Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*

[learning boy]

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

I used to attend a sunni islamic school when I was younger (age 5 until 13), and many of the students there would do wudu with their shoes on as well. Literally wipe the bottom of their shoes with a wet palm.

[ShiaMan]

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

Ah, the laissez-faire attitude of these brothers.

I used to attend a sunni islamic school when I was younger (age 5 until 13), and many of the students there would do wudu with their shoes on as well. Literally wipe the bottom of their shoes with a wet palm.

[muslim720]

You said it brother:

Read it again.  I said, "face (nose plus forehead)" thinking you would understand.  But somehow you derived cheeks and ears from it.  If only you Shias read what is in front of you instead of inserting anomalies in it to turn things in your favor.

Perhaps in all 4 schools of Sunni thought the nose is a requirement, not in shia fiqh and of course we all know Shia fiqh came before the 4 Sunni schools.

This has nothing to do with schools.  It has to do with obeying the Prophet [saw].  Our fiqh started with the Prophet [saw] whereas your school started at the time of fitnah.  So tell me how did your fiqh come before ours again?  Also, your books of fiqh came well after ours - not to mention you borrowed our methodology of authenticating narrations which caused more problems for your hadith collections than solve them - and our fiqh is a direct reflection of the Sunnah, hence the term, "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah".  You call yourself, "Jaffari", therefore, your fiqh is about six generations removed from the Prophet [saw], as per your own label.  So to the one who knows nothing about Islam, even he or she can see that we are people, and followers, of Sunnah (of Muhammad [saw]) while you are followers of Imam Jaffar [ra]. 

History and semantics oppose your false claim.

So then there are 8 points of contact and not 7. Let me count for you:
1) Right big toe
2) Left Big toe
3) Right Knee
4) Left Knee
5) Right Palm
6) Left Palm
7) Forehead
Nose.

The noose be a tightin'

Sure is tightening because you can count but you cannot read.  The Prophet [saw] mentioned "seven bones" that must make contact with the ground when you make sajdah.  When he [saw] mentioned the forehead, he [saw] also included the nose.

"It is not permissible for a worshipper to lift up any of these seven parts of the body when prostrating, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him) said: 'I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: on the forehead, and he pointed to his nose, and on the two hands, the two knees and the edges of the two feet (i.e., the toes)'.  Narrated by al-Bukhārī, 812; Muslim, 490.  If he lifts up one or both of his feet, or one or both of his hands, or his forehead or nose, or both of them, then his prostration is invalid and does not count, and if his prostration is invalid then his prayer is also invalid'."  (Liqaa'aat al-Baab al-Maftooh by Shaykh Ibn ʿUthaymīn, 2/99)

When the Prophet [saw] spelled it out, he mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose thereby making them as one single point thus making it very clear that you cannot make contact with your forehead and not your nose or vice-versa.

That aside, please tell us why, when you prostrate, your palms, knees and toes are on the prayer rug?  If we are to prostrate on soil, all points must come in contact with it.

I suggest you start doing some knee drags to rip your pants for those knees to be exposed, lol!

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

Praying with shoes on is a separate matter that can be discussed by itself.  This discussion is about prostration.  Whether you include the nose or not, please tell us why you deny your palms, knees and toes from coming in contact with soil (or earthly matter) when you prostrate? 

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.  If you insist on making sajdah on soil, you must make sure that all those seven parts come in contact with it.  If not, your logic is flawed.  I think it is the latter.

FYI, I respect Ayatollah Sistani (if that comes as a shock) but it is sad to see him declare leaves (even paper) permissible but not cotton when we know that it grows on trees.  Furthermore, he ruled out prostrating on anything used for clothing when it is common knowledge that at the time of the Prophet [saw], they would use their garments to prostrate on, while praying outside, if the ground was too hot.

[ShiaMan]

You said it brother:

Read it again.  I said, "face (nose plus forehead)" thinking you would understand.  But somehow you derived cheeks and ears from it.  If only you Shias read what is in front of you instead of inserting anomalies in it to turn things in your favor.

Perhaps in all 4 schools of Sunni thought the nose is a requirement, not in shia fiqh and of course we all know Shia fiqh came before the 4 Sunni schools.

This has nothing to do with schools.  It has to do with obeying the Prophet [saw].  Our fiqh started with the Prophet [saw] whereas your school started at the time of fitnah.  So tell me how did your fiqh come before ours again?  Also, your books of fiqh came well after ours - not to mention you borrowed our methodology of authenticating narrations which caused more problems for your hadith collections than solve them - and our fiqh is a direct reflection of the Sunnah, hence the term, "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah".  You call yourself, "Jaffari", therefore, your fiqh is about six generations removed from the Prophet [saw], as per your own label.  So to the one who knows nothing about Islam, even he or she can see that we are people, and followers, of Sunnah (of Muhammad [saw]) while you are followers of Imam Jaffar [ra]. 

History and semantics oppose your false claim.

So then there are 8 points of contact and not 7. Let me count for you:
1) Right big toe
2) Left Big toe
3) Right Knee
4) Left Knee
5) Right Palm
6) Left Palm
7) Forehead
Nose.

The noose be a tightin'

Sure is tightening because you can count but you cannot read.  The Prophet [saw] mentioned "seven bones" that must make contact with the ground when you make sajdah.  When he [saw] mentioned the forehead, he [saw] also included the nose.

"It is not permissible for a worshipper to lift up any of these seven parts of the body when prostrating, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him) said: 'I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: on the forehead, and he pointed to his nose, and on the two hands, the two knees and the edges of the two feet (i.e., the toes)'.  Narrated by al-Bukhārī, 812; Muslim, 490.  If he lifts up one or both of his feet, or one or both of his hands, or his forehead or nose, or both of them, then his prostration is invalid and does not count, and if his prostration is invalid then his prayer is also invalid'."  (Liqaa'aat al-Baab al-Maftooh by Shaykh Ibn ʿUthaymīn, 2/99)

When the Prophet [saw] spelled it out, he mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose thereby making them as one single point thus making it very clear that you cannot make contact with your forehead and not your nose or vice-versa.

That aside, please tell us why, when you prostrate, your palms, knees and toes are on the prayer rug?  If we are to prostrate on soil, all points must come in contact with it.

I suggest you start doing some knee drags to rip your pants for those knees to be exposed, lol!

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

Praying with shoes on is a separate matter that can be discussed by itself.  This discussion is about prostration.  Whether you include the nose or not, please tell us why you deny your palms, knees and toes from coming in contact with soil (or earthly matter) when you prostrate? 

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.  If you insist on making sajdah on soil, you must make sure that all those seven parts come in contact with it.  If not, your logic is flawed.  I think it is the latter.

FYI, I respect Ayatollah Sistani (if that comes as a shock) but it is sad to see him declare leaves (even paper) permissible but not cotton when we know that it grows on trees.  Furthermore, he ruled out prostrating on anything used for clothing when it is common knowledge that at the time of the Prophet [saw], they would use their garments to prostrate on, while praying outside, if the ground was too hot.

So you did say face when you said you didn't say face. Make up your mind. Is the stuff in parenthesis your interpretation or someone else's? This may be a shock to you but face and forehead are different.

Oh wait, I just realized you are a wahabi and don't belong to any of the 4 standard sects. Is that correct? If that is the case, then you are even later in like because everything you believe comes from Ibn Taymiah and Abdul Wabab and not the Prophet.

Didnt we reach the conclusion that the forehead is the essence of sajdah? So at the very least I have 1/7 on soil or natural occurring thing while you are 0/7. You fail again.

[muslim720]

So you did say face when you said you didn't say face. Make up your mind. Is the stuff in parenthesis your interpretation or someone else's? This may be a shock to you but face and forehead are different.

I should have known better than to write it out the way I did.  Your kind is known for dancing around the point and clutching on just about anything.  What I said holds no weight; the Prophet [saw] mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose as well thereby making them as one single unit.  You have a problem with the Prophet [saw], not me.

Oh wait, I just realized you are a wahabi and don't belong to any of the 4 standard sects. Is that correct? If that is the case, then you are even later in like because everything you believe comes from Ibn Taymiah and Abdul Wabab and not the Prophet.

If you had an ounce of decency, you would have remembered my other post regarding visiting shrines in which I clearly mentioned that I am not against visiting shrines.  In fact, I would love to visit Karbala and Najaf after I have visited the three holy mosques, inshaAllah. 

Come to think of it, you even liked that post then and now you are calling me a "Wahabbi".  Usually name-calling and labeling is the beginning of the end for Shias.  It was expected that you would wither away but not this soon.

Didnt we reach the conclusion that the forehead is the essence of sajdah? So at the very least I have 1/7 on soil or natural occurring thing while you are 0/7. You fail again.

For sajdah to be valid, repeating myself for the last time, all points must come in contact with the ground.  Even if one point does not, your sajdah is invalid.  The Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah, in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah, does not declare prostrating on turbah - specifically made from the soil of Karbala - to be an obligation upon all Muslims.  Shias, on the other hand, have made it to be one.  Therefore, when they attack us, we - as rational Muslims - point to the remaining points (that do not come in contact with the turbah) and ask, "what about them?"

Let me break this down further.  For one second, if we assume that Shias are correct and sajdah must be made on soil, then your palms, knees and toes not coming in contact with soil (or turbah) invalidates your prostration (because these points are not coming in contact with the thing that validates sajdah which, as per Shias, is soil or turbah).  Hence, you Shias have come up with your own standard which in turn invalidates your own practice of sajdah, not ours lol!

[ShiaMan]

So you did say face when you said you didn't say face. Make up your mind. Is the stuff in parenthesis your interpretation or someone else's? This may be a shock to you but face and forehead are different.

I should have known better than to write it out the way I did.  Your kind is known for dancing around the point and clutching on just about anything.  What I said holds no weight; the Prophet [saw] mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose as well thereby making them as one single unit.  You have a problem with the Prophet [saw], not me.

Oh wait, I just realized you are a wahabi and don't belong to any of the 4 standard sects. Is that correct? If that is the case, then you are even later in like because everything you believe comes from Ibn Taymiah and Abdul Wabab and not the Prophet.

If you had an ounce of decency, you would have remembered my other post regarding visiting shrines in which I clearly mentioned that I am not against visiting shrines.  In fact, I would love to visit Karbala and Najaf after I have visited the three holy mosques, inshaAllah. 

Come to think of it, you even liked that post then and now you are calling me a "Wahabbi".  Usually name-calling and labeling is the beginning of the end for Shias.  It was expected that you would wither away but not this soon.

Didnt we reach the conclusion that the forehead is the essence of sajdah? So at the very least I have 1/7 on soil or natural occurring thing while you are 0/7. You fail again.

For sajdah to be valid, repeating myself for the last time, all points must come in contact with the ground.  Even if one point does not, your sajdah is invalid.  The Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah, in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah, does not declare prostrating on turbah - specifically made from the soil of Karbala - to be an obligation upon all Muslims.  Shias, on the other hand, have made it to be one.  Therefore, when they attack us, we - as rational Muslims - point to the remaining points (that do not come in contact with the turbah) and ask, "what about them?"

Let me break this down further.  For one second, if we assume that Shias are correct and sajdah must be made on soil, then your palms, knees and toes not coming in contact with soil (or turbah) invalidates your prostration (because these points are not coming in contact with the thing that validates sajdah which, as per Shias, is soil or turbah).  Hence, you Shias have come up with your own standard which in turn invalidates your own practice of sajdah, not ours lol!

I do sincerely apologize for calling you a wahabi. But then how can you say your fiqh comes straight from Muhammad. Jafari fiqh and the 4 schools all say they are taking their fiqh from the Prophet. However, it is a known fact the founders of the 4 schools followed (as in came after) Jafar Al-Sadiq so unless they traveled back in time to find out from the Prophet, they came after Jafar Al-Sadiq.

Back to sajdah, we are in agreement that all 7 points need to touch for sajdah to be complete (nose we can discuss thereafter). However, you have failed to answer a simple question - is the essence of sajdah the forehead or not? A man can do sajdah without toes, knees, palms but not forehead. So while all 6 touch the ground, the most essential part should touch the soil as a mustahib whenever possible.

It is pretty straightforward.

[muslim720]

I do sincerely apologize for calling you a wahabi.

No worries, brother!

But then how can you say your fiqh comes straight from Muhammad.

Just like you said that your fiqh preceded ours!

Jafari fiqh and the 4 schools all say they are taking their fiqh from the Prophet.

Exactly!  So you should contemplate as to why the four schools of Sunnis are so close with each other but the Jaffari school is so isolated from them (in practice and thought).  If we were to apply logic, I would say it is more likely that one person is lying as opposed to four.  The four Sunni schools of fiqh are all under the umbrella of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah and it is permissible to follow any of them.  However, we do not say the same for "Jaffari" fiqh because those who claim to follow Imam Jaffar [ra] - the descendant of Prophet [saw] and Abu Bakr [ra] - have made it an article of faith that cursing Imam Jaffar's [ra] ancestor (Abu Bakr) is part of the good deeds.

However, you have failed to answer a simple question - is the essence of sajdah the forehead or not? A man can do sajdah without toes, knees, palms but not forehead.

The essence of sajdah, pay attention now, is the forehead and nose, two palms, two knees and two toes.  Before you find another escape route or a dimension to add to all this in order to find new straws to clutch on, if a healthy, normal person makes sajdah and any one of those points do not come in contact with the ground, their sajdah is invalid.  All seven points are equally important; one does not take precedence over another.

So while all 6 touch the ground, the most essential part should touch the soil as a mustahib whenever possible.

But the other 6, in your case, touches the carpet, not soil.  So if your aqeedah teaches you that you must prostrate on soil, all 7 points must touch the soil, not carpet.  Goes back to what I said!  You (Shias) established this practice and when you came after us to mock us, we found out that your own established practice mocks you more than it mocks us, lol!

[ShiaMan]

Just like you said that your fiqh preceded ours!

So we know that the 4 Sunni Imams got their knowledge from a variety of scholars. Do you have a list of all the scholars they studied under?

Jafar Al-Sadiq --> Muhammad Al-Baqir --> Ali Al-Sajjad --> Hussain As-Shaheed --> Hasan Al-Mujtaba --> Ali Al-Murtaza --> Prophet (saw)

Pick the chain of any 4 Sunni imams to the Prophet and compare to this chain. Which would you trust?

Exactly!  So you should contemplate as to why the four schools of Sunnis are so close with each other but the Jaffari school is so isolated from them (in practice and thought).  If we were to apply logic, I would say it is more likely that one person is lying as opposed to four.  The four Sunni schools of fiqh are all under the umbrella of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah and it is permissible to follow any of them.  However, we do not say the same for "Jaffari" fiqh because those who claim to follow Imam Jaffar [ra] - the descendant of Prophet [saw] and Abu Bakr [ra] - have made it an article of faith that cursing Imam Jaffar's [ra] ancestor (Abu Bakr) is part of the good deeds.

Correction, we do not curse Caliph Abu Bakr. We curse all those who either opposed or oppressed the AhlulBayt. Now if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category, then the question to be asked is why did he oppose the AhlulBayt?

The essence of sajdah, pay attention now, is the forehead and nose, two palms, two knees and two toes.  Before you find another escape route or a dimension to add to all this in order to find new straws to clutch on, if a healthy, normal person makes sajdah and any one of those points do not come in contact with the ground, their sajdah is invalid.  All seven points are equally important; one does not take precedence over another.

I paid attention - now 7 points are required for jdah but the forehead is the essence of sajdah.

But the other 6, in your case, touches the carpet, not soil.  So if your aqeedah teaches you that you must prostrate on soil, all 7 points must touch the soil, not carpet.  Goes back to what I said!  You (Shias) established this practice and when you came after us to mock us, we found out that your own established practice mocks you more than it mocks us, lol!

Now, I could try to bring shia sources for why only on forehead but let's start with this one from Sahih Bukhari:
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to practice I`tikaf in the middle ten days of Ramadan and once he stayed in I`tikaf till the night of the twenty-first and it was the night in the morning of which he used to come out of his I`tikaf. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Whoever was in I`tikaf with me should stay in I`tikaf for the last ten days, for I was informed (of the date) of the Night (of Qadr) but I have been caused to forget it. (In the dream) I saw myself prostrating in mud and water in the morning of that night. So, look for it in the last ten nights and in the odd ones of them." It rained that night and the roof of the mosque dribbled as it was made of leaf stalks of date-palms. I saw with my own eyes the mark of mud and water on the forehead of the Prophet (i.e. in the morning of the twenty-first).
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 33, Hadith 3

If it said all 7 (plus nose) were covered in mud/water then we would do the same.

BTW - there are other narrations in Sahih Bukhari that say mud and water covered his forehead and nose.

Also, please tell me what shia has mocked a sunni for not praying on turbah. there are sunni brothers who attend jumah at my mosque and do not use turbah - no one has ever said anything to them.

Finally - we can discuss turbah all day long, but since you have visited shia mosques, do you believe shias are praying to the Imams by praying on it?

[muslim720]

So we know that the 4 Sunni Imams got their knowledge from a variety of scholars.

Cute!  When needed, you parrot what Al-Tijani wrote; that the Sunni Imams of fiqh [rah] were students of Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq [ra].  When required, you make them out to have teachers other than Imam Jaffar [ra].

Jafar Al-Sadiq --> Muhammad Al-Baqir --> Ali Al-Sajjad --> Hussain As-Shaheed --> Hasan Al-Mujtaba --> Ali Al-Murtaza --> Prophet (saw)

Pick the chain of any 4 Sunni imams to the Prophet and compare to this chain. Which would you trust?

Is this the only chain that can take you to the Prophet [saw]?  Could there not have been other pious Muslims, those who lived with the Prophet [saw] that passed down knowledge?  From the chain you have shared, as honorable as it is, other than Imam Ali [ra], the other Imams [ra] never saw the Prophet [saw] with Imam Hassan [ra] and Imam Hussain [ra] being children when the Prophet [saw] left this world.

But to answer your question, Imam Malik [rah] and Imam Abu Hanifa [rah] studied under Imam Jaffar [ra].  Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] was from Banu Muttalib, a sister clan to Banu Hashim, and studied under Imam Malik [rah] (who studied under Imam Jaffar [ra]).  Lastly, Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal [rah] also studied under Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] (whose knowledge is linked to Imam Jaffar [ra] as well). 

So while you all like to limit the chain and make it appear as though no one else had access to the Prophet [saw] or any other chain was void, we do not hold such beliefs.  And that we learned from the Prophet [saw] who himself did not withhold knowledge or share it only with a prestigious group.

Your religion is one of exclusiveness while we are all-inclusive.  You chop up Islam while we follow it holistically.

Correction, we do not curse Caliph Abu Bakr. We curse all those who either opposed or oppressed the AhlulBayt. Now if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category, then the question to be asked is why did he oppose the AhlulBayt?

It is not a matter of "if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category".  If you are true followers of Imam Jaffar [ra], show us when, where and how he cursed Abu Bakr [ra].  From what I know, Imam Jaffar [ra] would never do such a thing which brings us to my main point.  You do not follow Imam Jaffar [ra] in the least bit.  You have just adorned yourself with a label bearing his name.

I paid attention - now 7 points are required for jdah but the forehead is the essence of sajdah.

Let us see your helpless proof to support your laughable conclusion.

Now, I could try to bring shia sources for why only on forehead but let's start with this one from Sahih Bukhari

You wanted the narrator to check the palms of the Prophet [saw], followed by inspecting his knees and finally his toes?  But let me get to your blunder.

If it said all 7 (plus nose) were covered in mud/water then we would do the same.

BTW - there are other narrations in Sahih Bukhari that say mud and water covered his forehead and nose.

Wallaahi, seeing how you contradict yourself, I am convinced you are not fit to have a discussion with.  You say, "if it said all 7 were covered....then we would do the same" only to turn around and admit that there are other narrations that include the nose.  And it was yesterday that you were arguing over nose being or not being a part of the "seven bones". 

The irony of your madhhab is that you believe in a hiding Imam but you will not believe the words and practices of Prophet [saw] which are clear as daylight.

Also, please tell me what shia has mocked a sunni for not praying on turbah. there are sunni brothers who attend jumah at my mosque and do not use turbah - no one has ever said anything to them.

Been to such a mosque and I always pray without but that does not mean that there is no mockery going on.  When I read the pamphlets there, trying to establish a case for turbah using our books, it is clear that it is nothing short of mockery.  It is the same as saying, "we know your books better than you".

Finally - we can discuss turbah all day long, but since you have visited shia mosques, do you believe shias are praying to the Imams by praying on it?

No but to insist that sajdah can only be made on soil to make a special case for the soil of Karbala is not far from blurring the boundaries of Tawheed.

[ShiaMan]

Cute!  When needed, you parrot what Al-Tijani wrote; that the Sunni Imams of fiqh [rah] were students of Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq [ra].  When required, you make them out to have teachers other than Imam Jaffar [ra].

Do either Tejani or I say that their exclusive teacher was Jafar Al-Sadiq or for that matter that they were the only students of Jafar Al-Sadiq???

Is this the only chain that can take you to the Prophet [saw]?  Could there not have been other pious Muslims, those who lived with the Prophet [saw] that passed down knowledge?  From the chain you have shared, as honorable as it is, other than Imam Ali [ra], the other Imams [ra] never saw the Prophet [saw] with Imam Hassan [ra] and Imam Hussain [ra] being children when the Prophet [saw] left this world.

But to answer your question, Imam Malik [rah] and Imam Abu Hanifa [rah] studied under Imam Jaffar [ra].  Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] was from Banu Muttalib, a sister clan to Banu Hashim, and studied under Imam Malik [rah] (who studied under Imam Jaffar [ra]).  Lastly, Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal [rah] also studied under Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] (whose knowledge is linked to Imam Jaffar [ra] as well). 

So while you all like to limit the chain and make it appear as though no one else had access to the Prophet [saw] or any other chain was void, we do not hold such beliefs.  And that we learned from the Prophet [saw] who himself did not withhold knowledge or share it only with a prestigious group.

Your religion is one of exclusiveness while we are all-inclusive.  You chop up Islam while we follow it holistically.

To make it simple - no we are not limited to taking Islam from Imams only but from the sahaba who were loyal to AhlulBayt as well.
Your 'holistic'Islam simply means you do not use sound judgement in understand Islam but take everything. We vet things before accepting them because the history of Islam is fraught with liars.

It is not a matter of "if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category".  If you are true followers of Imam Jaffar [ra], show us when, where and how he cursed Abu Bakr [ra].  From what I know, Imam Jaffar [ra] would never do such a thing which brings us to my main point.  You do not follow Imam Jaffar [ra] in the least bit.  You have just adorned yourself with a label bearing his name.

Ziarat-e-Ashura has a chain to Jafar Al-Sadiq wherein the enemies of AhlulBayt are cursed. If Caliph Abu Bakr is not guilty, it is not applicable to him.

Wallaahi, seeing how you contradict yourself, I am convinced you are not fit to have a discussion with.  You say, "if it said all 7 were covered....then we would do the same" only to turn around and admit that there are other narrations that include the nose.  And it was yesterday that you were arguing over nose being or not being a part of the "seven bones". 

The irony of your madhhab is that you believe in a hiding Imam but you will not believe the words and practices of Prophet [saw] which are clear as daylight.

Are you always irrational or only when talking discussing with shias?
The only discussion to be had on the nose is whether it is wajib to touch it to the ground or not. I have already said it is mustahab.  So when most of the narrations say "(nose)" one has to consider why it is so. Or when Ibn Abbas and others say 7 bones plus nose (or point at their nose).

Two examples of sunnis who say it is makrouh not to touch the nose:
http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Books/GLIS/oap.htm
Q22: What is Sajdah?
A. Placing the forehead firmly on the ground is called Sajdah.
Placing the inside(s) of respective one toe of both the feet on the ground is an important condition of Sajdah, of three toes is Wajib and of all the ten toes is Sunnah.

Q24: Will Sajdah be lawful if made only on the nose or only on the forehead?
A. One can observe Sajdah by placing only his nose on the ground if he can not touch his forehead with the ground due to some distress. However, the nose should be placed so firmly on the ground that its bone touches the ground. The observance of Sajdah only on the nose without any cogent reason renders prayer void and it is Makrooh to make Sajdah only on the forehead if one has no difficulty in placing his nose on the ground.


http://m.dinimizislam.com/detail_en.asp?Aid=6251
Actions That Are Makruh in Salat
22. Not touching the nose to the ground in sajda,

Sistani says mustahab to do, these guys say makrouh not to do. Clearly there are different rulings. What we do know is that hanafi consider it wajib, shias consider it mustahab and some others consider it makrouh not to do it.
Talk about making a mountain of a molehill.

Furthermore, the nose is a cartilage and not bone otherwise the hadith would have been 8 bones.

Lastly not everything the Prophet (saw) says is wajib. Like he recommended miswak, so are you going to now say it is wajib to do miswak.

Feel free to use your brain every now and then.

Been to such a mosque and I always pray without but that does not mean that there is no mockery going on.  When I read the pamphlets there, trying to establish a case for turbah using our books, it is clear that it is nothing short of mockery.  It is the same as saying, "we know your books better than you".

Wait, so shia mosques have books to explain the use of turbah and they cite shia and sunni references - to you that is a mockery of sunnism? Couldnt it simply be an explanation of our faith?
Paranoia extreme bro.
Now, if shias start putting these books (please name the book for me) in Sunni mosques, perhaps you will have a case.

No but to insist that sajdah can only be made on soil to make a special case for the soil of Karbala is not far from blurring the boundaries of Tawheed.

Did you not read the link where Sistani lists out all the different things where it is possible to do sajdah? Why do you say "only soil of karbala"?

let go of the hate and you will be able to think better.

[muslim720]

Do either Tejani or I say that their exclusive teacher was Jafar Al-Sadiq or for that matter that they were the only students of Jafar Al-Sadiq???

Depending on the scenario, Shias tend to flip between answers.  Like Fadak, for example.  One day it is given to Fatima [ra] as her inheritance; the next day it is gifted to her.

To make it simple - no we are not limited to taking Islam from Imams only but from the sahaba who were loyal to AhlulBayt as well.

Where is this criteria spelled out in the Qur'an?  Or are you pulling it out of your own whims?  And how could Abu Bakr [ra], Umar [ra] and Uthman [ra] not be loyal to Ahlul Bayt [ra] when they gave their daughters in marriage to the Prophet [saw] (in the case of the first two) and accepted the daughters of the Prophet [saw] in marriage (in the case of the third one)?

Your 'holistic'Islam simply means you do not use sound judgement in understand Islam but take everything. We vet things before accepting them because the history of Islam is fraught with liars.

We take everything?  Who invented the methodology to authenticate narrations?  While you want us to believe that we take everything, isn't your own prestigious sacred text, "Nahjul Balagha" without any narrators?  There is not a single chain for any of the material within its two covers and Imam Khomeini declared it the "Brother of the Qur'an", a statement he said was a reflection of the scholars of the past (so his declaration was not an one-off statement).

Ziarat-e-Ashura has a chain to Jafar Al-Sadiq wherein the enemies of AhlulBayt are cursed. If Caliph Abu Bakr is not guilty, it is not applicable to him.

Ziaarat-e-Aashura has no bearing on aqeedah since it occurred after the religion had been perfected.  A system declared perfect by Allah [swt] leaves no room for lamentations and passion stories which came six to seven decades later.

The only enemies of Ahlul Bayt [ra] - write this down somewhere - were, and are, those who pretend to be their lovers and supporters.  People who wrote letters to Imam Hussain [ra] pledging allegiance turned on him.  We have those who label themselves "Jaffari" while openly cursing his ancestor, without an ounce of shame and decency, on public (and private) forums.

The only discussion to be had on the nose is whether it is wajib to touch it to the ground or not. I have already said it is mustahab.  So when most of the narrations say "(nose)" one has to consider why it is so.

The Prophet [saw], in an authentic narration, mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose as well.  In other words, he [saw] included the nose in the "seven bones" by making the forehead and the nose to be a single point of contact.  Then you stated that if you learn otherwise from me, you would change the way you pray.  Thereafter, you shared a narration which stated that the Prophet [saw] had mud on his forehead after he had concluded his prayer.  You tried to pass it off as mud being absent from the remaining six "bones" and what a pathetic attempt that was considering that when we speak with people, we look at their face.  After sharing that hadith, you immediately mentioned that there are other narrations that make mention of the nose as well. 

Now tell me why is the nose mustahab, according to you?  And what exactly is your authority over the Prophet [saw] for us to change the Sunnah and declare the touching of the ground with the nose mustahab when the Prophet [saw] made it wajib?

Ibn Abbas [ra] narrated from the Prophet [saw] the following: "There is no prayer for someone whose nose does not touch the floor as much as his forehead."

Two examples of sunnis who say it is makrouh not to touch the nose:
http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Books/GLIS/oap.htm
Q22: What is Sajdah?
A. Placing the forehead firmly on the ground is called Sajdah.
Placing the inside(s) of respective one toe of both the feet on the ground is an important condition of Sajdah, of three toes is Wajib and of all the ten toes is Sunnah.

Now let us see who is irrational to the point of blindness.  On that very link, the answer to the second question - no need to jump to answer for question 22 - states:

"Q 2: How many obligatory acts are there in prayer? A. Seven obligatory acts are in prayer:
1. Takbeer-e-Tahreema (first utterance of the words of "Al-Laahu Akbar" (Allah is the Most Great) to commence prayer).
2. Qiyaam (standing erect).
3. Qiraa-at (recitation from the Holy Qur-aan).
4. Rukoo (bowing of the head with the hands grasping the knees).
5. Sujood: [singular: Sajdah] (prostrations with the forehead, nose, palms of the hands, knees and insides of toes of both the feet firmly placed on the ground).
6. Qa'adah-e-Akheera (last sitting posture).
7. Khurooj-e-Bisun'ihee (to end prayer with his own action or intention)."

Q24: Will Sajdah be lawful if made only on the nose or only on the forehead?
A. One can observe Sajdah by placing only his nose on the ground if he can not touch his forehead with the ground due to some distress. However, the nose should be placed so firmly on the ground that its bone touches the ground. The observance of Sajdah only on the nose without any cogent reason renders prayer void and it is Makrooh to make Sajdah only on the forehead if one has no difficulty in placing his nose on the ground.

Exactly why I went out of my way to mention the following in an earlier post of mine:
"Before you find another escape route or a dimension to add to all this in order to find new straws to clutch on, if a healthy, normal person makes sajdah and any one of those points do not come in contact with the ground, their sajdah is invalid." 

Healthy, normal person meaning one who is capable to do so without any distress.

Sistani says mustahab to do, these guys say makrouh not to do. Clearly there are different rulings. What we do know is that hanafi consider it wajib, shias consider it mustahab and some others consider it makrouh not to do it.

With all due respect, Ayatollah Sistani is someone I have tremendous respect for but I do not take fiqh or aqeedah from him.  As for this one considers it wajib and that one considers sajdah makrooh if nose does not come in contact, I think I already shared the refutation for it.

Furthermore, the nose is a cartilage and not bone otherwise the hadith would have been 8 bones.

Already answered, like 5 times, if not more!

Lastly not everything the Prophet (saw) says is wajib. Like he recommended miswak, so are you going to now say it is wajib to do miswak.

No because the Prophet [saw] himself said that he [saw] would have made it obligatory if not for it being inconvenient.  He [saw] also said that miswak (along with Witr and Tahajjud) are fardh upon him but sunnah upon us.

Feel free to use your brain every now and then.

Maybe you can heed your own advice.

Wait, so shia mosques have books to explain the use of turbah and they cite shia and sunni references - to you that is a mockery of sunnism? Couldnt it simply be an explanation of our faith?

These pamphlets do not have a single reference to any Shia texts.  Can you not explain your faith using your own texts?  You can but it does not do the job....the job being trying to one-up the rest of the ummah.

Now, if shias start putting these books (please name the book for me) in Sunni mosques, perhaps you will have a case.

lol, they cannot dare do so. 

Did you not read the link where Sistani lists out all the different things where it is possible to do sajdah? Why do you say "only soil of karbala"?

Shias make a special case for the soil of Karbala.  You pay lip service to other different things but you only value soil from Karbala.  Why are you so afraid to stand by your madhhab?

[MuslimK]

[muslim720]

Alhamdulilah, after failing to bring one single fatwa by any Shia scholar declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef, this is another point ShiaMan has failed to establish.  His own references backfired, lol!

[ShiaMan]

Where is this criteria spelled out in the Qur'an?  Or are you pulling it out of your own whims?  And how could Abu Bakr [ra], Umar [ra] and Uthman [ra] not be loyal to Ahlul Bayt [ra] when they gave their daughters in marriage to the Prophet [saw] (in the case of the first two) and accepted the daughters of the Prophet [saw] in marriage (in the case of the third one)?

You know where it says it is okay to follow one of the 4 Sunni imams or Bukhari is 100% sahih, just before it.

About the nose issue, I already showed you the different rulings and even in the video posted by MuslimK, Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis mentions and points to the forehead only and specifically, no mention of the nose.

Wait, so shia mosques have books to explain the use of turbah and they cite shia and sunni references - to you that is a mockery of sunnism? Couldnt it simply be an explanation of our faith?

These pamphlets do not have a single reference to any Shia texts.  Can you not explain your faith using your own texts?  You can but it does not do the job....the job being trying to one-up the rest of the ummah.

Just when I think you could not get any dumber, there you go surprising me again. Shias put pamphlets about turbah (please show me a copy) using sunni sources to explain to sunnis why it is used. There is no need to explain to a shia in a shia mosque because most likely the shia already knows. You failing miserably to show how anyone is making a mockery of anything.

Now, if shias start putting these books (please name the book for me) in Sunni mosques, perhaps you will have a case.

lol, they cannot dare do so. 

Probably true since the guy will have his head chopped off before he even reaches the door. And yet we allow sunnis to pray in our mosques on carpet and anything they deem fit.
You people...

Shias make a special case for the soil of Karbala.  You pay lip service to other different things but you only value soil from Karbala.  Why are you so afraid to stand by your madhhab?

If I was afraid, I would not be here.
No doubt the soil of Karbala holds special meaning for us. However, we are not limited to it by any means.

URL

Alhamdulilah, after failing to bring one single fatwa by any Shia scholar declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef, this is another point ShiaMan has failed to establish.  His own references backfired, lol!

While I usually ignore videos from Anti-Majoos, this one was interesting.

Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis indeed confirmed wajib points are forehead, palms, knees, toes. Did not mention nose.
He also confirmed it is okay to do sujud on turab (soil). he also confirmed we do sujud on anything that comes from the ground, etc.

Unfortunately for you guys, you have not proven anything other than your own stupidity.

[muslim720]

You know where it says it is okay to follow one of the 4 Sunni imams or Bukhari is 100% sahih, just before it.

Oh, at the corner of where Shiaism meets logic?  Gotcha!  Isn't there a cellar or hiding cave there as well?

About the nose issue, I already showed you the different rulings and even in the video posted by MuslimK, Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis mentions and points to the forehead only and specifically, no mention of the nose.

Your "different rulings" have been refuted long ago and I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.

Just when I think you could not get any dumber, there you go surprising me again. Shias put pamphlets about turbah (please show me a copy) using sunni sources to explain to sunnis why it is used. There is no need to explain to a shia in a shia mosque because most likely the shia already knows. You failing miserably to show how anyone is making a mockery of anything.

Let us proceed step-by-step.  The Shia, as you have mentioned, "already knows" to prostrate on turbah.  Then what is the point of having pamphlets (in Shia mosques) trying to establish the practice from our books?  It is to say to the few Sunnis (who happen to drop by) that we (Shias) are right and you (Sunnis) do not even know what is in your own texts.  Is that not a mockery?

Probably true since the guy will have his head chopped off before he even reaches the door. And yet we allow sunnis to pray in our mosques on carpet and anything they deem fit.
You people...

Honestly, Shias, like yourself, have no "head". 

If I was afraid, I would not be here.

...from behind a computer screen, lol!

No doubt the soil of Karbala holds special meaning for us. However, we are not limited to it by any means.

It sure does!  A religion (Islam) deeply rooted in monotheism has a sect which restricts prayer to having an object (clay, paper, whatever) for prostration thereby introducing elements of polytheism to it.  Either the religion is not quite monotheistic or the sect is misguided (in this issue).  I like to think it is the latter.

Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis indeed confirmed wajib points are forehead, palms, knees, toes. Did not mention nose.
He also confirmed it is okay to do sujud on turab (soil). he also confirmed we do sujud on anything that comes from the ground, etc.

Unfortunately for you guys, you have not proven anything other than your own stupidity.

Let us not talk about stupidity until you have brought forth a fatwa from your own scholars declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef.  Oh, I'm sorry, you already said you cannot.  And as I said earlier, I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.  Must be very hard for someone like yourself, who takes the verdicts of Ayatollah Sistani (who deems clothes not fit for prostration whereas the Prophet [saw] never forbade anyone from doing so) over the sunnah of the Prophet [saw], to comprehend this point.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

We read in Shia hadeeth:

أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع يَقُولُ لَا صَلَاةَ لِمَنْ لَمْ يُصِبْ أَنْفُهُ مَا يُصِيبُ جَبِينُه

Imam Abu AbdAllah(as) said, ‘Salat (prayer) does not come into being until one’s nose touches what his forehead has touched.’”(Shia books, Al-kafi, vol 3, page 334; Wasa’el ashi’a, Vol 4, Section: the obligation to touch forehead, both hands, both knees and both great toes to the ground, and put the nose firmly on the ground (highly recommended) and some of prostration rules.)

Authenticated by:
Yusuf Al-Bahrani in Al-Hada’iq Al-Nadhira 4/344-345
Al-Waheed Al-Bahbahani in Masabeeh Al-Thalam 8/49-51
Al-Tabtaba’ee Al-Ha’iree in Riyadh Al-Masa’el 3/225
Abu Qasim Al-Qummi in Ghana’im Al-Ayam 2/621
Ahmad Al-Kashani in Mustanad Al-Shia 3/440
Mohammad Hasan Al-Najafi in Jawahir Al-Kalam 5/199
Al-Tabtaba’ee in Mustamsak Al-Urwat Al-Wuthqa 4/407
Abdula’ala Al-Sabzawari in Muhathab Al-Ahkam 4/411
Murtadha Bani Fadhl in Madarik Tahreer Al-Waseela 1/548
Al-Majlisi I in Rawdhat Al-Mutaqeen 2/183.

[muslim720]

^ I have that narration waiting for him here: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-discussion/shiachat-is-back!!!/msg12692/#new

Along with these which ShiaPen quotes....not knowing that they do more damage than good (to their cause).

“The Prophet (s) had the sign of Mud on his forehead and Nose, due to prostration on Mud”. (Sunan Abu Dawud)

“From Umm Attiya it is narrated that the Salat of one who does not place his nose right on the EARTH is not accepted”. (Kanz Ul Ammal Vol 7 Tradition No. 19804)

The Prophet (saw) said, “There is no prayer for the one whose nose does not feel as much of the ground as the forehead". (Daaraqutni, Tabaraani (3/140/1) & Abu Nu`aim in Akhbaar Isbahaan)

[ShiaMan]

Oh, at the corner of where Shiaism meets logic?  Gotcha!  Isn't there a cellar or hiding cave there as well?

So we agree that Shia and Logic meet. Can't say the same for you though bro.

Your "different rulings" have been refuted long ago and I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.

one of your brethren provided the video, not me.

Let us proceed step-by-step.  The Shia, as you have mentioned, "already knows" to prostrate on turbah.  Then what is the point of having pamphlets (in Shia mosques) trying to establish the practice from our books?  It is to say to the few Sunnis (who happen to drop by) that we (Shias) are right and you (Sunnis) do not even know what is in your own texts.  Is that not a mockery?

or it could simply mean that we are telling the Sunni brothers that dont judge the turbah until you have read that it is okay to do so and you dont have to but we choose to. Where is the mockery?

It sure does!  A religion (Islam) deeply rooted in monotheism has a sect which restricts prayer to having an object (clay, paper, whatever) for prostration thereby introducing elements of polytheism to it.  Either the religion is not quite monotheistic or the sect is misguided (in this issue).  I like to think it is the latter.

Didnt you previously agree that this is no shirk? I think your simple mind does not grasp the concept that praying ON something is different from praying TO something. By that token, you worship carpet???

Let us not talk about stupidity until you have brought forth a fatwa from your own scholars declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef.  Oh, I'm sorry, you already said you cannot.  And as I said earlier, I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.  Must be very hard for someone like yourself, who takes the verdicts of Ayatollah Sistani (who deems clothes not fit for prostration whereas the Prophet [saw] never forbade anyone from doing so) over the sunnah of the Prophet [saw], to comprehend this point.

I cant provide a source where our marajae tell us to breath to live, eat to live, etc. Speaking of Sunnah, did he pray on straw mats or plush carpets?

We read in Shia hadeeth:

أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع يَقُولُ لَا صَلَاةَ لِمَنْ لَمْ يُصِبْ أَنْفُهُ مَا يُصِيبُ جَبِينُه

Imam Abu AbdAllah(as) said, ‘Salat (prayer) does not come into being until one’s nose touches what his forehead has touched.’”(Shia books, Al-kafi, vol 3, page 334; Wasa’el ashi’a, Vol 4, Section: the obligation to touch forehead, both hands, both knees and both great toes to the ground, and put the nose firmly on the ground (highly recommended) and some of prostration rules.)

Authenticated by:
Yusuf Al-Bahrani in Al-Hada’iq Al-Nadhira 4/344-345
Al-Waheed Al-Bahbahani in Masabeeh Al-Thalam 8/49-51
Al-Tabtaba’ee Al-Ha’iree in Riyadh Al-Masa’el 3/225
Abu Qasim Al-Qummi in Ghana’im Al-Ayam 2/621
Ahmad Al-Kashani in Mustanad Al-Shia 3/440
Mohammad Hasan Al-Najafi in Jawahir Al-Kalam 5/199
Al-Tabtaba’ee in Mustamsak Al-Urwat Al-Wuthqa 4/407
Abdula’ala Al-Sabzawari in Muhathab Al-Ahkam 4/411
Murtadha Bani Fadhl in Madarik Tahreer Al-Waseela 1/548
Al-Majlisi I in Rawdhat Al-Mutaqeen 2/183.

highly recommended - that's all I have been saying so thanks for the quote.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

highly recommended - that's all I have been saying so thanks for the quote.

You stick to the name of the chapter, instead of what your Imam said. Your Imam says:

Salat (prayer) does not come into being until one’s nose touches what his forehead has touched.

[muslim720]

So we agree that Shia and Logic meet. Can't say the same for you though bro.

Of course you can't say that for me because my logic supersedes yours.  By default, your logic sees mine as a threat and as is customary, you smear that which what you cannot explain (or comprehend).  I thought you would see the sarcasm in my comment (hint: cellar, hiding cave).

Didnt you previously agree that this is no shirk?

I did but seeing how you have evaded all counter-rebuttals we have put forth, I have decided to speak with you on your (low) level, using your approach.

By that token, you worship carpet???

I have not declared sajdah (therefore prayers) invalid if not performed on carpet.  You, on the other hand, argue that sajdah is invalid if not made on soil (especially from Karbala).  See the difference? 

The whole "but you can also use paper" argument is pathetic.  Cotton is far more natural than paper yet you reject it knowing that the Prophet [saw] never forbade anyone from prostrating on their clothing.

I cant provide a source where our marajae tell us to breath to live, eat to live, etc.

Fatwa (declaring kufr upon those who believe in tahreef) or nothing.  Do not try to run away from the point.  Actually, you already admitted that you cannot find such a fatwa.