Welcome to the boards.
I hope your time here will be a beneficial and entertaining one.
Entertaining? You think religion is a game? I asked a question, answer it if you can't let someone else do it. What is the system of government in Islam?
Khilafah or some kind of shari'ah in place.Shariah=Laws
Khilafah or some kind of shari'ah in place.Shariah=Laws
Khalifa=political position
You have not answered the question read it carefully, What is the system of government in Islam?
Khilafa is a verb, which means succession, how does it work?Khilafah or some kind of shari'ah in place.Shariah=Laws
Khalifa=political position
You have not answered the question read it carefully, What is the system of government in Islam?
Khilafah = Islamic government
Shari'ah = Islamic laws
The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in. Whatever laws and constitutions are chosen, must always respect divine laws and adhere to them.So you make it up, making you astray from the Quran and the Sunnah. "whatever people choose"
Why would I be astray?Do you read the Quran? If you did: One you wouldn't have said that "whatever people choose", and two you would have known why you are astray.
That's a weak Istidlal, doesn't conflict with what I said. Tfaddal, show me how im wrong by elaborating.First you prove you are astray from the Quran and Sunnah and that you haven't read the Quran, second you are crossing the red line by saying the "istidlal is weak" which is saying Aya is weak, which is saying the Words of Allah the merciful are weak and the Quran. Astaghfir allah.
It depends on what country you're in.
The Islamic Republic of Iran is an elected dictatorship.
The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a democracy.
The Islamic State of Iraq and Sham is a terrorist organization.
All 3 governments call themselves Islamic and yet they are quite different from each other.
Or did you mean to ask about Islamic governments of the past? For the majority of the time, the Ummah has had some sort of Caliph from the Rashidun (rightly guided) to the Ummayyads (harsh & sometimes corrupt) to the Fatimids (Shias) to the Ottomans (Turkish).
Istidlal is weak doesn't mean that the text quoted is not authentic or divine, it means you are quoting a text that does not support or prove your point.
I will stick (word for word) to what I said in reply#8 until you elaborate and explain why I have went astray.
When you're done with that, please go ahead and explain to us what is the current system of government in Shiasm.
Chill, akhi. =]Oh trust me, you'll find out when It's my turn to answer. Right now, it is your duty and the rest of the Sunnis/wahabis to tell me about the system of government of Islam. I thought Sunnis had all the answers and shia are the "kuffar"?
We are not your enemies here. I, for one, am very open minded to your point of view.
Would you mind explaining to Hani (and the rest of us) how Al Nisa 59 is relevant to the discussion?
I will explain to you why you are astray, which is the same answer to your second question and answer after you tell me the system of government of Islam.
I am going to repeat my question, what is the system of government in Islam?
Akhi, with all due respect, Islam is a religion and way of life, not a country. You can't reduce all of Islam to a form of government. There have been Islamic governments of the past and present just as there have been Christian governments of the past. But Christianity is a religion, not a country. Islam is also a religion and not a country.Oh you have made a grave mistake. "In our secular lives we obey our secular leaders", the Aya says WALI AL AMR (one person who is in authority) not AWLEEA AL AMR (plural, leaders in authority). I thought you said the Aya supports you?
Your ayat actually supports our position. In our daily lives we obey Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh) and in our secular lives we obey our secular leaders insofar as that they don't ask us to go against Islam. I got a speeding ticket a few weeks ago and I paid it. The Qur'an doesn't have a speed limit for me to drive, but "those in authority" over here do, and so I paid my fine and obeyed them in not continuing to drive fast.
The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in. Whatever laws and constitutions are chosen, must always respect divine laws and adhere to them.
I will explain to you why you are astray, which is the same answer to your second question and answer after you tell me the system of government of Islam.
I am going to repeat my question, what is the system of government in Islam?
Review reply#8 to learn about the system of government in Islam.
After you read reply#8 and learned about it, please provide your current system of government in Islam.
The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in. Whatever laws and constitutions are chosen, must always respect divine laws and adhere to them.
1)whatever the people choose....what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?
^ The world does not have a single leader.I do not know what is wrong with you, I am talking about Islam you talk about the world. ISLAMMMMMM not countries. Who is supposed to lead muslims? and what is their system of government? and yes run away because my last comment shook you. Allah knows what my next one will do to you.
The United States has Obama.
Canada has Harper.
Saudi Arabia has Salman.
Iran has Khamenei.
Unless you're into conspiracy theories about some "new world order", each country has their own leader.
Anyways, I'm out. I won't feed the troll any more. Please debate with Hani and Farid. You might learn something.
Edit: "what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?"
Well. In my country, we vote. Ergo, the people choose by voting. In other countries there isn't any voting and so the (majority of) people don't choose. What's your point?
/out for real this time
The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in. Whatever laws and constitutions are chosen, must always respect divine laws and adhere to them.
1)whatever the people choose....what is your proof that the system of government is whatever people choose?
Because the Prophet (saw) gave really broad guidelines about the system of governance, responsibilities of leaders and responsibility of subjects.
Due to the HUGE room he (saw) gave us, we can easily say that the system can be developed by the people and improved with time. Whatever chosen system must respect divine laws and adhere to Islamic rulings based on the sincere Ijtihad of the people.
I have to go now, we'll see what you come up with a few hours later.
I will leave this to Hani, since he likes these topics.
Though, I just want to point out that the verse doesn't say: Wali Al Amr.
It says: Ooli Al Amr.
It falls into the plural category.
See here for grammatical breakdown of the verse: http://www.al-eman.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%84%20%D9%81%D9%8A%20%D8%A5%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86/%D8%A5%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A2%D9%8A%D8%A9%20%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%85%20(59):/i410&d402495&c&p1
^ I'm not running away. I'm actually having a lot of fun with you. It's just that I know that my comments are diverting attention away from the real debate where Hani will do exceptionally well. I am not a solid debator like he is.
Your comment didn't shake me. Islam is a religion, not a country. Islam does not currently have a government. There is no Muslim Pope running an Islamic Vatican. Islam does not have a government. Unless you can point me to a country named "Islam" that has a system of government your argument is pointless.
What you are trying to do is get someone to say that Khilafah is an Islamic form of government and then you will point out some of the mistakes of the early Caliphate and tout that Imamate is better. We already know your arguments. We are just trying to get you to make your arguments so we can have a discussion. You keep jumping up and down like you have some sort of magical enlightenment that is somehow missing from us wretched "Wahhabis" but you also keep refusing to share your enlightenment.
So, beloved guest, can you please explain what is your view of an Islamic government? Hani has already explained that governments are just set up for whatever works best in that time period and location. You seem unhappy with that, so perhaps you can give us your ideas on how government can be better and more Islamic?
Trust me, your ideas are just as valid as ours. The Prophet (pbuh) didn't give us a codified constitution and written rule of law for the entire world. Therefore, government is set up by people, fallible as they may be, in a way that works in their place and time.
Again, I am not running away. You have not "shaken" me or anything of the sort. I simply wish to stop being a distraction. So I will exit.
May Allah guide us all.
^1)Yeah I do have a proof which you are ignorant of, our beloved Prophet Muhammed (sal allah alayh wa aleh wasalam). He was a religion AND political leader.
"In a religion you need a leader". A political leader? Can you prove this?
"Shia have Qur'an and Sunnah". I thought it was Quraan and Ahlul Bayt? Did the Shia World Congress get together and change their religion again?
"The government is not set up by fallible people". Can you show me any government, apart from the government of Madinah in the time of the Prophet, that was set up by infallible leaders?
What is the system of government in Islam?
What is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).What is the system of government in Islam?
Its definitely not the system where the Imam is hiding in a cave for a thousand years & is useless to the people.
Funny enough, Iran is following the sunni concept of a council choosing what they deem to be a righteous person who is human & not infallible/masoom.
In the end shia still have to elect a leader like sunni's do.
Your imamate collapsed when your Imam hid in a cave.
^1-The prophet s.a.a.w.w. is not dead, you are ignorant. This is my last reply because people like you don't even deserve attention.
1.) The Prophet (pbuh) died a long time ago. I thought we were talking about Islamic government now. Or did you change the topic?
2.) No. The Ahlul Bayt followed the Sunnah. You seem to be mixing up the two terms. Sunnah means tradition. Ahlul Bayt means people of the house. Brushing your teeth before prayer is a Sunnah, it is not an Ahlul Bayt.
3.) You just said in your last post that there can't be a government of fallible people. Now you are saying that there can't be a government of infallible people. What is there left? I don't think that you understand that a government is made up of people.
I will ignore your insults since they come directly from Iranian tv. You most likely don't know what a frontal lobe is. But, there is something I have to question. I tried to leave the thread earlier but you accused me of running away and kept dragging me back in. Now you want me to leave. Why do you keep shifting your positions? Are you the best defender that Shi'ism has to offer? =/
Okay explain to me how the system is developed/started, and how it is improved
how the people choose the leader
how do you know a person or “leader” is mujtahid and his level of ijtihad?
2-The sunnah of the prophet is Hadith Althqalayn, leaving the book of Allah and Ahlul bayt a.s., who ever follows them will never be lost.
I will explain to you why you are astray, which is the same answer to your second question and answer after you tell me the system of government of Islam.
What is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).
Okay explain to me how the system is developed/started, and how it is improved
I can't believe you're seriously asking this question on a forum, it's like asking someone how to engineer a submarine on a public forum, the answer being many volumes of mathematics and physics etc... The question can be directed to qualified men of law and expert jurists.
When `Umar created the Diwan and established it as a system to spend on certain deserving categories of people in the Islamic state, this system was not available in Abu Bakr's reign. Therefore, this is how that form of government improved and evolved. Keep in mind that the method of producing and organizing the Diwan was never stated in any Islamic divine text, it was human effort, Islam did not dictate a specific system for this.how the people choose the leader
Depends on the system in place. In some countries leadership is inherited, in others a council of experts chooses, in others all people vote and choose etc... Obviously the contitution needs to specify what are the qualifications for a person to run and be selected in the first place. An Islamic state can place the rule that the Imam must always be Muslim.how do you know a person or “leader” is mujtahid and his level of ijtihad?
You mean a jurist or scholar? Scholars are usually recognized by all other scholars and laypeople in their areas. I don't think society with its learned men and educated scholars will have any issues figuring out if a man is a scholar. In the US, there are presidential debates for instance, these are televised and each nominee is judged by the expert panel and the people.
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.QuoteWhat is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).
It is the election of a leader by a council/shura.
Before you look to 'refute' this, think of all the shia governments & movements i.e Iran, hezbollah, etc.
They all have a council who chooses a normal human being.
Are they unislamic too in your view?
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.QuoteWhat is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).
It is the election of a leader by a council/shura.
Before you look to 'refute' this, think of all the shia governments & movements i.e Iran, hezbollah, etc.
They all have a council who chooses a normal human being.
Are they unislamic too in your view?
I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader.
Do you agree with this or not?
If you don't agree then why do all shia have a council who elects their leader in present times?
Why are the shia using the sunni method?
You keep misunderstanding what everyone is saying. As it has been said earlier the system varies depending on the circumstances of the time. Sometimes it's inheritance, sometimes it's consultation and sometimes it's appointment. When it was said that the system is "whatever people choose" it doesn't necessarily mean it's what every last citizen of the Islamic State opts for.Oh trust me I know EXACTLY what you said and YOU know exactly what I SAID. You are just spinning around because your answer either say the legitimacy of khalifate of Umar and Uthman are illegitimate because they were not voted, or if you want to change your answer from Shura to something else, you have sacrificed abu bakr and said HIS khalifate is illegitimate.
Side question: why are Shiites so obsessed with politics in Islam? A set system of governance was never emphasized by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) so why do you people keep raving about it?
Hani, a few others and I have said that there is no ser system of government (or choosing leaders) as long as nothing is violated in the Shari'ah of course. We never necessitated that it had to be shura, rather, that it is one of the ways that a leader can be chosen. Also, who says shura has to be by scholars?Also, who says shura has to be by scholars? <--- Your friend hani and zaid ibn Ali did. Read previous comments.
Abu Bakr didn't just choose the leader. He referred to senior sahabis (including Ali) before choosing Umar. Abu Bakr doesn't need anyone's authority to choose the leader anyways, he's the Caliph.
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.QuoteWhat is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).
It is the election of a leader by a council/shura.
Before you look to 'refute' this, think of all the shia governments & movements i.e Iran, hezbollah, etc.
They all have a council who chooses a normal human being.
Are they unislamic too in your view?
I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader.
Do you agree with this or not?
If you don't agree then why do all shia have a council who elects their leader in present times?
Why are the shia using the sunni method?
"I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader."
EXACTLY! If Shura is the method, How come Abu Bakr gave the authority to Omar who then gave it to Uthman?That means abu bakr went against the shura since he chose a leader without the elections of the council making the leadership and khalifates, of Omar and Uthman illegitimate because they WERE NOT voted?
At the beginning of Jumada al-Ukhra (13 AH), Abu Bakr caught a fever and its intensity continued unabated for a fortnight. When he grew sure of his last hours drawing near, he sent for Abdur Rahman bin Awf and held consultation (Shura) with him regarding the Caliphate…following this, he called Uthman bin Affan and put the same question to him. He (Uthman) said in reply: “Umar’s internal self is better than his external one; he is superior to us all.” When Ali was consulted, he made almost the same answer. Then came Talhah…(http://i.imgur.com/XIj9mK8.png)
(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, pp.312-313)
During the process of Shura, it was only Abdur Rahman bin Awf (رضّى الله عنه) and Talhah (رضّى الله عنه) who raised any objections to Umar (رضّى الله عنه) , but then Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) countered these points of contention, and then Abdur Rahman (رضّى الله عنه) and Talhah (رضّى الله عنه) both agreed with Abu Bakr’s rebuttal, so the matter was settled. As for Uthman (رضّى الله عنه) and Ali (رضّى الله عنه) , they both favored Umar (رضّى الله عنه) .
Therefore, we have established that the principle of Shura was very much involved in the nomination of Umar (رضّى الله عنه) ; the prominent representatives–including all the major figures of the Ansars and Muhajirs–selected Umar (رضّى الله عنه) after mutual consultation. Furthermore, Umar (رضّى الله عنه) secured the “consent of the governed”. We read:
…[Abu Bakr] said addressing this audience:
“I have not appointed any relative of mine as Caliph, and I have not installed Umar as Caliph on my own. I have rather done it only after holding consultations with men of sound judgment. Are you then agreed to his being your Caliph?”
Hearing this, they (the masses) said: “We all agree with your choice and opinion.”
Following this, he (Abu Bakr) said: “You should then carry out Umar’s orders and obey him.”
(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, pp.313-314)
Your whole religion is a joke "people choose whatever they want". Now, to answer your question I told you I Don't care about governments you have your frontal lobe damaged, a donkey would have understood by now but you seem to not. I said I Don't care about governments, khameni rahimahullah or the dictator of saudi arabia I don't care about government positions, I am talking about I Slam Islam Islam Islam Islam Islam.
Sahih Muslims 1474: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) liked sweet (dish) and honey. After saying the afternoon prayer he used to visit his wives going close to them. So he went to Hafsa and stayed with her more than what was his usual stay. I ('A'isha) asked about that. It was said to me: A woman of her family had sent her a small vessel of honey as gift, and she gave to the messenger of Allah s.w. from that a drink. I said: By allah we will lie to him.
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو كُرَيْبٍ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ وَهَارُونُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أُسَامَةَ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُحِبُّ الْحَلْوَاءَ وَالْعَسَلَ فَكَانَ إِذَا صَلَّى الْعَصْرَ دَارَ عَلَى نِسَائِهِ فَيَدْنُو مِنْهُنَّ فَدَخَلَ عَلَى حَفْصَةَ فَاحْتَبَسَ عِنْدَهَا أَكْثَرَ مِمَّا كَانَ يَحْتَبِسُ فَسَأَلْتُ عَنْ ذَلِكَ فَقِيلَ لِي أَهْدَتْ لَهَا امْرَأَةٌ مِنْ قَوْمِهَا عُكَّةً مِنْ عَسَلٍ فَسَقَتْ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم مِنْهُ شَرْبَةً فَقُلْتُ أَمَا وَاللَّهِ لَنَحْتَالَنَّ لَهُ
The prophet s.a.a.w.w. said: Sahih bukhari 1291: I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "Ascribing false things to me is not like ascribing false things to anyone else. Whosoever tells a lie against me intentionally then surely let him occupy his seat in Hell-Fire."
دَّثَنَا أَبُو نُعَيْمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ عُبَيْدٍ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ رَبِيعَةَ، عَنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ " إِنَّ كَذِبًا عَلَىَّ لَيْسَ كَكَذِبٍ عَلَى أَحَدٍ، مَنْ كَذَبَ عَلَىَّ مُتَعَمِّدًا فَلْيَتَبَوَّأْ مَقْعَدَهُ مِنَ النَّارِ
You think that’s bad? It gets worse just wait for it. These Ayat came down on Aisha and Hafsa because of their honey and lying incident. At’tahrim 4: If you two [wives] repent to Allah , [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you, would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ ﴿4﴾ عَسَى رَبُّهُ إِن طَلَّقَكُنَّ أَن يُبْدِلَهُ أَزْوَاجًا خَيْرًا مِّنكُنَّ مُسْلِمَاتٍ مُّؤْمِنَاتٍ قَانِتَاتٍ تَائِبَاتٍ عَابِدَاتٍ سَائِحَاتٍ ثَيِّبَاتٍ وَأَبْكَارًا
صدق الله العلي العظيم
WHICH MEANS THAT AISHA AND HAFSA ARE THE OPPOSITE OF EXACTLY EVERY ATTRIBUTE ALLAH MENTIONED!!!!!!! You don’t think the hadith is about them? Let’s go to bukhari again. Sahih bukhari 5267: I heard `Aisha saying, "The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay for a long while with Zanab bint Jahsh and drink honey at her house. So Hafsa and I decided that if the Prophet (ﷺ) came to anyone of us, she should say him, "I detect the smell of Maghafir (bad smell) in you. Have you eaten Maghafir?' " So the Prophet (ﷺ) visited one of them and she said to him similarly. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Never mind, I have taken some honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but I shall never drink of it anymore." So there was revealed: 'O Prophet ! Why do you ban (for you) that which Allah has made lawful for you . . . If you two (wives of Prophet) turn in repentance to Allah,' (66.1-4) addressing Aisha and Hafsa. 'When the Prophet (ﷺ) disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives.' (66.3) namely his saying: But I have taken some honey."