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Were the Imams scholars?

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zaid_ibn_ali

Were the Imams scholars?
« on: May 02, 2017, 08:59:34 PM »
Is it not the case that not all Imams are scholars?
Also do scholars not have works?
So were the Imams of ahle bayt pious knowledgable Imams rather than scholars?

Sheikh

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2017, 11:10:36 PM »
Not sure on all of them, but Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (ra) is one of the greatest scholars of the Ummah and taught many of our Imams (Imam Abu Hanifah and Imam Malik, and many others).


Imam Hassan (ra) is frequently considered the 5th rashidun Khalifa.

Rationalist

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2017, 01:40:29 AM »
The first eight were great scholars. The remaining in the 12er Shia books became imams at childhood and they died young so its hard to know what their ability of scholarship was.

omar111

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2017, 11:05:15 PM »
Imam Baqir was a great Sunni faqih and he is quoted more times in Sunni Hadith then Hzt Abubakr.
But his son, Imam Jaffar, was raised in a disturbing time.Abbasi rule was beginning and his uncles were rebelling and claiming headship of his family. In these times, Jaffar was less concerned with education and more with the politics of time. So at that time, ghullat took control of shiat.People like Zurarah were forging ahadith by him in kufa.
I am not a great fan of Imam Jaffar’s knowledge because he produced such jewels as



 (Al-Khisal of Shaykh Sadouq, vol. 1, p. 99).
حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عُمَرَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ جَبَلَةَ عَنْ حَنَانِ‏ بْنِ‏ سَدِيرٍ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع وَ عَلَيَّ نَعْلٌ سَوْدَاءُ فَقَالَ مَا لَكَ وَ لُبْسَ نَعْلٍ سَوْدَاءَ أَ مَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَالَ تُضْعِفُ الْبَصَرَ وَ تُرْخِي الذَّكَرَ وَ تُورِثُ الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْجَبَّارِينَ عَلَيْكَ بِلُبْسِ نَعْلٍ صَفْرَاءَ فَإِنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ قَالَ تُحِدُّ الْبَصَرَ وَ تَشُدُّ الذَّكَرَ وَ تَنْفِي الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ (ع).
"… Hanan ibn Sadir went to Imam Sadiq wearing black Na'layn (a kind of shoe with no ankle strap). Imam said to him, " why did you wear black Na'layn? Do not you know that that there are three harms in wearing black Na'layn? 1. The first one is that black Na'layn decrease eyesight and vision. 2. black Na'layn decrease sexuality. 3. And cause sadness, sorrow and unhappiness. From the other side, the black Na'layn are considered as oppressor's cloths ( 'Abbasid symbol). Better to wear yellow Na'layn,they increase vision,sexuality and causes happiness.

Strange that no Imam ever produced a Hadith or fiqh book. It was their duty as a spiritual leader to produce a guideline for ummah.There could be only one reason for this. That the Imams were not the divine guidance as claimed by Shias.It leaves forged Shia Ahadith, with even donkey as narrators!

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 12:26:03 PM »
Imam Baqir was a great Sunni faqih and he is quoted more times in Sunni Hadith then Hzt Abubakr.
But his son, Imam Jaffar, was raised in a disturbing time.Abbasi rule was beginning and his uncles were rebelling and claiming headship of his family. In these times, Jaffar was less concerned with education and more with the politics of time. So at that time, ghullat took control of shiat.People like Zurarah were forging ahadith by him in kufa.
I am not a great fan of Imam Jaffar’s knowledge because he produced such jewels as



 (Al-Khisal of Shaykh Sadouq, vol. 1, p. 99).
حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عُمَرَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ جَبَلَةَ عَنْ حَنَانِ‏ بْنِ‏ سَدِيرٍ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع وَ عَلَيَّ نَعْلٌ سَوْدَاءُ فَقَالَ مَا لَكَ وَ لُبْسَ نَعْلٍ سَوْدَاءَ أَ مَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَالَ تُضْعِفُ الْبَصَرَ وَ تُرْخِي الذَّكَرَ وَ تُورِثُ الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْجَبَّارِينَ عَلَيْكَ بِلُبْسِ نَعْلٍ صَفْرَاءَ فَإِنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ قَالَ تُحِدُّ الْبَصَرَ وَ تَشُدُّ الذَّكَرَ وَ تَنْفِي الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ (ع).
"… Hanan ibn Sadir went to Imam Sadiq wearing black Na'layn (a kind of shoe with no ankle strap). Imam said to him, " why did you wear black Na'layn? Do not you know that that there are three harms in wearing black Na'layn? 1. The first one is that black Na'layn decrease eyesight and vision. 2. black Na'layn decrease sexuality. 3. And cause sadness, sorrow and unhappiness. From the other side, the black Na'layn are considered as oppressor's cloths ( 'Abbasid symbol). Better to wear yellow Na'layn,they increase vision,sexuality and causes happiness.

Strange that no Imam ever produced a Hadith or fiqh book. It was their duty as a spiritual leader to produce a guideline for ummah.There could be only one reason for this. That the Imams were not the divine guidance as claimed by Shias.It leaves forged Shia Ahadith, with even donkey as narrators!

Is that narration from a shia source?

Even if the Imams themselves never complied works then how about their students? Apart from the likes of Abu Hanifah & Malik, no one else who studied with the Imams of ahle bayt compiled anything of any importance.
The latter quarter of the 12 Imams lived during the illustrious period of hadith & fiqh compilation, yet again neither they nor their students compiled anything noteworthy.
In fact I doubt the 9th, 10th & 11th Imams were scholars as the people of their time didn't study under them & their contribution is very minimal.
Kulayni, the qummi's didn't even study under the Imams of their time which is very odd as they settled to compile the weak works they authored, filled with unknowns.

If one looks at it objectionally without emotional attachment & bias then from the 9th -11th Imams you could conclude that they may have been pious sayyids but there is very little to support then being scholars let alone the divine guides to humanity.

Also the 4th Imam we know was mainly a secluded ascetic. He had knowledge but lived a secluded life. The 5th & 6th were well known & yes many took advantage of them to spread lies in their name.

I don't think the like if Abu Hanifa, malik & sufyan thawri were their inferiors or understudy's, but rather were their contemporaries & peers who were established Imams in their own right.

It begs the question, what if the Imams of ahle bayt had compiled works so we everyone would know their real views & opinions?

Its so frustrating that this never happened especially considering it was the golden age of scholarship.

Instead we are left with dubious works of characters like kulayni, qummis who didn't even study with any of the Imams of their time.

I feel the shias particularly dislike Abu hanifa as he was the 5th & 6th Imams contemporary but overtook them in terms of establishing a madhab & his fiqh became so widespread & famous. No doubt the shia are jealous of this.
Also their hatred of bukhari who compiled the most reliable work of hadith & overtook all his contemporaries including the Imams of ahle bayt of his time in the field of hadith.



« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 12:29:44 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Sheikh

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2017, 08:24:39 PM »
^ I can attest that Abu Hanifa is the least liked of the 4 Sunni Imams.


Even myself, who left Shi'ism, didn't even think about looking at Hanafi fiqh because of my hard-wired dislike.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

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Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2017, 10:24:23 AM »
Imam Baqir was a great Sunni faqih and he is quoted more times in Sunni Hadith then Hzt Abubakr.
But his son, Imam Jaffar, was raised in a disturbing time.Abbasi rule was beginning and his uncles were rebelling and claiming headship of his family. In these times, Jaffar was less concerned with education and more with the politics of time. So at that time, ghullat took control of shiat.People like Zurarah were forging ahadith by him in kufa.
I am not a great fan of Imam Jaffar’s knowledge because he produced such jewels as



 (Al-Khisal of Shaykh Sadouq, vol. 1, p. 99).
حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عُمَرَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ جَبَلَةَ عَنْ حَنَانِ‏ بْنِ‏ سَدِيرٍ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع وَ عَلَيَّ نَعْلٌ سَوْدَاءُ فَقَالَ مَا لَكَ وَ لُبْسَ نَعْلٍ سَوْدَاءَ أَ مَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَالَ تُضْعِفُ الْبَصَرَ وَ تُرْخِي الذَّكَرَ وَ تُورِثُ الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْجَبَّارِينَ عَلَيْكَ بِلُبْسِ نَعْلٍ صَفْرَاءَ فَإِنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ قَالَ تُحِدُّ الْبَصَرَ وَ تَشُدُّ الذَّكَرَ وَ تَنْفِي الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ (ع).
"… Hanan ibn Sadir went to Imam Sadiq wearing black Na'layn (a kind of shoe with no ankle strap). Imam said to him, " why did you wear black Na'layn? Do not you know that that there are three harms in wearing black Na'layn? 1. The first one is that black Na'layn decrease eyesight and vision. 2. black Na'layn decrease sexuality. 3. And cause sadness, sorrow and unhappiness. From the other side, the black Na'layn are considered as oppressor's cloths ( 'Abbasid symbol). Better to wear yellow Na'layn,they increase vision,sexuality and causes happiness.

Strange that no Imam ever produced a Hadith or fiqh book. It was their duty as a spiritual leader to produce a guideline for ummah.There could be only one reason for this. That the Imams were not the divine guidance as claimed by Shias.It leaves forged Shia Ahadith, with even donkey as narrators!

It begs the question, what if the Imams of ahle bayt had compiled works so we everyone would know their real views & opinions?

Its so frustrating that this never happened especially considering it was the golden age of scholarship.


Maybe cause their views would be seen as unpopular by the rest of the people? ;)
محور المقاومة والممانعة

omar111

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2017, 12:28:28 PM »
Imam Baqir was a great Sunni faqih and he is quoted more times in Sunni Hadith then Hzt Abubakr.
But his son, Imam Jaffar, was raised in a disturbing time.Abbasi rule was beginning and his uncles were rebelling and claiming headship of his family. In these times, Jaffar was less concerned with education and more with the politics of time. So at that time, ghullat took control of shiat.People like Zurarah were forging ahadith by him in kufa.
I am not a great fan of Imam Jaffar’s knowledge because he produced such jewels as



 (Al-Khisal of Shaykh Sadouq, vol. 1, p. 99).
حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عُمَرَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ جَبَلَةَ عَنْ حَنَانِ‏ بْنِ‏ سَدِيرٍ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع وَ عَلَيَّ نَعْلٌ سَوْدَاءُ فَقَالَ مَا لَكَ وَ لُبْسَ نَعْلٍ سَوْدَاءَ أَ مَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَالَ تُضْعِفُ الْبَصَرَ وَ تُرْخِي الذَّكَرَ وَ تُورِثُ الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْجَبَّارِينَ عَلَيْكَ بِلُبْسِ نَعْلٍ صَفْرَاءَ فَإِنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ قَالَ تُحِدُّ الْبَصَرَ وَ تَشُدُّ الذَّكَرَ وَ تَنْفِي الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ (ع).
"… Hanan ibn Sadir went to Imam Sadiq wearing black Na'layn (a kind of shoe with no ankle strap). Imam said to him, " why did you wear black Na'layn? Do not you know that that there are three harms in wearing black Na'layn? 1. The first one is that black Na'layn decrease eyesight and vision. 2. black Na'layn decrease sexuality. 3. And cause sadness, sorrow and unhappiness. From the other side, the black Na'layn are considered as oppressor's cloths ( 'Abbasid symbol). Better to wear yellow Na'layn,they increase vision,sexuality and causes happiness.

Strange that no Imam ever produced a Hadith or fiqh book. It was their duty as a spiritual leader to produce a guideline for ummah.There could be only one reason for this. That the Imams were not the divine guidance as claimed by Shias.It leaves forged Shia Ahadith, with even donkey as narrators!

Is that narration from a shia source?

Even if the Imams themselves never complied works then how about their students? Apart from the likes of Abu Hanifah & Malik, no one else who studied with the Imams of ahle bayt compiled anything of any importance.
The latter quarter of the 12 Imams lived during the illustrious period of hadith & fiqh compilation, yet again neither they nor their students compiled anything noteworthy.
In fact I doubt the 9th, 10th & 11th Imams were scholars as the people of their time didn't study under them & their contribution is very minimal.
Kulayni, the qummi's didn't even study under the Imams of their time which is very odd as they settled to compile the weak works they authored, filled with unknowns.

If one looks at it objectionally without emotional attachment & bias then from the 9th -11th Imams you could conclude that they may have been pious sayyids but there is very little to support then being scholars let alone the divine guides to humanity.

Also the 4th Imam we know was mainly a secluded ascetic. He had knowledge but lived a secluded life. The 5th & 6th were well known & yes many took advantage of them to spread lies in their name.

I don't think the like if Abu Hanifa, malik & sufyan thawri were their inferiors or understudy's, but rather were their contemporaries & peers who were established Imams in their own right.

It begs the question, what if the Imams of ahle bayt had compiled works so we everyone would know their real views & opinions?

Its so frustrating that this never happened especially considering it was the golden age of scholarship.

Instead we are left with dubious works of characters like kulayni, qummis who didn't even study with any of the Imams of their time.

I feel the shias particularly dislike Abu hanifa as he was the 5th & 6th Imams contemporary but overtook them in terms of establishing a madhab & his fiqh became so widespread & famous. No doubt the shia are jealous of this.
Also their hatred of bukhari who compiled the most reliable work of hadith & overtook all his contemporaries including the Imams of ahle bayt of his time in the field of hadith.
Yes, it is a Shia Hadith.Sheikh mufeed is most renowned Shia Imami scholar. Here is the link to the book, Hadith 50
 http://najafabadnews.ir/book/book/HADITH/khesaal_sadooq_07.html
 But this is not important as Shia cherry pick Ahadith, they reject most of them. But this Hadith is accepted by shias as sahi.
Shias are against Imam Abuhanifa; because Imam Jaffar, like most people of that time, was jealous of Abuhanifa popularity. He bashed Abuhanifa several times.
 
قال عليه السلام:
يا أبا حنيفة لقد ادعيت علماً -ويلك– ما جعل الله ذلك إلاّ عند أهل الكتاب الذين أُنزل عليهم، ويلك ما هو إلا عند الخاصّ من ذريّة نبيّنا صلى الله عليه وآله وما ورثك الله تعالى من كتابه حرفاً.


وسائل الشيعة، الحر العاملي، ج27، ص48
Imam Jaffar عليه السلام: Oh Abu Hanifa, you have claimed knowledge - woe to you - Allah has not given that except to the People of the Book to whom the Book has been revealed to, woe to you, for this is only for the chosen ones from the decendants of the Prophet (S) and Allah has not given you from the Book one letter
And such big words from a person who thinks wearing yellow sandals can improve health and cannot even recite Quran properly. In roza al kafi, he ruled that lime can hide nudity.

Quote
Maybe cause their views would be seen as unpopular by the rest of the people?
Why? How come people who were previously giving their lives and wealth for Islam, suddenly became the enemy of Islam? They destroyed the teachings of Ahlul Bayet, tortured them, disbelieved wilayet, but they somehow never altered the Quran?
The ghali Shia were the enemies of Islam. By creating shiaism, they weakened the Muslim ummah and portrayed the Sunni Ahlul bayet as rebels.


zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2017, 12:35:34 PM »
Imam Baqir was a great Sunni faqih and he is quoted more times in Sunni Hadith then Hzt Abubakr.
But his son, Imam Jaffar, was raised in a disturbing time.Abbasi rule was beginning and his uncles were rebelling and claiming headship of his family. In these times, Jaffar was less concerned with education and more with the politics of time. So at that time, ghullat took control of shiat.People like Zurarah were forging ahadith by him in kufa.
I am not a great fan of Imam Jaffar’s knowledge because he produced such jewels as



 (Al-Khisal of Shaykh Sadouq, vol. 1, p. 99).
حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عُمَرَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ جَبَلَةَ عَنْ حَنَانِ‏ بْنِ‏ سَدِيرٍ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع وَ عَلَيَّ نَعْلٌ سَوْدَاءُ فَقَالَ مَا لَكَ وَ لُبْسَ نَعْلٍ سَوْدَاءَ أَ مَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَالَ تُضْعِفُ الْبَصَرَ وَ تُرْخِي الذَّكَرَ وَ تُورِثُ الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْجَبَّارِينَ عَلَيْكَ بِلُبْسِ نَعْلٍ صَفْرَاءَ فَإِنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ قَالَ تُحِدُّ الْبَصَرَ وَ تَشُدُّ الذَّكَرَ وَ تَنْفِي الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ (ع).
"… Hanan ibn Sadir went to Imam Sadiq wearing black Na'layn (a kind of shoe with no ankle strap). Imam said to him, " why did you wear black Na'layn? Do not you know that that there are three harms in wearing black Na'layn? 1. The first one is that black Na'layn decrease eyesight and vision. 2. black Na'layn decrease sexuality. 3. And cause sadness, sorrow and unhappiness. From the other side, the black Na'layn are considered as oppressor's cloths ( 'Abbasid symbol). Better to wear yellow Na'layn,they increase vision,sexuality and causes happiness.

Strange that no Imam ever produced a Hadith or fiqh book. It was their duty as a spiritual leader to produce a guideline for ummah.There could be only one reason for this. That the Imams were not the divine guidance as claimed by Shias.It leaves forged Shia Ahadith, with even donkey as narrators!

It begs the question, what if the Imams of ahle bayt had compiled works so we everyone would know their real views & opinions?

Its so frustrating that this never happened especially considering it was the golden age of scholarship.


Maybe cause their views would be seen as unpopular by the rest of the people? ;)

That is a contradictory reply. Shia claim the 5th & 6th Imams taught many thousand students like a university. So I cannot accept your answer as valid.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2017, 12:43:07 PM »
Imam Baqir was a great Sunni faqih and he is quoted more times in Sunni Hadith then Hzt Abubakr.
But his son, Imam Jaffar, was raised in a disturbing time.Abbasi rule was beginning and his uncles were rebelling and claiming headship of his family. In these times, Jaffar was less concerned with education and more with the politics of time. So at that time, ghullat took control of shiat.People like Zurarah were forging ahadith by him in kufa.
I am not a great fan of Imam Jaffar’s knowledge because he produced such jewels as



 (Al-Khisal of Shaykh Sadouq, vol. 1, p. 99).
حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ عُمَرَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ جَبَلَةَ عَنْ حَنَانِ‏ بْنِ‏ سَدِيرٍ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع وَ عَلَيَّ نَعْلٌ سَوْدَاءُ فَقَالَ مَا لَكَ وَ لُبْسَ نَعْلٍ سَوْدَاءَ أَ مَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ قَالَ تُضْعِفُ الْبَصَرَ وَ تُرْخِي الذَّكَرَ وَ تُورِثُ الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْجَبَّارِينَ عَلَيْكَ بِلُبْسِ نَعْلٍ صَفْرَاءَ فَإِنَّ فِيهَا ثَلَاثَ خِصَالٍ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ مَا هِيَ قَالَ تُحِدُّ الْبَصَرَ وَ تَشُدُّ الذَّكَرَ وَ تَنْفِي الْهَمَّ وَ هِيَ مَعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْ لِبَاسِ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ (ع).
"… Hanan ibn Sadir went to Imam Sadiq wearing black Na'layn (a kind of shoe with no ankle strap). Imam said to him, " why did you wear black Na'layn? Do not you know that that there are three harms in wearing black Na'layn? 1. The first one is that black Na'layn decrease eyesight and vision. 2. black Na'layn decrease sexuality. 3. And cause sadness, sorrow and unhappiness. From the other side, the black Na'layn are considered as oppressor's cloths ( 'Abbasid symbol). Better to wear yellow Na'layn,they increase vision,sexuality and causes happiness.

Strange that no Imam ever produced a Hadith or fiqh book. It was their duty as a spiritual leader to produce a guideline for ummah.There could be only one reason for this. That the Imams were not the divine guidance as claimed by Shias.It leaves forged Shia Ahadith, with even donkey as narrators!

Is that narration from a shia source?

Even if the Imams themselves never complied works then how about their students? Apart from the likes of Abu Hanifah & Malik, no one else who studied with the Imams of ahle bayt compiled anything of any importance.
The latter quarter of the 12 Imams lived during the illustrious period of hadith & fiqh compilation, yet again neither they nor their students compiled anything noteworthy.
In fact I doubt the 9th, 10th & 11th Imams were scholars as the people of their time didn't study under them & their contribution is very minimal.
Kulayni, the qummi's didn't even study under the Imams of their time which is very odd as they settled to compile the weak works they authored, filled with unknowns.

If one looks at it objectionally without emotional attachment & bias then from the 9th -11th Imams you could conclude that they may have been pious sayyids but there is very little to support then being scholars let alone the divine guides to humanity.

Also the 4th Imam we know was mainly a secluded ascetic. He had knowledge but lived a secluded life. The 5th & 6th were well known & yes many took advantage of them to spread lies in their name.

I don't think the like if Abu Hanifa, malik & sufyan thawri were their inferiors or understudy's, but rather were their contemporaries & peers who were established Imams in their own right.

It begs the question, what if the Imams of ahle bayt had compiled works so we everyone would know their real views & opinions?

Its so frustrating that this never happened especially considering it was the golden age of scholarship.

Instead we are left with dubious works of characters like kulayni, qummis who didn't even study with any of the Imams of their time.

I feel the shias particularly dislike Abu hanifa as he was the 5th & 6th Imams contemporary but overtook them in terms of establishing a madhab & his fiqh became so widespread & famous. No doubt the shia are jealous of this.
Also their hatred of bukhari who compiled the most reliable work of hadith & overtook all his contemporaries including the Imams of ahle bayt of his time in the field of hadith.
Yes, it is a Shia Hadith.Sheikh mufeed is most renowned Shia Imami scholar. Here is the link to the book, Hadith 50
 http://najafabadnews.ir/book/book/HADITH/khesaal_sadooq_07.html
 But this is not important as Shia cherry pick Ahadith, they reject most of them. But this Hadith is accepted by shias as sahi.
Shias are against Imam Abuhanifa; because Imam Jaffar, like most people of that time, was jealous of Abuhanifa popularity. He bashed Abuhanifa several times.
 
قال عليه السلام:
يا أبا حنيفة لقد ادعيت علماً -ويلك– ما جعل الله ذلك إلاّ عند أهل الكتاب الذين أُنزل عليهم، ويلك ما هو إلا عند الخاصّ من ذريّة نبيّنا صلى الله عليه وآله وما ورثك الله تعالى من كتابه حرفاً.


وسائل الشيعة، الحر العاملي، ج27، ص48
Imam Jaffar عليه السلام: Oh Abu Hanifa, you have claimed knowledge - woe to you - Allah has not given that except to the People of the Book to whom the Book has been revealed to, woe to you, for this is only for the chosen ones from the decendants of the Prophet (S) and Allah has not given you from the Book one letter
And such big words from a person who thinks wearing yellow sandals can improve health and cannot even recite Quran properly. In roza al kafi, he ruled that lime can hide nudity.

Quote
Maybe cause their views would be seen as unpopular by the rest of the people?
Why? How come people who were previously giving their lives and wealth for Islam, suddenly became the enemy of Islam? They destroyed the teachings of Ahlul Bayet, tortured them, disbelieved wilayet, but they somehow never altered the Quran?
The ghali Shia were the enemies of Islam. By creating shiaism, they weakened the Muslim ummah and portrayed the Sunni Ahlul bayet as rebels.

You are basing your assertion that Jafar was jealous of Abu Hanifa on a shia report? Why?

My understanding is that they were contemporaries and shared a mutual respect as I have not seen one reliable sunni report that shows they had any animosity towards each other. In fact the reports indicate a mutual respect between Jafar, sufyan al thawri, Abu Hanifa & Malik.

Abu Hanifa also supported the imams of ahle bayt with fatwa in their uprisings.

I acknowledge that in particular the 5th & 5th Imams were very knowledgeable but the shia grossly exaggerated this.

They never established a madhab nor compiled any books of hadith or any work whatsoever nor did their students.

The standard of shia scholarship is much less than sunni. Thats just a fact.


Hani

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 07:52:28 PM »
I recall two authentic narrations from the books of Hadith where certain individuals from Ahlul-Bayt clearly state they've no divine knowledge and that they've had to rely on some Companions or Followers for knowledge.

The one I remember the most was from `Ali bin Husayn, he asked about Sa`id bin Jubayr and mentioned that Sa`id was very knowledgeable and that he benefited greatly from him in religious matters.

Reports like these make the truth really clear, not that `Ali bin Husayn is infallible, nobody believes that anyway except Twelvers and their evidence is weak; But it clarifies the epistemic nature of how Ahlul-Bayt acquired religious sciences (i.e similar to the rest of us).

As for abu Hanifah, I'm no Hanafi but believe it or not, the man was a genius and a mountain of knowledge.

« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 07:53:40 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2017, 05:34:25 AM »
^ I can attest that Abu Hanifa is the least liked of the 4 Sunni Imams.


Even myself, who left Shi'ism, didn't even think about looking at Hanafi fiqh because of my hard-wired dislike.
maybe because ottoman empire was the arch rival of safavid empire?

Rationalist

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 03:02:58 PM »
That's not the reason. There are more narration against him than the other 3 imams in the 12er Shia books. They believe he tried to cover up Ghadir.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Were the Imams scholars?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 03:41:15 PM »
Just as they hate Abu Bakr & Umar in particular, they also hate Abu Hanifah for the reason his fame became widespread.

Ironically, Abu Hanifah associated with a number of Imams of ahle bayt including Al Baqir, Zayd & Jafar.

It doesn't make sense that the Imams of ahle bayt would have any association with the likes of Abu Hanifa & Malik & have the beliefs shia want us to believe.

History testifies that Abu Hanifa & Malik were scholars & major faqihs yet the likes of zurarah, hisham ibn hakim etc are only classed as such by shia through fairytales & no authentic or surving academically/scholarly presence.

 

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