The superiority of the first two caliphs

[muslim720]

We're not ranking the Sahaba.

You should not even dare.  For one, you are not a speck of dust on their shoes.  And two, Allah (swt) forgave even the ones who fled during Uhud and Hunain.  Qur'anic verses have been provided but knowing your insolence - inspired by Iblees' disobedience - you will continue to raise this point until you, or this universe, comes to an end.

Those who fled from the battlefield to save their lives like cowards and those who stood firm and bravely fought not worrying about their lives, there is an absolute clear cut difference.

Allah (swt) forgave them.  Do you have any such assurances for your salvation?  I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years.  At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield.  Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years.

Not that being a coward and fleeing is a crime or fault. Just want to make that clear.

Okay!

Both parties are forgiven? 😀 What do you mean by BOTH PARTIES? What, those who flee and those who didn't are both forgiven?

Yes, the ones who fled were forgiven by Allah (swt).  Please refer to the Qur'anic verses I have provided.

What was the mistake of those who didn't flee? Why did they need forgiving? 😀 This is becoming a joke.

That was my bad!  I erred when I said, "both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise".  What I meant to say was that Allah (swt) forgave those who fled and both parties will be admitted to Paradise.

[iceman]

You should not even dare.  For one, you are not a speck of dust on their shoes.  And two, Allah (swt) forgave even the ones who fled during Uhud and Hunain.  Qur'anic verses have been provided but knowing your insolence - inspired by Iblees' disobedience - you will continue to raise this point until you, or this universe, comes to an end.

Allah (swt) forgave them.  Do you have any such assurances for your salvation?  I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years.  At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield.  Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years.

Okay!

Yes, the ones who fled were forgiven by Allah (swt).  Please refer to the Qur'anic verses I have provided.

That was my bad!  I erred when I said, "both parties are forgiven and Allah (swt) will admit them to Paradise".  What I meant to say was that Allah (swt) forgave those who fled and both parties will be admitted to Paradise.

"You should not even dare"

Is that a threat, a warning or something else? 😊

"For one, you are not a speck of dust on their shoes"

I didn't spend any part of my life in shirk or kufr before becoming a Muslim. Don't get carried away, Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets. What are they compared to them. That's the whole blooming issue with your kind that you start treating them as saints or Gods. Try and understand what is meant and said rather than jumping the gun.

"And two, Allah (swt) forgave even the ones who fled during Uhud and Hunain"

That's fine. We don't have an issue with that. They did something and then were forgiven, how does that put them in the same league and division as those who didn't. You know the score. You just can't accept it. It doesn't matter what you think, it is what it is. You can't change reality no matter how hard you try. Let me break it down for you since you're shaking over this. Those who didn't flee are called BRAVE and STRONG. Those who did flee are called COWARD and WEAK. Simple as that. Just because they were forgiven doesn't put them in the brave list. That would be injustice and an insult to the brave and bravery.

"you will continue to raise this point until you, or this universe, comes to an end"

We will continue to raise it due to you being unjust because of your ignorance.

"That was my bad!  I erred when I said,"

Allah will slowly open your eyes and mind elsewhere as well inshallah.

[muslim720]

I didn't spend any part of my life in shirk or kufr before becoming a Muslim.

You like to make lofty statements about yourself but it is the same for me to say that I have never gotten into smoking, drinking and drugs.  That "holier than thou" statement might sit well with some but I have more admiration for those who have taken those poisons and quit than someone like myself who has never even tried - let alone be addicted to - them.

Don't get carried away, Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets.

However, as believers, we must not distinguish between them.

"Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam).' "

Try and understand what is meant and said rather than jumping the gun.

Or maybe you can start by reading the Qur'an.

That's fine. We don't have an issue with that.

You do!  You are pretending you have no issue with it because you have been compelled by Qur'anic verses.  Don't think that I don't know that you will confront another uninformed Sunni with the same claim (that certain Sahaba fled the battlefield) to score points against him or her.

They did something and then were forgiven, how does that put them in the same league and division as those who didn't.

My claim, backed by Qur'an, is very simple.  It has nothing to do with sports leagues and divisions.  Allah (swt) forgave certain Sahaba (ra) for a mistake for which you ridicule them.  I side with Allah's (swt) judgment; you can stand in contrast to Allah's (swt) Decree along with your scholars.

You know the score. You just can't accept it. It doesn't matter what you think, it is what it is.

Of course I remember the score (from our previous discussions). 

Imams (ra) = 0
Sahaba (ra) = still winning!  Their dynasty (since you like sports) was so successful that your 12th Imam, despite the fact that a 1000 years have passed, will not show face because of the embarrassing, completely one-sided defeats of his ancestors at the hands of Sahaba (ra).

Those who didn't flee are called BRAVE and STRONG. Those who did flee are called COWARD and WEAK.

Are you listening, Iceman's 12th Imam?

We will continue to raise it due to you being unjust because of your ignorance.

Therefore, Allah (swt), as per your judgment, is unjust because He (swt) forgave those who fled and afforded them almost the same good deeds and outcome as those with an unblemished record who fought alongside the Prophet (saw).

[iceman]

You like to make lofty statements about yourself but it is the same for me to say that I have never gotten into smoking, drinking and drugs.  That "holier than thou" statement might sit well with some but I have more admiration for those who have taken those poisons and quit than someone like myself who has never even tried - let alone be addicted to - them.

However, as believers, we must not distinguish between them.

"Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam).' "

Or maybe you can start by reading the Qur'an.

You do!  You are pretending you have no issue with it because you have been compelled by Qur'anic verses.  Don't think that I don't know that you will confront another uninformed Sunni with the same claim (that certain Sahaba fled the battlefield) to score points against him or her.

My claim, backed by Qur'an, is very simple.  It has nothing to do with sports leagues and divisions.  Allah (swt) forgave certain Sahaba (ra) for a mistake for which you ridicule them.  I side with Allah's (swt) judgment; you can stand in contrast to Allah's (swt) Decree along with your scholars.

Of course I remember the score (from our previous discussions). 

Imams (ra) = 0
Sahaba (ra) = still winning!  Their dynasty (since you like sports) was so successful that your 12th Imam, despite the fact that a 1000 years have passed, will not show face because of the embarrassing, completely one-sided defeats of his ancestors at the hands of Sahaba (ra).

Are you listening, Iceman's 12th Imam?

Therefore, Allah (swt), as per your judgment, is unjust because He (swt) forgave those who fled and afforded them almost the same good deeds and outcome as those with an unblemished record who fought alongside the Prophet (saw).

"You like to make lofty statements about yourself but it is the same for me to say that I have never gotten into smoking, drinking and drugs.  That "holier than thou" statement might sit well with some but I have more admiration for those who have taken those poisons and quit than someone like myself who has never even tried - let alone be addicted to - them."

So who's better and superior, those who have screwed up and then got themselves back on track. Or those who never went astray to begin with. Those who lived on the straight and narrow and remained that way. Go on, it's not too difficult. Give it a try. With an honest and open mind that is.

"but I have more admiration for those.."

It's not about you and me or what we think or how we feel and take things. It's about reality and facts. It's about principles. If you could only understand this by getting your head around it. This is exactly where the problem is.

"However, as believers, we must not distinguish between them"

I disagree with that  But for argumentative reasons I will agree with it. Then why the hell do you distinguish between them? In all and every matter you put the Shaykhain above others without any logical reason or explanation. This is where we are given the chance to jump in. 😊

""Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam).' "

That's right. Now if you start distinguishing between them, what then. That's what you do with the companions. Then we dive in to correct how you distinguish. Or to question you over how and why have you distinguished.

"Or maybe you can start by reading the Qur'an"

It's not about the Qur'an. It's about your double standards. It's about you being unjust, unfair and unreasonable. That's what we point out.

I don't need to score points. Or go against anyone. Where you are wrong, unreasonable, unfair, unjust, speak without logic and reason, or disregarding reality and facts, where you come in with double standards etc, I will be there to point out and correct you.

[iceman]

"My claim, backed by Qur'an, is very simple.  It has nothing to do with sports leagues and divisions.  Allah (swt) forgave certain Sahaba (ra) for a mistake for which you ridicule them.  I side with Allah's (swt) judgment; you can stand in contrast to Allah's (swt) Decree along with your scholars"

Then with all due respect to each and every companion, how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't?  How can those who fled to save their lives when it came upon them be better and superior to those who were willing to sacrifice their lives so stood their ground.

[muslim720]

So who's better and superior, those who have screwed up and then got themselves back on track. Or those who never went astray to begin with. Those who lived on the straight and narrow and remained that way. Go on, it's not too difficult. Give it a try. With an honest and open mind that is.

You suffer from what I would label as "Severe Chronic Stupidity Disorder" or SCSD.  I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better.

You started by asking me "so who's better and superior" and in the next post, you said "how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't". 

You are attacking the answer to a question which you posed and answered, lol.  Strawman much?

Other than you, who said anything about someone being better and superior?

I disagree with that

ALHAMDULILAH!  You finally revealed your disbelief in the Qur'an.  Let me set the order of events straight.

1.  You said, "Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets."

2.  I responded by quoting Surah Al'e Imran verse 84: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

3.  You responded with "I disagree with that".

EXACTLY OUR CASE AGAINST YOU!  You even disagree with Allah (swt).

That's right. Now if you start distinguishing between them, what then. That's what you do with the companions.

This has nothing to do with Sahaba (ra).  I shattered your lie that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets" to prove your fallacious position that there is a hierarchy of who is who, who is superior and better, etc, even among the Prophets (asws).

We can always talk about the abhorrent lie that certain "infallible" individuals (ra) are above nearly all Prophets (asws) but that can wait.

It's not about the Qur'an. It's about your double standards. It's about you being unjust, unfair and unreasonable. That's what we point out.

It is about the Qur'an.  Had you read it, you would not have made the ridiculous false claim that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets".

I will be there to point out and correct you.

You are welcome for being corrected.

[muslim720]

....read the one above....

[iceman]

You suffer from what I would label as "Severe Chronic Stupidity Disorder" or SCSD.  I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better.

You started by asking me "so who's better and superior" and in the next post, you said "how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't". 

You are attacking the answer to a question which you posed and answered, lol.  Strawman much?

Other than you, who said anything about someone being better and superior?

ALHAMDULILAH!  You finally revealed your disbelief in the Qur'an.  Let me set the order of events straight.

1.  You said, "Allah has even categorised Messengers and Prophets."

2.  I responded by quoting Surah Al'e Imran verse 84: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

3.  You responded with "I disagree with that".

EXACTLY OUR CASE AGAINST YOU!  You even disagree with Allah (swt).

This has nothing to do with Sahaba (ra).  I shattered your lie that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets" to prove your fallacious position that there is a hierarchy of who is who, who is superior and better, etc, even among the Prophets (asws).

We can always talk about the abhorrent lie that certain "infallible" individuals (ra) are above nearly all Prophets (asws) but that can wait.

It is about the Qur'an.  Had you read it, you would not have made the ridiculous false claim that Allah (swt) "has even categorised Messengers and Prophets".

You are welcome for being corrected.

"You suffer from what I would label as "Severe Chronic Stupidity Disorder" or SCSD.  I never said a word regarding anyone being superior or better"

For heavens sake open your mind and then use your sense. Look at the title of this blooming thread. It speaks. And go through the thread and notice certain posts. Stop behaving like an ignorant fool.

"You started by asking me "so who's better and superior" and in the next post, you said "how can those who fled be better and superior to those who didn't"

For the live of God I don't need to ask you. We all know who were better and superior. This discussion ain't something new that I've come across. The attempt to put the Shaykhain or Khulafaa e Salasa above the others, above the rest has been going on for a long time. We're just arguing the logic and reason behind it. Who got the leadership first is better and superior than who got into authority second and third.

This is the Ahle Sunnah perspective that tarteeb e fazeelat (sequence of superiority) is based on tarteeb e Caliphate (sequence of leadership). We strongly disagree with this. We believe being better and superiority is based on merits regarding character, performance and achievement based on all sectors, division, fields and departments.

"We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

Ok, then why is Muhammad s.a.w, who is the last better and above the rest. Just to knock your head to jog your memory, "Afzalul or Ashraful Ambia Wal Mursaleen" is this not said about Muhammad s.a.w? Is this not a clear DISTINCTION?

"EXACTLY OUR CASE AGAINST YOU!  You even disagree with Allah (swt)"

I don't. You're just twisting things around to your desire. You're struggling with the argument and are too stubborn to admit and accept. So you're trying to score points just to save yourself.

[iceman]

Al Bakarah, 2:253

"Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) and We supported him with the holy Spirit. And if Allah had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proofs had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and some disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed it, they would not have fought one with another; but Allah doeth what He will."

[iceman]

Al-An'am (The Cattle) - 6:165 

"He it is who hath placed you as viceroys of the earth and hath exalted some of you in rank above others, that He may try you by (the test of) that which He hath given you. Lo! Thy Lord is swift in prosecution, and lo! He is Forgiving, Merciful"

[iceman]

Proclamations of the Classical Scholars and Jurists

1. Imam al-Aazam Abu Hanifa gave one of the pithiest definitions of Sunnism in Islam:

"The doctrine of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama'a consists in preferring the Two Shaykhs (tafdil al-shaykhayn) [i.e. Abu Bakr and 'Umar over the rest], loving the Two Sons-in-law (hubb al-khatanayn) [i.e. 'Ali and 'Uthman], and [deeming lawful the] wiping on leather socks [in ablution] (al-mas-h 'alal-khuffayn) [i.e. all three contrary to Shi'is]." [Khulasat al-Fatawa, Vol. 2, Page 381]

Narrated by Ibn 'Abd al-Barr in al-Intiqa' bi-Manaqib al-A'immat al-Thalathati al-Fuqaha' through several different chains. The same is also related from Sufyan al-Thawri by al-La'laka'i in his I'tiqad Ahl al-Sunna, Vol. 1, Page 152.

2. Imam al-Aazam Abu Hanifah in Fiqh Al-Akbar:

The most superior and the best of all men after prophets – blessings and peace upon them – is Abu Bakr as-Siddiq. And then, Umar ibn al-Khattab al-Faruq. And then Uthman ibn Affan Dhu'n Nurayn. And then ali ibn Abu talib al-Murtada. May Allah be well pleased with them all; they were worshippers and steadfast on Truth and sided with Truth. We love all of them. [Fiqh Al-Akbar]

3. Imam al-Nawawi said in his Fatawa:

"Know that each of Abu Bakr and 'Umar is better than 'Ali according to the Consensus (ijma') of Ahl al-Sunna. The proofs for this in well-known sound hadiths are too famous and countless to be listed." [Fatawa Imam Nawawi, Page 264]

4. Imam al-Haytami said in his Fatawa Hadithiyya:

"The preferability of Abu Bakr over the other three [of the first four Caliphs] and that of 'Umar over the ther two is agreed upon by Consensus (mujma' 'alayh) of Ahl al-Sunna and there is no disagreement among them concerning this." [Fatawa Hadithiyya, Page 155]

5. Ali al-Qari in MinaH ar-Rawd al-Az'har, SharH Fiqh al-Akbar:

The best of humans after prophets [peace and blessings upon them] is Abu Bakr Radi Allahu Ta'ala Anhu... The superiority of Abu Bakr and Umar is an unanimous agreement in the Ahl as-Sunnah. [Sharh Fiqh al-Akbar]

6. Mulla 'Ali al-Qari said in Sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar:

"It is patent that to prefer 'Ali to the Two Shaykhs contravenes the doctrine of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama'a according to what the totality of the Salaf follow." [Sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, Page 140]

So tell me about distinction, categorising,
superiority putting one or some above the other/s.

[iceman]

I missed this one. Allow me to give it to you on the basis of what you said here.

"I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years"

This is exactly what I mean. Based on your statement here why are you so hesitant to accept and mention those cowards who fled to save their lives abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded.

"At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield"

It would have been better if they didn’t by coming up with some excuse. That would have saved them from embarrassment.


"Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years"

And don't hesitate and hold back in mentioning your cowards. Our coward ran from those in authority. Your cowards abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded and all alone. Something that our coward didn't do. So in your own words mention your cowards just like you are quick in mentioning our coward.😊

[Abu Rumaysah]

The superiority of first two caliphs is proven my mutawatir hadith from hz Ali himself.
http://gift2shias.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/tafdil.doc

[iceman]

The superiority of first two caliphs is proven my mutawatir hadith from hz Ali himself.
http://gift2shias.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/tafdil.doc

So you categorise the Sahaba. You distinguish between them. OK,  how and it what way are the first two superior.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

I missed this one. Allow me to give it to you on the basis of what you said here.

"I would shut up if I were you especially when you believe in a coward who has been on the run for over 1000 years"

This is exactly what I mean. Based on your statement here why are you so hesitant to accept and mention those cowards who fled to save their lives abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded.

"At least the Sahaba (ra) initially showed up on the battlefield"

It would have been better if they didn’t by coming up with some excuse. That would have saved them from embarrassment.


"Your coward has set the record for running in a marathon stretching over a span of 1000 years"

And don't hesitate and hold back in mentioning your cowards. Our coward ran from those in authority. Your cowards abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded and all alone. Something that our coward didn't do. So in your own words mention your cowards just like you are quick in mentioning our coward.😊

Shias will disown this guy for this admission.

[iceman]

Shias will disown this guy for this admission.

We don't DISOWN anyone. It's about facts here. You labelled him a COWARD but those who RAN/FLED from the battlefield, who clearly come in the COWARD CATEGORY without a shadow of a doubt,
you are soooo HESITANT and AFRAID to call them COWARDS. Where as you are quick to pick on this guy always and all the time. 😊😊😊

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

We don't DISOWN anyone. It's about facts here. You labelled him a COWARD but those who RAN/FLED from the battlefield, who clearly come in the COWARD CATEGORY without a shadow of a doubt,
you are soooo HESITANT and AFRAID to call them COWARDS. Where as you are quick to pick on this guy always and all the time. 😊😊😊

Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward. But what is more funny is that you don’t have any verse which pardons your guy, while the ones who ran away in battle we’re forgiven by Allah.

P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable.

[iceman]

Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward. But what is more funny is that you don’t have any verse which pardons your guy, while the ones who ran away in battle we’re forgiven by Allah.

P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable.

"Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward"

The irony is that you guys desperately want to get hold of anything you can find that goes against us. If you can't find anything then you take things out of context or proportion. I didn't admit anything. For argumentative reasons you claim Al Mahdi to be a coward. Why? Because you claim he's in hiding or went into hiding because of fear.

Now those who ran out of fear absolutely and clearly come in the category of cowards but you're too hesitant and shy to call cowards coward. That's my point and you know what my point is. But you desperately want to make a show of this. I won't let you. 😊

You want to call Al Mahdi a coward then have the nerve and guts to call cowards coward. Allah forgave them. Yes, he probably did. But he forgave them for fleeing which was seen and known as a crime in those circumstances. But that doesn't mean they're not cowards anymore.

They still remain in that category everytime that particular matter is discussed. Just as when a matter is discussed then a particular persons or people's bravery is mentioned because of that matter.  😊

"P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

Then what seems to be the problem. Why do you bring in the verse where Allah forgives them by pardon. Then one shouldn't jump to the verse.

"is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

When we say the same thing about certain references you put forward and don't see them as authentic and reliable then why isn't that accepted. What you see fit and reasonable for you, you should see fit and reasonable for us. 😊

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

"Irony is that you admitted that your guy was a coward"

The irony is that you guys desperately want to get hold of anything you can find that goes against us. If you can't find anything then you take things out of context or proportion. I didn't admit anything. For argumentative reasons you claim Al Mahdi to be a coward. Why? Because you claim he's in hiding or went into hiding because of fear.

Now those who ran out of fear absolutely and clearly come in the category of cowards but you're too hesitant and shy to call cowards coward. That's my point and you know what my point is. But you desperately want to make a show of this. I won't let you. 😊

You want to call Al Mahdi a coward then have the nerve and guts to call cowards coward. Allah forgave them. Yes, he probably did. But he forgave them for fleeing which was seen and known as a crime in those circumstances. But that doesn't mean they're not cowards anymore.

They still remain in that category everytime that particular matter is discussed. Just as when a matter is discussed then a particular persons or people's bravery is mentioned because of that matter.  😊

"P.s the thread is for two caliphs and there is no clear evidence that first two ever ran in any battle. What all you could bring  is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

Then what seems to be the problem. Why do you bring in the verse where Allah forgives them by pardon. Then one shouldn't jump to the verse.

"is either ambiguous and vague which will be  misinterpreted by you or it will be weak and unreliable"

When we say the same thing about certain references you put forward and don't see them as authentic and reliable then why isn't that accepted. What you see fit and reasonable for you, you should see fit and reasonable for us. 😊

The topic of thread is first two caliphs , so it quite unlikely that the issue of your Mahdi going into occultation our of fear would come up without any reason, you must have started attacking companions of Prophet(saws), due to which you were shown the mirror, just to expose your double Standards. But I’m amazed to see you agree, for arguments sake that your guy was a coward. LOL.

And you asking me to accuse someone of a sin which they committed and were forgiven, and they proved themselves in later events in their life which proves they weren’t coward,  but your guy still remains in occultation due to fear and there is no proof that he was pardoned. But you still have the audacity to attack those who were forgiven by Allah in Quran but not your guy.

[iceman]

The topic of thread is first two caliphs , so it quite unlikely that the issue of your Mahdi going into occultation our of fear would come up without any reason, you must have started attacking companions of Prophet(saws), due to which you were shown the mirror, just to expose your double Standards. But I’m amazed to see you agree, for arguments sake that your guy was a coward. LOL.

And you asking me to accuse someone of a sin which they committed and were forgiven, and they proved themselves in later events in their life which proves they weren’t coward,  but your guy still remains in occultation due to fear and there is no proof that he was pardoned. But you still have the audacity to attack those who were forgiven by Allah in Quran but not your guy.

You are one bias as well as prejudice individual. It doesn't matter what the title of the thread is and what ever is being discussed, Imamah and Al Mahdi is always mocked. You and I both know that so lets not waste our time going down that road. We are Shia, that means your kind get a free pass. In other words you can say what you want about us and behave the way you want with us. Lets not play dumb and blind over this.

"you must have started attacking companions of Prophet(saws)"

Don't go looking for excuses based on
assumptions.