TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Adil on March 23, 2020, 08:00:42 PM
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Asalaamualaykum
I came across this today.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070202205718/http://www.alseraj.net/ar/fikh/2/?ohJCgBXYrO1075094893&61&90&3
Question 85:
the question:
Is it true that the second caliph married the daughter of Imam Ali, peace be upon him?
Fatwa:
This is how it was reported in history and narrations.
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Asalaamualaykum
I came across this today.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070202205718/http://www.alseraj.net/ar/fikh/2/?ohJCgBXYrO1075094893&61&90&3
Question 85:
the question:
Is it true that the second caliph married the daughter of Imam Ali, peace be upon him?
Fatwa:
This is how it was reported in history and narrations.
Diplomatic answer, sistani can't dare speak in unambiguous terms
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Asalaamualaykum
I came across this today.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070202205718/http://www.alseraj.net/ar/fikh/2/?ohJCgBXYrO1075094893&61&90&3
Question 85:
the question:
Is it true that the second caliph married the daughter of Imam Ali, peace be upon him?
Fatwa:
This is how it was reported in history and narrations.
Well you've got to look at the facts. How old was Umar when he married her. And how old was she. When did the marriage take place and who read the nikah. These things should be open and known if this marriage took place. And how may examples do we see of someone the age of a grandfather marrying someone of the age of a granddaughter.
It is said that both Abu Bakr and Umar asked the Prophet s.a.w for Fatimah's hand in marriage. But the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". Now Fatimah became the mother of Qalsoom who was born years after Fatimah got married. And I'm sure Qalsoom has older siblings as well.
One needs to look at the bigger picture by gathering all the facts. Then you can get to the bottom of things. Most people don't believe in this tale. They believe that tales like this and many more were created by others just to show that things were good between the Shaykhain and the Ahlul Bayt. But history tells us a different story. And tales like these are have bern created just as a counter argument to challenge facts which some find bitter.
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Well you've got to look at the facts. How old was Umar when he married her. And how old was she. When did the marriage take place and who read the nikah. These things should be open and known if this marriage took place. And how may examples do we see of someone the age of a grandfather marrying someone of the age of a granddaughter.
It is said that both Abu Bakr and Umar asked the Prophet s.a.w for Fatimah's hand in marriage. But the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". Now Fatimah became the mother of Qalsoom who was born years after Fatimah got married. And I'm sure Qalsoom has older siblings as well.
What?
1) How old were the Prophet (saw) and Aisha when they got married?
2) You asked who read the nikah? Do you have that kind of details for all of Ali's marriages? Or the details of all of your imams' marriages?
One needs to look at the bigger picture by gathering all the facts. Then you can get to the bottom of things. Most people don't believe in this tale. They believe that tales like this and many more were created by others just to show that things were good between the Shaykhain and the Ahlul Bayt. But history tells us a different story. And tales like these are have bern created just as a counter argument to challenge facts which some find bitter.
Nobody challenged the nikah took place. Not until 5 AH.
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Well you've got to look at the facts. How old was Umar when he married her. And how old was she. When did the marriage take place and who read the nikah. These things should be open and known if this marriage took place. And how may examples do we see of someone the age of a grandfather marrying someone of the age of a granddaughter.
It is said that both Abu Bakr and Umar asked the Prophet s.a.w for Fatimah's hand in marriage. But the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". Now Fatimah became the mother of Qalsoom who was born years after Fatimah got married. And I'm sure Qalsoom has older siblings as well.
One needs to look at the bigger picture by gathering all the facts. Then you can get to the bottom of things. Most people don't believe in this tale. They believe that tales like this and many more were created by others just to show that things were good between the Shaykhain and the Ahlul Bayt. But history tells us a different story. And tales like these are have bern created just as a counter argument to challenge facts which some find bitter.
Iceman have you obliged upon yourself to speak nonsense on every thread .
Al khomayni says one can marry a suckling babe even
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Proof here, he says ok placing privates between thighs of suckling babe
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Well you've got to look at the facts. How old was Umar when he married her. And how old was she. When did the marriage take place and who read the nikah. These things should be open and known if this marriage took place. And how may examples do we see of someone the age of a grandfather marrying someone of the age of a granddaughter.
It is said that both Abu Bakr and Umar asked the Prophet s.a.w for Fatimah's hand in marriage. But the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". Now Fatimah became the mother of Qalsoom who was born years after Fatimah got married. And I'm sure Qalsoom has older siblings as well.
One needs to look at the bigger picture by gathering all the facts. Then you can get to the bottom of things. Most people don't believe in this tale. They believe that tales like this and many more were created by others just to show that things were good between the Shaykhain and the Ahlul Bayt. But history tells us a different story. And tales like these are have bern created just as a counter argument to challenge facts which some find bitter.
I think Sistani knows more about facts than you when it comes to this issue.
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I think Sistani knows more about facts than you when it comes to this issue.
😀 Ok, then please ask him and let me know. 😊 You've got your mind set on believing this tale that it was the daughter of Fatima and Ali. The mother of the daughter (fatima) was too young for him (Umar) when he asked for her hand in marriage. But when Fatima got married and had 4 children then her daughter (Qalsoom) was old enough for him (Umar). 😊 When did this marriage take place, who read the nikah and what we're their ages. 😊 I'm sure you'll be able to pick this up from his excellence Sistani and then have the courage to discuss the matter with me. 😊
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I'm putting this forward that I came across. You tell me what you think and make of it. Lets get to the bottom of this tale.
Is there a hadith about the daughter of Imam Ali (As) who was asked in marriage by the second caliph Umar? Did a marriage take place at all?
Answer
Bismillah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem
The short answer to this question is yes there are hadiths that attempt to suggest that Umar bin al-Khattaab asked for the daughter of Imam Ali (AS). The hadiths that are reported in such sunny hadith books as the book of al-Estee'aab by Ibn Abd-el-Birr, the book of Taareekh Baghdaad by al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi, and the book of al-Esaabah by Ibn Hajar are quite clearly false and un-authentic; not only on the basis of the narrators of the hadiths, but also on the basis of the content of the hadiths.
In one hadith "Umar asks Imam Ali (AS) for his daughter in marriage, and Imam Ali (AS) asks him to leave and then Imam Ali asks his daughter to go to Umar, and when she arrives Umar asks her to marry him, and places his hand on her leg and uncovers her leg!!!!!! She immediately says to him you do this to me! If you were not the ruler I would have broken your nose. And she leaves the room. She tells Imam Ali of what happened and added 'You sent me to a vile old man.' But Ali nevertheless marries her to him!" al-Estee'aab 4/1954.
In another hadith "Umar asks Imam Ali (AS) for his daughter in marriage, and Imam Ali (AS) asks him to leave and then Imam Ali asks his daughter to make herself beautiful to go to Umar!!! And when Umar saw her he placed his hand on her leg and asked her to marry him . . . when she came back to her father Imam Ali asked her what did Umar tell you, she replied Umar kissed me and placed his hand on my leg and asked me to marry him. Then Ali married her to him!!!!!" Taareekh Baghdaad 6/182.
Ibn Hajar reports in his book al-Esaabah that "Umar asks Imam Ali (AS) for his daughter Umm Kolthum (AS) in marriage, and Imam Ali (AS) asks him to leave and then Imam Ali asks his daughter to go to Umar, and when she arrives Umar placed his hand on her leg and uncovers her leg!!!!!! The daughter of Imam Ali (AS) says to him if you were not the ruler I would have gouged your eyes . . . ." al-Esaabah 4/321.
If the above narrations are true then the behaviour of Umar according to such hadiths has been so fouls and abhorrent that many sunny scholars have been put to shame. Because such behaviour is not only disgraceful, but it is also totally haram according to Islam. One of the top sunny scholars, Ibn Jawzey, states in his book "Tathkirat Khawas al-Ummah" p 321: "And by Allah this is vile and despicable, even if she was a slave Umar may not have done this to her, and furthermore in accordance with the unanimous consensus of the scholars of the Muslims, the touching of a non-Mahram is not allowed, then how this hadith can be attributed to Umar?"
As you can see these hadiths are totally false and any respectable and honourable Muslim would not send his daughter to the house of another man or agree to such abhorrent behaviour let alone agreeing to marrying his daughter. These hadiths have been placed by the enemies of Imam Ali (AS) and the enemies of the Ahl-ul-Bayt (AS) in order to demean Imam Ali and his household (AS) and give some status to Umar. Such a marriage certainly did not take place at all.
Imam Ali, the son of Abi Talib (peace be upon them), had two daughters from Lady Fatimah al-Zahra' peace be upon her, the beloved daughter of the holy Prophet Muhammad may Allah bless him and his pure family. They were Zaynab and Umm_Kolthoum peace be upon them.
Lady Zaynab married her cousin Abdullah the son of Ja'far ibn Abi_Talib - also known as Ja'far al-Tayyar. Ja'far al-Tayyar, who on the orders of the prophet headed the Muslims who migrated to Abyssinia , is the brother of Imam Ali peace be upon them.
Lady Umm_Kolthoum married her cousin Muhammad/Sa'id the son of Aqeel ibn Abi_Talib. Aqeel ibn Abi Talib is the elder brother of Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib.
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Umm Kulthoom was the second daughter of ‘Ali and Fatimah, and the youngets of their four children. She was born in about the year 6 AH. She became of marriagable age during the khilafah of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab, and the khalifah asked for her hand in marriage. This is recorded by Ibn Sa‘d in his work at-Tabaqat al-Kubra (vol. 8 p. 338, ed. Muhammad ‘Ab al-Qadir ‘Ata, Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah, Beirut 1990).
OK, why didn't Umar ask for the elder daughter's had in marriage, Zaynab? Was he waiting for another one to be born? Or did he want to get a bit more older before he could ask Ali for a hand in marriage?
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Any thoughts lads
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Any thoughts lads
What do you make of this lads.
so many times I hear Sunni’s come forth and say that Umm Kulthum(as), daughter of Imam Ali(as) was married to Omar. Wrong!!! Let me set the record straight now, incase you were misinformed by your politician of a Sheikh. She was NOT married to him, here Husband was Aun bin Ja’far, who was the son of Imam Ali’s(as) brother. Mathematically it can be proven that she was not married to Omar. According to the politicians, Umm Kulthum and Omar ibn al-Khattab were married in the year 17 Hijri, when Umm Kulthum was 4 or 5 years old. That means she would have been born around the year 12 or 13 Hijri. So you mean Imam Ali(as) allowed his daughter to marry at 4 or 5 years old? Wow, anything to try to justify their idols. Anyways, now we expose these liars. If the Prophet Muhammad(saw) died in the year 11 Hijri, and Fatimah al-Zahra(as) died 6 months later, how in the world could Umm Kuthum(as) have been born after the death of her Mother(as). Even Sahih Bukhari confirms she died 6 months later. Sahih Bukhari:Volume:5 Book:59 Hadith:546.
Next they mark her(as) death in 50 Hijir, but how is that possible when she was present in Karbala when Imam Hussein(as) was martyred in the year 61 Hijri. Yes, she remarried her cousin Abdullah ibn Jafar ibn Abu Talib, after the death of her sister Zeinab(as), who was married to him before her. But that’s it, that is the only two times she married so what the are these politicians talking about. So just who did Omar marry……… Umm Kalthum bint Abu bakr. Let me explain so it all makes sense.
Omar did not just have one wife named umm Kulthum, he had a total of FIVE wives by that name.
Umm Kulthum bint Jarwila Khizima, Umm Kulthum bint Uqba, Umm Kulthum bint Rahab, Umm Kulthum bint Asim, and then finally Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr.
She was born after the death of her father in the year 13 hijri, her mother is Asma bint Umays. She was pregnant with her when Abu Bakr died. They also had one more child before her, guess who, Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. A true companion of Imam Ali(as). So just how did she get the title bint Ali. If you clicked on her mothers name, you would have read a brief bio on her and put two and two together, but I will explain it anyway’s. Asma bint Umays Married Imam Ali(as) after the death of Abu bakr. Imam Ali(as) loved Muhammad ibn Abu bakr very much. So he married his mother shortly to take him in as his own. Son naturally Imam Ali(as) moved them into his home. Now if you do the math that was done earlier on this Umm Kulthum, it works out according to the Sunni hadith.
Also note: Omar did not go to Imam Ali(as) to ask for her hand but he sent word to Aisha, her older sister, and she accepted. So in conclusion Umm Kulthum(as) bint Imam Ali(as) did NOT marry Omar.
What do you make of the above.
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Ice man
I told you ,you have made fard upon yourself to speak whatever nonsense you can.instead of clarifying what sistani says ,he goes as skullduggery of sunni books .
In any case :
How do you explain the ahadith in al kafi which are authentic on this subject
http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/12/umars-marriage-to-umm-kulthum.html?m=1
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Ice man
I told you ,you have made fard upon yourself to speak whatever nonsense you can.instead of clarifying what sistani says ,he goes as skullduggery of sunni books .
In any case :
How do you explain the ahadith in al kafi which are authentic on this subject
http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/12/umars-marriage-to-umm-kulthum.html?m=1
It seems to me that you don't like discussing things. Al Kafi or Sistani, why is it that you just go around picking up one bit or piece from one book or just one scholar and try to justify that as the entire belief of the Shia community or the entire Shia belief and faith just depends on that bit and piece since it suits you and goes with your mindset.
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It seems to me that you don't like discussing things. Al Kafi or Sistani, why is it that you just go around picking up one bit or piece from one book or just one scholar and try to justify that as the entire belief of the Shia community or the entire Shia belief and faith just depends on that bit and piece since it suits you and goes with your mindset.
If authentic ahadith from masoomeen doesn't constitute evidence for you i wonder what else does?
Listen sistani is a giant scholar he says marraige did occur
Khoei the legend scholar as per Shia ,he say yes
Fadlullaha of lebonan says a yes
I can also bring classical scholar testimonies only if you seeked truth
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I'm putting this forward that I came across. You tell me what you think and make of it. Lets get to the bottom of this tale.
Is there a hadith about the daughter of Imam Ali (As) who was asked in marriage by the second caliph Umar? Did a marriage take place at all?
Answer
Bismillah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem
The short answer to this question is yes there are hadiths that attempt to suggest that Umar bin al-Khattaab asked for the daughter of Imam Ali (AS). The hadiths that are reported in such sunny hadith books as the book of al-Estee'aab by Ibn Abd-el-Birr, the book of Taareekh Baghdaad by al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi, and the book of al-Esaabah by Ibn Hajar are quite clearly false and un-authentic; not only on the basis of the narrators of the hadiths, but also on the basis of the content of the hadiths.
In one hadith "Umar asks Imam Ali (AS) for his daughter in marriage, and Imam Ali (AS) asks him to leave and then Imam Ali asks his daughter to go to Umar, and when she arrives Umar asks her to marry him, and places his hand on her leg and uncovers her leg!!!!!! She immediately says to him you do this to me! If you were not the ruler I would have broken your nose. And she leaves the room. She tells Imam Ali of what happened and added 'You sent me to a vile old man.' But Ali nevertheless marries her to him!" al-Estee'aab 4/1954.
In another hadith "Umar asks Imam Ali (AS) for his daughter in marriage, and Imam Ali (AS) asks him to leave and then Imam Ali asks his daughter to make herself beautiful to go to Umar!!! And when Umar saw her he placed his hand on her leg and asked her to marry him . . . when she came back to her father Imam Ali asked her what did Umar tell you, she replied Umar kissed me and placed his hand on my leg and asked me to marry him. Then Ali married her to him!!!!!" Taareekh Baghdaad 6/182.
Ibn Hajar reports in his book al-Esaabah that "Umar asks Imam Ali (AS) for his daughter Umm Kolthum (AS) in marriage, and Imam Ali (AS) asks him to leave and then Imam Ali asks his daughter to go to Umar, and when she arrives Umar placed his hand on her leg and uncovers her leg!!!!!! The daughter of Imam Ali (AS) says to him if you were not the ruler I would have gouged your eyes . . . ." al-Esaabah 4/321.
If the above narrations are true then the behaviour of Umar according to such hadiths has been so fouls and abhorrent that many sunny scholars have been put to shame. Because such behaviour is not only disgraceful, but it is also totally haram according to Islam. One of the top sunny scholars, Ibn Jawzey, states in his book "Tathkirat Khawas al-Ummah" p 321: "And by Allah this is vile and despicable, even if she was a slave Umar may not have done this to her, and furthermore in accordance with the unanimous consensus of the scholars of the Muslims, the touching of a non-Mahram is not allowed, then how this hadith can be attributed to Umar?"
As you can see these hadiths are totally false and any respectable and honourable Muslim would not send his daughter to the house of another man or agree to such abhorrent behaviour let alone agreeing to marrying his daughter. These hadiths have been placed by the enemies of Imam Ali (AS) and the enemies of the Ahl-ul-Bayt (AS) in order to demean Imam Ali and his household (AS) and give some status to Umar. Such a marriage certainly did not take place at all.
Imam Ali, the son of Abi Talib (peace be upon them), had two daughters from Lady Fatimah al-Zahra' peace be upon her, the beloved daughter of the holy Prophet Muhammad may Allah bless him and his pure family. They were Zaynab and Umm_Kolthoum peace be upon them.
Lady Zaynab married her cousin Abdullah the son of Ja'far ibn Abi_Talib - also known as Ja'far al-Tayyar. Ja'far al-Tayyar, who on the orders of the prophet headed the Muslims who migrated to Abyssinia , is the brother of Imam Ali peace be upon them.
Lady Umm_Kolthoum married her cousin Muhammad/Sa'id the son of Aqeel ibn Abi_Talib. Aqeel ibn Abi Talib is the elder brother of Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib.
The part of unveiling the leg which you build your whole argument upon is weak.
Albani (r.a) in silsilaha sahihia says ,this part reachs us through three chains
Ist chain :
إبراهيم بن مهران بن رستم المروزي : حدثنا الليث بن سعد القيسي - هو مولى بني رفاعة في سنة إحدى و سبعين و مائة بمصر - عن موسى بن علي بن رباح اللخمي عن أبيه عن عقبة بن عامر قال :
The claimity with the ist chain is ibraheem Ibn mehran bin rustum bin marwazi
And he is majhool ( unknown)
Second chain
جعفر بن محمد عن أبيه ( زاد بعضهم : عن علي بن الحسين"
So the chain terminates at Ali ibn Hussain and there is a gap between him and umar (r.a) as well as him and um kulthum (r.a)
So their is a discontinuity in the narration (inqita) and hence weak
Third chain
أبي جعفر محمد بن علي بن الحسين الباقر قال : قال عمر ...
This one is from son of Ali bin Hussain
I-e imam baqir
Who says Umar said thus two narrators are.missing from this one so again weak .
http://carihadis.com/Silsilah_Shahihah_Albani/2036
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Now we get you authentic Sunni ahadith
Which prove the marraige beyond doubt and i am translating the article of zubair Ali zai (r.a) from urdu for this
1.Narrated Tha`laba bin Abi Malik: `Umar bin Al-Khattab distributed some garments amongst the women of Medina. One good garment remained, and one of those present with him said, O chief of the believers! Give this garment to your wife, the (grand) daughter of Allah's Apostle. They meant Um Kulthum, the daughter of `Ali. `Umar said, Um Salit has more right (to have it). Um Salit was amongst those Ansari women who had given the pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle.' `Umar said, She (i.e. Um Salit) used to carry the water skins for us on the day of Uhud.
(Al Bukhari no 2881)
2.ووضعت جنازۃ ام کلثوم بنت علی امراۃ عمر بن الخطاب و ابن لھا یقال لہ زید۔۔"
And umm kulthum (r.a) bint Ali (r.a) funeral was placed ,and with it was placed (for) funeral her son who was called zaid
سنن النسائی 71-72/4 حدیث 1980، و سندہ صحیح
3.عن ابن عمر انہ صلی علی اخیہ و امہ ام کلثوم بنت علی۔۔۔
Ibn Umar (r.a) (lead) the funeral prayer of his mother umm kulthum bint Ali and his brother (zaid )
مسند علی بن الجعد: 593 و سندہ صحیح،
4.4۔ عبداللہ البہی رحمہ اللہ (تابعی صدوق) سے روایت ہے کہ :
"شھدت ابن عمر صلی علیٰ ام کلثوم و زید بن عمر بن الخطاب
Abdullah ibn bayah (a sudook or thiqa ) tabiee says i witnessed ibn Umar(r.a) (lead) the funeral prayer of umm kulthum and zaid ibn Umar al khattab
ابن سعد 468/8 و سندہ حسن
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What do you make of this lads.
so many times I hear Sunni’s come forth and say that Umm Kulthum(as), daughter of Imam Ali(as) was married to Omar. Wrong!!! Let me set the record straight now, incase you were misinformed by your politician of a Sheikh. She was NOT married to him, here Husband was Aun bin Ja’far, who was the son of Imam Ali’s(as) brother. Mathematically it can be proven that she was not married to Omar. According to the politicians, Umm Kulthum and Omar ibn al-Khattab were married in the year 17 Hijri, when Umm Kulthum was 4 or 5 years old. That means she would have been born around the year 12 or 13 Hijri. So you mean Imam Ali(as) allowed his daughter to marry at 4 or 5 years old? Wow, anything to try to justify their idols. Anyways, now we expose these liars. If the Prophet Muhammad(saw) died in the year 11 Hijri, and Fatimah al-Zahra(as) died 6 months later, how in the world could Umm Kuthum(as) have been born after the death of her Mother(as). Even Sahih Bukhari confirms she died 6 months later. Sahih Bukhari:Volume:5 Book:59 Hadith:546.
Next they mark her(as) death in 50 Hijir, but how is that possible when she was present in Karbala when Imam Hussein(as) was martyred in the year 61 Hijri. Yes, she remarried her cousin Abdullah ibn Jafar ibn Abu Talib, after the death of her sister Zeinab(as), who was married to him before her. But that’s it, that is the only two times she married so what the are these politicians talking about. So just who did Omar marry……… Umm Kalthum bint Abu bakr. Let me explain so it all makes sense.
Omar did not just have one wife named umm Kulthum, he had a total of FIVE wives by that name.
Umm Kulthum bint Jarwila Khizima, Umm Kulthum bint Uqba, Umm Kulthum bint Rahab, Umm Kulthum bint Asim, and then finally Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr.
She was born after the death of her father in the year 13 hijri, her mother is Asma bint Umays. She was pregnant with her when Abu Bakr died. They also had one more child before her, guess who, Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. A true companion of Imam Ali(as). So just how did she get the title bint Ali. If you clicked on her mothers name, you would have read a brief bio on her and put two and two together, but I will explain it anyway’s. Asma bint Umays Married Imam Ali(as) after the death of Abu bakr. Imam Ali(as) loved Muhammad ibn Abu bakr very much. So he married his mother shortly to take him in as his own. Son naturally Imam Ali(as) moved them into his home. Now if you do the math that was done earlier on this Umm Kulthum, it works out according to the Sunni hadith.
Also note: Omar did not go to Imam Ali(as) to ask for her hand but he sent word to Aisha, her older sister, and she accepted. So in conclusion Umm Kulthum(as) bint Imam Ali(as) did NOT marry Omar.
What do you make of the above.
The number game doesn't avail anything
Question: regarding age of umm kulthum (r.a)at marraige
Answer:
It is permissible to propose to a young girl, even a baby girl, and her father has the right to unite her in wedlock, but her husband is not allowed to have sexual intercourse with her until she is mature. In the collections of Al-Bukhari and Muslim, it is narrated from 'Aa'ishah, may Allaah pleased with her, who said that "the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) joined me in marriage when I was seven years old and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine years old." This is the wording of Muslim.
According to biographers like Ibn 'Abd al-Baarr may Allaah have mercy upon him in his book Al-Istee'ab and Ibn Hajar may Allaah have mercy upon him in Al-Isaabah, Umar ibn Al-Khattaab may Allaah be pleased with him proposed to Umm Kulthum, the daughter of 'Ali may Allaah be pleased with him but 'Ali may Allaah be pleased with him replied, "She is still young." Then Umar may Allaah be pleased with him proposed to her again, whereupon Ali may Allaah be pleased with him said, "I will send for her and if she accepts, she is your wife." Then, Ali may Allaah be pleased with him sent her to Umar may Allaah be pleased with him who unveiled her leg. She said, "Stop this! If you were not the Leader of the Believers, I would beat you."
Thus, Umar may Allaah be pleased with him accepted her as his wife and no narration stated her exact age. However, there is a discontinuity in the chain of narration and thus it is inauthentic as stated by Shaykh Al-Albaani may Allaah have mercy upon him.no narration stated her exact age. However, there is a discontinuity in the chain of narration and thus it is inauthentic as stated by Shaykh Al-Albaani may Allaah have mercy upon him.
Allaah Knows best
https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/85645/age-of-umm-kulthum-when-she-married-umar-may-allaah-be-pleased-with-him
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Ice man asks
.so many times I hear Sunni’s come forth and say that Umm Kulthum(as), daughter of Imam Ali(as) was married to Omar. Wrong!!! Let me set the record straight now, incase you were misinformed by your politician of a Sheikh. She was NOT married to him, here Husband was Aun bin Ja’far, who was the son of Imam Ali’s(as) brother. Mathematically it can be proven that she was not married to Omar. According to the politicians, Umm Kulthum and Omar ibn al-Khattab were married in the year 17 Hijri, when Umm Kulthum was 4 or 5 years old. That means she would have been born around the year 12 or 13 Hijri. So you mean Imam Ali(as) allowed his daughter to marry at 4 or 5 years old? Wow, anything to try to justify their idols. Anyways, now we expose these liars. If the Prophet Muhammad(saw) died in the year 11 Hijri, and Fatimah al-Zahra(as) died 6 months later, how in the world could Umm Kuthum(as) have been born after the death of her Mother(as). Even Sahih Bukhari confirms she died 6 months later. Sahih Bukhari:Volume:5 Book:59 Hadith:546.
Ice man answers
.Umm Kulthoom was the second daughter of ‘Ali and Fatimah, and the youngets of their four children. She was born in about the year 6 AH. She became of marriagable age during the khilafah of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab, and the khalifah asked for her hand in marriage. This is recorded by Ibn Sa‘d in his work at-Tabaqat al-Kubra (vol. 8 p. 338, ed. Muhammad ‘Ab al-Qadir ‘Ata, Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah, Beirut 1990).
Any admins reading this exchange please take note of this
.Wow, anything to try to justify their idols
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. Next they mark her(as) death in 50 Hijir, but how is that possible when she was present in Karbala when Imam Hussein(as) was martyred in the year 61 Hijri. Yes, she remarried her cousin Abdullah ibn Jafar ibn Abu Talib, after the death of her sister Zeinab(as), who was married to him before her. But that’s it, that is the only two times she married so what the are these politicians talking about. So just who did Omar marry……… Umm Kalthum bint Abu bakr. Let me explain so it all makes sense.
Omar did not just have one wife named umm Kulthum, he had a total of FIVE wives by that name.
Umm Kulthum bint Jarwila Khizima, Umm Kulthum bint Uqba, Umm Kulthum bint Rahab, Umm Kulthum bint Asim, and then finally Umm Kulthum bint Abu Bakr.
She was born after the death of her father in the year 13 hijri, her mother is Asma bint Umays. She was pregnant with her when Abu Bakr died. They also had one more child before her, guess who, Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. A true companion of Imam Ali(as). So just how did she get the title bint Ali. If you clicked on her mothers name, you would have read a brief bio on her and put two and two together, but I will explain it anyway’s. Asma bint Umays Married Imam Ali(as) after the death of Abu bakr. Imam Ali(as) loved Muhammad ibn Abu bakr very much. So he married his mother shortly to take him in as his own. Son naturally Imam Ali(as) moved them into his home. Now if you do the math that was done earlier on this Umm Kulthum, it works out according to the Sunni hadith.
Also note: Omar did not go to Imam Ali(as) to ask for her hand but he sent word to Aisha, her older sister, and she accepted. So in conclusion Umm Kulthum(as) bint Imam Ali(as) did NOT marry Omar.
No refrence so who cares
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If authentic ahadith from masoomeen doesn't constitute evidence for you i wonder what else does?
Listen sistani is a giant scholar he says marraige did occur
Khoei the legend scholar as per Shia ,he say yes
Fadlullaha of lebonan says a yes
I can also bring classical scholar testimonies only if you seeked truth
"If authentic ahadith from masoomeen doesn't constitute evidence for you i wonder what else does?"
You're completely missing the point here. Let me explain. It's not about this or that scholar or this and that scholar, it's about the opinion of the majority of the scholars. That's the point. Because scholars do and have differed in opinion over matters and affairs. So the tale of the marriage between Umar and the youngest daughter of Ali Ibn Abi Talib is not accepted and believed by vast majority of the Shia community and its scholars.
The Shia belief and faith doesn't depend on a fatwa or statement of one or two scholars or bits and pieces from a book written by a shia scholar. Nor is that to be labelled as the view of the Shia community at large.
"Listen sistani is a giant scholar he says marraige did occur Khoei the legend scholar as per Shia ,he say yes
Fadlullaha of lebonan says a yes"
I'm listening and I don't disagree with the above. And I have a lot of respect for the above mentioned scholars. But that doesn't mean one has to believe in and accept opinion/s of a scholar/s based on historical or political matters or current affairs. Ahkaam e Shariah and matters concerning usool e deen and faroo e deen, yes, but personal opinion or view based on historical or political matters or current affairs, no. It's not necessary.
"I can also bring classical scholar testimonies only if you seeked truth"
Yes I do seek the truth and always have. But everywhere and in every matter.
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Allow me to add to this. I use to follow Ayatollah Khomeini in matters of taqleed until his death in 1989. If I'm still correct and my memory is still good, Ayatollah Khomeini believed that there wasn't just one natural haqeeqy daughter of Muhammad s.a.w but actually four. Ayatollah Khomeini shared and believed in the opinion and view of the Ahle Sunnah.
Now this is totally opposite and against the opinion and view of the Shia community and scholars. They believe that Muhammad s.a.w only had one natural and haqeeqy daughter. And that is Fatima who was her only daughter.
Now if some Sunni comes along and says that the Prophet s.a.w had actually 4 natural haqeeqy daughters and puts forward the opinion of Ayatollah Khomeini and wants to show on that one opinion of a mighty shia scholar that the view of the entire Shia community is wrong about Muhammad s.a.w only having one natural haqeeqy daughter then would that be right?
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I asked
. If authentic ahadith from masoomeen doesn't constitute evidence for you i wonder what else does
Shia man responded we don't believe in opinions here and their . No my friend push aside your bias i am not talking about random cherry picked opinions. We are talking about ahadith of imams , denying them is denying Allah in your religion.
For the benifit of readers i am copying here ahadith and gradings from nadir Zaveri
. مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى وَ غَيْرُهُ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنِ النَّضْرِ بْنِ سُوَيْدٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ خَالِدٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع عَنِ امْرَأَةٍ تُوُفِّيَ زَوْجُهَا أَيْنَ تَعْتَدُّ فِي بَيْتِ زَوْجِهَا تَعْتَدُّ أَوْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ قَالَ بَلَى حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ ثُمَّ قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً ع لَمَّا مَاتَ عُمَرُ أَتَى أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَأَخَذَ بِيَدِهَا فَانْطَلَقَ بِهَا إِلَى بَيْتِهِ
From Sulaymaan bin Khaalid he said: “I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) about a woman whose husband dies, where should she do her `iddah, in the house of her husband, or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, wherever she wants”, then he (عليه السلام) said: “That `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 197
2. Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89
3. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696
حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ ابْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ وَ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْمَرْأَةِ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا أَ تَعْتَدُّ فِي بَيْتِهَا أَوْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ قَالَ بَلْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً ع لَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ عُمَرُ أَتَى أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَانْطَلَقَ بِهَا إِلَى بَيْتِهِ
From `Abd Allaah bin Sinaan and Mu`aawiyah bin `Ammaar from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): He said: I asked about the women whose husband dies, can she do her `iddah in her house or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “It is wherever she wants, that `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 2
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 199
2. Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq Kal-SaHeeH (Reliable like a SaHeeH (hadeeth))
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89
عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ وَ حَمَّادٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع فِي تَزْوِيجِ أُمِّ كُلْثُومٍ فَقَالَ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ فَرْجٌ غُصِبْنَاهُ
From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42
2. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696
Do you call this cherry picking ?
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Iceman says
. I'm listening and I don't disagree with the above. And I have a lot of respect for the above mentioned scholars. But that doesn't mean one has to believe in and accept opinion/s of a scholar/s based on historical or political matters or current affairs. Ahkaam e Shariah and matters concerning usool e deen and faroo e deen, yes, but personal opinion or view based on historical or political matters or current affairs, no. It's not necessary.
It isn't only these scholars many classical legends did believe in this marraige.
E.g as Nadir mentions in his article
I am copying the the two testimonies again here.
. .
و روى أن عمر تزوج أم كلثوم بنت على عليه السلام
“And it is narrated that `Umar married Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام)”
Source:
1. Al-Toosi, Al-MabsooT, vol. 4, pg. 272
Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa (d. 436 AH) has also commented on the marriage taking place in his book, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa. And here is what he said regarding the narration of “faraj being usurped from us”. He talks about the how it is “attested” in the SaHeeH narration from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام).
ويشهد بصحته ما روي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام
Source:
1. Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, pg. 148 - 150
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Here is another testimony i have some four to five more, just looking for scans before pass them on
Qazi nurullaha shustari says the marraige did occur
For now just focus on the key principle of dispute
If their exeists dispute between scholars we return to ahadith and they clearly decide the matter for us and we have seen above what ahadith say
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I asked Shia man responded we don't believe in opinions here and their . No my friend push aside your bias i am not talking about random cherry picked opinions. We are talking about ahadith of imams , denying them is denying Allah in your religion.
For the benifit of readers i am copying here ahadith and gradings from nadir Zaveri
Do you call this cherry picking ?
Another valid point I'd like to make here. And you're telling me that the Imams along with their families, relatives, friends, followers and supporters weren't facing persecution and lock down. They weren't facing house arrest or imprisoned. There were no torture or killings. There were no bans or limits on them to preach and teach or on freedom of speech and expression.
You accuse then and certain Shias believed that there was a period and time of silence, patience and tolerance based on taqqiyah and keeping a low profile, you sure that things weren't said or shown to be accepted then and in those days to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss of life and belongings.
People in those days turned Sunni and even kept names of their children based on the names of companions and the Prophet's s.a.w wives in taqqiyah to save themselves from persecution. People kept away from the Imams to again save themselves from persecution. That's why the Imams didn't have much support or to go by. People ruled and governed by heavy handed tactics and by means of violence and threatening behaviour especially towards the Ahle Baith and their followers and supporters.
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Here is another testimony i have some four to five more, just looking for scans before pass them on
Qazi nurullaha shustari says the marraige did occur
For now just focus on the key principle of dispute
If their exeists dispute between scholars we return to ahadith and they clearly decide the matter for us and we have seen above what ahadith say
Don't look at this through one eye only. Look at it from all sides. Is this the view of the vast majority of the Shia scholars and the community at large. That's what we need to look at. I have no problem if this marriage actually took place or with Umar ibn Al Khattab. Hadiths and narrations have been tampered with after the death of the Prophet s.a.w. There was a ban on hadiths. Some were either exaggerated or fabricated. And some were made up. Bukhari and Muslim rejected alot of hadiths due to them not being authentic or reliable. What does this tells us. That hadiths were being invented or messed about with by those in government and in charge.
Now tell me this why on earth was Fatima too young for Umar and Abu Bakr when they asked the Prophet s.a.w for her hand in marriage. But her 4th child wasn't. Why didn't Ali marry Zaynab who was older than Qalsoom to Umar. Or why didn't Umar ask Ali for Zaynab. When something is put forward or you come across look at it with sense and logic. Discuss it with logic and reason.
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Another valid point I'd like to make here. And you're telling me that the Imams along with their families, relatives, friends, followers and supporters weren't facing persecution and lock down. They weren't facing house arrest or imprisoned. There were no torture or killings. There were no bans or limits on them to preach and teach or on freedom of speech and expression.
You accuse then and certain Shias believed that there was a period and time of silence, patience and tolerance based on taqqiyah and keeping a low profile, you sure that things weren't said or shown to be accepted then and in those days to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss of life and belongings.
People in those days turned Sunni and even kept names of their children based on the names of companions and the Prophet's s.a.w wives in taqqiyah to save themselves from persecution. People kept away from the Imams to again save themselves from persecution. That's why the Imams didn't have much support or to go by. People ruled and governed by heavy handed tactics and by means of violence and threatening behaviour especially towards the Ahle Baith and their followers and supporters.
Nothing relevant
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Nothing relevant
It's relevant. And you know it. You just don't have an answer to it. I'm not just a debater but a technical debater. I turn things upside down and really examine them well.
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It's relevant. And you know it. You just don't have an answer to it. I'm not just a debater but a technical debater. I turn things upside down and really examine them well.
If it wasn't for you being much older than me i was to mock this. I really don't know the relevance please help me understanding the relevance of this quote be as brief as possible ,i have to address one more post of yours also
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If it wasn't for you being much older than me i was to mock this. I really don't know the relevance please help me understanding the relevance of this quote be as brief as possible ,i have to address one more post of yours also
Don't worry. You will start to learn and understand as we further discuss and engage on this.
Forget about mocking and take a look at this. I'm looking at it now and will examine the it.
https://youtu.be/TsOlJV0B3A0
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Don't worry. You will start to learn and understand as we further discuss and engage on this.
Forget about mocking and take a look at this. I'm looking at it now and will examine the it.
https://youtu.be/TsOlJV0B3A0
Not watching the video ,present the relevant points. Here ,i have answered all the website material you presented till now ,now i cant go after all the videos also.
Prove the relevance or your post else i may proceed
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.
Don't look at this through one eye only. Look at it from all sides. Is this the view of the vast majority of the Shia scholars and the community at large. That's what we need to look at. I have no problem if this marriage actually took place or with Umar ibn Al Khattab. Hadiths and narrations have been tampered with after the death of the Prophet s.a.w. There was a ban on hadiths. Some were either exaggerated or fabricated. And some were made up. Bukhari and Muslim rejected alot of hadiths due to them not being authentic or reliable. What does this tells us. That hadiths were being invented or messed about with by those in government and in charge.
Response we are only being consistent, we accept ahadith have weak strong and even fabrications in them
However your scholars have a system of gradation, and we just apply same here we are not suggesting anything new my friend.it is authentic on the same standards as you grade any other hadith through. If this isn't authentic then the whole hadith coarpse of shia also falls
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.Now tell me this why on earth was Fatima too . young for Umar and Abu Bakr when they asked the Prophet s.a.w for her hand in marriage. But her 4th child wasn't.
The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young .
1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w) did in this case If he finds convinient he may marry his daughter as early as he likes as rasoolullaha (s.a.w) married Aisha (r.a) ...
2. For this argument to be made ,you should be able to tell us age of Fatima (r.a) at the time of proposal and age of umm kulthum at the time of proposal
As we proved earlier the latter isn't know so falls your argument flat
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Not watching the video ,present the relevant points. Here ,i have answered all the website material you presented till now ,now i cant go after all the videos also.
Prove the relevance or your post else i may proceed
The video is about a lecture from the following manner.
Sayed Moustafa Al-Qazwini is an Islamic religious leader. Al-Qazwini can allegedly trace his lineage forty-two generations back to Muhammad. He is the son of Ayatollah Sayed Mortadha Al Qazwini and the brother of Sayed Hassan Al-Qazwini.
No ordinary individual or scholar here mate. And he is speaking about and addressing the exact and same subject related to this thread. Don't. Worry I'll post more references for you. I'll discuss all points and matters on this. We'll have it out. No worries.
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https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DTsOlJV0B3A0&ved=2ahUKEwiG7bqTmdnoAhVwRxUIHQvZD5IQwqsBMAN6BAgEEAQ&usg=AOvVaw1et8M4Dy5foz8L7n1REGeb
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DYzv6TAClBXE&ved=2ahUKEwirmePTmdnoAhVxQRUIHYt6DIsQwqsBMAV6BAgEEAo&usg=AOvVaw3t9vjl3D4NRIqCriOGxBSL
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D-uwNdRwZzng&ved=2ahUKEwi_0Mb8mdnoAhUVThUIHWotD7QQwqsBMAR6BAgEEAc&usg=AOvVaw1ZbwyPnbdAE3DdC0VJovvL
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The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young .
1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w) did in this case If he finds convinient he may marry his daughter as early as he likes as rasoolullaha (s.a.w) married Aisha (r.a) ...
2. For this argument to be made ,you should be able to tell us age of Fatima (r.a) at the time of proposal and age of umm kulthum at the time of proposal
As we proved earlier the latter isn't know so falls your argument flat
"The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"
Notice this bit,
"what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"
After this Fatimah got married. How many years after this. You do the maths. Then after getting married Fatimah had 4 children. Qalsoom was the youngest out of the 4. How long would this be. But she wasn't young for the same man Umar. Then another question pops up, Why didn't Umar ask for the elderly daughter Zaynab or get married to her. For heavens sake use some aql if nothing else. Bring some logic and reason to it than just believing in something blindly.
"1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w)"
If the father of Fatima withheld it for the reason given then there absolutely no question about Umar marrying the 4th child of Ali on the same grounds since there is a huge difference. Ali is Nafs e Rassool and wouldn't differ with the Prophet s.a.w. And the huge age and time gap doesn't even bring it into question let alone happen.
"he may marry his daughter as early as he likes as rasoolullaha (s.a.w) married Aisha (r.a) ..."
This is something we strongly disagree with as well. The Prophet s.a.w did not marry Aisha at that young age. These are fabricated stories that have been created and brought about by certain individuals and characters just to deem it permissible to marry young and under age girls.
"For this argument to be made ,you should be able to tell us age of Fatima (r.a) at the time of proposal and age of umm kulthum at the time of proposal
As we proved earlier the latter isn't know so falls your argument flat"
I'm glad you've said that. No it doesn't mate. Infact it falls on you. You believe this marriage took place. Yes. When did it take place. Who read the nikah. What was the age of Umar and Qalsoom binte Ali. Why did it take place. And why is this a disputed argument then between the Muslims. It falls on you mate. Would you like to adresss it where others have failed.
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. The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"
Notice this bit,
"what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"
After this Fatimah got married. How many years after this. You do the maths. Then after getting married Fatimah had 4 children. Qalsoom was the youngest out of the 4. How long would this be. But she wasn't young for the same man Umar. Then another question pops up, Why didn't Umar ask for the elderly daughter Zaynab or get married to her. For heavens sake use some aql if nothing else. Bring some logic and reason to it than just believing in something blindly.
"1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w)"
If the father of Fatima withheld it for the reason given then there absolutely no question about Umar marrying the 4th child of Ali on the same grounds since there is a huge difference. Ali is Nafs e Rassool and wouldn't differ with the Prophet s.a.w. And the huge age and time gap doesn't even bring it into question let alone happen.
Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige ages in shia madhab before we move further
Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe
With that out of way now we can talk about the narration
There are two ways looking at it
1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule .
2. Shia perspective:
They will reject bukhari hadith as fabrication
And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young fornand will still accuse sunnis of clutching to bits and pieces.
Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted ?
Is that present in your books ??
And your kind of interpretation of that was true ,why does your fiqh say otherwise as i have demonstrated above .
the maths you failed understanding the point Fatimah (r.a) if e.g dhe was 6 at the time of proposal , and her daughter was 12 at the time umar proposed (assuming) , so the argument that she was young and so must be her daughter is a nonsense.
.I'm glad you've said that. No it doesn't mate. Infact it falls on you. You believe this marriage took place. Yes. When did it take place. Who read the nikah. What was the age of Umar and Qalsoom binte Ali. Why did it take place. And why is this a disputed argument then between the Muslims. It falls on you mate. Would you like to adresss it where others have failed.
It isn't on me ,in which book of logic it is written that to affirm an event occurred ,one requires to know the age of all the characters taking part in the event?
May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?
We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry , we don't know what was his age then , does it mean they didn't marry
My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?
But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator
The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar whom they have been projecting his great enemy
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I'm not just a debater but a technical debater.
Yes, every Shi'i is a "technical" debater, motivated by their endless fables of one Imam (ra) or his representative refuting tens of Sunnis at once. When these "technical" debaters present themselves on a public platform, outside their echo chambers, they are more "vesical" than "technical" and get pissed on.
I turn things upside down and really examine them well.
If only you had some brain cells to have prevented you from making such an ignorant comment which you thought was a compliment. This is like saying, "I approach milk as being black and really examine it from there on".
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Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige ages in shia madhab before we move further
Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe
With that out of way now we can talk about the narration
There are two ways looking at it
1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule .
2. Shia perspective:
They will reject bukhari hadith as fabrication
And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young fornand will still accuse sunnis of clutching to bits and pieces.
Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted ?
Is that present in your books ??
And your kind of interpretation of that was true ,why does your fiqh say otherwise as i have demonstrated above .
the maths you failed understanding the point Fatimah (r.a) if e.g dhe was 6 at the time of proposal , and her daughter was 12 at the time umar proposed (assuming) , so the argument that she was young and so must be her daughter is a nonsense.It isn't on me ,in which book of logic it is written that to affirm an event occurred ,one requires to know the age of all the characters taking part in the event?
May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?
We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry , we don't know what was his age then , does it mean they didn't marry
My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?
But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator
The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar whom they have been projecting his great enemy
"Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige ages in shia madhab before we move further"
I follow the Qur'an and what goes with it. Books written by Shias or Sunnis can be looked at and examined. It's got nothing to do with the age factor. It's not just puberty that when a girl or a boy hits puberty then they can get married regardless of anything else been looked at and brought into account. Mental maturity and having basic sense and logic and understating about right and wrong and how to protect yourself and your rights along with knowing what is in your best interest and what is beneficial for you and what isn't also counts.
I do not believe that fathers or parents can marry off their daughters to whom ever they please as soon as they reach puberty without their consent and without them having the necessary knowledge and information about their rights and who they're getting themselves involved with and what they're getting themselves into.
"With that out of way now we can talk"
There is nothing in the way. So there's no need to get anything out of the way.
"Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe"
First of all lets not take anything out of context. Put forward the actual material and lets have a look at it. Second is it compulsory on me as a Shia to accept and believe in every single thing a Shia Scholar has to say? It doesn't matter who said and what they said and why they said it I have to accept and believe it?
"1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule"
That's fine. I have no objection or beef with your perspective. But it's not compulsory on me to even accept any bit or piece of any Shia Scholar or book let alone having your perspective shoved down my throat.
"And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"
Ok, I'll look at the actual hadith. If you can put it forward then that will be good. Any idea about roughly what was the age of Fatima when Umar asked for her hand in marriage and the Prophet s.a.w replied "she is too young"?
If she didn't hit puberty at the time then Umar most definitely wouldn't be asking. And if you agree that her age was of puberty and the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young" then we'll have to accept that puberty ain't enough. Other factors also need to be looked at and brought into account when we speak about marriage.
Marriage is a serious business based on responsibility and commitment. A lot falls into it. And a lot needs to be considered. It's not just about puberty and sexual intercourse.
"Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted"
Are you saying the Shaykhain weren't interested? Forget about me don't you believe in the hadith? Have you got doubts about it? It's widely accepted, isn't it? Or is their a dispute amongst the Ahle Sunnah over it?
"May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?"
If Hani said that then that is being silly or getting silly based on it being a cheap response in a desperate attempt to keep up in an argument. I probably would expect that from these types of Sunnis.
"We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry"
No it doesn't mean that. This is exactly your problem that you want to start bringing in different meanings. My response is, is there a dispute over Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf's Nikah? Was there a known dispute over if Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf marrying so and so? If there was then there would be absolutely no harm in asking important questions relating to the argument. My response here is an example of technical ability when it comes to discussions.
"My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?"
My response, is it necessary for me to know or for you to ask? Is there a dispute amongst the Ummah of my great grandfather's marriage? That's another example of technical ability in discussions and debates. If there's a dispute then let me know where and by whom then I'll most definitely get you the dates. I'm well equipped. I've worked on myself over the years. Don't want to blow my own trumpet. I'm just a normal person.
"The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar whom they have been projecting his great enemy"
Imam e Masoom wasn't the father in law of Umar. The Prophet s.a.w did consider himself to be the father in law of Umar. So how would Nafs e Rassool be. (Anna wa aliyun min noor e wahid).
The fact of the matter is that this story like many others were created just as a counter argument to deny that there was any beef or unrest between the Ahle Baith and the Shaykhain.
And I say that with all due respect towards the Shaykhain and all the sahaba (raa).
"But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator"
My argument is based on a disputed matter and is asking questions related to and concerning the matter.
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. Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige ages in shia madhab before we move further"
I follow the Qur'an and what goes with it. Books written by Shias or Sunnis can be looked at and examined. It's got nothing to do with the age factor. It's not just puberty that when a girl or a boy hits puberty then they can get married regardless of anything else been looked at and brought into account. Mental maturity and having basic sense and logic and understating about right and wrong and how to protect yourself and your rights along with knowing what is in your best interest and what is beneficial for you and what isn't also counts.
I do not believe that fathers or parents can marry off their daughters to whom ever they please as soon as they reach puberty without their consent and without them having the necessary knowledge and information about their rights and who they're getting themselves involved with and what they're getting themselves into.
Ist of all ice man , you will today like to throw all shia schoarship out of bus ,don't tell me you are the only upholder of truth in entire shiasm and only you understood the Quran and sunnah . If you think parents can't give away their children in marraige according to shia madhab , their must be some scholars who support your opinion isn't it ??
Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth bring some scholars who say
1. Puberty is the necessary criteria for marraige in shia madhab
2. A father can't give away his daughter for marraige
The opposite of it i have already proven you ask for the sources khomanis quote is hanging above (already given a scan)
Khoei and tusi accompanying this post as attachments
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We ahl u sunnah have a consensus that father can marry his daughter of he finds convinient
https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/178318
That's only assuming umm kulthum had not reached puberty yet which you have no evidence for .
I am attaching tusis quote
Where he says ,you can marry a women before she is a baligha without his father's permission , provided you don't plan intercourse if you plan that also then ask father's permission
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Ist of all ice man , you will today like to throw all shia schoarship out of bus ,don't tell me you are the only upholder of truth in entire shiasm and only you understood the Quran and sunnah . If you think parents can't give away their children in marraige according to shia madhab , their must be some scholars who support your opinion isn't it ??
Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth bring some scholars who say
1. Puberty is the necessary criteria for marraige in shia madhab
2. A father can't give away his daughter for marraige
The opposite of it i have already proven you ask for the sources khomanis quote is hanging above (already given a scan)
Khoei and tusi accompanying this post as attachments
Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?
I haven't thrown all Shia scholars out of the bus. Vast majority of the Shia community and scholars do not believe in the tale you have put forward. What part of it you don't understand or don't want to understand?
I have never said that I'm the only upholder of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.
When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
“This matter of the marriage of Fatima, my daughter, is in the hands of Allah Himself, and He alone will select a spouse for her”.
Is this true. This is what I'm coming across.
Parents can give away their children since they are the ones closest to them. But with the approval and consent of the child. A lot of marriages have taken place and do even now take place based on tradition and culture of where you come from. Parents decide or have already decided. And pressure is put on some children if they think otherwise or object.
A lot of marriages take place based on emotional blackmail by the parents. They assume they know better who their child should spend the rest of their life with. Many parents have already decided that it's going to be their own nephew or niece. Just to strengthen and further their (parents) relationship with their (parents) siblings.
"Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"
It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place. And your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.
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Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?
I haven't thrown all Shia scholars out of the bus. Vast majority of the Shia community and scholars do not believe in the tale you have put forward. What part of it you don't understand or don't want to understand?
I have never said that I'm the only upholder of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.
When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
“This matter of the marriage of Fatima, my daughter, is in the hands of Allah Himself, and He alone will select a spouse for her”.
Is this true. This is what I'm coming across.
Parents can give away their children since they are the ones closest to them. But with the approval and consent of the child. A lot of marriages have taken place and do even now take place based on tradition and culture of where you come from. Parents decide or have already decided. And pressure is put on some children if they think otherwise or object.
A lot of marriages take place based on emotional blackmail by the parents. They assume they know better who their child should spend the rest of their life with. Many parents have already decided that it's going to be their own nephew or niece. Just to strengthen and further their (parents) relationship with their (parents) siblings.
"Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"
It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place. And your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.
Ice man please bring some shia scholars before you make this age dramma or dig up the age of imm kulthum even before you make this argument
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1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule"
That's fine. I have no objection or beef with your perspective. But it's not compulsory on me to even accept any bit or piece of any Shia Scholar or book let alone having your perspective shoved down my throat.
Do you know the idiot i am feeling about you , you don't believe in the hadith since it is in the Sunni hadith nonetheless you will make all your case by burrying shia hadith and framing an opinion over this hadith which you don't believe in
Mashallah mr . Technical debator
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.
Ok, I'll look at the actual hadith. If you can put it forward then that will be good. Any idea about roughly what was the age of Fatima when Umar asked for her hand in marriage and the Prophet s.a.w replied "she is too young"?
If she didn't hit puberty at the time then Umar most definitely wouldn't be asking. And if you agree that her age was of puberty and the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young" then we'll have to accept that puberty ain't enough. Other factors also need to be looked at and brought into account when we speak about marriage.
Marriage is a serious business based on responsibility and commitment. A lot falls into it. And a lot needs to be considered. It's not just about puberty and sexual intercourse.
Here is the hadith from Sunan nasai
خطب أبو بكرٍ وعمرُ رضِيَ اللهُ عنهما فاطمةَ ، فقال رسولُ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّمَ : إنها صغيرةٌ ، فخطبها عليٌّ فزوَّجها منه
Abu Bakr and Umar approached for marriage and prophet (s.a.w) said she is young , then Ali (r.a) came and he married her off to him
Nothing of age known start deducing your wilderness from the hadith you don't believe in
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. Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted"
Are you saying the Shaykhain weren't interested? Forget about me don't you believe in the hadith? Have you got doubts about it? It's widely accepted, isn't it? Or is their a dispute amongst the Ahle Sunnah over it?
who said shaykhayn whernt intrested i have no doubt over but i am asking you why will you believe in it
As far ase believing in it i have already explained the Sunni perspective over it
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. Imam e Masoom wasn't the father in law of Umar. The Prophet s.a.w did consider himself to be the father in law of Umar. So how would Nafs e Rassool be. (Anna wa aliyun min noor e wahid).
The fact of the matter is that this story like many others were created just as a counter argument to deny that there was any beef or unrest between the Ahle Baith and the Shaykhain.
And I say that with all due respect towards the Shaykhain and all the sahaba (raa).
Turn blinkers on ,ignore authentic hadith of masoomeen ,the two heavy things that you boast often about today sometimes you take shelter in nasai hadith sometimes you play number games
And sometimes you . Examine things well and turn things upside down
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.
"But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator"
My argument is based on a disputed matter and is asking questions related to and
Untill only few years before shias disputed over the preservation of Quran also, also imam al mehdi of shia is disputed between Shia and Sunni
Care to answer the following
Who was nursing his mother when he was born
You shias dispute us on everything , why does that count
If you have authentic hadith please don't come back saying statement of masoomeen are nothing
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Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?
If i cant find a difference of opinion among scholars ,then yes everything they say is binding.and i am asking you the same question do some of your scholars make a sharp demarcation on age limit for marraige or even puberty for that matter?
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I have never said that I'm the only upholder of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.
When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
You didn't bring a unity (one opinion) and asking me to bring majority
And why is that even relevant to you oh is it because their is one hadith on nasai which you don't believe in to start with?
. When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
1. Bring that Hadith
2. How is it relevant to you if it is a sunni hadith
3. I won't bother addressing your nonsensical deductions till then
. Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"
It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place.
Vast majority of shias don't follow their imams
Authentic statements you nasbees
. your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.
Already refuted and you still bringing it up is a sign of your desperation.
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And this bidhnillaha will end all excuses of ice man
He said
.This is something we strongly disagree with as well. The Prophet s.a.w did not marry Aisha at that young age. These are fabricated stories that have been created and brought about by certain individuals and characters just to deem it permissible to marry young and under age girls.
Nadir Zaveri puts beautifully on his website
//إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً
“The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله entered upon (had sexual intercourse with) `Aa’ishah when she was 10 years old, and that one doesn’t enter (upon) a jaariyah (girl) until she became a woman.”
Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol.7, pg. 388, hadeeth # 1
2. Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 6, ch. 91, pg. 251, hadeeth # 49
3. Al-`Aamilee, Wasaa’il Al-Shee`ah, vol. 1, ch. 4, pg. 44, hadeeth # 75
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
è Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235
2. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH Mawqoof (Authentic Halted)
è Milaadh Al-Akhyaa//
More comming soon
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And here is another hadith
منها : صحيحة الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ، قال : «إذا تزوّج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة ، فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»
Among them is :
Authentic hadith from halbi
Abi Abdillah (a.s) said
if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9
Two points here
1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman
So what more excuses are you going to pull out??
http://www.al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=4703
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https://youtu.be/AfW8dKe9q_o
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And here is another hadith
منها : صحيحة الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ، قال : «إذا تزوّج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة ، فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»
Among them is :
Authentic hadith from halbi
Abi Abdillah (a.s) said
if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9
Two points here
1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman
So what more excuses are you going to pull out??
http://www.al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=4703
First is this the Qur'an you're mentioning or a clear cut Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w? Second the marraige of Umar ibn Al Khattab to Qalsoom binte Ali, is this in any of the six authentic books?
I don't need excuses or to make excuses. I don't believe the marriage took place. You believe it did. I'm questioning you about facts relating to the marriage and you're dodging them.
"if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9"
Small girl? Is she mature enough to know what's happening to her? What is she getting involved in? Does she know the responsibility and commitment that a marriage holds? It's common basic sense that if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage. Someone who can't even read and write properly is capable of marriage?
"1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman"
You put it forward so you can enjoy it. No taste for me here. I follow Qur'an and Sunnah and civilised society and the law of the land. Not traditional and cultural values with an Islamic label on them.
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Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussain Al Milani also doesn't believe that this marriage took place.
https://www.al-islam.org/node/40380
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In Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet s.a.w for his daughter, Lady Fatima hand the Prophet s.a.w replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that,.Qalsoom whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?
Secondly, Umar's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of.Qalsoom, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umar the Step-Great Grandfather of Qalsoom. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran.
Qalsoom was the daughter of Ali Ibne Abi Talib. Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Qalsoom and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Qalsoom was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri. History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
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Historical evidences show that Fatima passed away 6 month after the demise of his father s.a.w and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Qalsoom, daughter of Ali was born in the year 9 Hijri. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546 - Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39
Then how is it possible for Qalsoom to be born after the death of Fatima if the Sunnis claim that she was married to Umar in the year 17 Hijri at an age of 4 or 5 years, that would put the date of birth as 12 or 13 Hijri, which is long after the death of her mother?! The Sunnis do not claim that she was 4 or 5 in the year 17 but 11 or 12.
Sunni historical evidence shows that Qalsoom (the so-called wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hassan , Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.
Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hassan was martyred in the year 50 Hijri..But then other references show that Qalsoom was present in Karbala during the year 61 Hijri.
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. First is this the Qur'an you're mentioning or a clear cut Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w?
It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam
.Second the marraige of Umar ibn Al Khattab to Qalsoom binte Ali, is this in any of the six authentic books?
Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith and however what should be relevant to you is , is the hadith in any of shia authentic books which we proved already.
don't need excuses or to make excuses. I don't believe the marriage took place. You believe it did. I'm questioning you about facts relating to the marriage and you're dodging them.
You didn't brought one point yet which i didn't answer if something is leftover bring it on.
. Small girl? Is she mature enough to know what's happening to her? What is she getting involved in? Does she know the responsibility and commitment that a marriage holds? It's common basic sense that if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage. Someone who can't even read and write properly is capable of marriage?
This is authentic hadith from your imam al Masoom
. . if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage
Ice man you should rather say your imam has no sense of decency in saying this and your scholars have no sense that of decency in authenticating this is not from Sunni book this is from Shia book ,i had given the link also .
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You put it forward so you can enjoy it. No taste for me here. I follow Qur'an and Sunnah and civilised society and the law of the land. Not traditional and cultural values with an Islamic label on them.
So imam al Masoom isn't one among the thaqalayn any more
Is authentic ahadith from imam al masoom and act of marraige of prophet (s.a.w) with Aisha(r.a) as narrated authentically in al kafi not a sunnah
Think before speaking iceman, you are ripping apart shaiaism today
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https://youtu.be/AfW8dKe9q_o
Not watching the video present the points here and we shall talk.
. Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet s.a.w for his daughter, Lady Fatima hand the Prophet s.a.w replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that,.Qalsoom whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?
Already explained it ,the hadith doesn't say too young for them , rather it simply says she was young and i have already explained sunni perspective of understanding those narrations , why do you believe in this narration though ,sunni texts don't mean anything to you but mashallah you will frame an opinion about a hadith which you don't believe in .
For you al kafi shoulder have been a sufficient evidence,but you are only concerned what nasai says ,what mishkat says and they say nothing in your aid though such a pathetic your stubbornness is .
. Secondly, Umar's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of.Qalsoom, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umar the Step-Great Grandfather of Qalsoom. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran.
Rather it is you who have to prove impermssiblity burden of evidence is upon whom who makes the argument.
Ali married widow of Abu Bakr so she was step.mother of Aisha and Fatimah was daughter of Aisha (r.a) so Ali by your logic married his mother in laws mother ?
Note only blood relations and foster relations make marraige prohibited. Step sister stepol mother step grand daughter etc don't prove any relations .
. Qalsoom was the daughter of Ali Ibne Abi Talib. Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Qalsoom and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Qalsoom was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri. History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
Already refuted nothing authentic here as already proven above, don't bother us with same quotes after we have refuted them once
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. Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussain Al Milani also doesn't believe that this marriage took place.
https://www.al-islam.org/node/40380
Al Milani is a hypocrite after acknowledgeing the hadith is authentic he turns blind eye to it
You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games.
. Historical evidences show that Fatima passed away 6 month after the demise of his father s.a.w and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Qalsoom, daughter of Ali was born in the year 9 Hijri. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546 - Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39
You are a being idiot , where does it say she was born in 9 hijri ? In Bukhari ? Bring the hadith .
Did you forget what you said earlier
she was born 6. Hijri
..
Anything to deny this wow!!
Sunni historical evidence shows that Qalsoom (the so-called wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hassan , Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.
Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hassan was martyred in the year 50 Hijri..But then other references show that Qalsoom was present in Karbala during the year 61 Hijri.
No refrence who cares (for her being in karballaha or her dying in 50 hijri aor Ibn Abbas and sad Ibn Waqas offering funeral )
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To give up what is for certain for what is doubtful is evil.
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Ok, give me the dates. When was Qalsoom binte Ali born. When did she get married to Umar ibn Al Khattab. What was the age of Umar when he married her. When did Umar die. How long did he serve as Caliph.
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To give up what is for certain for what is doubtful is evil.
I hope it isn't addressed to me or is it??
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Ok, give me the dates. When was Qalsoom binte Ali born. When did she get married to Umar ibn Al Khattab. What was the age of Umar when he married her. When did Umar die. How long did he serve as Caliph.
1.Born : most probably 6 hijjri
2. Married during Khilafah of Umar (r.a) dont know specific age
3. Could be around 50 since he was martyred
4. At age of 62
4. Till his martyrdom
You are trying all you can to play number games sociologist games and all you can just to nullify your books
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1.Born : most probably 6 hijjri
2. Married during Khilafah of Umar (r.a) dont know specific age
3. Could be around 50 since he was martyred
4. At age of 62
4. Till his martyrdom
You are trying all you can to play number games sociologist games and all you can just to nullify your books
I'm not trying anything. The way you sound is that you're trying to avoid getting caught up in going down the road that it didn't happen. That's how you sound and how it looks like. I'm not playing the number game nor do I use or play the majority game with those who are in minority compared to us. This is a disputed matter. And in a disputed matter you have a right to ask any questions related to that matter to those who you dispute it with. If you don't want to accept civil law based on rights then that's up to you.
Umar asked for Fatima's hand in marriage, the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". This means that the marriage can't happen because she is too young for you and you are too old for her. If we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character.
And mental maturity and understanding about your rights and responsibilities along with education and knowledge is still yet to be brought into question and discussed. It's the Qur'an we suppose to follow not bits and pieces from here and there that suit out belief and understanding.
Is marriage more serious and the understanding, responsibility and commitment or driving a car? Those Islamic governed countries and their scholars, what age can you start driving and hold a driving licence from? Have a look at this. I mean have a serious look at it. When it comes to driving you have to be 18 years of age. In some countries may be 16 but in majority of the countries be it Muslim governed or not it is 18.
When it comes to car insurance and safety of driving, that is the protection of yourself, your vehicle and others around you when you are our and about, the insurance is very high for under 25s.Especially under 21s. Some insurance providers don't even insure under 21s. Ever thought why? And that's getting behind the wheel of a car. How about getting behind the wheel of marriage?
It's not just puberty but many other factors need to be considered such as mental health/condition and maturity..Having the understanding, knowing the responsibility and being familiar about your rights and the rights of others along with other necessary and important things need to be considered before getting behind the wheel of marriage and holding a licence. And in this case it's a marriage license.
Scholars have said things just to safeguard and protect either themselves and those that are related to them to save themselves of persecution or to safeguard and protect those in history and the decisions they made at the time. Otherwise you're undermining them and putting them in a bad position.
So Fatwas and statements, from be it Shia scholars who have either looked at persecution in those days or unity amongst Muslims in these days or to protect Sunni important figures or be it Sunni scholars looking at protecting and safeguarding companion or certain rulers of that time, is something we need to look at and understand before we accept and pass judgment.
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We ahl u sunnah have a consensus that father can marry his daughter of he finds convinient
https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/178318
That's only assuming umm kulthum had not reached puberty yet which you have no evidence for .
I am attaching tusis quote
Where he says ,you can marry a women before she is a baligha without his father's permission , provided you don't plan intercourse if you plan that also then ask father's permission
But what about her permission. What about her choice. What about her desire. Is this an individual who happens to be a woman so therefore she either doesn't have any feelings and emotions or she has no right to her feelings and emotions just because she is a female and being a Muslim and in Islam girls and women are just there to serve men and boys. That's what they're there for and that is the only reason and purpose for their creation. Sounds like a male sauvanist society or ideology if that's the case.
Keeping in mind that all these Fatwas and rulings come from scholars who all happen to be males. Tell me what knowledge and understanding do they have about females. He says she must do this, he says she must be that, he says she can't do this, he says she can't do that etc etc and etc. It's all about he and it's all about him. Is this Islam and is this what we Muslims be it Shia or Sunni are all about.
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It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam
Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith and however what should be relevant to you is , is the hadith in any of shia authentic books which we proved already.You didn't brought one point yet which i didn't answer if something is leftover bring it on.This is authentic hadith from your imam al Masoom Ice man you should rather say your imam has no sense of decency in saying this and your scholars have no sense that of decency in authenticating this is not from Sunni book this is from Shia book ,i had given the link also .
So imam al Masoom isn't one among the thaqalayn any more
Is authentic ahadith from imam al masoom and act of marraige of prophet (s.a.w) with Aisha(r.a) as narrated authentically in al kafi not a sunnah
Think before speaking iceman, you are ripping apart shaiaism today
"It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam"
Ok, so why did the Imam say it. Was this said under normal and basic circumstances. Or was it said under extreme conditions and pressure. Have you read the history of each shia Imam and what they had to go through and put up with based on persecution. Or was this said just to keep Sunni Scholars somewhat happy by not harming or damaging the reputation unintentionally of Sunni important figures of history like what certain Shia scholars do nowadays. After all its all about building peace and harmony and trying to keep it. And you have to pay a price for this. We'll someone has to.
"Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith"
Short term memory loss? Did you get in touch with my doctor. Or are you familiar with my medical records. This is exactly what is the problem with you people that you go by assumptions, what you assume or think. If it's not that then it's sarcasm what you rely on. It's not memory loss but too much being put forward by too many.
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Al Milani is a hypocrite after acknowledgeing the hadith is authentic he turns blind eye to it
You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games.
You are a being idiot , where does it say she was born in 9 hijri ? In Bukhari ? Bring the hadith .
Did you forget what you said earlierAnything to deny this wow!!
No refrence who cares (for her being in karballaha or her dying in 50 hijri aor Ibn Abbas and sad Ibn Waqas offering funeral )
"Al Milani is a hypocrite"
Well so must be Mustafa Al Qazwini who also rejects and refutes this tale. And the majority who agree with them. They all must be hypocrites apart from a few who side with you over this.
Well there you go mate. Either it's hypocrisy who disagrees with you or its unreliable and not authentic what disagrees with you.
"You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games"
We don't look for excuses. Everybody has their own opinion and view about things. And that is not the opinion and view of the entire Shia community or part of the entire Shia faith and must not be taken as such we you lot are trying your best to do.
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Not watching the video present the points here and we shall talk.
Already explained it ,the hadith doesn't say too young for them , rather it simply says she was young and i have already explained sunni perspective of understanding those narrations , why do you believe in this narration though ,sunni texts don't mean anything to you but mashallah you will frame an opinion about a hadith which you don't believe in .
For you al kafi shoulder have been a sufficient evidence,but you are only concerned what nasai says ,what mishkat says and they say nothing in your aid though such a pathetic your stubbornness is .
Rather it is you who have to prove impermssiblity burden of evidence is upon whom who makes the argument.
Ali married widow of Abu Bakr so she was step.mother of Aisha and Fatimah was daughter of Aisha (r.a) so Ali by your logic married his mother in laws mother ?
Note only blood relations and foster relations make marraige prohibited. Step sister stepol mother step grand daughter etc don't prove any relations .
Already refuted nothing authentic here as already proven above, don't bother us with same quotes after we have refuted them once
"Rather it is you who have to prove impermssiblity burden of evidence is upon whom who makes the argument.
Ali married widow of Abu Bakr so she was step.mother of Aisha and Fatimah was daughter of Aisha (r.a) so Ali by your logic married his mother in laws mother ?"
Rather than wasting your time trying to okay tit for tat who was the wife of Abu Bakr or how many wives and children did he have. Care to name them. Because if I bring things forward then either they're not accepted for one reason or another or its tit for tat. Did Abu Bakr have a daughter by the name of Qalsoom or not. Did we have other women by the name of Qalsoom or not.
The main point is Fatima the mother of Qalsoom was young for Umar. Then when Fatima got married and had 4 children 2 boys then 2 girls, the first girl isn't in question anywhere but Umar was interested in the second. And she wasn't young for him. If Umar burnt the door of Fatima and she got injured then why did Ali marry his daughter to him, this is exactly why this tale was created. As a counter argument. Because that's what we've got and have been getting, the tale is being used as a counter argument.
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I'm not trying anything. The way you sound is that you're trying to avoid getting caught up in going down the road that it didn't happen. That's how you sound and how it looks like. I'm not playing the number game nor do I use or play the majority game with those who are in minority compared to us. This is a disputed matter. And in a disputed matter you have a right to ask any questions related to that matter to those who you dispute it with. If you don't want to accept civil law based on rights then that's up to you.
Umar asked for Fatima's hand in marriage, the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". This means that the marriage can't happen because she is too young for you and you are too old for her. If we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character.
And mental maturity and understanding about your rights and responsibilities along with education and knowledge is still yet to be brought into question and discussed. It's the Qur'an we suppose to follow not bits and pieces from here and there that suit out belief and understanding.
Is marriage more serious and the understanding, responsibility and commitment or driving a car? Those Islamic governed countries and their scholars, what age can you start driving and hold a driving licence from? Have a look at this. I mean have a serious look at it. When it comes to driving you have to be 18 years of age. In some countries may be 16 but in majority of the countries be it Muslim governed or not it is 18.
When it comes to car insurance and safety of driving, that is the protection of yourself, your vehicle and others around you when you are our and about, the insurance is very high for under 25s.Especially under 21s. Some insurance providers don't even insure under 21s. Ever thought why? And that's getting behind the wheel of a car. How about getting behind the wheel of marriage?
It's not just puberty but many other factors need to be considered such as mental health/condition and maturity..Having the understanding, knowing the responsibility and being familiar about your rights and the rights of others along with other necessary and important things need to be considered before getting behind the wheel of marriage and holding a licence. And in this case it's a marriage license.
Scholars have said things just to safeguard and protect either themselves and those that are related to them to save themselves of persecution or to safeguard and protect those in history and the decisions they made at the time. Otherwise you're undermining them and putting them in a bad position.
So Fatwas and statements, from be it Shia scholars who have either looked at persecution in those days or unity amongst Muslims in these days or to protect Sunni important figures or be it Sunni scholars looking at protecting and safeguarding companion or certain rulers of that time, is something we need to look at and understand before we accept and pass judgment.
You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now
. Umar asked for Fatima's hand in marriage, the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". This means that the marriage can't happen because she is too young for you and you are too old for her. If we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character.
Why do you ignore the responses already given
1. Why do you bother about this hadith is it present in shia books
Assuming it was even relevant to you
1. If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already.
2.if Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure.
. . we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character
Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10.And this quote of khomayni
it is ok placing privates between thighs of a suckling babes And this quote of tusi
you require permission of walii if girl is under 9 for intercourse and for plain enjoyment not requiredAnd this hadith of imam Masoom
don't have intercourse with your wife untill she turns 10Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression
We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks
2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless
3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah
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. . Rather than wasting your time trying to okay tit for tat who was the wife of Abu Bakr or how many wives and children did he have. Care to name them. Because if I bring things forward then either they're not accepted for one reason or another or its tit for tat. Did Abu Bakr have a daughter by the name of Qalsoom or not. Did we have other women by the name of Qalsoom or not.
Simply irrelevant because hadith , clearly says umm kulthum bint Ali
And Jaffar Sadiq says
umm kulthum was an honor taken away from us
Don't yell nonsense here .i was to refute your step granddaughter excuse which i did bi hamd lillah.
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The main point is Fatima the mother of Qalsoom was young for Umar. Then when Fatima got married and had 4 children 2 boys then 2 girls, the first girl isn't in question anywhere but Umar was interested in the second. .
The problem is your argument would be valid if we where to assume umar(r.a) was on a watch oh zainab (r.a) the first daughter of Ali is born ,i must ask for marraige now ,it is now or never.....
This is called stupidity my friend got it ??
The point of time the thought marrying one daughter of Ali came to umar (r.a), why can't zaynab (r.a) be already engaged .
Arguing against established ahadith by whims and opinions such a nonsense you are.
. If Umar burnt the door of Fatima and she got injured then why did Ali marry his daughter to him, this is exactly why this tale was created. As a counter argument. Because that's what we've got and have been getting, the tale is being used as a counter argument.
You exactly mentioned your problem infact you guys want to push forth the burning of door story , whatever opposes you guys deny .
This is in authentic shia hadith my friend why the hell are you denying your own ahadith.
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"It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam"
Ok, so why did the Imam say it. Was this said under normal and basic circumstances. Or was it said under extreme conditions and pressure. Have you read the history of each shia Imam and what they had to go through and put up with based on persecution. Or was this said just to keep Sunni Scholars somewhat happy by not harming or damaging the reputation unintentionally of Sunni important figures of history like what certain Shia scholars do nowadays. After all its all about building peace and harmony and trying to keep it. And you have to pay a price for this. We'll someone has to.
"Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith"
Short term memory loss? Did you get in touch with my doctor. Or are you familiar with my medical records. This is exactly what is the problem with you people that you go by assumptions, what you assume or think. If it's not that then it's sarcasm what you rely on. It's not memory loss but too much being put forward by too many.
. Ok, so why did the Imam say it. Was this said under normal and basic circumstances. Or was it said under extreme conditions and pressure. Have you read the history of each shia Imam and what they had to go through and put up with based on persecution. Or was this said just to keep Sunni Scholars somewhat happy by not harming or damaging the reputation unintentionally of Sunni important figures of history like what certain Shia scholars do nowadays. After all its all about building peace and harmony and trying to keep it. And you have to pay a price for this. We'll someone has to.
Idiocy of highest level
1. If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure
2. If imams made an incorrect statement publicly , wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion??
Do you have such a Hadith ??
. Short term memory loss? Did you get in touch with my doctor. Or are you familiar with my medical records. This is exactly what is the problem with you people that you go by assumptions, what you assume or think. If it's not that then it's sarcasm what you rely on. It's not memory loss but too much being put forward by too many.
This is idiocy next level ,the guy brings ist tababqat ibn sad quote saying she was born 6 hijri
Latter he says well i was being an idiot now bukhari says 9 hijri is d.o.b
We say you are still being idiot bukhari doesn't say so .
Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother.
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"Al Milani is a hypocrite"
Well so must be Mustafa Al Qazwini who also rejects and refutes this tale. And the majority who agree with them. They all must be hypocrites apart from a few who side with you over this.
Well there you go mate. Either it's hypocrisy who disagrees with you or its unreliable and not authentic what disagrees with you.
"You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games"
We don't look for excuses. Everybody has their own opinion and view about things. And that is not the opinion and view of the entire Shia community or part of the entire Shia faith and must not be taken as such we you lot are trying your best to do.
.Al Milani is a hypocrite"
Well so must be Mustafa Al Qazwini who also rejects and refutes this tale. And the majority who agree with them. They all must be hypocrites apart from a few who side with you over this.
Well there you go mate. Either it's hypocrisy who disagrees with you or its unreliable and not authentic what disagrees with you.
Yes exactly Milani is a hypocrite he says the hadith of Umar marrying umm kulthum is authentic ,then thinks he is more knowledgeable than imams and denies it is that hypocrisy or what else you call it .
Qaznawi or Milani whoever denies an authentic hadith from imam is a hypocrite.
. We don't look for excuses. Everybody has their own opinion and view about things. And that is not the opinion and view of the entire Shia community or part of the entire Shia faith and must not be taken as such we you lot are trying your best to do
Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time
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You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now
Why do you ignore the responses already given
1. Why do you bother about this hadith is it present in shia books
Assuming it was even relevant to you
1. If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already.
2.if Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure.
Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10.And this quote of khomayni
it is ok placing privates between thighs of a suckling babes And this quote of tusi
you require permission of walii if girl is under 9 for intercourse and for plain enjoyment not requiredAnd this hadith of imam Masoom
don't have intercourse with your wife untill she turns 10Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression
We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks
2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless
3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah
"You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now"
I'll ask you once again, this tale is disputed amongst the Muslims. It's a disputed case and this is the court that it's in. You are trying to prove that this marriage did take place. The evidence you're putting forward is reports from a handful of Shia Scholars who claim the marriage took place. Why do they believe it took place, there's absolutely nothing on that. But they just believe it took place because lets say certain Shia Imam said it took place.
Again nothing being talked about let alone being discussed on the facts and nature of the marriage that why it took place, when it took place, how it took place, where it took place etc etc etc and etc. These are vital and important matters in a disputed case and can't be ignored or over looked. This ain't enough in a disputed matter that a handful of Shias believe it took place to get the majority to accept.
And when I put references forward of known and recognised Shia scholars who believe it didn't take place giving their reasons either you don't want to look into it or you accuse them of hypocrisy. Way to go I say.
"If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already"
It's something that the majority of the Shias don't accept. We don't believe that these things actually like the Prophet s.a.w marrying Aisha at a very young age. Certain rulers after Muhammad s.a.w or members of the government did and were engaged in a lot of things then hadiths as such were created to justify and put some weight behind what they did and got up to.
"Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure"
I've already addressed this but I'll do it again. Umar asked the Prophet s.a.w for Fatima's hand in marriage. The Prophet s.a.w rejected by saying "she is young". Now what does this means? Well there's two meanings to it. Nothing more than that. So it ain't complicated. And lets not make it complicated.
Either Fatima didn't reach puberty which would be wrong and anti Islamic or against any religion and civilised community to begin with. Don't you think Umar would have asked a known female to enquire first if she reached puberty or not before asking.
Or it could mean that the Prophet s.a.w rejected on the grounds that she is young for Umar looking at the immense age gap. The matter isn't complicated but definitely disputed. You're making it complicated by not accepting the other side of the argument.
"Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10." and the other quotes you've mentioned.
Let me explain this to you. Listen carefully. Certain Shia Imams might have said things based on unfortunate circumstances and times they were facing, the tough conditions and harsh situations they were up against to protect their followers and supporters from persecution.
Or certain Shia Imams or high ranking Shia scholars of the past and present might have said something or might say something just to protect the honour, character and personality of certain individuals of the past who Ahle Sunnah hold very important and dear to themselves, in the name of Muslims unity that is itehad bainal muslimeen, just to keep peace and harmony and to promote it.
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Yes exactly Milani is a hypocrite he says the hadith of Umar marrying umm kulthum is authentic ,then thinks he is more knowledgeable than imams and denies it is that hypocrisy or what else you call it .
Qaznawi or Milani whoever denies an authentic hadith from imam is a hypocrite.Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time
"Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time"
And I feel the same about you that you're looking for excuses to justify that the marraige took place. How? By completely rejecting everything I'm putting forward. So where does that leave us if the feeling and words are mutual. Tell me this, do the vast majority of the Shia scholars regardless of their rank and status accept that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no. Do the vast majority of the Shia community believe that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no.
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Idiocy of highest level
1. If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure
2. If imams made an incorrect statement publicly , wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion??
Do you have such a Hadith ??
This is idiocy next level ,the guy brings ist tababqat ibn sad quote saying she was born 6 hijri
Latter he says well i was being an idiot now bukhari says 9 hijri is d.o.b
We say you are still being idiot bukhari doesn't say so .
Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother.
First of all lets clear this.
In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.
This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).
Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.
"If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure"
Taqiyyah isn't lying. Learn and get to know the difference. If you do then there's no need to create mischief. Lying is dishonesty and taqiyyah is to conceal. Lying is to hide the truth based on dishonesty. And taqiyyah is to conceal the truth based on protecting it. The purpose of lying is to protect the guilty and or the crime or culprit. The purpose of taqiyyah is to protect the truth or people from unnecessary harm or hurt. That's the difference.
We all know the history of the Shia Imams and what they had to go through or were put through along with their families, followers and supporters.
"If imams made an incorrect statement publicly"
It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.
"wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"
It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surrounding it.
"Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother"
I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.
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You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now
Why do you ignore the responses already given
1. Why do you bother about this hadith is it present in shia books
Assuming it was even relevant to you
1. If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already.
2.if Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure.
Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10.And this quote of khomayni
it is ok placing privates between thighs of a suckling babes And this quote of tusi
you require permission of walii if girl is under 9 for intercourse and for plain enjoyment not requiredAnd this hadith of imam Masoom
don't have intercourse with your wife untill she turns 10Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression
We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks
2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless
3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah
"Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression"
THE TAQIYYAH CARD? This card was first used by Muhammad s.a.w before he declared his Messenger status. He was a Messenger before he declared it. Not declaring it means concealing it. That is taqiyyah. When people started to show interest in Islam or started to accept Islam they faced persecution from the Mushriks and Kafirs of Mecca. Some took on the taqiyyah card.
"We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks"
Yes but they were both believers and supporters of unity amongst Muslims itehad bainal muslimeen. Did Khoei ever challenge and take on the tyrant and dictator Saddam. Why did Khomeini issue a fatwa that there was not only one but 4 natural haqeeqy daughters of Muhammad s.a.w? When the absolute and clear cut belief of the Shias is the Muhammad s.a.w only had one daughter?
So it's not just only about persecution. Many other things fall into perspective.
"2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless"
It depends on whether the Imams made a statement based on Taqqiyah and that is to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss and harm or because they wanted to protect personalities and individuals who were extremely important to others based on unity amongst the Muslims. It needs to be looked at. Something shouldn't be taken at face value. Islamic history along with narrations have been tampered with. Members of different governments that came about, regardless of what position they held, got up to a lot of things.
"3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah"
Yes. There are plenty and many. But you either label them as hypocrites or engineered. The same excuse and allegation is used for those Sunni scholars who I put forward that don't share your thought and opinion over a matter or don't agree with your view over an issue.
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First of all lets clear this.
In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.
This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).
Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.
"If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure"
Taqiyyah isn't lying. Learn and get to know the difference. If you do then there's no need to create mischief. Lying is dishonesty and taqiyyah is to conceal. Lying is to hide the truth based on dishonesty. And taqiyyah is to conceal the truth based on protecting it. The purpose of lying is to protect the guilty and or the crime or culprit. The purpose of taqiyyah is to protect the truth or people from unnecessary harm or hurt. That's the difference.
We all know the history of the Shia Imams and what they had to go through or were put through along with their families, followers and supporters.
"If imams made an incorrect statement publicly"
It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.
"wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"
It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surr.
"Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother"
I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.
. In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.
This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).
Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.
Not discussing taqiyyah here.
. It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.
Look at the idiot
Imam says Umar married umm kulthum
The idiot choses not to believe it
But imam made a correct statement also
You are sick .
. wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"
It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surrounding it
Again i am losing my temper over the purposeful crap that you r putting forth
Imam said umar married umm kulthum
Now it is necessary clarifying that .
You are really spitting whatever breads in your mind.
.
I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.
Nope my dear you are the one doing all the dance here and i am bored with that by now.
You Posted in every single website you could dig up. And of no avail
First you say umar is portrayed a bad way
I refuted
Then you say , dates are confusing i refuted
Now your only lone excuse is marraige requires her to be much grown up.
my challenge, respond to this only instead of writing newspapers, show us one Shia scholar who says parents can't give children in marraige before puberty.
. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.
The same khoei who didn't mind saying sunnis are najis (impure) the same khomayni who barked on aaisha (r.a) didn't care about Muslim faternity but ,when he was asked about can a man enjoy a child before puberty he suddenly becomes thoughtful of Muslim faternity ,which sunni scholar says ok pentrating a girl between thighs ,for khomayni to imitate sunnis for faternity .?
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"Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time"
And I feel the same about you that you're looking for excuses to justify that the marraige took place. How? By completely rejecting everything I'm putting forward. So where does that leave us if the feeling and words are mutual. Tell me this, do the vast majority of the Shia scholars regardless of their rank and status accept that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no. Do the vast majority of the Shia community believe that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no.
What the hell did you brought fort Sunan nasai hadeeth which you don't believe in yourself,but want to save your religion just on that basis.
Till 4th century no shia scholar rejected this .
Latter some of them developed this set of excuses
My question are authentic hadith from.infallibles nothing,this only shows how biased your scholars have been latter on .
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"Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression"
THE TAQIYYAH CARD? This card was first used by Muhammad s.a.w before he declared his Messenger status. He was a Messenger before he declared it. Not declaring it means concealing it. That is taqiyyah. When people started to show interest in Islam or started to accept Islam they faced persecution from the Mushriks and Kafirs of Mecca. Some took on the taqiyyah card.
"We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks"
Yes but they were both believers and supporters of unity amongst Muslims itehad bainal muslimeen. Did Khoei ever challenge and take on the tyrant and dictator Saddam. Why did Khomeini issue a fatwa that there was not only one but 4 natural haqeeqy daughters of Muhammad s.a.w? When the absolute and clear cut belief of the Shias is the Muhammad s.a.w only had one daughter?
So it's not just only about persecution. Many other things fall into perspective.
"2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless"
It depends on whether the Imams made a statement based on Taqqiyah and that is to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss and harm or because they wanted to protect personalities and individuals who were extremely important to others based on unity amongst the Muslims. It needs to be looked at. Something shouldn't be taken at face value. Islamic history along with narrations have been tampered with. Members of different governments that came about, regardless of what position they held, got up to a lot of things.
"3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah"
Yes. There are plenty and many. But you either label them as hypocrites or engineered. The same excuse and allegation is used for those Sunni scholars who I put forward that don't share your thought and opinion over a matter or don't agree with your view over an issue..
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"Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression"
THE TAQIYYAH CARD? This card was first used by Muhammad s.a.w before he declared his Messenger status. He was a Messenger before he declared it. Not declaring it means concealing it. That is taqiyyah. When people started to show interest in Islam or started to accept Islam they faced persecution from the Mushriks and Kafirs of Mecca. Some took on the taqiyyah card.
No Muhammad (s.a.w) never said a thing while himself believing opposite ,you blasphemous idiot. Means you will go Even on attacking Muhammad (s.a.w) just to deny this marraige you idiot.
. depends on whether the Imams made a statement based on Taqqiyah and that is to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss and harm or because they wanted to protect personalities and individuals who were extremely important to others based on unity amongst the Muslims. It needs to be looked at. Something shouldn't be taken at face value. Islamic history along with narrations have been tampered with. Members of different governments that came about, regardless of what position they held, got up to a lot of things.
If imam has said an incorrect information ,while being infallible ,who on the earth will correct that you?
. 3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah"
Yes. There are plenty and many. But you either label them as hypocrites or engineered. The same excuse and allegation is used for those Sunni scholars who I put forward that don't share your thought and opinion over a matter or don't agree with your view over an issue
Show me one scholar who says parents can't marry away their children before a you age before spitting nonsense here
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Not discussing taqiyyah here.
Look at the idiot
Imam says Umar married umm kulthum
The idiot choses not to believe it
But imam made a correct statement also
You are sick .
Again i am losing my temper over the purposeful crap that you r putting forth
Imam said umar married umm kulthum
Now it is necessary clarifying that .
You are really spitting whatever breads in your mind.
Nope my dear you are the one doing all the dance here and i am bored with that by now.
You Posted in every single website you could dig up. And of no avail
First you say umar is portrayed a bad way
I refuted
Then you say , dates are confusing i refuted
Now your only lone excuse is marraige requires her to be much grown up.
my challenge, respond to this only instead of writing newspapers, show us one Shia scholar who says parents can't give children in marraige before puberty.
The same khoei who didn't mind saying sunnis are najis (impure) the same khomayni who barked on aaisha (r.a) didn't care about Muslim faternity but ,when he was asked about can a man enjoy a child before puberty he suddenly becomes thoughtful of Muslim faternity ,which sunni scholar says ok pentrating a girl between thighs ,for khomayni to imitate sunnis for faternity .?
Look at the idiot Imam says Umar married umm kulthum"
Lol. Did the Imam say that? Why did he say it? What was the reason for saying it? What was the circumstances at the time? What situation was he facing and the conditions he was up against? Non of this counts or matters. And why aren't all the Shia scholars and people accepting this and taking it at face value?
"But imam made a correct statement also
You are sick"
Correct due to the circumstances at the time and the situation he was in and the conditions he was facing. Why didn't Umar marry Zaynab? Zaynab was older than Qalsoom. Why don't we have a story that Umar married Zaynab binte Ali?
Because Zaynab was popular in history due to her being active in Karbala. If you need your make a story then you've got to make it in a way and use characters that are less known and not that popular, not being in the limelight for the story to stick and sell.
Why don't we have a story like Ibne Saba married the daughter of Ali or Muawiya married the daughter of Ali or something like that? 😊 Why Umar? Why only Umar and not anyone else mentioned? Why only the one who is accused of burning the door? 😊
It's a flaming coincidence isn't it that the one who is actually accused of burning the door and injuring Fatima, whether he did or he didn't is another thing, he is the one of all people who is named and linked in the tale of marrying Fatimah's daughter?
Is it so it can be used as a counter argument that if Umar really and truly burned the door and injured Fatima then later on in life why the on earth did Ali marry his daughter to him 😊 What a coincidence. Fits perfectly, doesn't it 😊
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Shia early books all prove and establish the marriage between Omar (ra) and Umm Kulthum bint Ali (ra) but most of them today deny that it ever happened just like they deny the existence of the daughters of the Prophet (saw).