Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige ages in shia madhab before we move further
Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe
With that out of way now we can talk about the narration
There are two ways looking at it
1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule .
2. Shia perspective:
They will reject bukhari hadith as fabrication
And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young fornand will still accuse sunnis of clutching to bits and pieces.
Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted ?
Is that present in your books ??
And your kind of interpretation of that was true ,why does your fiqh say otherwise as i have demonstrated above .
the maths you failed understanding the point Fatimah (r.a) if e.g dhe was 6 at the time of proposal , and her daughter was 12 at the time umar proposed (assuming) , so the argument that she was young and so must be her daughter is a nonsense.It isn't on me ,in which book of logic it is written that to affirm an event occurred ,one requires to know the age of all the characters taking part in the event?
May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?
We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry , we don't know what was his age then , does it mean they didn't marry
My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?
But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator
The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar whom they have been projecting his great enemy
"Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige ages in shia madhab before we move further"
I follow the Qur'an and what goes with it. Books written by Shias or Sunnis can be looked at and examined. It's got nothing to do with the age factor. It's not just puberty that when a girl or a boy hits puberty then they can get married regardless of anything else been looked at and brought into account. Mental maturity and having basic sense and logic and understating about right and wrong and how to protect yourself and your rights along with knowing what is in your best interest and what is beneficial for you and what isn't also counts.
I do not believe that fathers or parents can marry off their daughters to whom ever they please as soon as they reach puberty without their consent and without them having the necessary knowledge and information about their rights and who they're getting themselves involved with and what they're getting themselves into.
"With that out of way now we can talk"
There is nothing in the way. So there's no need to get anything out of the way.
"Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature
if she is above 9 no problem.So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe"
First of all lets not take anything out of context. Put forward the actual material and lets have a look at it. Second is it compulsory on me as a Shia to accept and believe in every single thing a Shia Scholar has to say? It doesn't matter who said and what they said and why they said it I have to accept and believe it?
"1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule"
That's fine. I have no objection or beef with your perspective. But it's not compulsory on me to even accept any bit or piece of any Shia Scholar or book let alone having your perspective shoved down my throat.
"And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"
Ok, I'll look at the actual hadith. If you can put it forward then that will be good. Any idea about roughly what was the age of Fatima when Umar asked for her hand in marriage and the Prophet s.a.w replied "she is too young"?
If she didn't hit puberty at the time then Umar most definitely wouldn't be asking. And if you agree that her age was of puberty and the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young" then we'll have to accept that puberty ain't enough. Other factors also need to be looked at and brought into account when we speak about marriage.
Marriage is a serious business based on responsibility and commitment. A lot falls into it. And a lot needs to be considered. It's not just about puberty and sexual intercourse.
"Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted"
Are you saying the Shaykhain weren't interested? Forget about me don't you believe in the hadith? Have you got doubts about it? It's widely accepted, isn't it? Or is their a dispute amongst the Ahle Sunnah over it?
"May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?"
If Hani said that then that is being silly or getting silly based on it being a cheap response in a desperate attempt to keep up in an argument. I probably would expect that from these types of Sunnis.
"We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry"
No it doesn't mean that. This is exactly your problem that you want to start bringing in different meanings. My response is, is there a dispute over Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf's Nikah? Was there a known dispute over if Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf marrying so and so? If there was then there would be absolutely no harm in asking important questions relating to the argument. My response here is an example of technical ability when it comes to discussions.
"My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?"
My response, is it necessary for me to know or for you to ask? Is there a dispute amongst the Ummah of my great grandfather's marriage? That's another example of technical ability in discussions and debates. If there's a dispute then let me know where and by whom then I'll most definitely get you the dates. I'm well equipped. I've worked on myself over the years. Don't want to blow my own trumpet. I'm just a normal person.
"The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar whom they have been projecting his great enemy"
Imam e Masoom wasn't the father in law of Umar. The Prophet s.a.w did consider himself to be the father in law of Umar. So how would Nafs e Rassool be. (Anna wa aliyun min noor e wahid).
The fact of the matter is that this story like many others were created just as a counter argument to deny that there was any beef or unrest between the Ahle Baith and the Shaykhain.
And I say that with all due respect towards the Shaykhain and all the sahaba (raa).
"But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator"
My argument is based on a disputed matter and is asking questions related to and concerning the matter.
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January 22, 2015, 02:23:11 PM