TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Bolani Muslim on January 22, 2015, 02:56:33 AM
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Quote from Ameen
"We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah. And I agree with you that this is a dumb narrow minded topic but it's Ebn Hussein who believes in it. Most of your threads are dumb and narrow minded but I know you are hesitant when it comes to others. What, you've had enough already??? "
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=unClBRXjxWg
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I don't speak from Ameen, but the practice of calling upon saints is not unique to Shi'ism. Even the Sufis say "Ya Nabi" or "Ya Muhammad".
It's called tawassul.
Ya Muhammad
Ya Zahra
Ya Ali
Ya Hasan
Ya Husayn
`alayhim salaatu wa salaam.
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Quote from Ameen
"We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah. And I agree with you that this is a dumb narrow minded topic but it's Ebn Hussein who believes in it. Most of your threads are dumb and narrow minded but I know you are hesitant when it comes to others. What, you've had enough already??? "
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=unClBRXjxWg
I think it's about time you stopped watching videos. Get down to reality. We do not call on anyone apart from Allah. We do not associate anyone with Allah. We do not partner anyone with Allah. If this is not good enough for you then carry on with the propaganda.
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Quote from Ameen
"We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah. And I agree with you that this is a dumb narrow minded topic but it's Ebn Hussein who believes in it. Most of your threads are dumb and narrow minded but I know you are hesitant when it comes to others. What, you've had enough already??? "
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=unClBRXjxWg
I think it's about time you stopped watching videos. Get down to reality. We do not call on anyone apart from Allah. We do not associate anyone with Allah. We do not partner anyone with Allah. If this is not good enough for you then carry on with the propaganda.
Wait hold on a second. The evidence is right infront of you mate yet you're just dismissing it like it's a fake video?
Are you not prepared to admit that SOME Shias to call upon Fatima and Hussain by chanting "Ya' Zahra/Ya' Hussain"?
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It depends on what you think when you say "Ya Nabi". The intentions are important. No harm in saying Ya ... but the way I see shiites doing this is going to far since they also believe in wilayat takwiniya.
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It depends on what you think when you say "Ya Nabi". The intentions are important. No harm in saying Ya ... but the way I see shiites doing this is going to far since they also believe in wilayat takwiniya.
Not all Shias believe in Wilayat Takwiniyya.
Here's a quote from Fadhlallah's website.
The term Wilayat Takwiniya means that Allah has given Prophet Muhammad (p.) and his household the mandate to run the universe or at least a part of it. The religious scholars are divided between those who believe in it and those who do not. And we tend to agree with those who do not, because if Allah does not interfere and has left the running of the universe to other distinguished creations (Angels, Prophets… etc) then they are independent is assuming their responsibilities and this is what the religious scholars have agreed to refuse. It is clear in this case that rejecting the mandate leads to rejecting the Wilayat Takwiniya. If this Wilayat means something else: That they (prophets and imams) were honoured by Allah in asking them to run the universe, although He is the real administrator and the only source of power. We say that since their role is to guide people to the right path, any other task does not conform with this role. It is also not necessary to enable them to perform this role. Miracles do not constitute a proof in this regard. The miracle is an exceptional action that Allah made certain Prophets perform to prove their case. But it is not a proof of the Wilayat Takwiniya, since it is not a constant attribute. In any case, what is relevant here is that Allah has ensured in His Holy Book that He is the only creator and the only one who runs this universe, and that He has no partners. If the angles were given a certain role in running certain affairs, they are not independent, rather, and according to the Quranic text, they follow His orders. Moreover it has not been proven that, with the exception of the angels, anybody else, especially, Prophets and Imams, have any role in running the universe. The traditions that say otherwise are either false because they contradict the Quran, or not authentic.
He explains the concept and why he rejects it.
Note: I am not the biggest fan of Fadhlallah, but I think he's right on this issue.
My opinion: It is intercession only. While RasulAllah (sawa) was alive, he would pray for the Ummah. Since he was a martyr and the martyrs don't die, he is still praying. Ya Nabi, pray for me.
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Quote from Ameen
"We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah. And I agree with you that this is a dumb narrow minded topic but it's Ebn Hussein who believes in it. Most of your threads are dumb and narrow minded but I know you are hesitant when it comes to others. What, you've had enough already??? "
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=unClBRXjxWg
I think it's about time you stopped watching videos. Get down to reality. We do not call on anyone apart from Allah. We do not associate anyone with Allah. We do not partner anyone with Allah. If this is not good enough for you then carry on with the propaganda.
Wait hold on a second. The evidence is right infront of you mate yet you're just dismissing it like it's a fake video?
Are you not prepared to admit that SOME Shias to call upon Fatima and Hussain by chanting "Ya' Zahra/Ya' Hussain"?
Some Shias call on others apart from Allah??? The Ahle Sunnah say Ya Nabi and Ya Rasulullah, so what seems to be the problem??? I don't see you making an issue of this. Neither the Shias nor the Sunnis call upon anyone apart from Allah. And if you want to start believing in videos where a group of people are shouting and screaming this and that then, please be wise and keep the rest of the community out of it and focus on who and what.
Also read a few Ahle Sunnah authentic books and you will find that the Messenger (pbuh) called out "Ya Ali" not once but three times during the battle of Uhad and according to the Ahle Sunnah if the Prophet (pbuh) says or does something three times then that becomes Sunnath e Moqidah.
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It depends on what you think when you say "Ya Nabi". The intentions are important. No harm in saying Ya ... but the way I see shiites doing this is going to far since they also believe in wilayat takwiniya.
Well you need to stop seeing this your way all the time. The world doesn't evolve around you and your thinking. Just as you see others differently they also see you. Start to accept and respect others.
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I think it's about time you stopped watching videos. Get down to reality. We do not call on anyone apart from Allah. We do not associate anyone with Allah. We do not partner anyone with Allah. If this is not good enough for you then carry on with the propaganda.
What kind of shia are you??? Who's your marja??? How old are you??? I've never come across a more ignorant shia in my life, I'm beginning to think you're some kid who's trolling. I've never in my life (from fellow shias at masjid, shia tv, shias online, ect) heard a 'shia' say that shias don't pray to other than Allah. Fadlullah is the only exception that I know of.
Also read a few Ahle Sunnah authentic books and you will find that the Messenger (pbuh) called out "Ya Ali" not once but three times during the battle of Uhad and according to the Ahle Sunnah if the Prophet (pbuh) says or does something three times then that becomes Sunnath e Moqidah.
Beta, their's a difference between saying, "Hey (live) mom come here and eat lunch with me" and "Oh (dead) mom pray for me, because I'm not good enough"
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Beta, their's a difference between saying, "Hey (live) mom come here and eat lunch with me" and "Oh (dead) mom pray for me, because I'm not good enough"
The Qur'an says that the martyrs don't die. If RasulAllah (sawa) was a martyr, what's the harm in asking for his intercession? The Sufis do it too, by the way.
A mother is different. She most likely wouldn't be a shaheed or even close to the righteousness of the Messenger (sawa).
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Since when is the differentiation betweed the dead and alive, deciding what is kufr and what is not? We could maybe say it is haraam. And prophets are alive in their graves.
If you say: "ya nabi salam alayka" then you aren't calling upon him (saw) like he is a god. A true muslim who is born and raised with tawheed will never do that.
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I think it's about time you stopped watching videos. Get down to reality. We do not call on anyone apart from Allah. We do not associate anyone with Allah. We do not partner anyone with Allah. If this is not good enough for you then carry on with the propaganda.
What kind of shia are you??? Who's your marja??? How old are you??? I've never come across a more ignorant shia in my life, I'm beginning to think you're some kid who's trolling. I've never in my life (from fellow shias at masjid, shia tv, shias online, ect) heard a 'shia' say that shias don't pray to other than Allah. Fadlullah is the only exception that I know of.
Also read a few Ahle Sunnah authentic books and you will find that the Messenger (pbuh) called out "Ya Ali" not once but three times during the battle of Uhad and according to the Ahle Sunnah if the Prophet (pbuh) says or does something three times then that becomes Sunnath e Moqidah.
Beta, their's a difference between saying, "Hey (live) mom come here and eat lunch with me" and "Oh (dead) mom pray for me, because I'm not good enough"
Son, let me tell you that I have come across many stuck up propagandists like you. Don't go around beating drums based on assumptions through gossip and rumours. You want me to believe what you say about Ahle Sunnah but you want to force your thoughts about Shiaism upon me.
Simple, if I need to clarify something about Ahle Sunnah then instead of listening to you I should just stick to my opinion based on gossip and rumours and force it upon you. Yeh??? You know yourself better and you also know me better than myself??? Wow!
If I need to know about you and your Aqeedah then I ask you and the same vice versa. Just cut the nonsense out. But you can't because your mission is like the west against Muslims and Islam and you against Shias and Shiaism.
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The Qur'an says that the martyrs don't die. If RasulAllah (sawa) was a martyr, what's the harm in asking for his intercession? The Sufis do it too, by the way.
Great so Martyrs don't die right? Let's assume the Prophet (saw) was alive right now, walking around Madinah's markets and buying groceries for his household. And you Mr. Taha call upon him from the United states or wherever you are, guess what happens?
Nothing, because he's too far away to hear you even though he's alive.
So now you have a living Prophet (saw) who is under two tons of sand buried in `A'ishah's room and surrounded by walls.
How's this living prophet gonna hear you, out of curiosity? (Plus evidence).
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Since when is the differentiation betweed the dead and alive, deciding what is kufr and what is not? We could maybe say it is haraam. And prophets are alive in their graves.
If you say: "ya nabi salam alayka" then you aren't calling upon him (saw) like he is a god. A true muslim who is born and raised with tawheed will never do that.
And the same applies to us. We also don't call upon anyone like they are God. It's your wickedness towards Shiaism that is stopping you from thinking straight. Do you see any propaganda from us??? Why are just a handful like you using the Ahle Sunnah platform to do their dirty work??? Can't you speak about your Aqeedah???? Is it that weak???
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Son, let me tell you that I have come across many stuck up propagandists like you. Don't go around beating drums based on assumptions through gossip and rumours. You want me to believe what you say about Ahle Sunnah but you want to force your thoughts about Shiaism upon me.
Simple, if I need to clarify something about Ahle Sunnah then instead of listening to you I should just stick to my opinion based on gossip and rumours and force it upon you. Yeh??? You know yourself better and you also know me better than myself??? Wow!
If I need to know about you and your Aqeedah then I ask you and the same vice versa. Just cut the nonsense out. But you can't because your mission is like the west against Muslims and Islam and you against Shias and Shiaism.
I fail to see anything useful in the majority of your posts. You just deny things (sometimes obvious things). Would you like us to start quoting evidence from Shia books on how they call on other than Allah for blessings and Hawa'ij?
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Great so Martyrs don't die right? Let's assume the Prophet (saw) was alive right now, walking around Madinah's markets and buying groceries for his household. And you Mr. Taha call upon him from the United states or wherever you are, guess what happens?
Nothing, because he's too far away to hear you even though he's alive.
So now you have a living Prophet (saw) who is under two tons of sand buried in `A'ishah's room and surrounded by walls.
How's this living prophet gonna hear you, out of curiosity? (Plus evidence).
You made me smile because I don't have a proper response.
My only thoughts are, why would Allah (s.w.t) keep him alive several feet underground? That makes no sense.
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The Qur'an says that the martyrs don't die. If RasulAllah (sawa) was a martyr, what's the harm in asking for his intercession? The Sufis do it too, by the way.
Great so Martyrs don't die right? Let's assume the Prophet (saw) was alive right now, walking around Madinah's markets and buying groceries for his household. And you Mr. Taha call upon him from the United states or wherever you are, guess what happens?
Nothing, because he's too far away to hear you even though he's alive.
So now you have a living Prophet (saw) who is under two tons of sand buried in `A'ishah's room and surrounded by walls.
How's this living prophet gonna hear you, out of curiosity? (Plus evidence).
And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.
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The following is from Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam [one of Mufti Taqi Uthmani's students] who is based in Leicester. His website is www.daruliftaa.co.uk
Saying Ya Rasul Allah.
Is it permissible to call the words Ya Rasul Allah?
Question # q-22273586
Date Posted: 04/02/2004
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
To say the words “Ya Rasul Allah” (O Messenger of Allah) or to call for the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) in some other way is not something that is unlawful or innovation (bid’a) in itself.
If a person, upon hearing the blessed name of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), out of love and affection imagined the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and said Ya Rasul Allah or any other wording of Salutation (salat & salam), then this is totally permissible.
The wording of Salat and Salam in Tashahhud also has the meaning of calling the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), yet it is part of our Salat. The meaning of “Assalamu Alayka Ayyuhan Nabi” is peace and blessings be upon you O Prophet of Allah.
However, if by Saying theses words, one has the belief that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is omnipresent in front of him in a way that Allah is, then this will be unlawful (haram) and considered to be Shirk.
The third situation is when one does not have this belief (aqidah), but regards that the only correct method of sending blessings on the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is by saying theses words, or he regards those who do not say “Ya Rasul Allah” as not having true love for the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace), then this will be regarded as innovation (bid’a).
It should be kept in mind that this is a trivial issue. In the Islamic history, we can never find incidents where Muslims argued and had disputes on whether one can say Ya Rasul Allah or not. Unfortunately, today we are busy fighting and arguing regarding these trivial matters, yet the need for unity has never been more than before. May Allah guide us all to the straight path (Ameen).
And Allah Knows Best
Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK
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Aren't their non-literal interpretations of the verse
BTW, why do shias never do tawassul with shaheeds (except Karbala)? I've never at my masjid heard the mullah say "Ya Sumaya (ra) idrikni"
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http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/19662
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
As-salāmu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullāhi wa-barakātuh.
1) The bodies of the Prophets are preserved and remain intact in the grave. This is mentioned by the Prophet Sallāhu Alayhi Wasallam himself and is authentically proven. The Prophets are also alive in their graves.
We do not know the reality and exact nature of the life of the Prophets alayhis salām in their graves. However, it is mentioned in the Hadith that when a person comes to visit the Prophet Sallāhu Alayhi Wasallam and greets Rasulullah Sallāhu Alayhi Wasallam, he (Rasulullah) hears the greeting and also replies to the greeting. When a person sends greetings to Rasulullah Sallāhu Alayhi Wasallam from far, the angels carry that Salāms and convey it to Rasulullah Sallāhu Alayhi Wasallam.[1]
For further details (proof) please refer to the link below prepared by Mufti Ebrahim Desai Sahib:
http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/alive.htm
2) Imām Muslim was not an Māliki nor a Hanafi nor a Shafi. Compilation of the Sahih Muslim shows that he was more inclined towards the Shafī School of thought.[2]
Various scholars have different opinion about Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh’s mazhab, some are mentioned hereunder:
1) According to ibn Taimiyyah (R.A), Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh was a mujtahid and an independent Imām.
2) Allama Taqi῾uddeen Subki has regarded him as a Shafi῾ because he was the student of Humaidi, who was a Shafi῾. This conclusion is not correct because then Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh should be regarded as a Hanafi in view of Ishāq ibn Rāhway, Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh’s Teacher, being a student of Abdullah Ibn Mubārak Rahmatulllah ῾alayh and Abdullah Ibn Mubārak Rahmatulllah ῾alayh was a Hanafi.
3) Ibn Qayym (R.A.) says Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh, Muslim and Abu Dawood were strong followers of Imām Ahmed ibn Hambal.
After studing and closely looking at Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh, pone will realize that Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh did not follow any one Imām, he has his independent views on many issues, therefore Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri (R.A.) and Sheikh Zakaria(R.A.) have the same view as that of Allamah Taimiyyah that Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh is a mujtahid.
Muhaddise-Kabir Wa Sheikh-u- Ulamā Hadhrat Moulana Fazlur Rahman Sahib Dāmat Barakātuhum, Shaikul Hadith of Darul Uloom Azaadville is of the opinion that Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh‘s Usools (fundamental principles) are not known, it is difficult to regard him as an independent Imām and mujtahid.
Hadhrat Mufti Ebrahim Desai Sahib’s view is that not knowing the Usool of any Imām is not the criteria to disqualify him from being a mujtahid, just as there were many other mujtahids other than the famous and commonly known four Imāms. Their Usool are not known, but they were mujtahids or else it would mean that there were only four mujtahids in this Ummat. Yes, one may say that since the Usools of Imām Bukhari Rahmatulllah ῾alayh are not known, he cannot be followed, just as we cannot follow for eg. Sufyan Sawri, Sufyan Uyaina, etc.[3]
And Allah Ta’āla Knows Best
Mufti Zaid Mohammed Shelia,
Student Darul Iftaa
USA
Checked and Approved by,
Mufti Ebrahim Desai.
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And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.
Calling on Allah is our philosophy in life and it is our entire religion, everything we do is in his name, so don't worry about "how Allah can help", if Allah didn't wish to help you'd be dead and obliterated as we speak.
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And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.
Do you even consider yourself a muslim?
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You made me smile because I don't have a proper response.
My only thoughts are, why would Allah (s.w.t) keep him alive several feet underground? That makes no sense.
Ya Akhi, leave the creations and seek the Lord of the creations, that's all Muhammad (saw) taught, but the Imami sect went out of Ghuluw and did the opposite.
Listen to them, how often do they say "Ya Muhammad?" Seriously I ask you! Don't they mostly say "Ya `Ali"? They claim to be logical and rational but if they were they'd call on Allah's greatest creation Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw).
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Ya Akhi, leave the creations and seek the Lord of the creations, that's all Muhammad (saw) taught, but the Imami sect went out of Ghuluw and did the opposite.
Listen to them, how often do they say "Ya Muhammad?" Seriously I ask you! Don't they mostly say "Ya `Ali"? They claim to be logical and rational but if they were they'd call on Allah's greatest creation Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw).
I agree.
This thread has melted my brain. I can't believe somebody would claim that calling on Allah (s.w.t) is useless and then go on to compare him to a mechanic. I'm at a loss for words . . .
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Aren't their non-literal interpretations of the verse
BTW, why do shias never do tawassul with shaheeds (except Karbala)? I've never at my masjid heard the mullah say "Ya Sumaya (ra) idrikni"
You hit on a sensitive topic, you see certain sects criticize others by accusing them of being "too literal" yet they teach their followers what is equally "literal" and assume that at this moment, Muhammad (saw) and `Ali are just sitting with nothing to do except hear our requests and transmit them to Allah.
A call center.
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*edited
My mom's response when I asked her why we don't say 'Ya Muhammad maddad' or pray to him (saw)
"Bachem (dear son), you are loved the most by me and I'm the head of the house so if someone praises you I'm happy, Same with Hazrat Muhammad (saww) and relationship of Imam Ali (ka), so it's both equal in reward (now Hazrat Ali and Mohammad (saw) are happy by praying to Hazrat Ali)"
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^My mom's response when I asked her why we don't say 'Ya Muhammad maddad' or pray to him (saw)
"Bachem, since you're loved the most loved to me, Same with Hazrat Muhammad (saww) and Imam Ali (ka) so it's both equal"
Can you reword her response into different words? I don't quite understand it ...
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And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.
[/quote
Calling on Allah is our philosophy in life and it is our entire religion, everything we do is in his name, so don't worry about "how Allah can help", if Allah didn't wish to help you'd be dead and obliterated as we speak.
And we believe in the same brother. The only difference is, we do not envy you. This is we're the problem is when it comes to your kind. I believe in people like Sahib Zadah Hamid Raza of the Sunni Etihad Council of Pakistan, who is doing tremendous work in building community relations. Now these are the real Ahle Sunnah and this is what Ahle Sunnah is all about. Not just a group of brothers full of bitterness, hatred and envy running such a forum and using the Ahle Sunnah platform.
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I agree.
This thread has melted my brain. I can't believe somebody would claim that calling on Allah (s.w.t) is useless and then go on to compare him to a mechanic. I'm at a loss for words . . .
Because he wants to justify his beliefs no matter what. For him now, if you call your friend to help you with your homework is equal to saying "Ya `Ali Madad" or "O `Ali help me". Allah created the human community and told them to work together and help each-other and do acts of kindness to one another, Allah also told us that everything happens by his will and that if everyone decided to help you yet he did not wish it, then you will not be helped, thus to Allah return all affairs and He is in control of the flow of events, He is All hearing, All seeing, All knowing and is more merciful than his creations.
So logically, why call on his creations? When you call, Allah will hear you before `Ali does, and Allah is more merciful rather infinitely merciful than `Ali, so why not call on Allah instead of `Ali?
Another thing is, the Imami bro above said: "How can Allah help." Then I ask: "How can `Ali help"? Fact is, calling on Allah is obligatory, it is a sign of submission to his power, an act of worship for which we are rewarded, it is not a condition that Allah will fulfill all our wishes, otherwise life itself will have no purpose and the entire wisdom of this world is gone.
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And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.
Do you even consider yourself a muslim?
Absolutely my friend. But I'm not one of those who likes to slag others Aqeedah and belief, like you I guess.
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@Ameen,
And we believe in the same brother. The only difference is, we do not envy you. This is we're the problem is when it comes to your kind. I believe in people like Sahib Zadah Hamid Raza of the Sunni Etihad Council of Pakistan, who is doing tremendous work in building community relations. Now these are the real Ahle Sunnah and this is what Ahle Sunnah is all about. Not just a group of brothers full of bitterness, hatred and envy running such a forum and using the Ahle Sunnah platform.
We envy you? I think you got it wrong, there's nothing in Tashayyu` that we envy, nothing good was every produced from Tashayyu`, if anything we need more Sunnism than Shiasm lol.
As for the dude you mentioned, I dunno him.
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I agree.
This thread has melted my brain. I can't believe somebody would claim that calling on Allah (s.w.t) is useless and then go on to compare him to a mechanic. I'm at a loss for words . . .
Because he wants to justify his beliefs no matter what. For him now, if you call your friend to help you with your homework is equal to saying "Ya `Ali Madad" or "O `Ali help me". Allah created the human community and told them to work together and help each-other and do acts of kindness to one another, Allah also told us that everything happens by his will and that if everyone decided to help you yet he did not wish it, then you will not be helped, thus to Allah return all affairs and He is in control of the flow of events, He is All hearing, All seeing, All knowing and is more merciful than his creations.
So logically, why call on his creations? When you call, Allah will hear you before `Ali does, and Allah is more merciful rather infinitely merciful than `Ali, so why not call on Allah instead of `Ali?
Another thing is, the Imami bro above said: "How can Allah help." Then I ask: "How can `Ali help"? Fact is, calling on Allah is obligatory, it is a sign of submission to his power, an act of worship for which we are rewarded, it is not a condition that Allah will fulfill all our wishes, otherwise life itself will have no purpose and the entire wisdom of this world is gone.
You love to put your words in people's mouths, don't you??? I know you boys are hell bent in doing your best to destroy Shiaism . "Don't ask the Shias what they are about, we know them better than they know themselves", what can I say about you??? Rather than asking me about my post, you've decided to explain it yourself by giving it your meaning. Wow! I'm not surprised because I've faced and dealt with a lot of such kind.
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I was debating this point with a friend of mine years ago - the issue of tawassul. I asked - "If a million people all say Ya 'Ali and ask him for something, how can 'Ali possibly answer all these requests?". So he says, "Can't Allah do anything??".
Another incident - a Sheikh once said to me - "Tawassul is just reaching Allah through a certain path or connection". So I thought that basically, tawassul is like a huge LAN, and you get the best speeds when going through certain people. Going through 'Ali, for example, is like using a 1 Gbps Fiber Optic Cable.
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@Ameen,
You love to put your words in people's mouths, don't you??? I know you boys are hell bent in doing your best to destroy Shiaism . "Don't ask the Shias what they are about, we know them better than they know themselves", what can I say about you??? Rather than asking me about my post, you've decided to explain it yourself by giving it your meaning. Wow! I'm not surprised because I've faced and dealt with a lot of such kind.
So you post something and I'm not expected to understand it, rather I'm supposed to ask you about your post?
Okay Ameen, please tell me about your post... or wait, I'm actually going to bed now, you can tell us about your complicated posts later as it seems no one can interpret them except an infallible.
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@Ameen,
And we believe in the same brother. The only difference is, we do not envy you. This is we're the problem is when it comes to your kind. I believe in people like Sahib Zadah Hamid Raza of the Sunni Etihad Council of Pakistan, who is doing tremendous work in building community relations. Now these are the real Ahle Sunnah and this is what Ahle Sunnah is all about. Not just a group of brothers full of bitterness, hatred and envy running such a forum and using the Ahle Sunnah platform.
We envy you? I think you got it wrong, there's nothing in Tashayyu` that we envy, nothing good was every produced from Tashayyu`, if anything we need more Sunnism than Shiasm lol.
As for the dude you mentioned, I dunno him.
Nothing good was ever produced from Tashayyu??? Lol. This is exactly what extremism is all about. Seeing nothing good in something (Shiaism) and seeing nothing wrong in something (Sunnism). You need more Sunnism??? Lol. You need more of something (Sunnism) that you can't even speak and talk about??? Lol. The only way you can have more of Sunnism is by making Shiaism look more bad. Lol. There is a small difference between you and Shiaism and the west and Islam. You are hidden but the west is open.
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Ameen jaan, it's not that hard to decipher what you wrote. You questioned the fact that praying to Allah helps us. You wrote "And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you???" That's something only an athiest would say.
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@Ameen,
You love to put your words in people's mouths, don't you??? I know you boys are hell bent in doing your best to destroy Shiaism . "Don't ask the Shias what they are about, we know them better than they know themselves", what can I say about you??? Rather than asking me about my post, you've decided to explain it yourself by giving it your meaning. Wow! I'm not surprised because I've faced and dealt with a lot of such kind.
So you post something and I'm not expected to understand it, rather I'm supposed to ask you about your post?
Okay Ameen, please tell me about your post... or wait, I'm actually going to bed now, you can tell us about your complicated posts later as it seems no one can interpret them except an infallible.
My response is "LOL". Wel,l that is the only response to your jokes. Nice one. Cheerio for now.
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Aren't their non-literal interpretations of the verse
BTW, why do shias never do tawassul with shaheeds (except Karbala)? I've never at my masjid heard the mullah say "Ya Sumaya (ra) idrikni"
You hit on a sensitive topic, you see certain sects criticize others by accusing them of being "too literal" yet they teach their followers what is equally "literal" and assume that at this moment, Muhammad (saw) and `Ali are just sitting with nothing to do except hear our requests and transmit them to Allah.
A call center.
Hani, see my 2 posts which are pretty long, 2 fatawa.
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Because he wants to justify his beliefs no matter what. For him now, if you call your friend to help you with your homework is equal to saying "Ya `Ali Madad" or "O `Ali help me".
Is there anything wrong with asking the knower of the unseen to help me with homework? :P
Allah created the human community and told them to work together and help each-other and do acts of kindness to one another, Allah also told us that everything happens by his will and that if everyone decided to help you yet he did not wish it, then you will not be helped, thus to Allah return all affairs and He is in control of the flow of events, He is All hearing, All seeing, All knowing and is more merciful than his creations.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, but this can be taken to an extreme. I mean, if this is the case, then there's no point in Dua at all, is there? We can't change Allah's (s.w.t) mind by asking him to. But that's not the case, as we have many examples of the Prophet (s.a.w.a) performing dua for himself, his family, his companions, his tribe, his ummah, etc. Therefore, supplications do have some effect, right?
So logically, why call on his creations? When you call, Allah will hear you before `Ali does, and Allah is more merciful rather infinitely merciful than `Ali, so why not call on Allah instead of `Ali?
I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
Another thing is, the Imami bro above said: "How can Allah help." Then I ask: "How can `Ali help"? Fact is, calling on Allah is obligatory, it is a sign of submission to his power, an act of worship for which we are rewarded, it is not a condition that Allah will fulfill all our wishes, otherwise life itself will have no purpose and the entire wisdom of this world is gone.
I agree, absolutely. I am not one of those to say that Ya `Ali madad is better than Ya Allah madad. But I don't see the harm in it, personally. The Shias do it. The Sufis do it. Apparently the Prophet (s.a.w.a) did it at Khaybar (when `Ali was back in Madinah ......)
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Another incident - a Sheikh once said to me - "Tawassul is just reaching Allah through a certain path or connection". So I thought that basically, tawassul is like a huge LAN, and you get the best speeds when going through certain people. Going through 'Ali, for example, is like using a 1 Gbps Fiber Optic Cable.
This. Is. Brilliant.
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Hmm no takfeer bomb yet hahha
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takfeer bomb!!!?? what do you mean by takfeer??!! who is bomb!!!?? do you mean takfeer the brother of bomb??!! who are we??!! what is you??? who where why which what how????!!!
im impersonating you know who, whose post is basically just comedy of useless comment like my first paragraph. I find his post very entertaining though :D
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It depends on what you think when you say "Ya Nabi". The intentions are important. No harm in saying Ya ... but the way I see shiites doing this is going to far since they also believe in wilayat takwiniya.
Well you need to stop seeing this your way all the time. The world doesn't evolve around you and your thinking. Just as you see others differently they also see you. Start to accept and respect others.
What do you mean seeing things our way all the time? Who're you kidding? This is videographic evidence, and I've seen bucket-loads of Shias calling upon human beings instead of Allah (SWT). We're not seeings our own way, we're hearing things from the very lips of your own people and scholars.
Quit playing the victime all the time and as if we're retards that we can't distinguish between what's clear and batil.
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Even at hajj they say Ya Hussein, so yes you worship him.
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The Qur'an says that the martyrs don't die. If RasulAllah (sawa) was a martyr, what's the harm in asking for his intercession? The Sufis do it too, by the way.
Great so Martyrs don't die right? Let's assume the Prophet (saw) was alive right now, walking around Madinah's markets and buying groceries for his household. And you Mr. Taha call upon him from the United states or wherever you are, guess what happens?
Nothing, because he's too far away to hear you even though he's alive.
So now you have a living Prophet (saw) who is under two tons of sand buried in `A'ishah's room and surrounded by walls.
How's this living prophet gonna hear you, out of curiosity? (Plus evidence).
And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.
(http://www.clipartbest.com/cliparts/dc6/y7q/dc6y7qKc9.gif)
Common sense has gone out the window? What the bannana?
Does Allah not say in the Qur'an to call upon me and ONLY me? Did Allah (SWT) not create the Universe and the Earth? Is Allah (SWT) not capable of all things? Did he not create Adam (AS) without a father and a mother? Did Allah (SWT) not make it possible for Mariam (AS) to give birth to child without the intervention of a man?
What rubbish you spout, and you have tamerity to tell us our common has gone out the window?
This is rich coming from someone who claims he calls upon no one else, but Allah (SWT).
If you're trapped in an elevator then religiously who would you call upon? The Mehdi that's taking sanctuary somewhere in a cave or basement?
This is by far the most hilariously dimwitted statement/post I've read, ROFL.
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Ameen, just a random question, when is your birthday????? Tell me?? And what calendar are you using??? Hijri calendar or Christian calendar??? Why not budhist calendar??? You hypocrite, why not all???? Or do you only regard one calendar the truth??? Or two???
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Ya Akhi, leave the creations and seek the Lord of the creations, that's all Muhammad (saw) taught, but the Imami sect went out of Ghuluw and did the opposite.
Listen to them, how often do they say "Ya Muhammad?" Seriously I ask you! Don't they mostly say "Ya `Ali"? They claim to be logical and rational but if they were they'd call on Allah's greatest creation Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw).
I agree.
This thread has melted my brain. I can't believe somebody would claim that calling on Allah (s.w.t) is useless and then go on to compare him to a mechanic. I'm at a loss for words . . .
Mash'Allah, dude.
You're seeing reason, but it's not melted my brain it's left me in stiches, ROFL.
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Ameen, just a random question, when is your birthday????? Tell me?? And what calendar are you using??? Hijri calendar or Christian calendar??? Why not budhist calendar??? You hypocrite, why not all???? Or do you only regard one calendar the truth??? Or two???
LOL. And how am I a hypocrite??? What is your point regarding calendars???
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Ameen, just a random question, when is your birthday????? Tell me?? And what calendar are you using??? Hijri calendar or Christian calendar??? Why not budhist calendar??? You hypocrite, why not all???? Or do you only regard one calendar the truth??? Or two???
Becareful akhi, make fun of his comments and views, but not him personally.
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I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
Mr Taha, because Ali (RA) is dead in this life, and thus can't hear ought' you have to say from your mouth or your heart. He couldn't help himself when he was murdered how on Earth is he going to help anyone else?
Like Abu Bakr (RA) told the companions when the Prophet (SAW) passed away:
"Let it be told that who used to worship Mohammad (SAW) is, he (SAW) is now passed, but he used to worship Allah (SAW) let it be told Allah is forever and all knowing" to the nearest meaning.
Take his advise as a hint and start developing a habit of calling upon Allah alone. It's feels right when you get used to it and won't kill you to stop calling upon human beings no matter who he/she maybe.
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Nobody cares about the fatawa I pasted here 0.o
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Ameen, just a random question, when is your birthday????? Tell me?? And what calendar are you using??? Hijri calendar or Christian calendar??? Why not budhist calendar??? You hypocrite, why not all???? Or do you only regard one calendar the truth??? Or two???
Becareful akhi, make fun of his comments and views, but not him personally.
Brother I wouldn't even make fun of your comments and views, let alo e you and your Aqeedah. I would challenge and or discuss them. But I guess we're not all the same. So there is no problem on my behalf. Let him carry on the way he wants to.
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I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
Mr Taha, because Ali (RA) is dead in this life, and thus can't hear ought' you have to say from your mouth or your heart. He couldn't help himself when he was murdered how on Earth is he going to help anyone else?
Like Abu Bakr (RA) told the companions when the Prophet (SAW) passed away:
"Let it be told that who used to worship Mohammad (SAW) is, he (SAW) is now passed, but he used to worship Allah (SAW) let it be told Allah is forever and all knowing" to the nearest meaning.
Take his advise as a hint and start developing a habit of calling upon Allah alone. It's feels right when you get used to it and won't kill you to stop calling upon human beings no matter who he/she maybe.
Brother those who are martyred are not dead and Allah doesn't want them to be called or remembered as dead. They are alive and well, just like me and you and are recieving rizq from Allah. There verses in the Quran and I'm sure you are familiar with it.
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I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
Mr Taha, because Ali (RA) is dead in this life, and thus can't hear ought' you have to say from your mouth or your heart. He couldn't help himself when he was murdered how on Earth is he going to help anyone else?
Like Abu Bakr (RA) told the companions when the Prophet (SAW) passed away:
"Let it be told that who used to worship Mohammad (SAW) is, he (SAW) is now passed, but he used to worship Allah (SAW) let it be told Allah is forever and all knowing" to the nearest meaning.
Take his advise as a hint and start developing a habit of calling upon Allah alone. It's feels right when you get used to it and won't kill you to stop calling upon human beings no matter who he/she maybe.
Brother those who are martyred are not dead and Allah doesn't want them to be called or remembered as dead. They are alive and well, just like me and you and are recieving rizq from Allah. There verses in the Quran and I'm sure you are familiar with it.
I am, but this is why I said Ali (RA) is not alive in this life. Allah (SWT) doesn't mean they're literally alive, but it is to honour their sacrifice. I could be wrong, but the point remains. Anyone who is passed on from this life are in no position to hear our pleads and calls for help, but Allah (SWT).
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If you say salaam upon rasullulah (saw), the angels send it to him (saw).
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@Brother Taha,
Is there anything wrong with asking the knower of the unseen to help me with homework?
If by knower of the unseen you mean `Ali, him knowing the unseen in his grave is of no use to us, it is no help to you, so why mention his knowledge of the unseen?
Yeah, I get what you're saying, but this can be taken to an extreme. I mean, if this is the case, then there's no point in Dua at all, is there? We can't change Allah's (s.w.t) mind by asking him to. But that's not the case, as we have many examples of the Prophet (s.a.w.a) performing dua for himself, his family, his companions, his tribe, his ummah, etc. Therefore, supplications do have some effect, right?
You're not changing Allah's mind, Allah already knows whether you're going to call on him or not and whether you're going to be granted what you ask for or not. You call on him because you are ordered to do so and submit to him just as you were ordered to give charity and fast.
As for asking a human to ask Allah for you, such as going to your mother and telling her: "O mother, ask Allah to grant me success."
The above is acceptable and recommended. However, you also have to ask Allah for it and not just your mother alone, your mother's Du`a' would be additional blessing for you because Allah ordered you to seek the blessing and happiness of your mother, asking your mother for Du`a' actually pleases Allah as it shows that you acknowledge a mother's status and if your mother is pleased with you then her Du`a' will have even more Barakah.
Of course, you won't receive any Barakah or reward if you don't ask Allah yourself while believing in Allah's ability to answer your call. Otherwise, imagine a rich guy who hires 10 scholars to make Du`a' for him while he's fooling around and not turning towards Allah himself? What reward and what spiritual fulfillment will this man have? Nothing.
The above was the first case, and it is not the topic of our discussion, do you know why? Because the majority of Shia never say "O `Ali ask Allah to make me succeed", rather they say "O `Ali make me succeed." [Ya `Ali Madad.]
The above is a direct call for help, and so you are asking a slave of Allah for help, an example would be:
"`Ali please get me a horse."
This can be one of two cases:
A- You go to your `Ali's room and ask him for a horse, then he can go and buy you a horse if he chooses and if he is successful in doing so.
B- `Ali is dead, you ask him to get a horse and you expect him to hear your call and grant you your wish through a divine ability or power he possesses.
What's the difference between the two?
In the first, you acknowledge that `Ali is a weak slave like yourself, and that he has to place an effort and use any means granted to him by Allah (such as hard earned money) to help you and there's no guarantee he will succeed.
In the second, you believe that `Ali is omnipresent and all hearing (otherwise why call him if he can't hear?), he has powers to listen and understand your needs as well as the needs of others who call at a similar time even if you do not explain in detail what you ask for, thus he knows what is in your heart, and even though he has no real physical presence, yet he has the power over creations that can grant you what you wish if he wills to help you.
The second is obvious Shirk as you've cancelled the Du`a' to Allah altogether, literally replacing everything Allah can do with `Ali. If that's not associating with Allah then what is?
The Du`a' to Allah is always superior, when addressing Allah you don't even need to explain yourself, you can just say "O Allah, you know what has afflicted me so please help me in it." On the other hand, you can't say: "O `Ali, you know what has afflicted me so please ask Allah to help me with what you know." Because matter of the fact is, assuming `Ali was even alive and with you in the room, he doesn't actually know what has afflicted you, you need to tell him so he may know.
I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
Because he isn't physically alive, he's spiritually alive with his Lord in the heavens, if he was physically alive, he could walk to his own grave instead of having others carry him, he could wash himself or at least give them instructions on how to prepare his body and wash it and where to bury him.
So assuming he is still sitting in a hole in the ground with his physical body still capable of hearing, you're going to have to go to his grave and shout hoping he's going to hear you which even if possible would be impractical.
This nation needs to understand that its Prophet (saw) died, and that it is time to move on and progress, because loving the Prophet (saw) is not about shouting his name day and night "Ya Muhammad Ya Muhammad." rather loving him is following his example WHICH NONE OF US DO!
Those who were alive in the time of the Prophet (saw) had a greater blessing than us, we need to understand that we do not have access to that blessing anymore, if there's some verse I don't understand I can't go to Rasul-Allah (saw) and ask him to explain it, because he's dead. I know this and you know this, if right now we go to his grave to ask him a simple question of Fiqh he won't answer, even though as we all believe it is incumbent upon a prophet to carry out his duties of guiding and explaining the religion, yet he won't do it which could mean either he's a sinner who abandoned his divine task, or he's a fraud and not a real prophet, OR because he is incapable of doing so as he has died.
Anyway, a lot more can be said about this whole grave worship thing whether Sufis or Shia or Sikh or whoever does it.
Apparently the Prophet (s.a.w.a) did it at Khaybar (when `Ali was back in Madinah ......)
This is a fabrication, and even if it happened it is counted as a miracle which is an exception and not a general rule.
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I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
I have seen Shia scholars also make the same argument but this is against the Quran.
Allah says:
قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَىٰ أَنفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوا مِن رَّحْمَةِ اللَّـهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ
Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (39:53)
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^In fact Rafidah and their brothers the extreme Sufis (whom the Rafidah for obvious reason call "true Sunnis") all compare Allah to the creation and portray him as an angry, not forgiven God!
They compare him to the creation (what they accuse the so called Wahhabis of!) by comparing Allah to a director of a company whom you are not supposed to approach directly, rather through his secretary. Obviously they never read the Qur'an since it is Allah who ORDERS us to call upon HIM directly:
Call upon Me; I will respond to you (40:60)
And they also don't realise that the creator is different to the creations. Yes, nobody approaches a big company or a director/CEO straight away, rather you first approach him by "means" (like his secretary). Also the creation (like us humans) do not want to be asked for much favours. Example: The best mannered and generous Muslim will be annoyed if somebody asks him for favours five times a day, but ALLAH is different, he LOVES to be asked for favours, he WANTS us to pray to him only. Yes, we can ask someone to pray for us but that's not invoking him, that's asking him, as for asking someone (even IF he's alive) who is not capable to answer (and even Shuhada' cant' answer millions of calls, there is no evidence for that, that's the power of Allah only), than this is a foolish thing to do, to say the least. Allah wants us to ask him, and unlike the creation he does not get annoyed by us asking (quite the opposite), so it is wrong when Mushriks like Rafidah or other heretical sects compare Allah to directors of a company or what not.
As for us being "too sinful to asking direct" then this is one of the biggest traps of satan, nothing but a lie and brother Abu Muslim quoted the verse that destroys this cheap excuse to drag people away from the worship of Allah. As for the liar Ameen who said:
Quote from Ameen
"We don't call upon anyone apart from Allah. And I agree with you that this is a dumb narrow minded topic but it's Ebn Hussein who believes in it. Most of your threads are dumb and narrow minded but I know you are hesitant when it comes to others. What, you've had enough already???
No it's not Ebn Hussein who believes it. You have become the laughing stock of this forum, everybody (and don't think the respected readers are as deluded as you are) has realised how your posts contain nothing but your personal opinions, no Qur'an, no narrations, no refutation, just personal rantings and you lied again, for you Rafidah, you Mushriks barely call Allah, to a point where your Persian Magi (Majoos) charlatans (that you call "Ayatullahs") fool their own people by claiming that the first words the tyrant and kisra of our time Khamenei uttered was not Ya Allah but rather Ya Ali (just right after his mommy gave birth!!!!):
In fact Rafidi scholars preach that calling upon Allah directly is haram (prohibited) i.e. they literally oppose the Qur'an for the sake of upholding their catholic style saint worship:
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I never saw a Shii saying ya Allah.
I have a question for some members here. Is it shirk to say " peace be upon you, rasullulah" ?
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Imam al-Bukhari related in his Adab al-Mufrad (no. 964):
Abu Nu’aym related to us who said that Sufyan related to us from Abu Ishaq from Abdar Rahman ibn Sa’d, who said:
Ibn Umar had numbness in his leg, whereupon a man said to him:
“Remember the most beloved of people to you”, so he said: “Ya Muhammad”
If you weaken it, please don't come with Al-Albani's criteria, but with the commentatory of scholars of the past.
I also found this:
http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
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Imam al-Bukhari related in his Adab al-Mufrad (no. 964):
Abu Nu’aym related to us who said that Sufyan related to us from Abu Ishaq from Abdar Rahman ibn Sa’d, who said:
Ibn Umar had numbness in his leg, whereupon a man said to him:
“Remember the most beloved of people to you”, so he said: “Ya Muhammad”
If you weaken it, please don't come with Al-Albani's criteria, but with the commentatory of scholars of the past.
I also found this:
http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
I looked into the above a while back, I don't believe it's evidence for Istighathah at all. He just mentioned the name of a person he loves, he didn't say "O Muhammad, heal my leg."
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Imam al-Bukhari related in his Adab al-Mufrad (no. 964):
Abu Nu’aym related to us who said that Sufyan related to us from Abu Ishaq from Abdar Rahman ibn Sa’d, who said:
Ibn Umar had numbness in his leg, whereupon a man said to him:
“Remember the most beloved of people to you”, so he said: “Ya Muhammad”
If you weaken it, please don't come with Al-Albani's criteria, but with the commentatory of scholars of the past.
I also found this:
http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
I looked into the above a while back, I don't believe it's evidence for Istighathah at all. He just mentioned the name of a person he loves, he didn't say "O Muhammad, heal my leg."
Hani, is this narration not weak?
Seeing as though it's from Adab al-Mufrad, Bukhari's collection of weak Hadiths.
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Yes maybe Hani, but I remember that Hanbalis (maybe not all) use this as an evidence to say " ya rasululah" when something like this occurs.
But even if we say ya rasululah out of love, people call you kafir. Or saying: Ya Nabi salaam alayka.
Some even go to far extremes to change "assalamu alayka ayuhan nabiyu" in the tashahud.
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Yes maybe Hani, but I remember that Hanbalis (maybe not all) use this as an evidence to say " ya rasululah" when something like this occurs.
But even if we say ya rasululah out of love, people call you kafir. Or saying: Ya Nabi salaam alayka.
Some even go to far extremes to change "assalamu alayka ayuhan nabiyu" in the tashahud.
You mean to say the Hanabalis call upon the Prophet (SAW) like the Rafidahs do?
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Like worshipping? No.
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Yes maybe Hani, but I remember that Hanbalis (maybe not all) use this as an evidence to say " ya rasululah" when something like this occurs.
But even if we say ya rasululah out of love, people call you kafir. Or saying: Ya Nabi salaam alayka.
Some even go to far extremes to change "assalamu alayka ayuhan nabiyu" in the tashahud.
Yeah that's their error. They told him "Mention the name of the one you love." They didn't say ask Muhammad (saw) to heal you.
And he only said: "O Muhammad." he didn't say "O Muhammad, heal me." big difference. Taking the context into consideration he could just be saying "O Muhammad I love you."
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So we can agree on the fact that if we say ya rasululah to express our love for him (saw) and use this love as waseela to ask allah for help?
I personally say: Help me/forgive me for the love You (Allah) have for Rasululah. But actually it comes down to the same as stated in the first 2 lines in this post, right?
So we should watch out with takfeer.
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So we can agree on the fact that if we say ya rasululah to express our love for him (saw) and use this love as waseela to ask allah for help?
I personally say: Help me/forgive me for the love You (Allah) have for Rasululah. But actually it comes down to the same as stated in the first 2 lines in this post, right?
So we should watch out with takfeer.
Is there anything wrong in saying "O Rasul-Allah I love you"?
Very common, just like we say "O Rasul-Allah peace be upon you" during prayer.
The topic of discussion is calling on a dead slave for help, and its validity according to Qur'an and Sunnah.
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Basically, Ibn `Umar was from the Awliya' of Allah, he received a Karamah because of his extreme love for Rasul-Allah (saw).
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Basically, Ibn `Umar was from the Awliya' of Allah, he received a Karamah because of his extreme love for Rasul-Allah (saw).
Hmm interresting, can you explain this part: "he received a Karamah"
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Hmm interresting, can you explain this part: "he received a Karamah"
A person's leg usually takes time to heal, but since he was a pious friend of Allah, a Wali, then he was granted this blessing that healed him quickly out of his sincere love for Rasul-Allah (saw).
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I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
Mr Taha, because Ali (RA) is dead in this life, and thus can't hear ought' you have to say from your mouth or your heart. He couldn't help himself when he was murdered how on Earth is he going to help anyone else?
Like Abu Bakr (RA) told the companions when the Prophet (SAW) passed away:
"Let it be told that who used to worship Mohammad (SAW) is, he (SAW) is now passed, but he used to worship Allah (SAW) let it be told Allah is forever and all knowing" to the nearest meaning.
Take his advise as a hint and start developing a habit of calling upon Allah alone. It's feels right when you get used to it and won't kill you to stop calling upon human beings no matter who he/she maybe.
Brother those who are martyred are not dead and Allah doesn't want them to be called or remembered as dead. They are alive and well, just like me and you and are recieving rizq from Allah. There verses in the Quran and I'm sure you are familiar with it.
I am, but this is why I said Ali (RA) is not alive in this life. Allah (SWT) doesn't mean they're literally alive, but it is to honour their sacrifice. I could be wrong, but the point remains. Anyone who is passed on from this life are in no position to hear our pleads and calls for help, but Allah (SWT).
Brother this is where the misunderstanding comes in. If Ali (as) is not alive in this life then, this surely means he is dead. But Allah says they are not dead but alive and are receiving rizq from Allah. So what is the difference then??? Someone dies instantly and suddenly, through short or long term illness, due to accidental death, murdered or martyred, they all have left this world and their spirit is separated from their body. But Allah has singled out martyrdom and said that martyrs are not dead. So what does this mean??? Either your are alive or you're dead, is there anything in between???
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Hmm interresting, can you explain this part: "he received a Karamah"
A person's leg usually takes time to heal, but since he was a pious friend of Allah, a Wali, then he was granted this blessing that healed him quickly out of his sincere love for Rasul-Allah (saw).
I've never heard anything like this before from a Sunni. Healing because of love??? And this unique power, strength or what ever you want to call it, is a blessing??? When Shias say and believing in something similar about their Imams then, there is a lot fuss.?????????????
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I've never heard anything like this before from a Sunni. Healing because of love??? And this unique power, strength or what ever you want to call it, is a blessing??? When Shias say and believing in something similar about their Imams then, there is a lot fuss.?????????????
If you don't know what Awliya' and Karamat are, get educated.
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I never saw a Shii saying ya Allah.
I have a question for some members here. Is it shirk to say " peace be upon you, rasullulah" ?
Nobody ever said that's shirk, and Deobandies have a very good understanding of Tawassul (the shari3i one not the shirki one). You have to understand the language of the Arabs to understand that merely saying Ya Rasulallah etc. is not shirk:
https://gift2sufis.wordpress.com/2013/11/07/saying-ya-muhammadwaa-muhammadaah-a-misused-arabic-expression-to-advocate-shirk/
Some even go to far extremes to change "assalamu alayka ayuhan nabiyu" in the tashahud.
You probably mean the likes of IBN OMAR with some since it is AUTHENTICALLY reported from some sahaba that they said as-salamu' 3ala An-Nabiyy (SAWS) after the Prophet's (SAWS) demise. In any case, both version (as-salamu 'alayki and 'ala) are right and authentic so it has nothing to do with extremism. What is extreme is to be ignorant of the Arab language like the Rafidah and to mix up everything, not understanding that in the Arab language one can address someone directly (like Rasulullah) but in a form of remembrance NOT prayer to him, secondly the tashahhud is a prayer FOR Prophet Muhammad not TO Prophet Muhammad (and angels deliver the Salam), so in any case it is not praying TO him and asking your needs FROM his as Rafidah and some extremist Sufis do.
Imam al-Bukhari related in his Adab al-Mufrad (no. 964):
Abu Nu’aym related to us who said that Sufyan related to us from Abu Ishaq from Abdar Rahman ibn Sa’d, who said:
Ibn Umar had numbness in his leg, whereupon a man said to him:
“Remember the most beloved of people to you”, so he said: “Ya Muhammad”
If you weaken it, please don't come with Al-Albani's criteria, but with the commentatory of scholars of the past.
I also found this:
http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogspot.co.uk/?m=1
Even if the authenticity of the narration is proven, again the narration is not problematic at all and has NOTHING to do what Rafidah and other extremist sects do. Think about it:
1. Did Ibn Omar PRAY to the Prophet?! NO, he remembered him (in Arabic we remember ANYONE, dead or alive by saying YA FULAN ... WAA FULAN etc.)
2. Did Ibn Omar asked the Prophet for ANY of his needs, like to be cured?1 Again, NO. He just reminded himself of a VERY dear person i.e. the Messenger of Allah (SAWS).
So doesn't matter if the hadith is sahih or dha3if since it has nothing to do with praying to other than Allah like Rafidah and extremist Sufis do when they address the Prophet directly ASKING him (praying to him) for ALL their needs.
See, when I feel sad (or feel pain) I remember the most beloved person to me, which is RASULULLAH (SAWS), I do the same thing as Ibn Omar, nothing wrong with it.
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So we can agree on the fact that if we say ya rasululah to express our love for him (saw) and use this love as waseela to ask allah for help?
I personally say: Help me/forgive me for the love You (Allah) have for Rasululah. But actually it comes down to the same as stated in the first 2 lines in this post, right?
So we should watch out with takfeer.
Yes, tawassul bil-jah (what you explained) is accepted by the jumhour of Ahl Al-Sunnah, even Hanbalis, nothing wrong with it (also the opinion that it is bid3a is ok, a minority opinion, but still an opinion). As for watching out for takfir. Ya Akhi, please, we are not talking about these forms of tawassul and Rafidah have NOTHING to do with these forms of Tawassul they PRAY to their Imams DIRECTLY and ASK for all their NEEDS, heck their satanic scholars teach their braindead followers to NOT call on Allah directly:
So know Akhi, that a Muslims always observers the waqi3ah (reality) of a matter not some hypothecial scenarios like the tawassul that you mentioned and that Rawafid are barely involved in.
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Yes I agree with your post ebn Hussein. What I meant with extremists are people who only see "assalamu ala nabi" as correct, since they see "assalamu alayka ayyuhan nabiyu " as shirk or whatsoever.
Anyway, excusse me for not knowing arabic. I take your advises with open arms :)
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I'm a dirty sinner. If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too. Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me. Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?
Mr Taha, because Ali (RA) is dead in this life, and thus can't hear ought' you have to say from your mouth or your heart. He couldn't help himself when he was murdered how on Earth is he going to help anyone else?
Like Abu Bakr (RA) told the companions when the Prophet (SAW) passed away:
"Let it be told that who used to worship Mohammad (SAW) is, he (SAW) is now passed, but he used to worship Allah (SAW) let it be told Allah is forever and all knowing" to the nearest meaning.
Take his advise as a hint and start developing a habit of calling upon Allah alone. It's feels right when you get used to it and won't kill you to stop calling upon human beings no matter who he/she maybe.
Brother those who are martyred are not dead and Allah doesn't want them to be called or remembered as dead. They are alive and well, just like me and you and are recieving rizq from Allah. There verses in the Quran and I'm sure you are familiar with it.
I am, but this is why I said Ali (RA) is not alive in this life. Allah (SWT) doesn't mean they're literally alive, but it is to honour their sacrifice. I could be wrong, but the point remains. Anyone who is passed on from this life are in no position to hear our pleads and calls for help, but Allah (SWT).
Brother this is where the misunderstanding comes in. If Ali (as) is not alive in this life then, this surely means he is dead. But Allah says they are not dead but alive and are receiving rizq from Allah. So what is the difference then??? Someone dies instantly and suddenly, through short or long term illness, due to accidental death, murdered or martyred, they all have left this world and their spirit is separated from their body. But Allah has singled out martyrdom and said that martyrs are not dead. So what does this mean??? Either your are alive or you're dead, is there anything in between???
Ali (RA) was murdered, and his soul was taken by the angel of death. Come to terms with that.
You're understanding of the verse is confused described at best. Allah (SWT) is saying "don't even speak of them as being dead" to the nearest meaning. Allah (SWT) is not saying categorically all martyrs are re-awakened in the grave and then they're chilling out until the angel blows the horn signalling the final moments.
Yes, there is an in-between transitional phase. What is your understanding of when we're accounted in the grave by the angels Munkar and Nankeer? You think we're physically awakened?
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Ebn Hussein I just see now yiur second post. In regards too that, seems like you are against sufism.
For the ones who try interpreting hadith or aya on theirselves, i recommend to stop and rather have a look at this:
http://www.central-mosque.com/index.php/Aqeedah/life-of-rasul-ullah-sallaho-alaihe-wassallamin-the-grave-a-salutations-upon-him.html
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I am not against Sufism, tasawwuf is a science, even the likes of Ibn Taymiyyah wrote in support of it, all great scholars of Ahl Al-Sunnah were Sufis if you like, but not like the Mushrik ones who misuse the term and have introduced all sorts of bida3 and kufriyat in the name of tasawwuf (just like Rafidah did in the name of tashayyu'/loving the Prophet's household). I am against what even Deobandies are against: Zandaqa and shirk in the name of Sunnism or Sufism or Shiism. Please, just concentrate on refuting Shiism, for if you wanna start this then I can prove to you from Deobandies themselves that they regard istighatha as extreme Sufis (not all) and Rafidah do as Shirk and kufr.
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Any more posts on Tasawwuf below this one will be deleted. The true Sufiyyah have a very special relation with Allah, they do not need intermediaries in the first place.
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Ghayr in sha Allah. Let's focus on our target, the shia creed.