Abbas (RA) heard Abu Talib recite the kalimah?

[Optimus Prime]

I've heard there is a narration where Abbas (RA) heard Abu Talib reciting the Shahadah in his ear very lightly that the Prophet (SAW) never heard it?

Can someone post it, please?

[Farid]

This is impossible since it has been established through three or four authentic chains that the Prophet peace be upon him said that Abu Talib is in hellfire.

A source would still be interesting to examine, but as I said, this is impossible.

[Optimus Prime]

I found a source.

It is in Hadith - Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehalwi (r) has narrated from Ibn-e-Ishaq:  When the time of death of Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) drew near; Hadhrat Abbas (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) noticed that he is moving his lips silently. He brought his ears close to Hadhrat Abu Talib's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) mouth and said to Rasulullah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) "O nephew, I swear upon Allah ( سبحانہ و تعا لی ), my brother has recited that Kalima, which you were telling him to recite".

Shaikh Abdul Haq Muhaddis Dehalwi (r) wrote in another narration,  it has also been recorded that Rasulullah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) said in reply: "I have heard it." 

[Optimus Prime]

Sirat ibn Hisham, which is the first book seerah book written on the Beloved Prophet, older than Siha Sitta (Bukhari, Muslim Sharif etc.,), in fact he is their grand ustad and they have taken narrations from him.

He was born in 70AH (10 years before Imam Abu Hanifah (RA) so was a Tabi'i and took narrations directly from Sahaba (not 8-12 narrators in between).

In this most authentic biography it states that when The Holy Prophet asked Abu Talib to recite shahadah and he did not for that people would think he read it from fear of death (see above posts for full account), when the Holy Prophet had left, Sayyiduna 'Abbas states that Abu Talib recited the shahadah.

http://salafiaqeedah.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/in-defence-of-prophets-parents-and-abu.html

[Khaled]

I found a source.

It is in Hadith - Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehalwi (r) has narrated from Ibn-e-Ishaq:  When the time of death of Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) drew near; Hadhrat Abbas (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) noticed that he is moving his lips silently. He brought his ears close to Hadhrat Abu Talib's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) mouth and said to Rasulullah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) "O nephew, I swear upon Allah ( سبحانہ و تعا لی ), my brother has recited that Kalima, which you were telling him to recite".

Shaikh Abdul Haq Muhaddis Dehalwi (r) wrote in another narration,  it has also been recorded that Rasulullah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) said in reply: "I have heard it."

Even if the Shi'as quoted this honestly, the man who wrote that book died 1052H/1642AD!

It looks like you're basing this from some extremist Sufis, their quoting style is the same.

[Optimus Prime]

I found a source.

It is in Hadith - Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehalwi (r) has narrated from Ibn-e-Ishaq:  When the time of death of Abu Talib (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) drew near; Hadhrat Abbas (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) noticed that he is moving his lips silently. He brought his ears close to Hadhrat Abu Talib's (رضئ اللہ تعالی عنہ) mouth and said to Rasulullah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) "O nephew, I swear upon Allah ( سبحانہ و تعا لی ), my brother has recited that Kalima, which you were telling him to recite".

Shaikh Abdul Haq Muhaddis Dehalwi (r) wrote in another narration,  it has also been recorded that Rasulullah ( صلى الله عليه و آله وسلم ) said in reply: "I have heard it."

Even if the Shi'as quoted this honestly, the man who wrote that book died 1052H/1642AD!

I wonder what the chains for the narrations.

Read the article. He attempts to refute the narrations from Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib: That he said to the Prophet "You have not been of any avail to your uncle (Abu Talib) (though) by Allah, he used to protect you and used to become angry on your behalf." The Prophet said, "He is in a shallow fire, and had It not been for me, he would have been in the bottom of the (Hell) Fire." (Book #58, Hadith #222)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That he heard the Prophet when somebody mentioned his uncle (i.e. Abu Talib), saying, "Perhaps my intercession will be helpful to him on the Day of Resurrection so that he may be put in a shallow fire reaching only up to his ankles. His brain will boil from it." (Book #58, Hadith #224)


Narrated 'Abdullah bin Al-Harith bin Naufal: Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib said, "O Allah's Apostle! Did you benefit Abu Talib with anything as he used to protect and take care of you, and used to become angry for you?" The Prophet said, "Yes, he is in a shallow place of Fire. But for me he would have been in the lowest part of the Fire." (Book #73, Hadith #227)

 The two hadiths have been narrated from:


Sufyan ibn Sa’eed al-Thawri –

Abd al-Malik ibn Umayr –

Abd al-Aziz ibn Muhammad al Darawardi.


All three of them are extremely weak. About Sufyan, Imam al-Dhahabi, in his Mizan al-Itidal, Vol. 2, p. 169, says: He fabricates weak hadiths. About Abd al-Malik, he cites Ibn Kharash who said: He is extremely weak. He also cites the opinions of Abu Hatim, Ahmad and Ibn Ma’een, who all consider him weak.

Al-Dhahabi himself declares his memory unreliable (Mizan al-Itidal, Vol. 2, p. 660). About Abd al-Aziz, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Abu Hatim and Abu Zar’ah have all declared him weak (see Masdar Sabiq, Vol. 2, p. 634 and Mizan al-Itidal, tarjamah of Abd al-Aziz ibn Muhammad al-Darawardi.

[Khaled]

I wonder what the chains for the narrations.

Read the article. He attempts to refute the narrations from Sahih Muslim:

If they are attempting to weaken ahadeeth found in Sahih Muslim, then this position isn't anything new nor it is only the position of the Wahhabis and Deobandis like the author claims.

Brewlis are a disturbed bunch

[Farid]

To say that Ibn Ishaaq's Seerah is more authentic than Saheeh Al Bukhari is the biggest joke. No Muslim with self-respect would say this.

Moreover, in Mizan Al-I'itidal, we find this about Sufyan bin Sa'eed Al-Thawri:

سفيان بن سعيد الثوري الحجة الثبت، متفق عليه، مع أنه كان يدلس عن الضعفاء، ولكن كان له نقد وذوق، ولا عبرة لقول من قال: يدلس ويكتب عن الكذابين.

Rough translation:
Sufyan bin Sa'eed Al-Thawri, the agreed-upon and reliable hujjah. He weak made tadlees from weak narrators, but he was critical and picky (from who he narrated from)and there as there is no given weight to those that say: He makes tadlees from weak narrators.


Al-Thahabi also says in Siyar A'alam Al-Nubala 2/1836 about Sufyan Al-Thawri:

He is Shaikh Al-Islam, the memorizing Imam, the leader of the scholars of his time.

May Allah curse the liars who lead the people astray from the hadith of Rasool Allah salalahu alaihi wa salam because of their desires. If they loved him they would not be ashamed of his hadiths. Wallahi nobody loves him as much as the guardians of his hadith, Ahlul Sunnati wal Jama'a.

[Khaled]

To say that Ibn Ishaaq's Seerah is more authentic than Saheeh Al Bukhari is the biggest joke. No Muslim with self-respect would say this.

Its funny because the whole point of that article is to show that they ARE Ahl as-Sunnah, yet they go and say something like this.

And weakening a narration automatically because Sufyan at-Thawri عنعن is literally about as basic of a mistake as you can make when studying asaneed

[Aba AbdAllah]

59. Like Ahlesunnah even Imam Ali(ra) and Imam Zainul Abedin(ra)[1st and 4th shia Imam] believed that father of Ali(ra), Abu talib died as a kaafir. And a believer cannot inherit from kaafir.

A.  Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that Ali ibn Husayn ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib told him that Aqil and Talib inherited from Abu Talib, and Ali did not inherit from him. Ali said, “Because of that, we have given up our portion of ash Shab.” (A house belonging to Banu Hashim).[(MUWATTA MALIK) Book 27, Number 27.12.11]

B. Sahi BUKHARI 2.658: Narrated ‘Usama bin Zaid: I asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! Where will you stay in Mecca? Will you stay in your house in Mecca?” He replied, “Has `Aqil left any property or house?” `Aqil along with Talib had inherited the property of Abu Talib. Jafar and `Ali did not inherit anything as they were Muslims and the other two were non−believers. `Umar bin Al−Khattab used to say, “A believer cannot inherit (anything from an) infidel.” Ibn Shihab, (a sub−narrator) said, “They (`Umar and others) derived the above verdict from Allah’s Statement: “Verily! those who believed and Emigrated and strove with their life And property in Allah’s Cause, And those who helped (the emigrants) And gave them their places to live in, These are (all) allies to one another.” (8.72)

Comment: Thus like Ahlesunnah even the Imam of shias believed that a believer cannot inherit from a muslim, unlike what shias believe. The Imam even believed that Abu Talib died as a Kaafir, just like Ahlesunnah, which is against what shias believe.

C.  Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) narrates: I came to the Prophet PBUH and said: “Your old uncle who was astray has died so who will bury him?” He PBUH said: “Go and bury your father, and then do not do anything until you come to me.” Ali replied: “But he died as a Moushrik(Polytheist)” He PBUH said: “Go and bury him”, Ali said: “So I buried him and I came back.” then the Prophet PBUH said: “Go and make Ghusl(Wash up) and then do not do anything until you come to me.” Ali said: “I took a bath then came back to him. Then he made a Dua(Supplication) for me and nothing could have made me more happier.” and Ali used to take a bath whenever he washed the dead. [al-Albani said Sahih in “Ahkam al-Janaez” #169 and “al-Silsilah al-Sahiha” #161.]

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/part-1the-imams-from-ahlebayt-whom-shia-consider-to-be-their-divinely-appointed-imams-were-on-the-creed-of-ahlesunnah-wal-jamaah/

[Optimus Prime]

I wonder what the chains for the narrations.

Read the article. He attempts to refute the narrations from Sahih Muslim:

If they are attempting to weaken ahadeeth found in Sahih Muslim, then this position isn't anything new nor it is only the position of the Wahhabis and Deobandis like the author claims.

Brewlis are a disturbed bunch

Very disturbed.

[Optimus Prime]

To say that Ibn Ishaaq's Seerah is more authentic than Saheeh Al Bukhari is the biggest joke. No Muslim with self-respect would say this.

Moreover, in Mizan Al-I'itidal, we find this about Sufyan bin Sa'eed Al-Thawri:

سفيان بن سعيد الثوري الحجة الثبت، متفق عليه، مع أنه كان يدلس عن الضعفاء، ولكن كان له نقد وذوق، ولا عبرة لقول من قال: يدلس ويكتب عن الكذابين.

Rough translation:
Sufyan bin Sa'eed Al-Thawri, the agreed-upon and reliable hujjah. He weak made tadlees from weak narrators, but he was critical and picky (from who he narrated from)and there as there is no given weight to those that say: He makes tadlees from weak narrators.


Al-Thahabi also says in Siyar A'alam Al-Nubala 2/1836 about Sufyan Al-Thawri:

He is Shaikh Al-Islam, the memorizing Imam, the leader of the scholars of his time.

May Allah curse the liars who lead the people astray from the hadith of Rasool Allah salalahu alaihi wa salam because of their desires. If they loved him they would not be ashamed of his hadiths. Wallahi nobody loves him as much as the guardians of his hadith, Ahlul Sunnati wal Jama'a.

Farid,

What about the narration itself? Does it have any basis? Some Barelwi scholars claim it's authentic.

Is ibn Ishaaq's entire research on the seerah baseless?

[Farid]

What about the narration itself? Does it have any basis? Some Barelwi scholars claim it's authentic.

The narration does not even contain a chain akhi.

Is ibn Ishaaq's entire research on the seerah baseless?

His seerah is a valuable resource, but narrations without chains are rejected.

[Optimus Prime]

I've heard he's the EARLIEST and main authority when it comes to the seerah? ibn Ishaaq?

Thanks for clarifying that part up regarding the narration.

[Farid]

The main authority in Seerah would be Musa bin Uqbah who is his contemporary. Ibn Ishaq would be second. Both of their books are lost. However, Ibn Hisham preserved Ibn Ishaq's book without his book.

[Optimus Prime]

The main authority in Seerah would be Musa bin Uqbah who is his contemporary. Ibn Ishaq would be second. Both of their books are lost. However, Ibn Hisham preserved Ibn Ishaq's book without his book.

How has Musa bin Uqbah work been preserved then?

I thought ibn Ishaq was the first one to start writing on the seerah.

[Farid]

They wrote it around the same time. I don't know who was first and I bet that nobody really knows for sure. As I said, they were both contemporaries.

Most of Musa bin Uqbah's book can be found in late sources like Al Bayhaqi's Dala'il Al Nubuwa.

[Khaled]

I'm a little emberassed, I thought I knew more about how the Seerah was compiled...

I've never even heard of Musa bin Uqbah 

[Farid]

^ I am surprised ya Khaled. You seem to know your stuff more than most. =)

See his bio in Tahtheeb Al Tahtheeb.

There was a book printed last year in which the compiler collected a whole volume of his narrations. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

[Khaled]

^ I am surprised ya Khaled. You seem to know your stuff more than most. =)

See his bio in Tahtheeb Al Tahtheeb.

There was a book printed last year in which the compiler collected a whole volume of his narrations. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

Thats how it isn't it?  The more  you learn the more you realize how ignorant you truly are.