TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: BULB on December 22, 2016, 08:39:15 PM
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Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.
Quran: https://quran.com/3:91
Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1
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...
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I don't see your point.
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Another Rafidhi who's lost the plot.
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Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.
Quran: https://quran.com/3:91
Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1
Ofcourse "bulb" without light!
Hadith is indeed singular, no doubt, but verse of Quran is plural. Those who 'disbelieve is referring to shias' and "heap of gold ransom referring to qums"!
According to my analysis, but Allah knows best.
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I think what the op is alluding to is that the Quran says not even the earth's gold will ransom the disbeliever yet Umar says he wishes he had the world's gold to ransom himself on the final day.
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It's sad how the entire deen of the rawafidh is simply to twist the Qur'an and Ahadith to suit their evil sectarian needs.
I can see how OP's verse will be taken as firm proof by the average Rafidhi.
We can turn around and state quite simply that 'Umar (RA) states this as he is dying due to his imaan and fear of Allah (SWT), which quite clearly negates him being a disbeliever (a disbeliever dies not believing or fearing Allah (SWT), which is what the ayah is referring to).
But will the rafidhi mind accept such explanations? Doubtful.
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Hmm. .. so the standard mode of action here is 'when you cannot refute ,resort to personal insults.'
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Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.
Quran: https://quran.com/3:91
Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1
There is also other ayahs you can use to prove he's a kaafir, like the ayah about raising ur voices in front of the Prophet (saw)
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Here is the evidence that proves Umar died a nonbeliever.
Quran: https://quran.com/3:91
Hadith: http://bit.ly/2h4b8s1
There is also other ayahs you can use to prove he's a kaafir, like the ayah about raising ur voices in front of the Prophet (saw)
Does Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala refer to Kuffar by, "O you who believe?" =]
"O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another..."
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A fair person would look at context of the Quranic verse.
Talking above the Prophet (SAW) would be disrepectful in any normal situation.
When someone is on their deathbed, how can the people in the room not speak louder than the person dying? The people would not be able to hear eachother if they spoke quiter than the person dying.
A dying person's voice would be faint.
I thought they taught logic in the hawzas??
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Hmm. .. so the standard mode of action here is 'when you cannot refute ,resort to personal insults.'
The standard, short-fused bulb, is for the Shia to always half-quote hadiths. Here is the entire narration and then you tell me if you agree with it verbatim.
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:
When 'Umar was stabbed, he showed signs of agony. Ibn 'Abbas, as if intending to encourage 'Umar, said to him, "O Chief of the believers! Never mind what has happened to you, for you have been in the company of Allah's Apostle and you kept good relations with him and you parted with him while he was pleased with you. Then you were in the company of Abu Bakr and kept good relations with him and you parted with him (i.e. he died) while he was pleased with you. Then you were in the company of the Muslims, and you kept good relations with them, and if you leave them, you will leave them while they are pleased with you." 'Umar said, (to Ibn "Abbas), "As for what you have said about the company of Allah's Apostle and his being pleased with me, it is a favor, Allah did to me; and as for what you have said about the company of Abu Bakr and his being pleased with me, it is a favor Allah did to me; and concerning my impatience which you see, is because of you and your companions. By Allah! If (at all) I had gold equal to the earth, I would have ransomed myself with it from the Punishment of Allah before I meet Him."
Why, short-fused bulb, are you displeased with someone whom the Prophet (saw) was pleased with?
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@muslim720 Your ikhlaq is commendable, nothing surprising considering the people you follow. BibiFatima as died angry with Umar and Abu Bakr. Prophet Muhammad saw clearly said who displeased Fatima as has displeased me. Then how can the Prophet saw and subsequently Allah be pleased with Umar. It's quite simple if you think of it.
@zaid ibn Ali. When someone is at the deathbed usually people try to mantain peace around him and respect his wishes . I thought simple etiquettes were taught every where! But not surprising you come up with this logic. After all this is what Umar did when Prophet saw was at his death bed and asked to write down a will, you know better than me what Umar did.
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So how would the people be able to understand eachother when at someone's deathbed? The person dying is weak. So if no one can raise their voice higher than the person dying, what are they supposed to do? Whisper? Sign language?
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So how would the people be able to understand eachother when at someone's deathbed? The person dying is weak. So if no one can raise their voice higher than the person dying, what are they supposed to do? Whisper? Sign language?
Duhhh. This wasn't what I had in mind when I started this thread, that I will have to give basic etiquette lessons !! Here you go
Peaceful Environment: Keep the room quiet, lower the lighting if you can, ask people to speak softly, no loud noises, no harsh lights, and just as importantly, no harsh words in the room.
http://onthewaytodying.com/sitting-vigil-at-a-death-bed-a-checklist/
Another important thing: IF THE DYING PERSON ASKS FOR PEN AND PAPER TO WRITE A WILL DO NOT REFUSE.
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Was Ali in the room?
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Was Ali in the room?
When Abu bakr wrote his last will?
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Was Ali in the room?
When the prophet (SAW) was on his deathbed. When Umar spoke. Was Ali there?
When Abu bakr wrote his last will?
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So why didn't Ali say or do something if Umar disrespected the prophet (SAW) & why did he not let the will be written?
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@muslim720 Your ikhlaq is commendable, nothing surprising considering the people you follow.
You mean akhlaq? And what exactly did I say which was lacking on "ikhlaq"?
[qoute]BibiFatima as died angry with Umar and Abu Bakr. [/quote]
You can keep your fabricated grievances of Fatima (ra) in your back pocket and cry to them every night. Hopefully, your tears would be enough for you to drown in, for all I care!
Prophet Muhammad saw clearly said who displeased Fatima as has displeased me. Then how can the Prophet saw and subsequently Allah be pleased with Umar. It's quite simple if you think of it.
Actually, it is not so simple as you "think of it". Had you thought about what you were saying, you would have realized that the whole phrase regarding anyone angering Fatima (ra) angers the Prophet (saw) backfires on you when we consider the following:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Abdullah Jafar Al-Sadiq: A miserable of the miserables came to Fatima, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and said to her: “Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control, for Allah has ordained that women be jealous and that men perform Jihad, and He has made the reward of the patient (woman) similar to that of the Murabit and Muhajir in the way of Allah.
He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence. Ali came to his residence and did not see Fatima and his anguish increased and became great on him, even though he did not know what happened, and he was ashamed to call her from her father’s house so he went to the Masjid and prayed as much as Allah willed, and he collected some of the sand in the Masjid and laid on it.
When the Prophet saw how sad and anguished Fatima was, he poured water over himself and wore his clothes and entered the Masjid. He kept praying, making Rukoo and Sujood, and after every time he completed two Raka he made Du’a that Allah remove what Fatima had of sadness and anguish because he left her turning over and breathing heavily. When the Prophet saw that she could not sleep and could not rest he said: “O daughter, rise!” So she rose and the Prophet carried Al-Hassan and she carried Al-Hussain and took hold of Umm Kulthoom’s hand until they reached Ali (AS) while he was sleeping.
The Prophet put his foot on Ali, pinched him, and said: “Rise Abu Turab! You have disturbed many a resting person. Call for me Abu Bakr from his house and Umar from his Majlis and Talha.” So Ali went and got them from their houses and they gathered around the Messenger of Allah.
The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then as if he has disturbed her after my death.”
(source: Ibn Babveh Al Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; also narrated in Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202)
And this one:
“When Fatima asked for Fadak from Abu Bakr and he refused to give it to her, she returned full of anger that could not be described and she was sick; and she was angry with Ali because he refused to help her.” (Al-Majlisi’s Haqq-ul-Yaqeen, pp.203-204; also recorded in Al-Tusi’s Amali, p.295)
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Wow, you really came prepared. Did you notice how in the forefront of your references was History of Tabari? Allow me to share with you the introduction of Tabari because I know you have never seen the volume in your life.
"I shall likewise mention those (narrators) who came after them, giving additional information about them. I do this so that it can be clarified whose transmission (of traditions) is praised and whose information is transmitted, whose transmission is to be rejected and whose transmission is to be disregarded…The reader should know that with respect to all I have mentioned and made it a condition to set down in this book of mine, I rely upon traditions and reports which have been transmitted and which I attribute to their transmitters. I rely only very rarely upon (my own) rationality and internal thought processes. For no knowledge of the history of men of the past and of recent men and events is attainable by those who were not able to observe them and did not live in their time, except through information and transmission produced by informants and transmitters. This knowledge cannot be brought out by reason or produced by internal thought processes. This book of mine may contain some information mentioned by me on the authority of certain men of the past, which the reader may disapprove of and the listener may find detestable, because he can find nothing sound and no real meaning in it. In such cases, he should know that it is not my fault that such information comes to him, but the fault of someone who transmitted it to me. I have merely reported it as it was reported to me."
You are looking at pages 100-something and did not know that the introduction refutes your entire paradigm. Same applies for all your other sources. However, it is good to know that you have nothing to offer in response to Imam Ali (ra) angering Fatima (ra).
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So you're saying the prophet (SAW) issued a command for a pen & paper to write his will & Ali failed to carry out this task?
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Lol only tabari? There is at least 30 other sources there ;)
That is your best source because Al-Kamil fi al-Tarikh (by Ibn Athir) was sourced from History of Tabari. The rest of your "historical references" are as pathetic as your existence.
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lol , I've seen this website quote these books when writing an article, sunnis will use these books if it's works for them, if it works against them, then it magically becomes unreliable! Come up with better excuses bro, ur own youth are having nightmares reading these narrations and the whole "weak narrations" excuse just doesn't cut it for them
First of all, please do not refer to me as "bro". We have nothing in common; neither religion nor country. Secondly, do not project your cowardice on us! It is your habit to weaken your own books or parts thereof if they weaken your position. This is why two-thirds of Al-Kafi is said to be weak. We, on the other hand, have openly and proudly declared two of our books as "sahihain" (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim). Do you have a case against us from them?
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So according to you Ali failed to carry out the command of the prophet (SAW)
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So according to you Ali failed to carry out the command of the prophet (SAW)
No bro, the sahaba argued amongst each other and The Prophet (saw) kicked them out, these are all tests from Allah
Did the prophet (SAW) live after this day? Did anyone stop him writing anything after this day? Did Ali write it down on his order after this day?
If it was so important i'm sure it would have been done.
Unless you are suggesting the Prophet (SAW) failed to convey the message? Ali failed too?
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Huh so you're saying the Prophet (SAW) failed to convey this revelation?
Then call me a kafir? The irony.
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@muslim720 Fabricated grievances. Lol... I didn't know Bukhari was fabricated. Thank you for the inside info. :D
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Now you know that Imam Ali (ra) angered Fatima (ra) and hopefully you will no longer parrot "he who angers Fatima angers me" without contemplation.
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Now you know that Imam Ali (ra) angered Fatima (ra) and hopefully you will no longer parrot "he who angers Fatima angers me" without contemplation.
Of course I know who did.
Fatima became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him and did not talk to him until she died… When she died, her husband Ali buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself.” (Sahih Bukhari 5.59.546) According to Sahih Bukhari, Aisha also said, “Fatima, the daughter of Allah’s Apostle got angry ans stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude until she died.” (Sahih Bukhari 4.53.325)
;D
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Fatima became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him and did not talk to him until she died…
Oh no, you got me. I hope you don't have any evidence to support your claim.
When she died, her husband Ali buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself.” (Sahih Bukhari 5.59.546) According to Sahih Bukhari, Aisha also said, “Fatima, the daughter of Allah’s Apostle got angry ans stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude until she died.” (Sahih Bukhari 4.53.325)
No way! You have proof! I don't know how to answer.........except we have been doing this since you were busy slapping your face on Ashura.
The narrations you have quoted both fall under the issue of Fadak. Therefore, if you read the full narration and its explanation, it becomes clear that Fatima (ra) stopped speaking to Abu Bakr (ra) regarding Fadak. In other words, Fatima (ra) stopped mentioned Fadak to Abu Bakr (ra); it does not state that she completely cut ties with him.
As for her burial, the Prophet (saw) was also buried at night. What is your point?
Here is where you are hypocrite. You have made "he who angers Fatima angers me" a cornerstone of your belief system but you ignore another authentic Prophetic narration, existing in both Shia and Sunni texts, which says "Prophets do not leave inheritance". While they are both Prophetic sayings, you are strict with the former but very lapse with the latter. We, on the other hand, look at both simultaneously and give both equal value.
The Prophet (saw) said that Prophets (asws) do not leave inheritance. Abu Bakr (ra) upheld that Prophetic saying. If that angers Fatima (ra) then that is just too bad. Fatima's (ra) reaction makes her look bad, not Abu Bakr (ra)....though we do not believe that the whole misunderstanding was as dramatic as your lot believes it was so as to warrant an imaginary khutbah (Khutbah Fadak, a story which has weak chains) and other gymnastics.
Again, to twist that knife stuck in your heart a bit more, Abu Bakr (ra) was upon the Sunnah in regards to Fadak. If that upsets you, tough luck!
;D
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It's true that she didnt speak to him specifically regarding Fadak.
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Wow after centuries of lying to keep their sect afloat, mr bulb has come up with a game changer argument...........AGAIN by using half hadiths
No wonder it's a small and a miserable sect built on lies and abuses and will remain small to be finished at end times by imam Mahdi himself.......aaah the IRONY......Alhamdulillah