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What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.

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BULB

What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« on: December 22, 2016, 08:39:15 PM »
Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.

Quran: https://quran.com/3:91

Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1



zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2016, 08:53:37 PM »
...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 09:03:43 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Hani

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2016, 10:10:57 PM »
I don't see your point.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2016, 10:53:58 PM »
Another Rafidhi who's lost the plot.

Al Dukhan

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2016, 11:43:56 PM »
Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.

Quran: https://quran.com/3:91

Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1



Ofcourse "bulb" without light!
Hadith is indeed singular, no doubt, but verse of Quran is plural. Those who 'disbelieve is referring to shias' and "heap of gold ransom referring to qums"!
According to my analysis, but Allah knows best.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2016, 12:15:52 AM »
I think what the op is alluding to is that the Quran says not even the earth's gold will ransom the disbeliever yet Umar says he wishes he had the world's gold to ransom himself on the final day.


Husayn

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2016, 04:44:43 AM »
It's sad how the entire deen of the rawafidh is simply to twist the Qur'an and Ahadith to suit their evil sectarian needs.

I can see how OP's verse will be taken as firm proof by the average Rafidhi.

We can turn around and state quite simply that 'Umar (RA) states this as he is dying due to his imaan and fear of Allah (SWT), which quite clearly negates him being a disbeliever (a disbeliever dies not believing or fearing Allah (SWT), which is what the ayah is referring to).

But will the rafidhi mind accept such explanations? Doubtful.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

BULB

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2016, 06:41:13 AM »
Hmm. .. so the standard mode of action here is 'when you cannot refute ,resort to personal insults.'

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2016, 08:35:29 AM »
Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.

Quran: https://quran.com/3:91

Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1

There is also other ayahs you can use to prove he's a kaafir, like the ayah about raising ur voices in front of the Prophet (saw)
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

Farid

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2016, 12:26:58 PM »
Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.

Quran: https://quran.com/3:91

Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1

There is also other ayahs you can use to prove he's a kaafir, like the ayah about raising ur voices in front of the Prophet (saw)

Does Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala refer to Kuffar by, "O you who believe?" =]

"O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another..."

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2016, 01:23:15 PM »
A fair person would look at context of the Quranic verse.
Talking above the Prophet (SAW) would be disrepectful in any normal situation.
When someone is on their deathbed, how can the people in the room not speak louder than the person dying? The people would not be able to hear eachother if they spoke quiter than the person dying.
A dying person's voice would be faint.
I thought they taught logic in the hawzas??

muslim720

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2016, 03:48:58 PM »
Hmm. .. so the standard mode of action here is 'when you cannot refute ,resort to personal insults.'

The standard, short-fused bulb, is for the Shia to always half-quote hadiths.  Here is the entire narration and then you tell me if you agree with it verbatim.

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:
When 'Umar was stabbed, he showed signs of agony.  Ibn 'Abbas, as if intending to encourage 'Umar, said to him, "O Chief of the believers!  Never mind what has happened to you, for you have been in the company of Allah's Apostle and you kept good relations with him and you parted with him while he was pleased with you.  Then you were in the company of Abu Bakr and kept good relations with him and you parted with him (i.e. he died) while he was pleased with you.  Then you were in the company of the Muslims, and you kept good relations with them, and if you leave them, you will leave them while they are pleased with you."  'Umar said, (to Ibn "Abbas), "As for what you have said about the company of Allah's Apostle and his being pleased with me, it is a favor, Allah did to me; and as for what you have said about the company of Abu Bakr and his being pleased with me, it is a favor Allah did to me; and concerning my impatience which you see, is because of you and your companions.  By Allah! If (at all) I had gold equal to the earth, I would have ransomed myself with it from the Punishment of Allah before I meet Him."

Why, short-fused bulb, are you displeased with someone whom the Prophet (saw) was pleased with?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

BULB

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2016, 08:32:53 PM »
@muslim720 Your ikhlaq is commendable, nothing surprising considering the people you follow. BibiFatima as died angry with Umar and Abu Bakr. Prophet Muhammad saw clearly said who displeased Fatima as has displeased me. Then how can the Prophet saw and subsequently Allah be pleased with Umar. It's quite simple if you think of it.

@zaid ibn Ali.  When someone is at the deathbed usually people try to mantain peace around him and respect his wishes . I thought simple etiquettes were taught every where! But not surprising you come up with this logic. After all this is what Umar did when Prophet saw was at his death bed and asked to write down a will, you know better than me what Umar did.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2016, 09:18:12 PM »
So how would the people be able to understand eachother when at someone's deathbed? The person dying is weak. So if no one can raise their voice higher than the person dying, what are they supposed to do? Whisper? Sign language?

BULB

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2016, 10:01:48 PM »
So how would the people be able to understand eachother when at someone's deathbed? The person dying is weak. So if no one can raise their voice higher than the person dying, what are they supposed to do? Whisper? Sign language?

Duhhh. This wasn't what I had in mind when I started this thread, that I will have to give basic etiquette lessons !! Here you go

Peaceful Environment: Keep the room quiet, lower the lighting if you can, ask people to speak softly, no loud noises, no harsh lights, and just as importantly, no harsh words in the room.

http://onthewaytodying.com/sitting-vigil-at-a-death-bed-a-checklist/

Another important thing: IF THE DYING PERSON ASKS FOR PEN AND PAPER TO WRITE A WILL DO NOT REFUSE.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2016, 10:59:14 PM »
Was Ali in the room?

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2016, 12:08:04 AM »
Was Ali in the room?

When Abu bakr wrote his last will?
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2016, 12:34:28 AM »
Was Ali in the room?

When the prophet (SAW) was on his deathbed. When Umar spoke. Was Ali there?

When Abu bakr wrote his last will?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2016, 01:04:44 AM »
So why didn't Ali say or do something if Umar disrespected the prophet (SAW) & why did he not let the will be written?

muslim720

Re: What do sunnis think of this? Umar died a non believer.
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2016, 01:26:53 AM »
@muslim720 Your ikhlaq is commendable, nothing surprising considering the people you follow.

You mean akhlaq?  And what exactly did I say which was lacking on "ikhlaq"?

[qoute]BibiFatima as died angry with Umar and Abu Bakr. [/quote]

You can keep your fabricated grievances of Fatima (ra) in your back pocket and cry to them every night.  Hopefully, your tears would be enough for you to drown in, for all I care!

Quote
Prophet Muhammad saw clearly said who displeased Fatima as has displeased me. Then how can the Prophet saw and subsequently Allah be pleased with Umar. It's quite simple if you think of it.

Actually, it is not so simple as you "think of it".  Had you thought about what you were saying, you would have realized that the whole phrase regarding anyone angering Fatima (ra) angers the Prophet (saw) backfires on you when we consider the following:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Abdullah Jafar Al-Sadiq: A miserable of the miserables came to Fatima, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and said to her: “Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control, for Allah has ordained that women be jealous and that men perform Jihad, and He has made the reward of the patient (woman) similar to that of the Murabit and Muhajir in the way of Allah.

He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence. Ali came to his residence and did not see Fatima and his anguish increased and became great on him, even though he did not know what happened, and he was ashamed to call her from her father’s house so he went to the Masjid and prayed as much as Allah willed, and he collected some of the sand in the Masjid and laid on it.

When the Prophet saw how sad and anguished Fatima was, he poured water over himself and wore his clothes and entered the Masjid. He kept praying, making Rukoo and Sujood, and after every time he completed two Raka he made Du’a that Allah remove what Fatima had of sadness and anguish because he left her turning over and breathing heavily. When the Prophet saw that she could not sleep and could not rest he said: “O daughter, rise!” So she rose and the Prophet carried Al-Hassan and she carried Al-Hussain and took hold of Umm Kulthoom’s hand until they reached Ali (AS) while he was sleeping.

The Prophet put his foot on Ali, pinched him, and said: “Rise Abu Turab! You have disturbed many a resting person. Call for me Abu Bakr from his house and Umar from his Majlis and Talha.” So Ali went and got them from their houses and they gathered around the Messenger of Allah.

The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then as if he has disturbed her after my death.”

(source: Ibn Babveh Al Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; also narrated in Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202)

And this one:
“When Fatima asked for Fadak from Abu Bakr and he refused to give it to her, she returned full of anger that could not be described and she was sick; and she was angry with Ali because he refused to help her.” (Al-Majlisi’s Haqq-ul-Yaqeen, pp.203-204; also recorded in Al-Tusi’s Amali, p.295)
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

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