslim fighters, Abu Qatada was busy fighting and repelling the aggression when all of a sudden he notices that Muslims forces retreating, so in a confused state he too retreats with them. While retreating, he notices Umar(ra) among group of people (i.e. steadfast fighters) and asks him about the retreat of those Muslim fighters. To that Umar(ra) replies, “It is the decree of Allah”.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 15, 2019, 03:41:35 PM
Al-Bukhari | Volume 5 | Book 59 | Hadith 611

Narrated Abu Qatada:

When it was the day of (the battle of) Hunain, I saw a Muslim man fighting with one of the pagans and another pagan was hiding himself behind the Muslim in order to kill him. So I hurried towards the pagan who was hiding behind the Muslim to kill him, and he raised his hand to hit me but I hit his hand and cut it off. That man got hold of me and pressed me so hard that I was afraid (that I would die), then he knelt down and his grip became loose and I pushed him and killed him. The Muslims (excepting the Prophet and some of his companions) started fleeing and I too, fled with them. Suddenly I met 'Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people and I asked him, "What is wrong with the people?" He said, "It is the order of Allah" Then the people returned to Allah's Apostle (after defeating the enemy). Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever produces a proof that he has killed an infidel, will have the spoils of the killed man." So I got up to look for an evidence to prove that I had killed an infidel, but I could not find anyone to bear witness for me, so I sat down. Then it came to my mind (that I should speak of it) and I mentioned the case to Allah's Apostle. A man from the persons who were sitting with him (i.e. the Prophet), said, "The arms of the deceased one whom he ( i.e. Abu Qatada) has mentioned, are with me, so please compensate him for it (i.e. the spoils)," Abu Bakr said, "No, Allah's Apostle will not give it (i.e. the spoils) to a weak humble person from Quraish and leave one of Allah's Lions who fights on behalf of Allah and His Apostle." Allah's Apostle then got up and gave that (spoils) to me, and I bought with it, a garden which was the first property I got after embracing Islam.

According to this 'sahih' hadith, I mean it's safe to say that the 2nd was superious at fleeing for sure hahahaha

Here is the same hadith occurring in the same chapter but one before.  In other words, you quoted hadith 611, here is hadith 610.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 611

Narrated Abu Qatada:

We set out along with the Prophet during the year of (the battle of) Hunain, and when we faced the enemy, the Muslims (with the exception of the Prophet and some of his companions) retreated (before the enemy).  I saw one of the pagans over-powering one of the Muslims, so I struck the pagan from behind his neck causing his armor to be cut off.  The pagan headed towards me and pressed me so forcibly that I felt as if I was dying.  Then death took him over and he released me.  Afterwards I followed 'Umar and said to him, "What is wrong with the people?"  He said, "It is the Order of Allah."  Then the Muslims returned (to the battle after the flight) and (after overcoming the enemy) the Prophet sat and said, "Whoever had killed an Infidel and has an evidence to this issue, will have the Salb (i.e. the belonging of the deceased e.g. clothes, arms, horse, etc)."  I (stood up) and said, "Who will be my witness?" and then sat down.  Then the Prophet repeated his question.  Then the Prophet said the same (for the third time).  I got up and said, "Who will be my witness?" and then sat down.  The Prophet asked his former question again.  So I got up.  The Prophet said, What is the matter, O Abu Qatada?"  So I narrated the whole story; A man said, "Abu Qatada has spoken the truth, and the Salb of the deceased is with me, so please compensate Abu Qatada on my behalf."  Abu Bakr said, "No! By Allah, it will never happen that the Prophet will leave a Lion of Allah who fights for the Sake of Allah and His Apostle and give his spoils to you."  The Prophet said, "Abu Bakr has spoken the truth.  Give it (the spoils) back to him (O man)!"  So he gave it to me and I bought a garden in (the land of) Banu Salama with it (i.e. the spoils) and that was the first property I got after embracing Islam.

The one I have quoted quite clearly mentions the fact that the Prophet (saw) and some of his Companions (ra) did not retreat.  How do you extrapolate your understanding from the phrase, "...and I too, fled with them.  Suddenly I met 'Umar bin Al-Khattab amongst the people..."?  Does it say that Umar (ra) also fled?

Since running is your second favorite topic after testicles, I will remind you of a champion hyper-marathon runner who has been on the run for over a 1000 years, a feat no other human can outmatch.  He has forsaken his responsibility of guiding the Ummah and has hit the trails.  Somehow his cowardice is not an issue for some people, including yourself.  I mean, we all know what happened to Yunus (asws) when he walked away from his duties but this hotshot is running like its a long Nike commercial.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 15, 2019, 03:44:47 PM
You fools the exceptions have been named, there was only 7 I believe and your beloveds were not from amongst them. Sorry not sorry
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 15, 2019, 03:52:23 PM
You fools the exceptions have been named, there was only 7 I believe and your beloveds were not from amongst them. Sorry not sorry

Demi Lovato fan?  All makes sense now!  Anyways, even if we go by your interpretation, here is what the Qur'an says which ironically is also found on Al-Islam.org, a Shi'i website.  In fact, I found this passage there (while searching for it).

https://www.al-islam.org/alphabetical-index-holy-quran/battle-hunain

[9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.

[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.

[9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 15, 2019, 03:58:06 PM
[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.

those who run away from battle are not believers according to the Quran shareef so unlucky there mate
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 15, 2019, 04:03:16 PM
al-Bukhari | Book of the Merits of the Ansar | Hadith 3603

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

While 'Umar was at home in a state of fear, there came Al-'As bin Wail As-Sahmi Abu 'Amr, wearing an embroidered cloak and a shirt having silk hems. He was from the tribe of Bani Sahm who were our allies during the pre-Islamic period of ignorance. Al-'As said to 'Umar "What is wrong with you?" He said, "Your people claim that they would kill me if I become a Muslim." Al-'As said, "Nobody will harm you after I have given protection to you." So Al-'As went out and met the people streaming in the whole valley. He said, "Where are you going?" They said, "We want Ibn Al-Khattab who has embraced Islam." Al-'As said, "There is no way for anybody to touch him." So the people retreated.

Here is another accolade of bravery for the 2nd.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 15, 2019, 04:07:21 PM
al-Bukhari | Volume 8 | Book 82 | Hadith 820

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and 'Umar also turned out such-and-such person.

hahahahahah I am not even going to say anthing
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 15, 2019, 04:17:54 PM
those who run away from battle are not believers according to the Quran shareef so unlucky there mate

Where does it say in the Qur'an "shareef" that those who run away are not believers?  Even if we assume that Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, how can you refuse the Qur'an "shareef" when it says they were all forgiven?  And then you cry we compare you (Shias) to Jews.  Well it is quite similar; they refused Clear Signs and you are doing the same.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 15, 2019, 04:25:58 PM
al-Bukhari | Book of the Merits of the Ansar | Hadith 3603

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

While 'Umar was at home in a state of fear, there came Al-'As bin Wail As-Sahmi Abu 'Amr, wearing an embroidered cloak and a shirt having silk hems. He was from the tribe of Bani Sahm who were our allies during the pre-Islamic period of ignorance. Al-'As said to 'Umar "What is wrong with you?" He said, "Your people claim that they would kill me if I become a Muslim." Al-'As said, "Nobody will harm you after I have given protection to you." So Al-'As went out and met the people streaming in the whole valley. He said, "Where are you going?" They said, "We want Ibn Al-Khattab who has embraced Islam." Al-'As said, "There is no way for anybody to touch him." So the people retreated.

Here is another accolade of bravery for the 2nd.


Is it wrong for humans to have fear?  Musa (asws) was fearful, as says the Qur'an, before he confronted Pharaoh.  Returning to Umar (ra) and the hadith you have quoted, at least Umar (ra) came out when he was guaranteed protection.  Your tragedy is that your scared hiding Imam needs 313 men and from among millions of Shi'i men, you cannot even produce 313 to convince your hidden scared guide to come out of the cave.

Quote
al-Bukhari | Volume 8 | Book 82 | Hadith 820

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and 'Umar also turned out such-and-such person.

I thought I was the one with poor English skills but here you have proved your ignorance not only in English but in the basic requirement of hadith interpretation: knowing Arabic or consulting someone who knows Arabic.

The Prophet (saw) cursed effeminate men and turned them out (of his house) and Umar (ra) followed suit and turned "such and such" (unnamed) person out of his house.  In other words, the Prophet (saw) asked an unnamed effeminate man to leave his house and Umar (ra) did the same.

Quote
hahahahahah I am not even going to say anthing

Yeah coz just like the effeminate were turned out or asked to leave, you have been shown the door too.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 15, 2019, 04:32:37 PM
al-Bukhari | Book of the Merits of the Ansar | Hadith 3603

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

While 'Umar was at home in a state of fear, there came Al-'As bin Wail As-Sahmi Abu 'Amr, wearing an embroidered cloak and a shirt having silk hems. He was from the tribe of Bani Sahm who were our allies during the pre-Islamic period of ignorance. Al-'As said to 'Umar "What is wrong with you?" He said, "Your people claim that they would kill me if I become a Muslim." Al-'As said, "Nobody will harm you after I have given protection to you." So Al-'As went out and met the people streaming in the whole valley. He said, "Where are you going?" They said, "We want Ibn Al-Khattab who has embraced Islam." Al-'As said, "There is no way for anybody to touch him." So the people retreated.

Here is another accolade of bravery for the 2nd.

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: When Umar became Muslim, Quraysh did not know of that. He said: Who among the people of Makkah is most likely to tell others of what he hears? It was said to him: Jameel ibn Muammar al-Jumahi. So he went out to him, and I followed him to see what he was doing. I was a young boy but I understood everything I saw and heard. He went to him and said, O Jameel, I have become Muslim. By Allah, he did not answer him, but he got up, dragging his garment, and Umar followed him and I followed my father. He went and stood at the door of the mosque and yelled at the top of his voice: O Quraysh! – for they were gathered around the Kabah – Umar ibn al-Khattab has apostatized! Umar said from behind him, He is lying. Rather I have become Muslim and I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his Slave and Messenger. They attacked him, but Umar leapt on Utbah ibn Rabeeah and sat on him; he started to beat him and poke his fingers in his eyes, and Utbah started screaming. Then the people kept away from him. Umar stood up and went around to all the places where he used to sit with people when he had been a disbeliever, and openly declared his Islam. (Ar-Riyad an-Nadrah, page 319). He kept fighting them until the sun reached its zenith, and Umar got tired and sat down. They gathered around him and he said: What do you want? Whilst they were like that, there came a man who was wearing a silken hullah(suit) and an embroidered shirt. He said: What is the matter with you? They said: The son of al-Khattab has changed his religion. He said: So what? A man can choose a religion for himself. Do you think that Bani Adi will let you get away with it if you kill their companion? So they dispersed. I [Ibn Umar] said to him in Madeenah: O my father, who was the man who turned the people back from you that day? He said: O my son, that was al-As ibn Wail as-Sahmi.[Fadail as-Sahabah by Ahmad, 1/346. Isnad Hasan]

Abdullah Ibn Mas’ud (ra) said:
مَازِلْنَا أَعِزَّةً مُنْذُ أَسْلَمَ عُمَرُ
“We have been powerful since the time ‘Umar accepted Islam.” [Sahih Bukhari (3684) (3863)]

In fact, Umar(ra) entering into Islam was the result of the supplication made by the Messenger of Allah(saw). Hence Imam Ahmad narrates in Musnad and Ibn Hibban in Sahih (6881) that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said:
اللَّهُمَّ أَعِزَّ الدِّينَ بِأَحَبِّ هَذَيْنِ الرَّجُلَيْنِ إِلَيْكَ: بِأَبِي جَهْلِ بْنِ هِشَامٍ، أَوْ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ
“O Allah provide strength to Islam through either of the two whom you love more: Abu Jahl bin Hisham or ‘Umar bin al-Khattab.”

Abdullah ibn Masood said: We felt a sense of pride when Umar became Muslim, for we could not circumambulate the House(Kabah) and pray, until Umar became Muslim. When he became Muslim, he fought them until they left us alone. Then we prayed and circumambulated the Kabah.(Fadail Sahabah, 1/344. Isnad Hasan]

Ibn Masood said: Umar’s becoming Muslim was a victory, his migration was help, and his caliphate was a mercy. We could not pray or circumambulate the House(Kabah) until Umar became Muslim. When he became Muslim, he fought them until they left us alone and let us pray.(Ash Shaykhain Abu Bakr wa Umar, page 141)

Suhayb ibn Sinan said: When Umar ibn al-Khattab became Muslim, Islam came out into the open and the call to Islam was made in public. We sat around the Kabah in circles, and we circumambulated the house and settled our scores with those who had persecuted us. We started to hit back.(At-Tabaqat al Kubra, 3/269. Sifat as-Safwah 1/274).
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 15, 2019, 04:39:00 PM
al-Bukhari | Volume 8 | Book 82 | Hadith 820

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and 'Umar also turned out such-and-such person.

hahahahahah I am not even going to say anthing

 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet (SAWS) cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses ." The Prophet (SAWS) turned out such-and-such person, and `Umar turned out such-and-such person. [Sahih Vol. 7, Book 72, Hadith 774]

Why is this person laughing? Seems a retard to me.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 15, 2019, 11:49:29 PM
Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet (SAWS) cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses ." The Prophet (SAWS) turned out such-and-such person, and `Umar turned out such-and-such person. [Sahih Vol. 7, Book 72, Hadith 774]

Why is this person laughing? Seems a retard to me.

Because this hadith is clealy a fabrication which inferrs that the Prophet had effemenate men in his house and then it throws Umar in the mix also.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 16, 2019, 12:16:30 AM
Because this hadith is clealy a fabrication which inferrs that the Prophet had effemenate men in his house and then it throws Umar in the mix also.

How does it fit in the thread about caliphs?

The hadeeth simply means that Prophet(saws) and Umar(as) would send out a person which a certain characteristic if they visited their home.

Seems no rational reason to laugh. That’s why I called you seem to be a retard.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 16, 2019, 12:37:15 AM
Where does it say in the Qur'an "shareef" that those who run away are not believers?  Even if we assume that Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, how can you refuse the Qur'an "shareef" when it says they were all forgiven?  And then you cry we compare you (Shias) to Jews.  Well it is quite similar; they refused Clear Signs and you are doing the same.

Here you go:

O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 16, 2019, 12:50:55 AM
Here you go:

O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

The verse is clearly talking about a situation of war. So stop making foolish arguments.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 16, 2019, 01:08:24 AM
The verse is clearly talking about a situation of war. So stop making foolish arguments.

someone asked me to bring proof from the Quran Shareef that running away from the battlefield is kufr and I did exactly that.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 16, 2019, 03:43:31 AM
someone asked me to bring proof from the Quran Shareef that running away from the battlefield is kufr and I did exactly that.

Why did you quote the hadeeth genius? It’s not talking about state of war? Are you mentally stable ?
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 16, 2019, 06:07:23 AM
Why did you quote the hadeeth genius? It’s not talking about state of war? Are you mentally stable ?

The hadith which I quoted clearly highlights that Umar fled from the Battle of Hunayn, so much so that another fleeing had to flee from the battle itself to then catch up to him. And then I tied this act of Umar to kufr as it is mentioned in the Quran Shareef that fleeing from a holy war, which Hunayn most definetly was, will result in an abode in Hell.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 16, 2019, 09:06:50 AM
The hadith which I quoted clearly highlights that Umar fled from the Battle of Hunayn, so much so that another fleeing had to flee from the battle itself to then catch up to him. And then I tied this act of Umar to kufr as it is mentioned in the Quran Shareef that fleeing from a holy war, which Hunayn most definetly was, will result in an abode in Hell.
And you were refuted with a clear refutation for your clear ignorance and misunderstanding.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 16, 2019, 01:59:35 PM
Here you go:

O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

In post # 6, you claimed, "those who run away from battle are not believers according to the Quran shareef so unlucky there mate".  I asked you to show me the verse and you quoted Surah Al-Anfal verses 15 and 16.

Before I refute you on this point, I had to expose you on your other lie.  Under the pretext of being busy, you are still to share the alleged hadiths in Sahihain by way of Umar ibn Sa'ad.  All of a sudden, you were not too busy to share these verses to support your argument.  Could it be that there are no reports from ibn Sa'ad in Sahihain?

Returning to the verses you shared, you have made the exact blunder as Hassan Shaytanyari when he made the biggest mistake of his life by calling brother Khobaib Sadat on his show.

The passage opens with "O ye who believe...." so the ones being addressed are believers, not disbelievers.  Furthermore, the verse warns them that deserting the battlefield will draw Allah's (swt) wrath upon them and they will be placed in Hell.  How does that constitute disbelief?  Muslims anger Allah (swt) and we know that sinning Muslims, albeit not permanently, will spend some time in Hellfire before they are taken to Heaven.

To conclude, the verse does not say "those who run away from battle are not believers" so guess whose unlucky now, mate!
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 16, 2019, 07:34:20 PM
O You Who Have Believed, When You Meet Those Who Disbelieve Advancing [For Battle], Do Not Turn To Them Your Backs [In Flight]. And Whoever Turns His Back To Them On Such A Day, Unless Swerving [As A Strategy] For War Or Joining [Another] Company, Has Certainly Returned With Anger [Upon Him] From Allah, And His Refuge Is Hell - And Wretched Is The Destination.” (Al-Anfal: 15-16)
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 16, 2019, 08:09:18 PM
O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. (Surah Al-Anfal, 15)

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)! (Surah Al-Anfal, 16)

O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah At-Tawba, 38)

Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.For Allah hath power over all things. (Surah At-Tawba, 39)
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 16, 2019, 08:43:11 PM
The Muslim majority are constantly finding ways to defend the companions from blemishes. For this they mount vague defences like ‘Adalat-e-Sahabah’ i.e. the Companions can do no wrong. However, when very obvious wrongs like fleeing from battles (Uhud, Khaibar, Hunain,) is pointed out, they claim that although these were major sins, but Allah has forgiven them so we must also ignore them.

The Muslims attempt to sanitize the companions by claiming they were forgiven for fleeing. The point is when companions were forgiven then it proves they were not Adil, else why would they need forgiveness. And if they were in need of divine forgiveness just like others then how are they superior to Muslims of the past, present and future?

If every fleeing and misdemeanour of the companions is forgiven then what is left for the Muslims to respect and honour in companionship of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.)? The Muslims of later ages who did not slip up in their Islam are decidedly superior even if they did not get the opportunity to spend time in the company of the Prophet (s.a.w.a.).
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 17, 2019, 02:14:59 PM
O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. (Surah Al-Anfal, 15)

If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)! (Surah Al-Anfal, 16)

O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. (Surah At-Tawba, 38)

Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least.For Allah hath power over all things. (Surah At-Tawba, 39)

Quick to his defense despite not knowing him.  Birds of the same feather flock together!  Nothing you have quoted says that "those who run away from battle are not believers".  If you were trying to defend Hassan Shaytanyari, that is a different matter.  He was utterly refuted and so will you, like always!
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 17, 2019, 02:39:47 PM
Quick to his defense despite not knowing him.  Birds of the same feather flock together!  Nothing you have quoted says that "those who run away from battle are not believers".  If you were trying to defend Hassan Shaytanyari, that is a different matter.  He was utterly refuted and so will you, like always!

I know you can't do any better. No one can save the guilty and the wrong no matter how hard we try. It's about time you stepped out of favouritism and taking sides and start being honest and just with yourself and your faith.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 17, 2019, 03:28:40 PM
I know you can't do any better. No one can save the guilty and the wrong no matter how hard we try. It's about time you stepped out of favouritism and taking sides and start being honest and just with yourself and your faith.

I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, I have already proved from the Qur'an - Surah At-Tawbah verses 25 through 27 - that Allah (swt) forgave all who fled during Hunain.

[9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155:

"Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But God Has blotted out (their fault): For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing."
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 17, 2019, 06:27:22 PM
I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, I have already proved from the Qur'an - Surah At-Tawbah verses 25 through 27 - that Allah (swt) forgave all who fled during Hunain.

[9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155:

"Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But God Has blotted out (their fault): For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing."

"While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain"

Did Umar flee during any other battle? Was he so brave and courageous that he didn't flee at all.

"Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155"

Ok, so how are they superior to and than those who didn't flee? Come on man, give it a rest by accepting reality.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 17, 2019, 07:33:03 PM
I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

While T110 failed to prove Umar (ra) fled during Hunain, I have already proved from the Qur'an - Surah At-Tawbah verses 25 through 27 - that Allah (swt) forgave all who fled during Hunain.

[9:25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.
[9:26] Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[9:27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Allah (swt) also forgave those who fled during the Battle of Uhud in Surah Ale Imran verse 155:

"Those of you who turned back on the day the two hosts Met,-it was Satan who caused them to fail, because of some (evil) they had done. But God Has blotted out (their fault): For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing."

This is what Allah says about those who flee from battle.

"If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!"(Surah Al-Anfal, 16)

And those that flee or have fled, wouldn't you at least call them cowards. And how can they be better than others.

"Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers". 

Show me where and when I said or made a claim that they were not believers or became disbelievers because of fleeing.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 17, 2019, 09:16:43 PM
Show me where and when I said or made a claim that they were not believers or became disbelievers because of fleeing.

My challenge was to T110 who made that very claim.  Next time, try to learn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 18, 2019, 03:55:15 PM
My challenge was to T110 who made that very claim.  Next time, try to learn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it.

And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

Never knew 'beleivers' could go to hell, espescially those who are superior to Ali (AS), the one who never prostrated to any idols.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 18, 2019, 04:59:11 PM
My challenge was to T110 who made that very claim.  Next time, try to learn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it.

This is what you said to me in post #27,

:I cannot do better so why don't you?  Show me explicitly where it says in the Qur'an that "those who run away from battle are not believers"

So now do I still need tol earn the context of an issue before you stick your nose in it. Your challenge wasn't just to him but it was directed to me as well. Get your facts right before shooting your mouth off like that. Because it doesn't make you look good.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 19, 2019, 06:21:57 AM
And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah, and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

Never knew 'beleivers' could go to hell, espescially those who are superior to Ali (AS), the one who never prostrated to any idols.

You can try in vain to save face or just apologize for lying upon the Qur'an.  No where does it say that deserting the battlefield constitutes disbelief.  On the contrary, I showed how Allah (swt) has already forgiven those who fled during Hunain and Uhud.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: T110 on May 20, 2019, 05:48:03 AM
You can try in vain to save face or just apologize for lying upon the Qur'an.  No where does it say that deserting the battlefield constitutes disbelief.  On the contrary, I showed how Allah (swt) has already forgiven those who fled during Hunain and Uhud.

That sakina (divine tranquility) and foregiveness was for only the believers amonst the army and the Prophet (SAWW) himself ofcourse.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 20, 2019, 01:49:31 PM
That sakina (divine tranquility) and foregiveness was for only the believers amonst the army and the Prophet (SAWW) himself ofcourse.

And as show, Allah's (swt) forgiveness stayed with those who fled battlefields (Hunain and Uhud).  Now, time for you to show us proof for your claim. 
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on May 20, 2019, 04:54:06 PM
And as show, Allah's (swt) forgiveness stayed with those who fled battlefields (Hunain and Uhud).  Now, time for you to show us proof for your claim.

"And as show, Allah's (swt) forgiveness stayed with those who fled battlefields (Hunain and Uhud)"

So how are they superior than those who didn't flee. There are two categories, those who are BRAVE and those who are COWARDS. Which category would you put those who fled? Or would you create a different category to protect and save their reputation.

Allah forgave them, how does this mean their reputation, character and honour is the same as the others, let alone being superior than others, which is out of the question to begin with.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on May 20, 2019, 05:32:06 PM
So how are they superior than those who didn't flee.

Ranking the Sahaba (ra) based on their performance on the battlefield is not the point being discussed.

Quote
There are two categories, those who are BRAVE and those who are COWARDS. Which category would you put those who fled?

According to the Qur'an, both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise.

Quote
Or would you create a different category to protect and save their reputation.

You asked "which category would you put those who fled" and then accuse me of trying to save reputation?  For anyone with an ounce of honesty, it is clear that you are trying to create categories to save the reputation of your ideology but failing.  Actually, you are trying to salvage T110's.

Quote
Allah forgave them, how does this mean their reputation, character and honour is the same as the others, let alone being superior than others, which is out of the question to begin with.

If you had learned anything from the Qur'an, you would know not to run your mouth after Allah (swt) has sealed a matter.  Wallaahi, the Shias emulate Iblees; despite clear-cut, explicit instructions from Allah (swt), Shias just can't give up.  They have to put their own ego ahead of Allah's (swt) Word.

Iblees posed the question as to how can the one created from clay be superior to the one made from fire?  Shias ask how can the ones who fled be on the same pedestal as those who remained and fought. 

Your misguidance is from the very get-go, never mind the fact that you cannot even establish that Umar (ra) fled.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Moin on May 20, 2019, 05:49:26 PM
Read this:
https://alsonnah.wordpress.com/2014/12/14/who-was-the-bravest-companion-ibn-hazm/
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 04, 2019, 07:12:37 PM
Ranking the Sahaba (ra) based on their performance on the battlefield is not the point being discussed.

According to the Qur'an, both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise.

You asked "which category would you put those who fled" and then accuse me of trying to save reputation?  For anyone with an ounce of honesty, it is clear that you are trying to create categories to save the reputation of your ideology but failing.  Actually, you are trying to salvage T110's.

If you had learned anything from the Qur'an, you would know not to run your mouth after Allah (swt) has sealed a matter.  Wallaahi, the Shias emulate Iblees; despite clear-cut, explicit instructions from Allah (swt), Shias just can't give up.  They have to put their own ego ahead of Allah's (swt) Word.

Iblees posed the question as to how can the one created from clay be superior to the one made from fire?  Shias ask how can the ones who fled be on the same pedestal as those who remained and fought. 

Your misguidance is from the very get-go, never mind the fact that you cannot even establish that Umar (ra) fled.

Why are you soooo embarrassed to give a straightforward answer. A clear and cut answer.

"Ranking the Sahaba (ra) based on their performance on the battlefield is not the point being discussed"

We're not ranking the Sahaba. Those who fled from the battlefield to save their lives like cowards and those who stood firm and bravely fought not worrying about their lives, there is an absolute clear cut difference. Not that being a coward and fleeing is a crime or fault. Just want to make that clear.

"According to the Qur'an, both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise"

Both parties are forgiven? 😀 What do you mean by BOTH PARTIES? What, those who flee and those who didn't are both forgiven? What was the mistake of those who didn't flee? Why did they need forgiving? 😀 This is becoming a joke.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on June 05, 2019, 02:55:06 PM
We're not ranking the Sahaba.

You should not even dare.  For one, you are not a speck of dust on their shoes.  And two, Allah (swt) forgave even the ones who fled during Uhud and Hunain.  Qur'anic verses have been provided but knowing your insolence - inspired by Iblees' disobedience - you will continue to raise this point until you, or this universe, comes to an end.

Quote
Those who fled from the battlefield to save their lives like cowards and those who stood firm and bravely fought not worrying about their lives, there is an absolute clear cut difference.

Allah (swt) forgave them.  Do you have any such assurances for your salvation?  I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years.  At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield.  Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years.

Quote
Not that being a coward and fleeing is a crime or fault. Just want to make that clear.

Okay!

Quote
Both parties are forgiven? 😀 What do you mean by BOTH PARTIES? What, those who flee and those who didn't are both forgiven?

Yes, the ones who fled were forgiven by Allah (swt).  Please refer to the Qur'anic verses I have provided.

Quote
What was the mistake of those who didn't flee? Why did they need forgiving? 😀 This is becoming a joke.

That was my bad!  I erred when I said, "both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise".  What I meant to say was that Allah (swt) forgave those who fled and both parties will be admitted to Paradise.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 06, 2019, 01:44:32 AM
You should not even dare.  For one, you are not a speck of dust on their shoes.  And two, Allah (swt) forgave even the ones who fled during Uhud and Hunain.  Qur'anic verses have been provided but knowing your insolence - inspired by Iblees' disobedience - you will continue to raise this point until you, or this universe, comes to an end.

Allah (swt) forgave them.  Do you have any such assurances for your salvation?  I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years.  At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield.  Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years.

Okay!

Yes, the ones who fled were forgiven by Allah (swt).  Please refer to the Qur'anic verses I have provided.

That was my bad!  I erred when I said, "both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise".  What I meant to say was that Allah (swt) forgave those who fled and both parties will be admitted to Paradise.

"You should not even dare"

Is that a threat, a warning or something else? 😊

"For one, you are not a speck of dust on their shoes"

I didn't spend any part of my life in shirk or kufr before becoming a Muslim. Don't get carried away, Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets. What are they compared to them. That's the whole blooming issue with your kind that you start treating them as saints or Gods. Try and understand what is meant and said rather than jumping the gun.

"And two, Allah (swt) forgave even the ones who fled during Uhud and Hunain"

That's fine. We don't have an issue with that. They did something and then were forgiven, how does that put them in the same league and division as those who didn't. You know the score. You just can't accept it. It doesn't matter what you think, it is what it is. You can't change reality no matter how hard you try. Let me break it down for you since you're shaking over this. Those who didn't flee are called BRAVE and STRONG. Those who did flee are called COWARD and WEAK. Simple as that. Just because they were forgiven doesn't put them in the brave list. That would be injustice and an insult to the brave and bravery.

"you will continue to raise this point until you, or this universe, comes to an end"

We will continue to raise it due to you being unjust because of your ignorance.

"That was my bad!  I erred when I said,"

Allah will slowly open your eyes and mind elsewhere as well inshallah.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on June 06, 2019, 01:55:00 PM
I didn't spend any part of my life in shirk or kufr before becoming a Muslim.

You like to make lofty statements about yourself but it is the same for me to say that I have never gotten into smoking, drinking and drugs.  That "holier than thou" statement might sit well with some but I have more admiration for those who have taken those poisons and quit than someone like myself who has never even tried - let alone be addicted to - them.

Quote
Don't get carried away, Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets.

However, as believers, we must not distinguish between them.

"Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam).' "

Quote
Try and understand what is meant and said rather than jumping the gun.

Or maybe you can start by reading the Qur'an.

Quote
That's fine. We don't have an issue with that.

You do!  You are pretending you have no issue with it because you have been compelled by Qur'anic verses.  Don't think that I don't know that you will confront another uninformed Sunni with the same claim (that certain Sahaba fled the battlefield) to score points against him or her.

Quote
They did something and then were forgiven, how does that put them in the same league and division as those who didn't.

My claim, backed by Qur'an, is very simple.  It has nothing to do with sports leagues and divisions.  Allah (swt) forgave certain Sahaba (ra) for a mistake for which you ridicule them.  I side with Allah's (swt) judgment; you can stand in contrast to Allah's (swt) Decree along with your scholars.

Quote
You know the score. You just can't accept it. It doesn't matter what you think, it is what it is.

Of course I remember the score (from our previous discussions). 

Imams (ra) = 0
Sahaba (ra) = still winning!  Their dynasty (since you like sports) was so successful that your 12th Imam, despite the fact that a 1000 years have passed, will not show face because of the embarrassing, completely one-sided defeats of his ancestors at the hands of Sahaba (ra).

Quote
Those who didn't flee are called BRAVE and STRONG. Those who did flee are called COWARD and WEAK.

Are you listening, Iceman's 12th Imam?

Quote
We will continue to raise it due to you being unjust because of your ignorance.

Therefore, Allah (swt), as per your judgment, is unjust because He (swt) forgave those who fled and afforded them almost the same good deeds and outcome as those with an unblemished record who fought alongside the Prophet (saw).
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 07, 2019, 06:14:00 PM
You like to make lofty statements about yourself but it is the same for me to say that I have never gotten into smoking, drinking and drugs.  That "holier than thou" statement might sit well with some but I have more admiration for those who have taken those poisons and quit than someone like myself who has never even tried - let alone be addicted to - them.

However, as believers, we must not distinguish between them.

"Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam).' "

Or maybe you can start by reading the Qur'an.

You do!  You are pretending you have no issue with it because you have been compelled by Qur'anic verses.  Don't think that I don't know that you will confront another uninformed Sunni with the same claim (that certain Sahaba fled the battlefield) to score points against him or her.

My claim, backed by Qur'an, is very simple.  It has nothing to do with sports leagues and divisions.  Allah (swt) forgave certain Sahaba (ra) for a mistake for which you ridicule them.  I side with Allah's (swt) judgment; you can stand in contrast to Allah's (swt) Decree along with your scholars.

Of course I remember the score (from our previous discussions). 

Imams (ra) = 0
Sahaba (ra) = still winning!  Their dynasty (since you like sports) was so successful that your 12th Imam, despite the fact that a 1000 years have passed, will not show face because of the embarrassing, completely one-sided defeats of his ancestors at the hands of Sahaba (ra).

Are you listening, Iceman's 12th Imam?

Therefore, Allah (swt), as per your judgment, is unjust because He (swt) forgave those who fled and afforded them almost the same good deeds and outcome as those with an unblemished record who fought alongside the Prophet (saw).

"You like to make lofty statements about yourself but it is the same for me to say that I have never gotten into smoking, drinking and drugs.  That "holier than thou" statement might sit well with some but I have more admiration for those who have taken those poisons and quit than someone like myself who has never even tried - let alone be addicted to - them."

So who's better and superior, those who have screwed up and then got themselves back on track. Or those who never went astray to begin with. Those who lived on the straight and narrow and remained that way. Go on, it's not too difficult. Give it a try. With an honest and open mind that is.

"but I have more admiration for those.."

It's not about you and me or what we think or how we feel and take things. It's about reality and facts. It's about principles. If you could only understand this by getting your head around it. This is exactly where the problem is.

"However, as believers, we must not distinguish between them"

I disagree with that  But for argumentative reasons I will agree with it. Then why the hell do you distinguish between them? In all and every matter you put the Shaykhain above others without any logical reason or explanation. This is where we are given the chance to jump in. 😊

""Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam).' "

That's right. Now if you start distinguishing between them, what then. That's what you do with the companions. Then we dive in to correct how you distinguish. Or to question you over how and why have you distinguished.

"Or maybe you can start by reading the Qur'an"

It's not about the Qur'an. It's about your double standards. It's about you being unjust, unfair and unreasonable. That's what we point out.

I don't need to score points. Or go against anyone. Where you are wrong, unreasonable, unfair, unjust, speak without logic and reason, or disregarding reality and facts, where you come in with double standards etc, I will be there to point out and correct you.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 07, 2019, 06:18:49 PM
"My claim, backed by Qur'an, is very simple.  It has nothing to do with sports leagues and divisions.  Allah (swt) forgave certain Sahaba (ra) for a mistake for which you ridicule them.  I side with Allah's (swt) judgment; you can stand in contrast to Allah's (swt) Decree along with your scholars"

Then with all due respect to each and every companion, how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't?  How can those who fled to save their lives when it came upon them be better and superior to those who were willing to sacrifice their lives so stood their ground.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on June 07, 2019, 10:05:04 PM
So who's better and superior, those who have screwed up and then got themselves back on track. Or those who never went astray to begin with. Those who lived on the straight and narrow and remained that way. Go on, it's not too difficult. Give it a try. With an honest and open mind that is.

You suffer from what I would label as "Severe Chronic Stupidity Disorder" or SCSD.  I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better.

You started by asking me "so who's better and superior" and in the next post, you said "how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't". 

You are attacking the answer to a question which you posed and answered, lol.  Strawman much?

Other than you, who said anything about someone being better and superior?

Quote
I disagree with that

ALHAMDULILAH!  You finally revealed your disbelief in the Qur'an.  Let me set the order of events straight.

1.  You said, "Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets."

2.  I responded by quoting Surah Al'e Imran verse 84: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

3.  You responded with "I disagree with that".

EXACTLY OUR CASE AGAINST YOU!  You even disagree with Allah (swt).

Quote
That's right. Now if you start distinguishing between them, what then. That's what you do with the companions.

This has nothing to do with Sahaba (ra).  I shattered your lie that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets" to prove your fallacious position that there is a hierarchy of who is who, who is superior and better, etc, even among the Prophets (asws).

We can always talk about the abhorrent lie that certain "infallible" individuals (ra) are above nearly all Prophets (asws) but that can wait.

Quote
It's not about the Qur'an. It's about your double standards. It's about you being unjust, unfair and unreasonable. That's what we point out.

It is about the Qur'an.  Had you read it, you would not have made the ridiculous false claim that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets".

Quote
I will be there to point out and correct you.

You are welcome for being corrected.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on June 07, 2019, 10:08:54 PM
....read the one above....

Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 08:24:48 AM
You suffer from what I would label as "Severe Chronic Stupidity Disorder" or SCSD.  I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better.

You started by asking me "so who's better and superior" and in the next post, you said "how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't". 

You are attacking the answer to a question which you posed and answered, lol.  Strawman much?

Other than you, who said anything about someone being better and superior?

ALHAMDULILAH!  You finally revealed your disbelief in the Qur'an.  Let me set the order of events straight.

1.  You said, "Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets."

2.  I responded by quoting Surah Al'e Imran verse 84: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

3.  You responded with "I disagree with that".

EXACTLY OUR CASE AGAINST YOU!  You even disagree with Allah (swt).

This has nothing to do with Sahaba (ra).  I shattered your lie that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets" to prove your fallacious position that there is a hierarchy of who is who, who is superior and better, etc, even among the Prophets (asws).

We can always talk about the abhorrent lie that certain "infallible" individuals (ra) are above nearly all Prophets (asws) but that can wait.

It is about the Qur'an.  Had you read it, you would not have made the ridiculous false claim that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets".

You are welcome for being corrected.

"You suffer from what I would label as "Severe Chronic Stupidity Disorder" or SCSD.  I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better"

For heavens sake open your mind and then use your sense. Look at the title of this blooming thread. It speaks. And go through the thread and notice certain posts. Stop behaving like an ignorant fool.

"You started by asking me "so who's better and superior" and in the next post, you said "how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't"

For the live of God I don't need to ask you. We all know who were better and superior. This discussion ain't something new that I've come across. The attempt to put the Shaykhain or Khulafaa e Salasa above the others, above the rest has been going on for a long time. We're just arguing the logic and reason behind it. Who got the leadership first is better and superior than who got into authority second and third.

This is the Ahle Sunnah perspective that tarteeb e fazeelat (sequence of superiority) is based on tarteeb e Caliphate (sequence of leadership). We strongly disagree with this. We believe being better and superiority is based on merits regarding character, performance and achievement based on all sectors, division, fields and departments.

"We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

Ok, then why is Muhammad s.a.w, who is the last better and above the rest. Just to knock your head to jog your memory, "Afzalul or Ashraful Ambia Wal Mursaleen" is this not said about Muhammad s.a.w? Is this not a clear DISTINCTION?

"EXACTLY OUR CASE AGAINST YOU!  You even disagree with Allah (swt)"

I don't. You're just twisting things around to your desire. You're struggling with the argument and are too stubborn to admit and accept. So you're trying to score points just to save yourself.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 08:30:53 AM
Al Bakarah, 2:253

"Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will."
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 09:04:19 AM
Al-An'am (The Cattle) - 6:165 

"He it is who hath placed you as viceroys of the earth and hath exalted some of you in rank above others, that He may try you by (the test of) that which He hath given you. Lo! Thy Lord is swift in prosecution, and lo! He is Forgiving, Merciful"
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 11:23:13 AM
Proclamations of the Classical Scholars and Jurists

1. Imam al-Aazam Abu Hanifa gave one of the pithiest definitions of Sunnism in Islam:

"The doctrine of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama'a consists in preferring the Two Shaykhs (tafdil al-shaykhayn) [i.e. Abu Bakr and 'Umar over the rest], loving the Two Sons-in-law (hubb al-khatanayn) [i.e. 'Ali and 'Uthman], and [deeming lawful the] wiping on leather socks [in ablution] (al-mas-h 'alal-khuffayn) [i.e. all three contrary to Shi'is]." [Khulasat al-Fatawa, Vol. 2, Page 381]

Narrated by Ibn 'Abd al-Barr in al-Intiqa' bi-Manaqib al-A'immat al-Thalathati al-Fuqaha' through several different chains. The same is also related from Sufyan al-Thawri by al-La'laka'i in his I'tiqad Ahl al-Sunna, Vol. 1, Page 152.

2. Imam al-Aazam Abu Hanifah in Fiqh Al-Akbar:

The most superior and the best of all men after prophets – blessings and peace upon them – is Abu Bakr as-Siddiq. And then, Umar ibn al-Khattab al-Faruq. And then Uthman ibn Affan Dhu'n Nurayn. And then ali ibn Abu talib al-Murtada. May Allah be well pleased with them all; they were worshippers and steadfast on Truth and sided with Truth. We love all of them. [Fiqh Al-Akbar]

3. Imam al-Nawawi said in his Fatawa:

"Know that each of Abu Bakr and 'Umar is better than 'Ali according to the Consensus (ijma') of Ahl al-Sunna. The proofs for this in well-known sound hadiths are too famous and countless to be listed." [Fatawa Imam Nawawi, Page 264]

4. Imam al-Haytami said in his Fatawa Hadithiyya:

"The preferability of Abu Bakr over the other three [of the first four Caliphs] and that of 'Umar over the ther two is agreed upon by Consensus (mujma' 'alayh) of Ahl al-Sunna and there is no disagreement among them concerning this." [Fatawa Hadithiyya, Page 155]

5. Ali al-Qari in MinaH ar-Rawd al-Az'har, SharH Fiqh al-Akbar:

The best of humans after prophets [peace and blessings upon them] is Abu Bakr Radi Allahu Ta'ala Anhu... The superiority of Abu Bakr and Umar is an unanimous agreement in the Ahl as-Sunnah. [Sharh Fiqh al-Akbar]

6. Mulla 'Ali al-Qari said in Sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar:

"It is patent that to prefer 'Ali to the Two Shaykhs contravenes the doctrine of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama'a according to what the totality of the Salaf follow." [Sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, Page 140]

So tell me about distinction, categorising,
superiority putting one or some above the other/s.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
I missed this one. Allow me to give it to you on the basis of what you said here.

"I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years"

This is exactly what I mean. Based on your statement here why are you so hesitant to accept and mention those cowards who fled to save their lives abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded.

"At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield"

It would have been better if they didn’t by coming up with some excuse. That would have saved them from embarrassment.


"Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years"

And don't hesitate and hold back in mentioning your cowards. Our coward ran from those in authority. Your cowards abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded and all alone. Something that our coward didn't do. So in your own words mention your cowards just like you are quick in mentioning our coward.😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Abu Rumaysah on June 08, 2019, 01:14:37 PM
The superiority of first two caliphs is proven my mutawatir hadith from hz Ali himself.
http://gift2shias.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/tafdil.doc

Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 08, 2019, 02:08:01 PM
The superiority of first two caliphs is proven my mutawatir hadith from hz Ali himself.
http://gift2shias.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/tafdil.doc

So you categorise the Sahaba. You distinguish between them. OK,  how and it what way are the first two superior.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 09:23:24 AM
I missed this one. Allow me to give it to you on the basis of what you said here.

"I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years"

This is exactly what I mean. Based on your statement here why are you so hesitant to accept and mention those cowards who fled to save their lives abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded.

"At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield"

It would have been better if they didn’t by coming up with some excuse. That would have saved them from embarrassment.


"Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years"

And don't hesitate and hold back in mentioning your cowards. Our coward ran from those in authority. Your cowards abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded and all alone. Something that our coward didn't do. So in your own words mention your cowards just like you are quick in mentioning our coward.😊

Shias will disown this guy for this admission.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 09:55:39 AM
Shias will disown this guy for this admission.

We don't DISOWN anyone. It's about facts here. You labelled him a COWARD but those who RAN/FLED from the battlefield, who clearly come in the COWARD CATEGORY without a shadow of a doubt,
you are soooo HESITANT and AFRAID to call them COWARDS. Where as you are quick to pick on this guy always and all the time. 😊😊😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 11:15:46 AM
We don't DISOWN anyone. It's about facts here. You labelled him a COWARD but those who RAN/FLED from the battlefield, who clearly come in the COWARD CATEGORY without a shadow of a doubt,
you are soooo HESITANT and AFRAID to call them COWARDS. Where as you are quick to pick on this guy always and all the time. 😊😊😊
Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward. But what is more funny is that you don’t have any verse which pardons your guy, while the ones who ran away in battle we’re forgiven by Allah.

P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 11:42:19 AM
Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward. But what is more funny is that you don’t have any verse which pardons your guy, while the ones who ran away in battle we’re forgiven by Allah.

P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable.

"Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward"

The irony is that you guys desperately want to get hold of anything you can find that goes against us. If you can't find anything then you take things out of context or proportion. I didn't admit anything. For argumentative reasons you claim Al Mahdi to be a coward. Why? Because you claim he's in hiding or went into hiding because of fear.

Now those who ran out of fear absolutely and clearly come in the category of cowards but you're too hesitant and shy to call cowards coward. That's my point and you know what my point is. But you desperately want to make a show of this. I won't let you. 😊

You want to call Al Mahdi a coward then have the nerve and guts to call cowards coward. Allah forgave them. Yes, he probably did. But he forgave them for fleeing which was seen and known as a crime in those circumstances. But that doesn't mean they're not cowards anymore.

They still remain in that category everytime that particular matter is discussed. Just as when a matter is discussed then a particular persons or people's bravery is mentioned because of that matter.  😊

"P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

Then what seems to be the problem. Why do you bring in the verse where Allah forgives them by pardon. Then one shouldn't jump to the verse.

"is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

When we say the same thing about certain references you put forward and don't see them as authentic and reliable then why isn't that accepted. What you see fit and reasonable for you, you should see fit and reasonable for us. 😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 12:19:14 PM
"Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward"

The irony is that you guys desperately want to get hold of anything you can find that goes against us. If you can't find anything then you take things out of context or proportion. I didn't admit anything. For argumentative reasons you claim Al Mahdi to be a coward. Why? Because you claim he's in hiding or went into hiding because of fear.

Now those who ran out of fear absolutely and clearly come in the category of cowards but you're too hesitant and shy to call cowards coward. That's my point and you know what my point is. But you desperately want to make a show of this. I won't let you. 😊

You want to call Al Mahdi a coward then have the nerve and guts to call cowards coward. Allah forgave them. Yes, he probably did. But he forgave them for fleeing which was seen and known as a crime in those circumstances. But that doesn't mean they're not cowards anymore.

They still remain in that category everytime that particular matter is discussed. Just as when a matter is discussed then a particular persons or people's bravery is mentioned because of that matter.  😊

"P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

Then what seems to be the problem. Why do you bring in the verse where Allah forgives them by pardon. Then one shouldn't jump to the verse.

"is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

When we say the same thing about certain references you put forward and don't see them as authentic and reliable then why isn't that accepted. What you see fit and reasonable for you, you should see fit and reasonable for us. 😊

The topic of thread is first two caliphs , so it quite unlikely that the issue of your Mahdi going into occultation our of fear would come up without any reason, you must have started attacking companions of Prophet(saws), due to which you were shown the mirror, just to expose your double Standards. But I’m amazed to see you agree, for arguments sake that your guy was a coward. LOL.

And you asking me to accuse someone of a sin which they committed and were forgiven, and they proved themselves in later events in their life which proves they weren’t coward,  but your guy still remains in occultation due to fear and there is no proof that he was pardoned. But you still have the audacity to attack those who were forgiven by Allah in Quran but not your guy.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 12:43:19 PM
The topic of thread is first two caliphs , so it quite unlikely that the issue of your Mahdi going into occultation our of fear would come up without any reason, you must have started attacking companions of Prophet(saws), due to which you were shown the mirror, just to expose your double Standards. But I’m amazed to see you agree, for arguments sake that your guy was a coward. LOL.

And you asking me to accuse someone of a sin which they committed and were forgiven, and they proved themselves in later events in their life which proves they weren’t coward,  but your guy still remains in occultation due to fear and there is no proof that he was pardoned. But you still have the audacity to attack those who were forgiven by Allah in Quran but not your guy.

You are one bias as well as prejudice individual. It doesn't matter what the title of the thread is and what ever is being discussed, Imamah and Al Mahdi is always mocked. You and I both know that so lets not waste our time going down that road. We are Shia, that means your kind get a free pass. In other words you can say what you want about us and behave the way you want with us. Lets not play dumb and blind over this.

"you must have started attacking companions of Prophet(saws)"

Don't go looking for excuses based on
assumptions.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 12:57:43 PM
You are one bias as well as prejudice individual. It doesn't matter what the title of the thread is and what ever is being discussed, Imamah and Al Mahdi is always mocked. You and I both know that so lets not waste our time going down that road. We are Shia, that means your kind get a free pass. In other words you can say what you want about us and behave the way you want with us. Lets not play dumb and blind over this.

"you must have started attacking companions of Prophet(saws)"

Don't go looking for excuses based on
assumptions.

So you mean to say you weren’t the first to start mocking Sahaba for running from the battle? And the example of your guy wasn’t brought up in a reactionary way ?
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 02:25:10 PM
So you mean to say you weren’t the first to start mocking Sahaba for running from the battle? And the example of your guy wasn’t brought up in a reactionary way ?

You know what I mean. And you also know how we're looked at and treated here. You also know how our faith and belief is mocked about. If that changed, which I think it will never, a lot of things would, not could but would change dramatically. Speaking in general where there is push push and constant push there will be some sort of shove.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 02:52:11 PM
So you mean to say you weren’t the first to start mocking Sahaba for running from the battle? And the example of your guy wasn’t brought up in a reactionary way ?

As far as I'm concerned I don't mock anyone or any faith or belief or sect or community. Especially not any companion or wife of the Prophet s.a.w. Regardless of how people see and treat me.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 03:05:46 PM
As far as I'm concerned I don't mock anyone or any faith or belief or sect or community. Especially not any companion or wife of the Prophet s.a.w. Regardless of how people see and treat me.

What I can see is that, A Shia guy started mocking Sahaba for fleeing from battles. He was refuted by Sunnis and the Sunni guy mocked your guy, it was reactionary. But you jumped in trying to justify the action of Shia guy, hence you needed to be taught a lesson.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 04:26:51 PM
What I can see is that, A Shia guy started mocking Sahaba for fleeing from battles. He was refuted by Sunnis and the Sunni guy mocked your guy, it was reactionary. But you jumped in trying to justify the action of Shia guy, hence you needed to be taught a lesson.

I will show you what you haven't seen or probably you have and know but are just going to turn a blind I to it. By the way I ain't surprised what you've said. I know you're biased. 😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 09, 2019, 06:40:23 PM
I will show you what you haven't seen or probably you have and know but are just going to turn a blind I to it. By the way I ain't surprised what you've said. I know you're biased. 😊
talk With proof. No need of empty talk . Go ahead
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 09, 2019, 11:17:11 PM
talk With proof. No need of empty talk . Go ahead

Thread RE KARBALA, WHO KILLED HUSSAIN RA. Take a look at post #7 in that thread. Here's what was said by Mythbuster.


Your divine Imamate crap is fantasy you still cannot provide CLEAR proofs😂😂😂
12 divine beings is a fantasy that only 2 ruled the rest were cowering in taqyyia mode😂😂😂😂
Your sect is a fantasy thought up by ibn saba 😂😂😂😂😂

Reality of saqifa beats the fantasy of divine imamates😂👍😂😂

Eshiite fantasy 😂😂😂

See what I mean. This is one out of thousands of examples where the thread has got absolutely nothing to do with Imamah but Imamah is mocked all the time, everytime and everywhere. Now if you have a bit of decency and shame this one example should be more than enough for you. But I know you're a completely bias individual.

Go on that thread and tell me how I triggered this. Go on, lets see what excuse you come up with against me. That was post #7 and there are only 6 posts above this. Tell me if I triggered this and why. Otherwise an apology on behalf of the joker would be nice if you have any decency that is. And like I said I can give you many examples where we and our faith is constantly mocked. And those who mock believe in and follow the Sahabah? Really 😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Mythbuster1 on June 10, 2019, 12:11:30 AM
Thread RE KARBALA, WHO KILLED HUSSAIN RA. Take a look at post #7 in that thread. Here's what was said by Mythbuster.


Your divine Imamate crap is fantasy you still cannot provide CLEAR proofs😂😂😂
12 divine beings is a fantasy that only 2 ruled the rest were cowering in taqyyia mode😂😂😂😂
Your sect is a fantasy thought up by ibn saba 😂😂😂😂😂

Reality of saqifa beats the fantasy of divine imamates😂👍😂😂

Eshiite fantasy 😂😂😂

See what I mean. This is one out of thousands of examples where the thread has got absolutely nothing to do with Imamah but Imamah is mocked all the time, everytime and everywhere. Now if you have a bit of decency and shame this one example should be more than enough for you. But I know you're a completely bias individual.

Go on that thread and tell me how I triggered this. Go on, lets see what excuse you come up with against me. That was post #7 and there are only 6 posts above this. Tell me if I triggered this and why. Otherwise an apology on behalf of the joker would be nice if you have any decency that is. And like I said I can give you many examples where we and our faith is constantly mocked. And those who mock believe in and follow the Sahabah? Really 😊

Lol why are you bringing me into this argument for?
I never answered you on this thread, you got owned and now you are bringing old posts up to defend yourself how PATHETIC!!

To be honest you get owned in every thread.

PATHETIC😂👍
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on June 10, 2019, 01:50:29 AM
Thread RE KARBALA, WHO KILLED HUSSAIN RA. Take a look at post #7 in that thread. Here's what was said by Mythbuster.


Your divine Imamate crap is fantasy you still cannot provide CLEAR proofs😂😂😂
12 divine beings is a fantasy that only 2 ruled the rest were cowering in taqyyia mode😂😂😂😂
Your sect is a fantasy thought up by ibn saba 😂😂😂😂😂

Reality of saqifa beats the fantasy of divine imamates😂👍😂😂

Eshiite fantasy 😂😂😂

See what I mean. This is one out of thousands of examples where the thread has got absolutely nothing to do with Imamah but Imamah is mocked all the time, everytime and everywhere. Now if you have a bit of decency and shame this one example should be more than enough for you. But I know you're a completely bias individual.

Go on that thread and tell me how I triggered this. Go on, lets see what excuse you come up with against me. That was post #7 and there are only 6 posts above this. Tell me if I triggered this and why. Otherwise an apology on behalf of the joker would be nice if you have any decency that is. And like I said I can give you many examples where we and our faith is constantly mocked. And those who mock believe in and follow the Sahabah? Really 😊
I was discussing you about this thread, but you conveniently jumped some other thread, that shows what kind of dishonest person you are. But unfortunately you are being dishonest to your ownself by arrogantly rejecting the truth.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on June 10, 2019, 02:19:01 PM
For heavens sake open your mind and then use your sense. Look at the title of this blooming thread. It speaks. And go through the thread and notice certain posts. Stop behaving like an ignorant fool.

The ignorant fool here, as usual, is you.  I said "I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better" which still stands despite the topic of the thread.  In fact, I should apologize because nearly all my posts have been irrelevant to the topic but to expose your foolishness even further.

Quote
For the live of God I don't need to ask you. We all know who were better and superior. This discussion ain't something new that I've come across.

We rank Sahaba (ra) based on their qualities.  Hunain and Uhud have no bearing on any one of them because Allah (swt) has forgiven even the ones who fled.  Not to mention, you cannot prove that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) fled the battlefield; you can only speculate.

Quote
The attempt to put the Shaykhain or Khulafaa e Salasa above the others, above the rest has been going on for a long time. We're just arguing the logic and reason behind it. Who got the leadership first is better and superior than who got into authority second and third.

What I am disputing is that when the two battles ended, those who fought valiantly and those who momentarily fled ended up with passing grade, in the sight of Allah (swt).  Minions of Shaytan, like yourself, are still having a hard time understanding and accepting Allah's (swt) Decree.

Quote
We believe being better and superiority is based on merits regarding character, performance and achievement based on all sectors, division, fields and departments.

No one is contesting this point.

Quote
Ok, then why is Muhammad s.a.w, who is the last better and above the rest.

The Holy Prophet (saw) is better than the Prophets (asws) of the old but Muslims are to accept every single one of them without getting into the technicalities of the distinctions between them.

Now would be a good time for you to address why you accept certain individuals to be above these Prophets (asws) of the old!

Quote
I don't. You're just twisting things around to your desire. You're struggling with the argument and are too stubborn to admit and accept. So you're trying to score points just to save yourself.

Pathetic comeback!  You clearly stated that you "disagree with that" when presented with Qur'anic proof.  Your blunders are only piling up.  Wait and watch!

Quote
This is exactly what I mean. Based on your statement here why are you so hesitant to accept and mention those cowards who fled to save their lives abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded.

Coward is the term thrown around by Shias so they will be judged by the standards they set themselves.  If running away from battlefield or responsibilities makes one a coward (according to the Shia) then the 12th Imam is the biggest coward mankind has ever known, if he exists!

Those who fled during Hunain and/or Uhud had their slates cleaned by Allah (swt).  As for your 12th Imam, forgiveness for his cowardice - along with his existence - has still not been established.

Quote
It would have been better if they didn’t by coming up with some excuse. That would have saved them from embarrassment.

They, as I said, were winners.  Even when erring in judgment, Allah (swt) would forgive them and wipe their slates clean.  Speak for your "infallibles" (ra); always subdued, humiliated, overpowered, outmatched, cornered and defeated (if we compare their lives to what your theology expected from them).

Quote
Our coward ran from those in authority. Your cowards abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded and all alone. Something that our coward didn't do.

BOOM!  *drops the mic*
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 10, 2019, 05:08:25 PM
I was discussing you about this thread, but you conveniently jumped some other thread, that shows what kind of dishonest person you are. But unfortunately you are being dishonest to your ownself by arrogantly rejecting the truth.

I'm not surprised at all. Because I know you are one bias individual. But I had to take the opportunity to show this. That's why I took you on. Allow me to show you the mirror in case you've forgotten yourself.

This is what you said on this thread in post #63 of yours.

"What I can see is that, A Shia guy started mocking Sahaba for fleeing from battles. He was refuted by Sunnis and the Sunni guy mocked your guy, it was reactionary. But you jumped in trying to justify the action of Shia guy, hence you needed to be taught a lesson"

Just shown you by giving one example of who mocks who. There are many more examples but I know you are one bias individual who likes to back and support his own kind and fellows regardless. Not that I give a damn or care. Just pointing it out since you mentioned it.

This is what you said in post #65 on this thread.

"talk With proof. No need of empty talk . Go ahead"

And I just SLAMMED you with the TRUTH. 😊 Not that you're not already aware about it. I know how such sites work and think about us. It would be foolish for me to think or expect different or otherwise.
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 10, 2019, 05:22:16 PM
The ignorant fool here, as usual, is you.  I said "I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better" which still stands despite the topic of the thread.  In fact, I should apologize because nearly all my posts have been irrelevant to the topic but to expose your foolishness even further.

We rank Sahaba (ra) based on their qualities.  Hunain and Uhud have no bearing on any one of them because Allah (swt) has forgiven even the ones who fled.  Not to mention, you cannot prove that Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) fled the battlefield; you can only speculate.

What I am disputing is that when the two battles ended, those who fought valiantly and those who momentarily fled ended up with passing grade, in the sight of Allah (swt).  Minions of Shaytan, like yourself, are still having a hard time understanding and accepting Allah's (swt) Decree.

No one is contesting this point.

The Holy Prophet (saw) is better than the Prophets (asws) of the old but Muslims are to accept every single one of them without getting into the technicalities of the distinctions between them.

Now would be a good time for you to address why you accept certain individuals to be above these Prophets (asws) of the old!

Pathetic comeback!  You clearly stated that you "disagree with that" when presented with Qur'anic proof.  Your blunders are only piling up.  Wait and watch!

Coward is the term thrown around by Shias so they will be judged by the standards they set themselves.  If running away from battlefield or responsibilities makes one a coward (according to the Shia) then the 12th Imam is the biggest coward mankind has ever known, if he exists!

Those who fled during Hunain and/or Uhud had their slates cleaned by Allah (swt).  As for your 12th Imam, forgiveness for his cowardice - along with his existence - has still not been established.

They, as I said, were winners.  Even when erring in judgment, Allah (swt) would forgive them and wipe their slates clean.  Speak for your "infallibles" (ra); always subdued, humiliated, overpowered, outmatched, cornered and defeated (if we compare their lives to what your theology expected from them).

BOOM!  *drops the mic*

Here comes the arrogant, ignorant and full of aggression time waster again. Who always thinks he's in the ring and sees everything has point scoring. 😊 Busy at the moment. Deal with your usual crap and nonsense later. 😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on June 11, 2019, 01:47:42 PM
Our coward ran from those in authority. Your cowards abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded and all alone. Something that our coward didn't do.

Like my signature?
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 11, 2019, 02:52:42 PM
Like my signature?

Like? Lovin it mate. Lovin it. And here's my signature.

People constantly bang on about this but never bother to mention other cowards who also ran. Ran from who? Mushriks and kafirs. Ran from where? The battle field. Why? To save their lives. A crucial fact, leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind. Abandoning Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. 😊

How do you feel about my signature 😀

We can do this as long as you like and want to. 😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: muslim720 on June 11, 2019, 03:15:14 PM
Like? Lovin it mate. Lovin it.

Finally we agree on something!  See how easy that was?  You admitted his cowardice and now we are on the same page.

Quote
People constantly bang on about this but never bother to mention other cowards who also ran. Ran from who? Mushriks and kafirs. Ran from where? The battle field. Why? To save their lives. A crucial fact, leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind. Abandoning Allah and his Messenger s.a.w. 😊

Cool story bro!  Just when I thought you were coming out of your ignorance, you had to dive right back into it.

Quote
How do you feel about my signature 😀

One pathetic signature!  The one I have is straight to the point, from the horse's mouth ;)

Quote
We can do this as long as you like and want to. 😊

We know how well you can dance around points.  Nonetheless, I leave you with your own words - "Our coward ran from those in authority".  Gold!
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on June 16, 2019, 04:56:47 PM
All this mumbling from certain shia on here.

You cannot change history. Any neutral person who studies history will stand in awe regarding the leadership of the first two caliphs may Allah be pleased with them. How fitting it is that they are buried next to their beloved companion who loved them so much i.e the Prophet peace be upon him.
A relationship that beats the shia madhab all hands down.

Beautiful. Allah SWT placed them together in such a beautiful position from their time together as loving brotherly companions in this life & the afterlife.

What a splendid relationship & what a splendid sight.

No shia can even touch the dust on them.

Allahu akbar!!!!
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 16, 2019, 05:29:18 PM
Finally we agree on something!  See how easy that was?  You admitted his cowardice and now we are on the same page.

Cool story bro!  Just when I thought you were coming out of your ignorance, you had to dive right back into it.

One pathetic signature!  The one I have is straight to the point, from the horse's mouth ;)

We know how well you can dance around points.  Nonetheless, I leave you with your own words - "Our coward ran from those in authority".  Gold!

"Finally we agree on something!  See how easy that was?  You admitted his cowardice and now we are on the same page"

Not yet. You claim the Shia Mahdi is a coward because he ran/fled from persecution to save his life. And I asked you what about those who fled from the battlefield, ran from Mushriks/Kafirs (the enemies of Allah and His Prophet s.a.w), to save their lives, leaving the Prophet s.a.w behind abandoned and stranded. 😊 What would you call that and them. 😊

This is according to your theology. Cat got your tongue 😊 He ran/fled and he's a coward which you have no hesitation in mentioning and constantly. What about the others who exactly fit the cowardice definition and who they ran from and who they abandoned is a massive thing. 😊 Come on lad, rock on 😊

"Our coward ran from those in authority".  Gold!"

'Our coward', according to you boy. That's how you think and put it. And what about the others. According to you was he the only coward. 😊 He didn't run from the enemies of Allah and his Prophet s.a.w leaving the Prophet s.a.w stranded 😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 16, 2019, 05:45:50 PM
"Cool story bro!  Just when I thought you were coming out of your ignorance, you had to dive right back into it"

I wasn't in ignorance to begin with. Your are. You slag off important personalities, and I don't. It doesn't matter if those personalities are important to me or others. You need to be taught manners on how to take to and about others. And that's what I'm exactly doing and is my point.😊
Title: Re: The superiority of the first two caliphs
Post by: iceman on June 16, 2019, 05:54:04 PM
All this mumbling from certain shia on here.

You cannot change history. Any neutral person who studies history will stand in awe regarding the leadership of the first two caliphs may Allah be pleased with them. How fitting it is that they are buried next to their beloved companion who loved them so much i.e the Prophet peace be upon him.
A relationship that beats the shia madhab all hands down.

Beautiful. Allah SWT placed them together in such a beautiful position from their time together as loving brotherly companions in this life & the afterlife.

What a splendid relationship & what a splendid sight.

No shia can even touch the dust on them.

Allahu akbar!!!!

You're still blind I guess. Putting yourself next to someone doesn't give you privilege or gets you any merits. The important personality (Muhammad s.a.w) asking you to be put next to him does. How important were they that they objected and prevented the Prophet s.a.w from writing his will and let themselves and the Ummah deviate, go astray. Prophet's s.a.w  words not mine.

The Prophet s.a.w wanted to write something so the companions do not deviate, go astray after him. This is how important that will was. And they objected, and prevented by causing a huge fuss then turned it into a row. Don't be so blind. They were human just like Malik bin Nuwayrah and the others. No one was a Saint. Get over it. 😊