Yaa Zahra!!!

[Hani]

And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.

Calling on Allah is our philosophy in life and it is our entire religion, everything we do is in his name, so don't worry about "how Allah can help", if Allah didn't wish to help you'd be dead and obliterated as we speak.

[Bolani Muslim]

And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.

Do you even consider yourself  a muslim?

[Hani]

You made me smile because I don't have a proper response.


My only thoughts are, why would Allah (s.w.t) keep him alive several feet underground?  That makes no sense.

Ya Akhi, leave the creations and seek the Lord of the creations, that's all Muhammad (saw) taught, but the Imami sect went out of Ghuluw and did the opposite.

Listen to them, how often do they say "Ya Muhammad?" Seriously I ask you! Don't they mostly say "Ya `Ali"? They claim to be logical and rational but if they were they'd call on Allah's greatest creation Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw).

[Taha]

Ya Akhi, leave the creations and seek the Lord of the creations, that's all Muhammad (saw) taught, but the Imami sect went out of Ghuluw and did the opposite.

Listen to them, how often do they say "Ya Muhammad?" Seriously I ask you! Don't they mostly say "Ya `Ali"? They claim to be logical and rational but if they were they'd call on Allah's greatest creation Muhammad ibn `Abdillah (saw).

I agree.


This thread has melted my brain.  I can't believe somebody would claim that calling on Allah (s.w.t) is useless and then go on to compare him to a mechanic.  I'm at a loss for words . . .

[Hani]

Aren't their non-literal interpretations of the verse
BTW, why do shias never do tawassul with shaheeds (except Karbala)? I've never at my masjid heard the mullah say "Ya Sumaya (ra) idrikni"

You hit on a sensitive topic, you see certain sects criticize others by accusing them of being "too literal" yet they teach their followers what is equally "literal" and assume that at this moment, Muhammad (saw) and `Ali are just sitting with nothing to do except hear our requests and transmit them to Allah.

A call center.

[Bolani Muslim]

*edited
My mom's response when I asked her why we don't say 'Ya Muhammad maddad' or pray to him (saw)
"Bachem (dear son), you are loved the most by me and I'm the head of the house so if someone praises you I'm happy, Same with Hazrat Muhammad (saww) and relationship of Imam Ali (ka), so it's both equal in reward (now Hazrat Ali and Mohammad (saw) are happy by praying to Hazrat Ali)"

[Taha]

^My mom's response when I asked her why we don't say 'Ya Muhammad maddad' or pray to him (saw)
"Bachem, since you're loved the most loved to me, Same with Hazrat Muhammad (saww) and Imam Ali (ka) so it's both equal"

Can you reword her response into different words?  I don't quite understand it ...

[Ameen]

And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.
[/quote

Calling on Allah is our philosophy in life and it is our entire religion, everything we do is in his name, so don't worry about "how Allah can help", if Allah didn't wish to help you'd be dead and obliterated as we speak.

And we believe in the same brother. The only difference is, we do not envy you. This is we're the problem is when it comes to your kind. I believe in people like Sahib Zadah Hamid Raza of the Sunni Etihad Council of Pakistan, who is doing tremendous work in building community relations. Now these are the real Ahle Sunnah and this is what Ahle Sunnah is all about. Not just a group of brothers full of bitterness, hatred and envy running such a forum and using the Ahle Sunnah platform.

[Hani]

I agree.


This thread has melted my brain.  I can't believe somebody would claim that calling on Allah (s.w.t) is useless and then go on to compare him to a mechanic.  I'm at a loss for words . . .

Because he wants to justify his beliefs no matter what. For him now, if you call your friend to help you with your homework is equal to saying "Ya `Ali Madad" or "O `Ali help me". Allah created the human community and told them to work together and help each-other and do acts of kindness to one another, Allah also told us that everything happens by his will and that if everyone decided to help you yet he did not wish it, then you will not be helped, thus to Allah return all affairs and He is in control of the flow of events, He is All hearing, All seeing, All knowing and is more merciful than his creations.

So logically, why call on his creations? When you call, Allah will hear you before `Ali does, and Allah is more merciful rather infinitely merciful than `Ali, so why not call on Allah instead of `Ali?

Another thing is, the Imami bro above said: "How can Allah help." Then I ask: "How can `Ali help"? Fact is, calling on Allah is obligatory, it is a sign of submission to his power, an act of worship for which we are rewarded, it is not a condition that Allah will fulfill all our wishes, otherwise life itself will have no purpose and the entire wisdom of this world is gone.

[Ameen]

And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you??? Will he appear himself??? If you drive and your car breaks down then do you call Allah or the recovery service??? If you need a push start, then what??? Lets not ask anyone or passer by for help since this would be calling on someone apart from Allah??? When you start such discussions it seems like common basic sense has gone AWOL.

Do you even consider yourself  a muslim?

Absolutely my friend. But I'm not one of those who likes to slag others Aqeedah and belief, like you I guess.

[Hani]

@Ameen,

And we believe in the same brother. The only difference is, we do not envy you. This is we're the problem is when it comes to your kind. I believe in people like Sahib Zadah Hamid Raza of the Sunni Etihad Council of Pakistan, who is doing tremendous work in building community relations. Now these are the real Ahle Sunnah and this is what Ahle Sunnah is all about. Not just a group of brothers full of bitterness, hatred and envy running such a forum and using the Ahle Sunnah platform.

We envy you? I think you got it wrong, there's nothing in Tashayyu` that we envy, nothing good was every produced from Tashayyu`, if anything we need more Sunnism than Shiasm lol.


As for the dude you mentioned, I dunno him.

[Ameen]

I agree.


This thread has melted my brain.  I can't believe somebody would claim that calling on Allah (s.w.t) is useless and then go on to compare him to a mechanic.  I'm at a loss for words . . .

Because he wants to justify his beliefs no matter what. For him now, if you call your friend to help you with your homework is equal to saying "Ya `Ali Madad" or "O `Ali help me". Allah created the human community and told them to work together and help each-other and do acts of kindness to one another, Allah also told us that everything happens by his will and that if everyone decided to help you yet he did not wish it, then you will not be helped, thus to Allah return all affairs and He is in control of the flow of events, He is All hearing, All seeing, All knowing and is more merciful than his creations.

So logically, why call on his creations? When you call, Allah will hear you before `Ali does, and Allah is more merciful rather infinitely merciful than `Ali, so why not call on Allah instead of `Ali?

Another thing is, the Imami bro above said: "How can Allah help." Then I ask: "How can `Ali help"? Fact is, calling on Allah is obligatory, it is a sign of submission to his power, an act of worship for which we are rewarded, it is not a condition that Allah will fulfill all our wishes, otherwise life itself will have no purpose and the entire wisdom of this world is gone.

You love to put your words in people's mouths, don't you??? I know you boys are hell bent in doing your best to destroy Shiaism . "Don't ask the Shias what they are about, we know them better than they know themselves", what can I say about you??? Rather than asking me about my post, you've decided to explain it yourself by giving it your meaning. Wow! I'm not surprised because I've faced and dealt with a lot of such kind.

[Husayn]

I was debating this point with a friend of mine years ago - the issue of tawassul. I asked - "If a million people all say Ya 'Ali and ask him for something, how can 'Ali possibly answer all these requests?". So he says, "Can't Allah do anything??".

Another incident - a Sheikh once said to me - "Tawassul is just reaching Allah through a certain path or connection". So I thought that basically, tawassul is like a huge LAN, and you get the best speeds when going through certain people. Going through 'Ali, for example, is like using a 1 Gbps Fiber Optic Cable.

[Hani]

@Ameen,

You love to put your words in people's mouths, don't you??? I know you boys are hell bent in doing your best to destroy Shiaism . "Don't ask the Shias what they are about, we know them better than they know themselves", what can I say about you??? Rather than asking me about my post, you've decided to explain it yourself by giving it your meaning. Wow! I'm not surprised because I've faced and dealt with a lot of such kind.

So you post something and I'm not expected to understand it, rather I'm supposed to ask you about your post?


Okay Ameen, please tell me about your post... or wait, I'm actually going to bed now, you can tell us about your complicated posts later as it seems no one can interpret them except an infallible.

[Ameen]

@Ameen,

And we believe in the same brother. The only difference is, we do not envy you. This is we're the problem is when it comes to your kind. I believe in people like Sahib Zadah Hamid Raza of the Sunni Etihad Council of Pakistan, who is doing tremendous work in building community relations. Now these are the real Ahle Sunnah and this is what Ahle Sunnah is all about. Not just a group of brothers full of bitterness, hatred and envy running such a forum and using the Ahle Sunnah platform.

We envy you? I think you got it wrong, there's nothing in Tashayyu` that we envy, nothing good was every produced from Tashayyu`, if anything we need more Sunnism than Shiasm lol.


As for the dude you mentioned, I dunno him.

Nothing good was ever produced from Tashayyu??? Lol. This is exactly what extremism is all about. Seeing nothing good in something (Shiaism) and seeing nothing wrong in something (Sunnism). You need more Sunnism??? Lol. You need more of something (Sunnism) that you can't even speak and talk about??? Lol. The only way you can have more of Sunnism is by making Shiaism look more bad. Lol. There is a small difference between you and Shiaism and the west and Islam. You are hidden but the west is open.

[Bolani Muslim]

Ameen jaan, it's not that hard to decipher what you wrote. You questioned the fact that praying to Allah helps us. You wrote "And you call upon Allah then tell me how is he going to help you???" That's something only an athiest would say.

[Ameen]

@Ameen,

You love to put your words in people's mouths, don't you??? I know you boys are hell bent in doing your best to destroy Shiaism . "Don't ask the Shias what they are about, we know them better than they know themselves", what can I say about you??? Rather than asking me about my post, you've decided to explain it yourself by giving it your meaning. Wow! I'm not surprised because I've faced and dealt with a lot of such kind.

So you post something and I'm not expected to understand it, rather I'm supposed to ask you about your post?


Okay Ameen, please tell me about your post... or wait, I'm actually going to bed now, you can tell us about your complicated posts later as it seems no one can interpret them except an infallible.

My response is "LOL". Wel,l that is the only response to your jokes. Nice one. Cheerio for now.

[Furkan]

Aren't their non-literal interpretations of the verse
BTW, why do shias never do tawassul with shaheeds (except Karbala)? I've never at my masjid heard the mullah say "Ya Sumaya (ra) idrikni"

You hit on a sensitive topic, you see certain sects criticize others by accusing them of being "too literal" yet they teach their followers what is equally "literal" and assume that at this moment, Muhammad (saw) and `Ali are just sitting with nothing to do except hear our requests and transmit them to Allah.

A call center.

Hani, see my 2 posts which are pretty long, 2 fatawa.

[Taha]

Because he wants to justify his beliefs no matter what. For him now, if you call your friend to help you with your homework is equal to saying "Ya `Ali Madad" or "O `Ali help me".

Is there anything wrong with asking the knower of the unseen to help me with homework? 

Allah created the human community and told them to work together and help each-other and do acts of kindness to one another, Allah also told us that everything happens by his will and that if everyone decided to help you yet he did not wish it, then you will not be helped, thus to Allah return all affairs and He is in control of the flow of events, He is All hearing, All seeing, All knowing and is more merciful than his creations.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but this can be taken to an extreme.  I mean, if this is the case, then there's no point in Dua at all, is there?  We can't change Allah's (s.w.t) mind by asking him to.  But that's not the case, as we have many examples of the Prophet (s.a.w.a) performing dua for himself, his family, his companions, his tribe, his ummah, etc.  Therefore, supplications do have some effect, right? 

So logically, why call on his creations? When you call, Allah will hear you before `Ali does, and Allah is more merciful rather infinitely merciful than `Ali, so why not call on Allah instead of `Ali?

I'm a dirty sinner.  If I had a supplication, I could perform it myself but I could also ask my super religious friend to pray for me too.  Likewise, if Imam `Ali (a.s) was alive, I would ask him to pray for me.  Why should I stop asking for his intercession while he is ... still alive?

Another thing is, the Imami bro above said: "How can Allah help." Then I ask: "How can `Ali help"? Fact is, calling on Allah is obligatory, it is a sign of submission to his power, an act of worship for which we are rewarded, it is not a condition that Allah will fulfill all our wishes, otherwise life itself will have no purpose and the entire wisdom of this world is gone.

I agree, absolutely.  I am not one of those to say that Ya `Ali madad is better than Ya Allah madad.  But I don't see the harm in it, personally.  The Shias do it.  The Sufis do it.  Apparently the Prophet (s.a.w.a) did it at Khaybar (when `Ali was back in Madinah ......)

[Taha]

Another incident - a Sheikh once said to me - "Tawassul is just reaching Allah through a certain path or connection". So I thought that basically, tawassul is like a huge LAN, and you get the best speeds when going through certain people. Going through 'Ali, for example, is like using a 1 Gbps Fiber Optic Cable.

This. Is. Brilliant.