Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

[TAHIR]

. Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige  ages in shia madhab before we move further"

I follow the Qur'an and what goes with it. Books written by Shias or Sunnis can be looked at and examined. It's got nothing to do with the age factor. It's not just puberty that when a girl or a boy hits puberty then they can get married regardless of anything else been looked at and brought into account. Mental maturity and having basic sense and logic and understating about right and wrong and how to protect yourself and your rights along with knowing what is in your best interest and what is beneficial for you and what isn't also counts.

I do not believe that fathers or parents can marry off their daughters to whom ever they please as soon as they reach puberty without their consent and without them having the necessary knowledge and information about their rights and who they're getting themselves involved with and what they're getting themselves into.
   

Ist of all ice man , you will today like to throw all shia schoarship out of bus ,don't tell me you are the only upholder of truth in entire shiasm and only you understood the Quran and sunnah . If you think parents can't give away their children in marraige according to shia madhab , their must be some scholars who support your opinion isn't it ??

Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth bring some scholars who say
1. Puberty is the necessary criteria for marraige in shia madhab
2. A father can't give away his daughter for marraige
The opposite of it i have already proven you ask for the sources khomanis quote is hanging above (already given a scan)
Khoei and tusi accompanying this post as attachments

[TAHIR]

We ahl u sunnah have a consensus that father can marry his daughter of he finds convinient
https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/178318
That's only assuming umm kulthum had not reached puberty yet which you have no evidence for .
I am attaching tusis quote
Where he says ,you can marry a women before she is a baligha without his father's permission , provided you don't plan intercourse if you plan that also then ask father's permission

[iceman]

Ist of all ice man , you will today like to throw all shia schoarship out of bus ,don't tell me you are the only upholder of truth in entire shiasm and only you understood the Quran and sunnah . If you think parents can't give away their children in marraige according to shia madhab , their must be some scholars who support your opinion isn't it ??

Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth bring some scholars who say
1. Puberty is the necessary criteria for marraige in shia madhab
2. A father can't give away his daughter for marraige
The opposite of it i have already proven you ask for the sources khomanis quote is hanging above (already given a scan)
Khoei and tusi accompanying this post as attachments

Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?

I haven't thrown all Shia scholars out of the bus. Vast majority of the Shia community and scholars do not believe in the tale you have put forward. What part of it you don't understand or don't want to understand?

I have never said that I'm the only upholder  of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.

When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:

“This matter of the marriage of Fatima, my daughter, is in the hands of Allah Himself, and He alone will select a spouse for her”.

Is this true. This is what I'm coming across.

Parents can give away their children since they are the ones closest to them. But with the approval and consent of the child. A lot of marriages have taken place and do even now take place based on tradition and culture of where you come from. Parents decide or have already decided. And pressure is put on some children if they think otherwise or object.

A lot of marriages take place based on emotional blackmail by the parents. They assume they know better who their child should spend the rest of their life with. Many parents have already decided that it's going to be their own nephew or niece. Just to strengthen and further their (parents) relationship with their (parents) siblings.

"Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"

It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place. And your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.

[TAHIR]

Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?

I haven't thrown all Shia scholars out of the bus. Vast majority of the Shia community and scholars do not believe in the tale you have put forward. What part of it you don't understand or don't want to understand?

I have never said that I'm the only upholder  of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.

When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:

“This matter of the marriage of Fatima, my daughter, is in the hands of Allah Himself, and He alone will select a spouse for her”.

Is this true. This is what I'm coming across.

Parents can give away their children since they are the ones closest to them. But with the approval and consent of the child. A lot of marriages have taken place and do even now take place based on tradition and culture of where you come from. Parents decide or have already decided. And pressure is put on some children if they think otherwise or object.

A lot of marriages take place based on emotional blackmail by the parents. They assume they know better who their child should spend the rest of their life with. Many parents have already decided that it's going to be their own nephew or niece. Just to strengthen and further their (parents) relationship with their (parents) siblings.

"Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"

It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place. And your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.

Ice man please bring some shia scholars before you make this age dramma or dig up the age of imm kulthum even before you make this argument

[TAHIR]

1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule"

That's fine. I have no objection or beef with your perspective. But it's not compulsory on me to even accept any bit or piece of any Shia Scholar or book let alone having your perspective shoved down my throat.
     

Do you know the idiot i am feeling about you , you don't believe in the hadith since it is in the Sunni hadith nonetheless you will make all your case by burrying shia hadith and framing an opinion over this hadith which you don't believe in
Mashallah mr . Technical debator   

[TAHIR]

.
Ok, I'll look at the actual hadith. If you can put it forward then that will be good. Any idea about roughly what was the age of Fatima when Umar asked for her hand in marriage and the Prophet s.a.w replied "she is too young"?

If she didn't hit puberty at the time then Umar most definitely wouldn't be asking. And if you agree that her age was of puberty and the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young" then we'll have to accept that puberty ain't enough. Other factors also need to be looked at and brought into account when we speak about marriage.

Marriage is a serious business based on responsibility and commitment. A lot falls into it. And a lot needs to be considered. It's not just about puberty and sexual intercourse.
   

Here is the hadith from Sunan nasai

خطب أبو بكرٍ وعمرُ رضِيَ اللهُ عنهما فاطمةَ ، فقال رسولُ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّمَ : إنها صغيرةٌ ، فخطبها عليٌّ فزوَّجها منه
Abu Bakr and Umar approached for marriage and prophet (s.a.w) said she is young , then Ali (r.a) came and he married her off to him

Nothing of age known start deducing your wilderness from the hadith you don't believe in

[TAHIR]

. Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted"

Are you saying the Shaykhain weren't interested? Forget about me don't you believe in the hadith? Have you got doubts about it? It's widely accepted, isn't it? Or is their a dispute amongst the Ahle Sunnah over it?     

who said shaykhayn whernt intrested i have no doubt over but i am asking you why will you believe in it
As far ase believing in it i have already explained the Sunni perspective over it

[TAHIR]

. Imam e Masoom wasn't the father in law of Umar. The Prophet s.a.w did consider himself to be the father in law of Umar. So how would Nafs e Rassool be. (Anna wa aliyun min noor e wahid).

The fact of the matter is that this story like many others were created just as a counter argument to deny that there was any beef or unrest between the Ahle Baith and the Shaykhain.

And I say that with all due respect towards the Shaykhain and all the sahaba (raa).
   

Turn blinkers on ,ignore authentic hadith of masoomeen ,the two heavy things that you boast often about today sometimes you take shelter in nasai hadith sometimes you play number games
And sometimes you .   Examine things well and turn things upside down

[TAHIR]

.
"But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator"

My argument is based on a disputed matter and is asking questions related to and     

Untill only few years before shias disputed over the preservation of Quran also, also imam al mehdi of shia is disputed between Shia and Sunni
Care to answer the following
 Who was nursing his mother when he was born
You shias dispute us on everything , why does that count
If you have authentic hadith please don't  come back saying statement of masoomeen are nothing

[TAHIR]

Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?

If i cant find a difference of opinion among scholars ,then yes everything they say is binding.and i am asking you the same question do some of your scholars make a sharp demarcation on age limit for marraige or even puberty for that matter?

.
I have never said that I'm the only upholder  of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.

When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
   

You didn't bring a unity (one opinion)  and asking me to bring majority
And why is that even relevant to you oh is it because their is one hadith on nasai which you don't believe in to start with?

. When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
 

1. Bring that Hadith
2. How is it relevant to you if it is a sunni hadith
3. I won't bother addressing your nonsensical deductions till then

.  Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"

It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place.   

Vast majority of shias don't follow their imams
Authentic statements you nasbees

.   your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.
 

Already refuted and you still bringing it up is a sign of your desperation.

[TAHIR]

And this bidhnillaha will end all excuses of ice man
He said
 

.This is something we strongly disagree with as well. The Prophet s.a.w did not marry Aisha at that young age. These are fabricated stories that have been created and brought about by certain individuals and characters just to deem it permissible to marry young and under age girls.
     

Nadir Zaveri puts beautifully on his website
//إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً
“The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله entered upon (had sexual intercourse with) `Aa’ishah when she was 10 years old, and that one doesn’t enter (upon) a jaariyah (girl) until she became a woman.”
Source:
1.       Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol.7, pg. 388, hadeeth # 1
2.       Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 6, ch. 91, pg. 251, hadeeth # 49
3.       Al-`Aamilee, Wasaa’il Al-Shee`ah, vol. 1, ch. 4, pg. 44, hadeeth # 75
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
è  Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235
2.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH Mawqoof (Authentic Halted)
è Milaadh Al-Akhyaa//

More comming soon

[TAHIR]

And here is another hadith
  منها : صحيحة الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ، قال : «إذا تزوّج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة ، فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»
Among them is :
Authentic hadith from halbi
Abi Abdillah (a.s) said
if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9
Two points here
1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman
So what more excuses are you going to pull out??

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=4703

[iceman]

https://youtu.be/AfW8dKe9q_o

[iceman]

And here is another hadith
  منها : صحيحة الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ، قال : «إذا تزوّج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة ، فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»
Among them is :
Authentic hadith from halbi
Abi Abdillah (a.s) said
if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9
Two points here
1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman
So what more excuses are you going to pull out??

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=4703

First is this the Qur'an you're mentioning or a clear cut Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w? Second the marraige of Umar ibn Al Khattab to Qalsoom binte Ali, is this in any of the six authentic books?

I don't need excuses or to make excuses. I don't believe the marriage took place. You believe it did. I'm questioning you about facts relating to the marriage and you're dodging them.

"if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9"

Small girl? Is she mature enough to know what's happening to her? What is she getting involved in? Does she know the responsibility and commitment that a marriage holds? It's common basic sense that if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage. Someone who can't even read and write properly is capable of marriage?

"1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman"

You put it forward so you can enjoy it. No taste for me here. I follow Qur'an and Sunnah and civilised society and the law of the land. Not traditional and cultural values with an Islamic label on them.

[iceman]

Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussain Al Milani also doesn't believe that this marriage took place.

https://www.al-islam.org/node/40380

[iceman]

In Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet s.a.w for his daughter, Lady Fatima hand the Prophet s.a.w replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that,.Qalsoom whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?

Secondly, Umar's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of.Qalsoom, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umar the Step-Great Grandfather of Qalsoom. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran.

Qalsoom  was the daughter of Ali Ibne Abi Talib. Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Qalsoom and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Qalsoom was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri. History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539

[iceman]

Historical evidences show that Fatima passed away 6 month after the demise of his father s.a.w and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Qalsoom, daughter of Ali was born in the year 9 Hijri. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546 - Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39

Then how is it possible for Qalsoom to be born after the death of Fatima if the Sunnis claim that she was married to Umar in the year 17 Hijri at an age of 4 or 5 years, that would put the date of birth as 12 or 13 Hijri, which is long after the death of her mother?! The Sunnis do not claim that she was 4 or 5 in the year 17 but 11 or 12.

Sunni historical evidence shows that Qalsoom (the so-called wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hassan , Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.

Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hassan was martyred in the year 50 Hijri..But then other references show that Qalsoom was present in Karbala during the year 61 Hijri.

[TAHIR]

.  First is this the Qur'an you're mentioning or a clear cut Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w?
   

It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam

.Second the marraige of Umar ibn Al Khattab to Qalsoom binte Ali, is this in any of the six authentic books?
     

Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith and however what should be relevant to you is , is the hadith in any of shia authentic books which we proved already.

don't need excuses or to make excuses. I don't believe the marriage took place. You believe it did. I'm questioning you about facts relating to the marriage and you're dodging them.

You didn't brought one point yet which i didn't answer if something is leftover bring it on.

.  Small girl? Is she mature enough to know what's happening to her? What is she getting involved in? Does she know the responsibility and commitment that a marriage holds? It's common basic sense that if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage. Someone who can't even read and write properly is capable of marriage?
   

This is authentic hadith from your imam al Masoom

.    .    if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage

Ice man you should rather say your imam has no sense of decency in saying this and your scholars have no sense that of decency in authenticating this is not from Sunni book this is from Shia book ,i had given the link also .

.   
You put it forward so you can enjoy it. No taste for me here. I follow Qur'an and Sunnah and civilised society and the law of the land. Not traditional and cultural values with an Islamic label on them. 

So imam al Masoom isn't  one among the thaqalayn any more
Is authentic ahadith from imam al masoom and act of marraige of prophet (s.a.w) with Aisha(r.a) as narrated authentically in al kafi not a sunnah
Think before speaking iceman, you are ripping apart shaiaism today

[TAHIR]

https://youtu.be/AfW8dKe9q_o

Not watching the video present the points here and we shall talk.

.   Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet s.a.w for his daughter, Lady Fatima hand the Prophet s.a.w replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that,.Qalsoom whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?
   

Already explained it ,the hadith doesn't say too young for them , rather it simply says she was young and i have already explained sunni perspective of understanding those narrations , why do you believe in this narration though ,sunni texts don't mean anything to you but mashallah you will frame an opinion about a hadith which you don't believe in .
For you al kafi shoulder have been a sufficient evidence,but you are only concerned what nasai says ,what mishkat says and they say nothing in your aid though such a pathetic your stubbornness is .

. Secondly, Umar's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of.Qalsoom, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umar the Step-Great Grandfather of Qalsoom. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran.
   

Rather it is you who have to prove impermssiblity burden of evidence is upon whom who makes the argument.
Ali married widow of Abu Bakr so she was step.mother of Aisha and Fatimah was daughter of Aisha (r.a) so Ali by your logic married his mother in laws mother ?

Note only blood relations and foster relations make marraige prohibited. Step sister stepol mother step grand daughter etc don't prove any relations .

. Qalsoom  was the daughter of Ali Ibne Abi Talib. Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Qalsoom and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Qalsoom was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri. History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
   

Already refuted nothing authentic here as already proven above, don't bother us with same quotes after we have refuted them once

[TAHIR]

.  Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussain Al Milani also doesn't believe that this marriage took place.

https://www.al-islam.org/node/40380
 

Al Milani is a hypocrite after acknowledgeing the hadith is authentic he turns blind eye to it
You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games.

.  Historical evidences show that Fatima passed away 6 month after the demise of his father s.a.w and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Qalsoom, daughter of Ali was born in the year 9 Hijri. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546 - Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39
   

You are a being idiot , where does it say she was born in 9 hijri ? In Bukhari ? Bring the hadith .
Did you forget what you said earlier

she was born 6. Hijri
..

Anything to deny this wow!!

Sunni historical evidence shows that Qalsoom (the so-called wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hassan , Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.

Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hassan was martyred in the year 50 Hijri..But then other references show that Qalsoom was present in Karbala during the year 61 Hijri.

No refrence who cares (for her being in karballaha or her dying in 50 hijri aor Ibn Abbas and sad Ibn Waqas offering funeral )