Why are Shia refusing to debate Farid? The Video will explain!

[MuslimK]

Why are Shia refusing to debate Farid? The Video will explain!

[muslim720]

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

I have the answer. Remember the first, or second, Bayat al Ghadeer video produced in conjunction with Kalam from Titans TV?  When the floor was opened for questions, brother Hani posed the first question.  I do not remember the exact details but by design or mistake, the Shias focus on pixels, not the overall picture.  Their own presented proof actually backfired against them so when brother Hani pointed out their blunder to them, Raza could barely get a response out which no honest or impartial person could take as a satisfactory response to brother Hani's objection.  Right after, brother Farid posed a question/observation.  Another blunder by the Bayat al Ghadeer team, another quick scramble and again Raza (if I'm not mistaken) managed to utter a few words in what I saw as another incoherent response.  The part that shook Raza, Syed Ali and the "23 year old kid" Shia BladeRunner to their core was that in spite of having them on their backfoot backed up in a corner, brothers Hani and Farid spared them by politely thanking Kalam and the Bayat al Ghadeer team for the opportunity to pose their questions and state their observations.  It is like they were spared to experience greater humiliation in the upcoming days.  At that moment in time, not knowing that The Sunni Defense would launch its own refutation videos, I knew the Bayat al Ghadeer team did not want to cross paths with brothers like Hani and Farid, ever!  You could see the relief on Raza's face when brothers Hani and Farid thanked them (for having been selected to ask questions) and walked away rather than pressing Bayat al Ghadeer further on the issue.  Had they been pressured and if the discussion was dragged out, you would have seen the entire Bayat al Ghadeer team crumble to pieces.

[MuslimAnswers]

^

It would be good/better if brothers Hani and Farid did something like a refutation of Abdul Hussayn Musawi's Muraajaat on a larger scale - there are some audios by Farid tucked away on this TSN site, but a larger scale with the floor open for counter-points by Shias in the comments, etc. would be more productive.

After all, we do not know who these Bayat al-Ghadeer people are and they seem to be naive juveniles (and other Shias will definitely say: "Oh we don't know who these people are, they DON'T represent us Shias!") while Mr. Abdul Hussayn's book is so very well-known, is published and promoted by every Shia center and every Shia down to the person will give it as a "present" to Sunnis whenever there is the slightest argument. We know of other books like this also like Peshawar Nights, etc., so concentrating on these would be good and more productive, along with presenting how and why Sunnis think the way we do and consider Shia arguments unpersuasive and frankly not interesting.

[muslim720]

It would be good/better if brothers Hani and Farid did something like a refutation of Abdul Hussayn Musawi's Muraajaat on a larger scale

It would be even better if Minhaj us-Sunnah and Tohfa Ithna Ashariya are translated from Arabic and Urdu (respectively) into English.  It is a shame for the Saudis (they are full of shameful deeds) to have invested so much in anti-Shia movements but have failed to invest in linguists to translate Minhaj us-Sunnah into English.

[Ijtaba]

Salaam.

The topic of debate chosen by Farid is that Shias have to prove that The Imamate of the Twelve Imams is divine whereas he (i.e. Farid) would prove The Imamate of the Twelve Imams is man-made and not divine.

Now, what I want to know is what according to Farid have Shias to provide for proving that Concept of Twelver Shia Imamah is correct? For e.g.

01. The condition that all Imams are chosen by ALLAH (SWT) by the tongue of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) verbally as well as textual evidence by Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) writing a Will in which names of all 12 divinely chosen Imams have been mentioned.

02. The condition that there will be only 12 Imams and not more nor less.

03. The condition that all 12 Imams would be from Quraysh only and not from any other tribe.

04. The condition that all 12 Imams have to be Ma'sum i.e. Protected by ALLAH (SWT)

If there are some more conditions which I have missed please let me know. And all of the conditions mentioned above must be proven from:

a) Quran only,
b) Hadiths only, or
c) both Quran & Hadiths

Lastly, I have a question.

I want to know Ahlul Sunnah's view on following hadiths:

- hadith stating there will be 12 Ameers after Prophet (s.a.w.w) whereby Islam would be triumphant/dominant and all of those 12 Ameers would be from Quraysh.

- hadith stating Ruler could only be from Quraysh and not from any other tribe.

I had asked this question before but did not get satisfactory answer. First hadith is saying Islam will remain as long as there would come 12 Rulers and all of those 12 Rulers would be from Quraysh. But as can be seen there have more than 12 rulers i.e. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Imam Ali (a.s), Banu Umayya & Banu Abbas as well as Rulers from tribes other than Quraysh i.e. Turks (Ottomans)

[muslim720]

I had asked this question before but did not get satisfactory answer. First hadith is saying Islam will remain as long as there would come 12 Rulers and all of those 12 Rulers would be from Quraysh. But as can be seen there have more than 12 rulers i.e. Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Imam Ali (a.s), Banu Umayya & Banu Abbas as well as Rulers from tribes other than Quraysh i.e. Turks (Ottomans)

Wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

You have put a spin on the hadith.  The Prophet (saw) said, "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs."  Compare that with your own words, "Islam will remain as long as there would come 12 rulers".

[Ijtaba]

Wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

You have put a spin on the hadith.  The Prophet (saw) said, "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs."  Compare that with your own words, "Islam will remain as long as there would come 12 rulers".

My mistake.

It should be "This matter (i.e. Islam) will not end until the passing of twelve caliphs." 

http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

[muslim720]

My mistake.

It should be "This matter (i.e. Islam) will not end until the passing of twelve caliphs." 

http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

You, I believe, have missed the core of the article you quote.  The point is that if you read all the narrations (regarding the 12 leaders), in other words, if you contextualize the matter, you walk away with a different understanding than what the Shias ascribe to it.  Also, I cannot find any reference which places the words "i.e. Islam" in parentheses after the phrase, "this matter".  I only found Al-Islam.org (a Shia website) referencing it as, "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs."  Source: https://www.al-islam.org/twelve-successors-holy-prophet-sayyid-murtadha-al-askari/narrations-holy-prophet-s-stipulating

Leaving your interpolations aside, the narrations do not make it clear whether these 12 will be continuous or not.  It also does not say that the world will end immediately after they have ruled.  Rather, it says that the world will never end until all 12 have ruled and we know that apart from Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra), none of the Imams (ra) ruled.

[Ijtaba]

You, I believe, have missed the core of the article you quote.  The point is that if you read all the narrations (regarding the 12 leaders), in other words, if you contextualize the matter, you walk away with a different understanding than what the Shias ascribe to it.  Also, I cannot find any reference which places the words "i.e. Islam" in parentheses after the phrase, "this matter".  I only found Al-Islam.org (a Shia website) referencing it as, "This matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs."  Source: https://www.al-islam.org/twelve-successors-holy-prophet-sayyid-murtadha-al-askari/narrations-holy-prophet-s-stipulating

"...By studying the above chains from the Saheehain, we come to the conclusion that the correct variation that is attributed to Jabir bin Samura is not the shortened form and that the included words are: twelve, caliphs, and state of glory. All of these narrations also mention that they will all be from Quraish. The words “matter/religion/Islam” all suggest the same meaning and may have all been used by Jabir bin Samura since they were all narrated by his students in various Hadiths".

http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

Leaving your interpolations aside, the narrations do not make it clear whether these 12 will be continuous or not.  It also does not say that the world will end immediately after they have ruled.  Rather, it says that the world will never end until all 12 have ruled and we know that apart from Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra), none of the Imams (ra) ruled.

- So what's the significance of the number 12?

- You are saying after the rule of 12 Rulers the world will not end immediately but would still exist then what would happen to the matter/religion/Islam after the ruling of 12 Rulers? 

[zaid_ibn_ali]

The problem is that the sunni hadith of 12 came BEFORE the ithna ashari sect conjured up their imaginary 12th Imam. They were fully aware of this hadith amongst the masses of the muslims i.e sunnis. So how convenient to then decide oh yeh our 11th Imam had a hidden son so this would fulfill in their view the notion of 12 rulers.

They had to conjure this moment of convenience as they were stuck on 11th Imam with no successors.

[muslim720]

"...By studying the above chains from the Saheehain, we come to the conclusion that the correct variation that is attributed to Jabir bin Samura is not the shortened form and that the included words are: twelve, caliphs, and state of glory. All of these narrations also mention that they will all be from Quraish. The words “matter/religion/Islam” all suggest the same meaning and may have all been used by Jabir bin Samura since they were all narrated by his students in various Hadiths".

Please read the very first comment posted by TS with all the variations in the narration of Jabir bin Samura (ra).  The variations mention "matter", "religion" and "Islam" but not in the way you were suggesting because you were resting the existence and survival of Islam (by inserting that word in brackets following the word "matter") on the 12 leaders.

The irony of it is that you can insert meanings into the text but you seem to overlook the fact that the person reporting from the Prophet (saw) did not hear him properly - which is clearly stated in the text - so he had to seek clarification thereby making it so vague that many sects, other than yours, have used this message for their own propagation.

- So what's the significance of the number 12?

Nothing except that Islam would remain in a state of glory until 12 leaders have ruled.

- You are saying after the rule of 12 Rulers the world will not end immediately but would still exist then what would happen to the matter/religion/Islam after the ruling of 12 Rulers? 

Allahu Aalim!  Does your religion teach you what would have happened had the 12 Imams (ra) ruled?  What the world would have been like if people had accepted the leadership of the Imams (ra)?  For what we know, the 12 leaders may have came and gone or they may have yet to come or some of them ruled while others will rule in the future.  Does not matter!  The point is that the religion would remain triumphant until all 12 have ruled.

[Ijtaba]

Please read the very first comment posted by TS with all the variations in the narration of Jabir bin Samura (ra).  The variations mention "matter", "religion" and "Islam" but not in the way you were suggesting because you were resting the existence and survival of Islam (by inserting that word in brackets following the word "matter") on the 12 leaders.

The irony of it is that you can insert meanings into the text but you seem to overlook the fact that the person reporting from the Prophet (saw) did not hear him properly - which is clearly stated in the text - so he had to seek clarification thereby making it so vague that many sects, other than yours, have used this message for their own propagation.

According to you in the hadith what "matter" is being referred to?

Nothing except that Islam would remain in a state of glory until 12 leaders have ruled.

Allahu Aalim!  Does your religion teach you what would have happened had the 12 Imams (ra) ruled?  What the world would have been like if people had accepted the leadership of the Imams (ra)?  For what we know, the 12 leaders may have came and gone or they may have yet to come or some of them ruled while others will rule in the future.  Does not matter!  The point is that the religion would remain triumphant until all 12 have ruled.

May I know why did the Prophet (s.a.w.w) restrict the glory of Islam to only 12 rulers for Muslim Ummah have been ruled by many rulers?

[muslim720]

According to you in the hadith what "matter" is being referred to?

Why does it matter what according to me the hadith is referring to when it says, "The matter..."?  If Allah (swt) and His Prophet (saw) cannot convince you, how can I?

May I know why did the Prophet (s.a.w.w) restrict the glory of Islam to only 12 rulers for Muslim Ummah have been ruled by many rulers?

Why do you even bother to entertain yourself with such questions?  A bigger question you should ask is why do you force your own understanding on this hadith, restrict the 12 leaders to your own set of identities or individuals and then place them above, and ahead of, Prophets (asws)?

[Ijtaba]

Why does it matter what according to me the hadith is referring to when it says, "The matter..."?  If Allah (swt) and His Prophet (saw) cannot convince you, how can I?

Why do you even bother to entertain yourself with such questions?  A bigger question you should ask is why do you force your own understanding on this hadith, restrict the 12 leaders to your own set of identities or individuals and then place them above, and ahead of, Prophets (asws)?

ALLAH (SWT) and His Prophet (s.a.w.w) cannot convince me? Convince me what? I asked you about the word, " matter" in the hadith... what is it referring to? Because when reading many variations of hadith I came to conclusion that word, "matter" refers to Islam. You differed with me... it was due to your differing from my opinion I asked for your viewpoint/opinion.

Why shouldn't I entertain such question? Muslim Ummah has been ruled by many rulers... and Prophet (s.a.w.w) specifically numbered rulers to 12. I only asked the reason for this i.e. numbering the rulers to 12 out of (assuming) 60 rulers.

[Ijtaba]

The problem is that the sunni hadith of 12 came BEFORE the ithna ashari sect conjured up their imaginary 12th Imam. They were fully aware of this hadith amongst the masses of the muslims i.e sunnis. So how convenient to then decide oh yeh our 11th Imam had a hidden son so this would fulfill in their view the notion of 12 rulers.

They had to conjure this moment of convenience as they were stuck on 11th Imam with no successors.

And may I know those 12 who are being mentioned in the sunni hadith? Didn't any Sahaba ask Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) who these 12 individuals from Quraysh were who were to become Rulers of Muslim Ummah? And why should people from Quraysh tribe rule Muslim Ummah? Why can't Ethiopian black slave become ruler of Muslim Ummah? Didn't Islam come to abolish superiority of race, family, status? I thought a person has fadhilat due to his Taqwa and not due to his lineage?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

And may I know those 12 who are being mentioned in the sunni hadith? Didn't any Sahaba ask Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) who these 12 individuals from Quraysh were who were to become Rulers of Muslim Ummah? And why should people from Quraysh tribe rule Muslim Ummah? Why can't Ethiopian black slave become ruler of Muslim Ummah? Didn't Islam come to abolish superiority of race, family, status? I thought a person has fadhilat due to his Taqwa and not due to his lineage?

Shia restrict it much more than quraysh. They say only Ali’s offspring!
So please spare the whole what about non arabs, blacks, etc.

The hadith does not say rulers can only ever be from quraysh unconditionally. It just mentions there will be 12 from quraish.
It does not say there will be no other rulers than these ever.
We all know the greatest period of Islam was the first three generations. The caliphs during this period were all from Quraysh lineage.
The hadith does not say all these 12 leaders will be righteous.
The number 12 was not significant in shi’ism until the ithna asharis 11th Imam had no successor so they moulded a made up 12th Imam to fit this known hadith amongst the muslims at the time.

[muslim720]

I asked you about the word, " matter" in the hadith... what is it referring to? Because when reading many variations of hadith I came to conclusion that word, "matter" refers to Islam. You differed with me... it was due to your differing from my opinion I asked for your viewpoint/opinion.

I did not differ with you due to your opinion of the word "matter" meaning "Islam".  I differed with you on you selecting one particular variation of the hadith and then inserting the word "Islam" in its text, suggesting it to be the only meaning for the word "matter", thereby painting a very lopsided picture far from the message the hadith wishes to convey.

Why shouldn't I entertain such question? Muslim Ummah has been ruled by many rulers... and Prophet (s.a.w.w) specifically numbered rulers to 12. I only asked the reason for this i.e. numbering the rulers to 12 out of (assuming) 60 rulers.

The Prophet (saw) specified a timeline for the triumph of the religion which coincides with the rule of 12 leaders.  In other words, the purpose of this hadith is to highlight a time period, not to identify 12 leaders.  The problem with your sect, and tens of other sects, is that you latch on to the latter claim when that is not the objective of this hadith.

And may I know those 12 who are being mentioned in the sunni hadith?

As previously stated, this narration has nothing to do with the identities of the 12 leaders; it specifies a timeline for Islam being triumphant.  People may have compiled lists of who these leaders may be but they are all speculations, at best.

Didn't any Sahaba ask Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) who these 12 individuals from Quraysh were who were to become Rulers of Muslim Ummah?

Exactly my point!  If the Sahaba (ra) did not ask the Prophet (saw) to name these 12 leaders then it shows that the identity of these individuals was the main objective.  Hence, as I said, the purpose of this hadith is to highlight a certain time period, not to identify 12 leaders.

Didn't Islam come to abolish superiority of race, family, status?

...and that is where you shot yourself in the foot!  Yes, Islam came to do away with race, family and status which is why the concept of Imamah is absurd in the light of this particular Islamic objective.  Name me one Qur'anic Prophet (asws) who came to people saying that they should revere and admire his family (ra) - a selected special few - over all other humans, including other Prophets (asws).

[Ijtaba]

Shia restrict it much more than quraysh. They say only Ali’s offspring!
So please spare the whole what about non arabs, blacks, etc.

Yes, we Twelver Shias believe that Imam Ali (a.s) & Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) are chosen ones and their eleven offspring are
also chosen ones.

I asked about fadhilat because I wanted to know Ahlul Sunnah's perspective i.e. whether they also believe in a concept where one family or tribe has fadhilat over others... such as Shias believe that Aimmah Masumeen (a.s) can only come from the children of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a). So like us, do Ahlul Sunnah also believe that Ameers (Rulers) are restricted to the tribe of Quraysh only?

The hadith does not say rulers can only ever be from quraysh unconditionally. It just mentions there will be 12 from quraish.
It does not say there will be no other rulers than these ever.
We all know the greatest period of Islam was the first three generations. The caliphs during this period were all from Quraysh lineage.
The hadith does not say all these 12 leaders will be righteous.

- I wanted to know that how is Islam in state of glory by having unrighteous ruler(s)?

- The hadith never mentioned any ruler apart from 12 Rulers. The hadith clearly mentioned 12 rulers from Quraysh and never hinted to other rulers from other tribes.

The number 12 was not significant in shi’ism until the ithna asharis 11th Imam had no successor so they moulded a made up 12th Imam to fit this known hadith amongst the muslims at the time.

Is this the main reason Twelver Shias made-up Twelve Imams tale? Its hard to imagine. If Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) had no successor then its more reasonable that they should had stopped at Eleventh Imam (a.s) like Seveners Shias (who stopped at Seventh Imam a.s) As Twelvers disagree with Ahlul Sunnah on many things they could have disagreed on this issue also by saying that there would be only Eleven Aimmahs and/or Ameers (Rulers) and the hadith of Twelver Ameers is fabrication. Why did only Twelver Shias decide to base their number of Imams on this hadith as other Shia sects like Zaydis, Ismailis, Seveners did not bother to limit their Aimmah to Twelve whereas they also were aware of this hadith?

[Ijtaba]

I did not differ with you due to your opinion of the word "matter" meaning "Islam".  I differed with you on you selecting one particular variation of the hadith and then inserting the word "Islam" in its text, suggesting it to be the only meaning for the word "matter", thereby painting a very lopsided picture far from the message the hadith wishes to convey.

"This matter will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs."

May I know what matter is being referred to in this hadith? 

Prophet (s.a.w.w) said to his Companions that this matter will not end until it is passed by Twelver Caliphs and Companions did not bother to ask which matter is Prophet (s.a.w.w) talking about? It would only make sense if Companions knew what "matter" Prophet (s.a.w.w) is referring to in the hadith that there remains no need for the Companions to ask about the "matter" being discussed.

The Prophet (saw) specified a timeline for the triumph of the religion which coincides with the rule of 12 leaders.  In other words, the purpose of this hadith is to highlight a time period, not to identify 12 leaders.  The problem with your sect, and tens of other sects, is that you latch on to the latter claim when that is not the objective of this hadith.

As previously stated, this narration has nothing to do with the identities of the 12 leaders; it specifies a timeline for Islam being triumphant.  People may have compiled lists of who these leaders may be but they are all speculations, at best.

The Prophet (s.a.w.w) could simply had said, "Religion would be dominant until coming of the Hour" instead of talking about the rule of 12 unknown individuals because its been more than 14 centuries and no one still knows what Prophet (s.a.w.w) meant by the rule of 12 unknown individuals (except Twelver Shias who believe that their 12 Imams (a.s) are being referred to in the hadith)

Exactly my point!  If the Sahaba (ra) did not ask the Prophet (saw) to name these 12 leaders then it shows that the identity of these individuals was the main objective.  Hence, as I said, the purpose of this hadith is to highlight a certain time period, not to identify 12 leaders.

If certain time period was the purpose of this hadith then please let provide me the time period of the state of glory of Islam because Muslim Ummah had been ruled by more than (assuming) 50 rulers, so I want to know the period in which Islam was (or is) in state of glory.

As at present we have no Caliph/Ameer so is Islam still in state of glory or some of those 12 unknown individuals have yet to come?

...and that is where you shot yourself in the foot!  Yes, Islam came to do away with race, family and status which is why the concept of Imamah is absurd in the light of this particular Islamic objective.  Name me one Qur'anic Prophet (asws) who came to people saying that they should revere and admire his family (ra) - a selected special few - over all other humans, including other Prophets (asws).

- GOD chose Ale-Ibrahim (a.s) by giving them Prophethood, Book & Kingdom.

- GOD favored Bani-Israel over Alameen

[muslim720]

"This matter will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs."

May I know what matter is being referred to in this hadith? 

Whatever the matter is, rest assured it has nothing to do with your concept of Imamah.

Prophet (s.a.w.w) said to his Companions that this matter will not end until it is passed by Twelver Caliphs and Companions did not bother to ask which matter is Prophet (s.a.w.w) talking about?

You can pose a thousand questions, as is the Shia main discussion tactic, but you cannot twist it enough to fit your Imamah paradigm.

The Prophet (s.a.w.w) could simply had said, "Religion would be dominant until coming of the Hour" instead of talking about the rule of 12 unknown individuals because its been more than 14 centuries and no one still knows what Prophet (s.a.w.w) meant by the rule of 12 unknown individuals

The Prophet (saw) did not speak English.  Maybe you can ask for a refund from, or file a complain to, Allah (swt) in the Hereafter.

(except Twelver Shias who believe that their 12 Imams (a.s) are being referred to in the hadith)

...and the Ibadis, Nation of Islam, Zaidis, Ismailis, and many more!

If certain time period was the purpose of this hadith then please let provide me the time period of the state of glory of Islam because Muslim Ummah had been ruled by more than (assuming) 50 rulers, so I want to know the period in which Islam was (or is) in state of glory.

As I said, the 12 leaders may have came and gone, may not have came at all and some may have came while the remaining are yet to rule.  The very necessity that they must rule rules out 10 of your Imams (ra).

As at present we have no Caliph/Ameer so is Islam still in state of glory or some of those 12 unknown individuals have yet to come?

Answering by posing questions!  I wonder if Shias make good lawyers.

- GOD chose Ale-Ibrahim (a.s) by giving them Prophethood, Book & Kingdom.

- GOD favored Bani-Israel over Alameen

Yes, Allah (swt) chose them; the Prophets (asws) sent to them did not ask for special favors toward their own families.  And if Allah (swt) could vouch for their families, was it so hard for Him to do the same for the family of the Prophet (saw)?  However, we see that Allah (swt) says nothing about the family of Muhammad (saw) which means you should reflect on the same points you bring forth to counter my arguments with.