Why are Shia refusing to debate Farid? The Video will explain!

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Re: Why are Shia refusing to debate Farid? The Video will explain!
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2018, 07:03:33 PM »
And to whom does Hadith of 12 Leaders apply?

I do not know.  What I do know, however, is that it cannot be applied to your 12 Imams (ra) because the hadith necessitates worldly, material rule and 10 of your Imams (ra) never held such a position of power.

To Muawiya, Yazid, Banu Ummayah, Banu Abbas, the Ottomans? If your answer would be yes then please provide evidence (for your answer).

It can easily be applied to anyone on the list you have compiled because all of them ruled in a worldly sense.  So if we play your game, the names mentioned on your list are far more supported textually than your Imams (ra) are.

According to you by putting the word "Islam" and "life" after the word "matter" Twelver Shias belief is imposed upon the hadith... then can you be kind enough to enlighten me what "matter" was being discussed in the hadith if the matter wasn't Islam (or life)? If you yourself don't know what the "matter" is being talked about in the hadith then just say so rather than avoid the question.

In "The Book of Government" of Sahih Muslim, there is the following narration.

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I joined the company of the Prophet (ﷺ) with my father and I heard him say: This Caliphate will not end until there have been twelve Caliphs among them.  The narrator said: Then he (the Holy Prophet) said something that I could not follow.  I said to my father: What did he say? He said: He has said: All of them will be from the Quraish.

Here, the "matter" has been equated with "Caliphate.  Now I am sure you will try to refute this by saying "but the Prophet (saw) said that Caliphate will last for thirty years" so I will teach you our belief.  We believe that that the Caliphate which lasted 30 years - the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Imam Ali and Imam Hassan, may Allah be pleased with them - was upon the Sunnah (more than any other ruling period).  Then, leadership was replaced with kingship but before the Hour approaches, the leadership of Muslims will return and realign to the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).

Here is the proof for it.  Reported in the Musnad Imaam Ahmad, by at-Tirmidhi, Musnad Abi Ya'laa, and Ibn Hibbaan: "The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wills it to be.  Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it.  Then there will be the khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology.  And it will last for as long as Allaah wills it to last.  Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it.  Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain.  Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it.  Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain.  Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be a khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology.  Then he (the Prophet) was silent."

Let me guess, the worldly & material rule should be like Ruler staying in his luxurious palace having courtiers praising him day & night. The ruler snatching people's property illegally and killing all those who rebel against him and punishing those who oppose him and I can go on and on but I guess you get the picture.

You have beautifully summarized and re-echoed the plight of Iranians against the ruling religious class.

Well sorry to say our Aimmah (a.s) rule wasn't worldly and materialistic. And I believe that those 12 Rulers mentioned in hadith wouldn't be ruling worldly and materialistically because during their ruler-ship Islam will be glorious.

Apology accepted but the text of the hadith necessitates worldly rule.

What about the rest of Prophets (a.s) of Bani Isra'il? Didn't Nabi Musa (a.s), Nabi Haroon (a.s), Nabi Isa (a.s) and the rest of Prophets (a.s) rule Bani Isra'il? The hadith which I quoted clearly states that Prophets (a.s) ruled Bani Isra'il.

We are not talking about Prophets (asws).  There were Prophets (asws) that ruled metaphorically and others that ruled in actuality, in a worldly sense.  Their positions are preserved and well-understood.  The core of my argument is that textually, 10 out of 12 of your Imams (ra) are disqualified to be mentioned in relation to the Hadith of 12 Leaders.

Why do you always keep dumbness meter handy? To measure your dumbness when you can't find reasonable answers to the questions posed to you ;D

Oh, you didn't know that the meter is built-in this forum?  Maybe it has never gone off for you to see it.  How could it go off because you engage with rational people so it detects nothing whereas on our end, when discussing with you, Iceman and the likes, it goes into a fit.

Your response shows your level of intelligence. The period of Nabi Musa (a.s) and period after Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w) has got nothing to do with the example I gave. Imam Ali (a.s) & Aimmah (a.s) followed Nabi Haroon (a.s) example when people left Aimmah (a.s) and followed others instead of them (a.s)

How is that relevant to a narration which says that Islam will remain triumphant during the rule of 12 leaders?

Kindly enlighten the readers with the context of the hadith with the chapter heading it is falling under.

You quoted the hadith.  I won't run after you cleaning up your mess.  I have already exposed enough to shatter your credibility.

Imam Hassan (a.s) made peace with Muawiya because of latter's greediness for caliphate who at any cost wanted rulership even if that meant Islam facing great loss through in-fighting and killing between Muslims. In order to stop such madness of Muawiya, Imam Hassan (a.s) made peace treaty with Muawiya.

Really?  So Imam Hassan (ra), out of concern for Muslims, opted for peace.  Then that means Imam Hussain (ra) had zero concern for loss of lives and opted for killing between Muslims because he set out to overthrow Yazeed (la).

12 Rulers hadith necessitate that all 12 rulers rule with justice and equity.

Prove it from the text.  It is a challenge and I will bring you back to this point every time I respond to you (from here on out).  Then again, your flow chart goes as follows: rule with justice and equity.  There has to be rule before there is justice and equity.  In the case of 10 of your Imams (ra), there was no rule so they are not in the running to be included in this hadith.

Oh that Ruler has to rule in worldly and material sense... If 12 leaders have to rule like Talut (a.s), Nabi Dawud (a.s) & Nabi Sulaiman (a.s) then this argument is not in your favor as all 3 of them (a.s) were Masum and for the 12 Rulers hadith you are including non-Masum rulers.

I did not say that the 12 Leaders have to rule like Talut (asws), Dawood (asws) and Sulaiman (asws) in essence and practice.  I only provided that list to counter your list of Nimrod, Firawn and Romans while clearly differentiating between my list and yours.  That while those on my list were upon Islam and the ones you mentioned were upon kufr and misguidance, the common denominator (between them) was that they ruled in a worldly sense.  I was exposing your dishonesty in selecting a sample list of people who ruled in a worldly sense.

When choosing Adam (a.s) as Caliph GOD did not take opinion of Masum creatures (i.e. Angels) so how is it possible that GOD leave the matter of Caliphate to non-Masum creatures (i.e. Humans)

To play by your logic, just like Allah (swt) did not choose to take the opinion of "Masum creatures (i.e. Angels)" to appoint his Caliph on earth, those gathered in Saqifa did not take the opinion of "Masum creatures (i.e. Imam Ali, Fatima, etc)" to nominate their Caliph.  Those at Saqifa were only re-establishing the Sunnah of Allah (swt).

I feel sad that your intelligence level has dropped to such level that you cannot differentiate between "reasonable" & "nonsense." Now I understand why your responses are nonsensical to the arguments presented and you often have to resort to ad hominem attacks so as to gain confidence that you refuted the argument.

Thank you!  And yet you are having a hard time to counter a single point I have made, lol.

GOD'S Covenant of Leadership does not include Unjust People. Only Masums (a.s) have been given authority by GOD to Rule HIS Creation.

...and on that note, we go to our next song *sad violin playing*
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)


Re: Why are Shia refusing to debate Farid? The Video will explain!
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2018, 07:51:07 PM »
Narrated Safinah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the Kingdom of His Kingdom to anyone He wills.

Sa'id told that Safinah said to him: Calculate Abu Bakr's caliphate as two years, 'Umar's as ten, 'Uthman's as twelve and 'Ali so and so. Sa'id said: I said to Safinah: They conceive that 'Ali was not a caliph. He replied: The buttocks of Marwan told a lie.

Grade : Hasan Sahih (Al-Albani)   
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4646
In-book reference : Book 42, Hadith 51
English translation : Book 41, Hadith 4629

Only 4 Caliphs are mentioned.

How would you reconcile above hadith with hadith where only 12 Rulers are mentioned?
the hadeeth of 12 Caliphs isn’t about the Caliphate on Manhaj Nabuwwah. So no relation between the two. It isn’t contradictory. One talks about the state in which Islam would be. Other talks about the methodology of Caliphate.

Then why did Twelver Shias stop at Twelfth Imam (a.s)? Why not stop at Eleventh Imam (a.s)?
that’s a dumb question, it’s like asking why did Seveners stop of seven, or others at other number. The point you need focus on is the issue of bada’ that used to be claimed by Imams after the death of some of their sons.

Would Muslims fighting and killing each other (during the rule of 4th Caliph) effect the glory of Islam?
Fights did affect the Ummah, but Islam(the deen) remained in the state of glory.


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