Abu Jafar Herz Comments on 400 Usool

[Farid]

It is nice to see that Shias are reading our articles, especially ones that like to put the effort into learning their deen like Abu Jafar Herz.

He made a few of mistakes though in hadith sciences though.

1- He confused Mohammad bin Eisa bin Obaid with Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa, assuming that the former was the harsh Qummi hadithist.

2- He assumes that every hadith by a narrator that has an asl is taken from that asl. This is not only wishful thinking, but simply impossible to prove.

3- He has blind faith in Ibn Abi Umair who has no idea who his teachers were in the first place. See here for more: http://twelvershia.net/2014/08/26/understanding-application-of-the-confusion-of-reliable-narrators/

Herz was correct about the reliability of a narrator named Mohammad bin Al-Muthana. We thank him for pointing this out and we have corrected the article.

Here are his comments:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235033951-the-400-usool-in-shia-hadith-a-refutation-to-twelvershia/

Do read, ask questions, and share thoughts.

[Hani]

I find some of his points childish, like the one about the number of narrations. In fact the 400 Usoul could mainly all be small books of 1 or 2 or 8 narrations each. Aside from this, yes Shia do have a gigantic number of reports in their books mainly due to the movement of mass-fabrication they continue to live until this very day. Also who decides what is an "Asl"? Are they claiming only 400 documents were written at the time?


More importantly, it sounds like the guy is an Akhbaari, he's implying that all narrations are authentic, which includes a lot of extremist narrations, a lot of self-contradicting statements as well as Tahreef reports.

[Husayn]

Faridemort

[Sheikh]

^ SubhanAllah.  They are so afraid of one Sunni that posts articles online.  It shows how weak their imaan is if one man can cause so much fitnah among them.

[Hadrami]

I notice with shias, they seems to be afraid with what they may find in their classical beliefs/history books. Its like they expect to find something which will shake their belief.

[Abubakar]

Did you all noticed that comment made by a member Called "Jaabir" on that thread ?

[quote /]
Your intention is
good brother, but in my
opinion, I'd rather not post
any refutations to that
garbage website on SC and
give them that kind of
publicity. They only gain
followers by doing this.
Otherwise, there's lots of
terrible articles to refute
from there.
[/quote]

[MuslimK]

Ali_Hussain:

When people say that the 400 Usul are authentic, do they mean that every narration found in the is/was authentic?

Abu-Jafar Herz

Generally, yes. There are various reasons why the 400 usool were accepted, some of the books were shown to the Imams and they approved them. For example the book of Sulaym Ibn Qays was shown to Imam jafar as-saadiq [as] where he then in an authentic hadith cried and affirmed a long narration in it (the narration where Ali [as] explains the types of hadith narrators and the number of Imams) and did not reject the book nor claim it was fabricated. The book's tareeq was also shown to the Imam and he none the less accepted the material that is narrated, the book at that time was also widespread and famous and the book of sulaym we have today is actually from the copy that Shaykh At-Tusi had.

Oh, really? So called infallible guides were themselves unable to write any book but supposedly approved books written by others.

[Farid]

Jaabir and those that are concerned have two choices really.

1- Respond to our "garbage" since "
2- Wait until TSN becomes more popular and more people are affected by our message.

[Hani]

Herz also posted a refutation of our Ibn Saba' book, it is a video:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235033968-refutation-to-abdullah-ibn-saba-the-book-twelvershianet/

I'm watching it, already at minute 6.

So far, no refutation and no real arguments, he just said that Shia scholars are split between those who think the man is fiction (He failed to mention this is a modern un-academic opinion) and those who establish his existence.

Then he said that the Imams (`Ali bin Husayn) cursed him and the Shia scholars (Tusi) also disowned him.

Later he mentions a quote from Nawbakhti's book that the true Shia are those who were loyal to `Ali and close to `Ali and followers of `Ali during the Prophet's (saw) time such as Miqdad, Salman etc...

Firstly, this isn't accurate as `Ali had no Shia in the Prophet's (saw) time, everyone at that time was united behind the Prophet (saw). Secondly, This is the linguistic interpretation of the word Shia, even Ahlul-Sunnah say that Hasan, `Ammar, Muhammad bin Abu Bakr and others were the earliest Shia, yet this is political affiliation, not that they had a special Madhab setting them apart from the rest of the nation.

We say there was a political Shia, and then emerged a corrupt Madhabi Shia (Saba'iyyah). The Madhabi Shia affected the ignorant ones from the political Shia of Koufah, ideas and beliefs merged.

9 minutes and so far no refutation, nobody claimed Ibn Saba' was the creator of Twelver Shia. We say him and his sect affected the development of what was later (after two centuries) known as Twelver Shia.

Then he says that the text quoted by the majority of major historians and experts is not acceptable since it has no chain. In our book, (Which Herz claims to refute) the main purpose is to show that there are narrations and statements by early Muslims establishing the existence, the Ghuluw, the corrupt twelver-like beliefs of the early Saba'iyyah. Not only does our book prove the man exists without a doubt according to both Sunnah and Shiites, but we also proved some of his deviant beliefs and we proved that he had followers who lasted many years after his death and held his beliefs.

Then a quotation by Ibn Taymiyyah which I do not see at all what the issue with is. Completely irrelevant. And another by Ibn al-Qayyim which shows how just and fair our scholars are.

And the lecture finishes.

I ask Herz, BY ALLAH DID YOU READ OUR BOOK!? The video you provided is weak material and isn't a refutation at all, in fact I'm almost sure you never read our book and if you did then you didn't understand a word of it.

(PS. thanks for the advertisement, keep at it)

[Ibn Yahya]

From my experience Akhbaris tend to be the most vile of the Shi'ah. Mainly because they cling to their Ahadith more. Really says a lot about Twelver Shi'ism in general

[Farid]

Herz responded to me. He really is an interesting fellow. Here is what I wrote:

1- He confused Mohammad bin Eisa bin Obaid with Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa, assuming that the former was the harsh Qummi hadithist.

He responded by saying:

Actually I didn't, I posted his full name here right at the beginning:

He also said:

I never once mentioned Muhammad Ibn Eisa Ibn Obaid.

I have no idea what is causing the confusion. Herz, I have included a screenshot for you below akhi. Please admit you are simply wrong.



Inshallah we can move on if we can get past this simple step. If you still insist that you are correct, then please provide evidence of Mohammad bin Eisa exiling people out of Qum. Thank you.

I wonder if Nader is reading this. =)

[Hani]

Issue with these Mu`tazili type Shia has always been the same, back when Farid asked "Wasil/Walid" to debate on the reliability of Ibrahim bin Hashim vs abu Hurayrah, the first thing the man told us was "Let's debate Asma' wal-Sifat" The attributes and names of Allah.
http://islamic-forum.net/index.php?showforum=106

Now we find that Herz is asking for the same matter, instead of continuing on with the Usool discussion, suddenly he proposes a debate on Asma'-wal-Sifat.

What Shia like them do not understand is that this discussion is NOT a Sunni vs Shia topic, rather it is a topic that was discussed and debated for centuries among all sects and each sect had different groups each at the other's throat because of this matter.

Among the early Muslims were those who believed that even discussing this matter was outrageous and insulting to Allah and they never went and debated or discussed these issues, they said Allah knows best. Others said that we affirm what Allah affirms for himself in a matter that suites his majesty without asking any questions. Others went into Tashbeeh and Tajseem (like Hisham bin al-Hakam, al-Jawaliqi and Yunus bin `Abdul-Rahman) and they attributed physical body parts to Allah. Others went and affirmed certain matters while giving proper Ta'weel to whatever they deemed necessary linguistically. Others went into complete Ta`teel and rejected everything and explained the whole list in a different way.

These ideas above are held by the Muslims around the world, that seems to be the case, even Hanbali scholars themselves are not united as a whole behind one of the ideas. So refer back to the books where these matters were already debated (until boredom) in the books of all Muslims`Aqa'id and Maqalat and see the different arguments used.


Here's also a related piece on this may Allah save us:

http://www.dorar.net/enc/aqadia/1391

[Farid]

Herz responds!!

I actually posted his name as Ahmad ibn muhammad ibn Isa at the beginning of the post, I simply shortened it to muhammad ibn Isa as I already clarified who I was talking about.

I love this. He says that he changed the name of the narrator because he felt like shortening it. This guy has too much pride to ever admit that he is wrong.

It should be self-explanatory that one cannot shorten a name in such a manner and there was no Shia scholar alive that would shorten this name in this manner.

Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa Al Ash'ari CAN be shortened as:

Ahmad ibn Mohammad
Ahmad bin Eisa (attribution to grandfather since his father has a common name)
Ahmad Al Ash'ari
And other similar variations.

It is FALSE to refer to him as Mohammad bin Eisa since that is someone else. We would be referring to his father or the infamous Mohammad bin Eisa bin Ubaid Al Yaqteeni.

Of course, to further add insult to injury, it becomes blantantly obvious that Herz has no idea what he is talking about since Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa never narrated from Al Narsi / Al Zarrad, as opposed to his claims, since Ahmad was too young to have narrated from them since he was barely a student of Ibn Abi Umair.

@ Hani: I don't mind debating him on that topic. Though, the venue this time will be TSN, and he will need to provide two endorsements from the mods, since I do not want to waste time debating someone who is regarded as a jahil that is only representing himself.

And yes, if he wins, maybe I can finally become an Ash'ari again. =]

[Farid]

This keeps getting better.

Herz responded with:



In other words, he is not simply stating that Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa Al-Ash'ari narrating directly from a narrator makes him reliable, but he goes even further to argue that every narrator in the chain from those teachers is reliable according to Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa.

In other words, a hadith with a chain like: Mohammad bin Yahya --> Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa --> X --> Y --> Z --> Imam, is always an authentic chain, since Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Eisa is so strict that he would not narrate anything from anyone in the chain unless he was reliable.

The challenge: Provide an example of one Shia hadith scholar that has arrived at this same conclusion.

Isn't it fascinating how some people come up with new hadith rules in order to save face?

Furthermore, it is not I that issued a debate challenge so that Herz to say things like, "This person wants to debate me on kalam yet he can't even read : / "

I'm surprised he wants to debate someone that "can't even read". If I'm so ignorant, then maybe he should find someone with some intellect to debate with instead of calling me out by saying: "Lastly, will you accept my offer for a discussion/debate on the attributes of Allah and why you think he has fingers, hands, and sit on a throne?"

Sorry Herz. Get two endorsements from mods if you want to debate.

[Rationalist]

He even denies that narration about Hisham ibn Hakam believing God has a body exists in his books.

Also, regarding the two hishaams tajseem is not something that is accepted nor is it something that any Shia believes nor narrated in their books.

This is narrated in Al Kafi and Shaykh's Saduq's book on Tawheed.

Also many Shia ulema have shown that their tajseem was professed shortly after becoming Shia (leaving what was then proto-sunnism, jabarriya, jahmiya,etc) and later on they rejected these beliefs.

Which Allama of the Rafida? The ones that came after Shaykh Saduq?

[Hani]

You deal with them the same way you deal with these

{Rather, both His hands are extended}

{What prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands}

{While the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand.}

{I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you}

{They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded.}

{He will call them and say, "Where are My 'partners' which you used to claim?"}

{And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.}

The books of Ta'weel are loaded with interpretations and explanations, there's a lot of books on these subjects but it's not my field.

[Hani]

Herz says:

((We then see Hani unfortunately trying to claim Allah has hands, a right hand, is in the "up" position by quoting the Qur'an.))

And you were just criticizing comprehension problems? Seems you have a few of those yourself.

How/Where did I claim what you said above? By just quoting the verse as it is?

I never even interpreted the verses or concluded anything from them, you yourself reached this conclusion by looking at the apparent text. All I said was, the same way you deal with verses that imply what you dislike, you can also deal with reports that imply what you dislike.

That's what most scholars who are of your opinion do, in fact when it comes to Hadith it becomes that much easier due to the fact that narrations are usually never word-for-word representations and are prone to weaknesses and problems in transmission etc...

Now when you encounter narrations in al-Kafi that imply this, such as the following from 2/200:

عَنْهُ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ عَنْ صَفْوَانَ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَبِي حَمْزَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) مَنْ أَطْعَمَ ثَلَاثَةَ نَفَرٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ أَطْعَمَهُ اللَّهُ مِنْ ثَلَاثِ جِنَانٍ فِي مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاوَاتِ الْفِرْدَوْسِ وَ جَنَّةِ عَدْنٍ وَ طُوبَى [وَ] شَجَرَةٍ تَخْرُجُ مِنْ جَنَّةِ عَدْنٍ غَرَسَهَا رَبُّنَا بِيَدِهِ

[From him again, from Ahmad from Safwan bin Yahya, from abi Hamzah, from abi Ja`far (as), he said: The messenger (saw) said: Whoever feeds three from the Muslims (as charity), Allah will feed him from three gardens from the kingdom of heaven, al-Firdaws, `Adan and Toubah is a tree in `Adan which our Lord has planted with his hand.]

also with these chains:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ سَعْدَانَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْقَهَّارِ عَنْ جَابِرٍ الْجُعْفِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ
عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ فَضَالَةَ بْنِ أَيُّوبَ عَنْ أَبِي الْمَغْرَاءِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبَانِ بْنِ تَغْلِبَ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ

[Muhammad bin Yahya, from Muhammad bin al-Husayn, from Musa bin Sa`dan, from `Abdullah bin al-Qasim, from `Abdul-Qahhar, from Jabir al-Ju`fi, from abu Ja`far (as)...]

[Some of our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from al-Husayn bin Sa`id, from Fadalah bin Ayyub, from abi al-Maghra', from Muhammad bin Muslim, from Abban bin Taghlib: I heard aba `Abdillah (as) say...]

Or 3/256:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ فَضَالَةَ بْنِ أَيُّوبَ عَنْ أَبِي الْمَغْرَاءِ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي يَعْقُوبُ الْأَحْمَرُ قَالَ دَخَلْنَا عَلَى أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) نُعَزِّيهِ بِإِسْمَاعِيلَ فَتَرَحَّمَ عَلَيْهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ نَعَى إِلَى نَبِيِّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) نَفْسَهُ إلى أن قال: ثُمَّ يَأْخُذُ الْأَرْضَ بِيَمِينِهِ وَ السَّمَاوَاتِ بِيَمِينِهِ وَ يَقُولُ أَيْنَ الَّذِينَ كَانُوا يَدْعُونَ مَعِي شَرِيكاً أَيْنَ الَّذِينَ كَانُوا يَجْعَلُونَ مَعِي إِلَهاً آخَرَ

[Muhammad bin Yahya, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from al-Husayn bin Sa`id, from Fadalah bin Ayyub, from abi al-Maghra', he said: Ya`qoub al-Ahmar told me: We entered upon abi `Abdillah (as) to console him about the passing of his son Isma`il (...until the Imam said about Allah...) Then He (i.e Allah) grabs the earth with His right hand and the heavens with His right hand and says: "Where are those who associated partners with Me? Those who took beside another god?"]

Or 1/126 of al-kafi:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى قَالَ كَتَبْتُ إِلَى أَبِي الْحَسَنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ ( عليه السلام ) جَعَلَنِيَ اللَّهُ فِدَاكَ يَا سَيِّدِي قَدْ رُوِيَ لَنَا أَنَّ اللَّهَ فِي مَوْضِعٍ دُونَ مَوْضِعٍ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَى وَ أَنَّهُ يَنْزِلُ كُلَّ لَيْلَةٍ فِي النِّصْفِ الْأَخِيرِ مِنَ اللَّيْلِ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا وَ رُوِيَ أَنَّهُ يَنْزِلُ عَشِيَّةَ عَرَفَةَ ثُمَّ يَرْجِعُ إِلَى مَوْضِعِهِ فَقَالَ بَعْضُ مَوَالِيكَ فِي ذَلِكَ إِذَا كَانَ فِي مَوْضِعٍ دُونَ مَوْضِعٍ فَقَدْ يُلَاقِيهِ الْهَوَاءُ وَ يَتَكَنَّفُ عَلَيْهِ وَ الْهَوَاءُ جِسْمٌ رَقِيقٌ يَتَكَنَّفُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ بِقَدْرِهِ فَكَيْفَ يَتَكَنَّفُ عَلَيْهِ جَلَّ ثَنَاؤُهُ عَلَى هَذَا الْمِثَالِ فَوَقَّعَ ( عليه السلام ) عِلْمُ ذَلِكَ عِنْدَهُ وَ هُوَ الْمُقَدِّرُ لَهُ بِمَا هُوَ أَحْسَنُ تَقْدِيراً وَ اعْلَمْ أَنَّهُ إِذَا كَانَ فِي السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا فَهُوَ كَمَا هُوَ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ وَ الْأَشْيَاءُ كُلُّهَا لَهُ سَوَاءٌ عِلْماً وَ قُدْرَةً وَ مُلْكاً وَ إِحَاطَةً .
وَعَنْهُ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ الْكُوفِيِّ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى مِثْلَهُ

[`Ali bin Muhammad, from Sahl bin Ziyad, from Muhammad bin `Isa, he said: I wrote to abi al-Hasan `Ali bin Muhammad (as): May Allah take my soul in your service, O my master, it is narrated to us that Allah is in one place and not in another place on the Throne resting. He comes down to the sky above the earth every night during the last half of the night. It is narrated that He comes down at the ninth evening of the month of Dhul-Hijjah and then He returns back to His place. Certain individuals among your servants have said that if He would be found in certain places and not in other places the air must have come in contact with Him and would surround Him because air is a thin form of body that surrounds everything proportionate to its size. How then the air would surround Allah, the Most Holy and the Most High, According to this assumption? The Imam (as) replied in writing: "He has the knowledge of this. He is the best One in determining all things. You must, However, note that His being in the sky over the earth is just as He on the Throne. All things to Him are the same in the matters of His knowledge and power, domination and control."
Also narrated from him, from Muhammad bin Ja`far al-Koufi, from Muhammad bin `Isa like it.]

Al-Narsi in his Asl on pg 54:

زيد عن عبد الله بن سنان قال سمعت أبا عبد الله ع يقول إن الله ينزل في يوم عرفة في أول الزوال إلى الأرض على جمل أفرق يصال بفخذيه أهل عرفات يمينا وشمالا ولا يزال كذلك حتى إذا كان عند المغرب ونفر الناس وكل الله ملكين بجبال المازمين يناديان عند المضيق الذي رأيت يا رب سلم سلم والرب يصعد إلى السماء ويقول جل جلاله امين امين يا رب العالمين فلذلك لا تكاد ترى صريعا ولا كسيرا

[Zayd from `Abdullah bin Sinan, he said: I heard aba `Abdillah (as) saying: On the day of `Arafah, Allah descends at the time of noon on top of a camel with split hair which divides the people of `Arafat as it dashes between them left and right. (...until he says...) And the Lord may he be glorified ascends to the sky saying...]

Or al-Kafi 4/28:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ مِهْرَانَ عَنْ سَيْفِ بْنِ عَمِيرَةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ أَجِيزُوا لِأَهْلِ الْمَعْرُوفِ عَثَرَاتِهِمْ وَ اغْفِرُوهَا لَهُمْ فَإِنَّ كَفَّ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى عَلَيْهِمْ هَكَذَا وَ أَوْمَأَ بِيَدِهِ كَأَنَّهُ يُظِلُّ بِهَا شَيْئاً

[Some of our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Khalid, from Isma`il bin Mihran, from Sayf bin `Umayrah, from abi `Abdillah (as), he said: Forgive the people of goodness their mistakes and shortcomings for Allah's palm is on them like such" And he gestured with his hand as if shading something.]

Or 2/7:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ أَنَّ رَجُلًا سَأَلَ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) عَنْ قَوْلِ اللَّهِ جَلَّ وَ عَزَّ وَ إِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَ أَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلى أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَ لَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ قالُوا بَلى إِلَى آخِرِ الْآيَةِ فَقَالَ وَ أَبُوهُ يَسْمَعُ ( عليه السلام ) حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ قَبَضَ قَبْضَةً مِنْ تُرَابِ التُّرْبَةِ الَّتِي خَلَقَ مِنْهَا آدَمَ ( عليه السلام ) فَصَبَّ عَلَيْهَا الْمَاءَ الْعَذْبَ الْفُرَاتَ ثُمَّ تَرَكَهَا أَرْبَعِينَ صَبَاحاً ثُمَّ صَبَّ عَلَيْهَا الْمَاءَ الْمَالِحَ الْأُجَاجَ فَتَرَكَهَا أَرْبَعِينَ صَبَاحاً فَلَمَّا اخْتَمَرَتِ الطِّينَةُ أَخَذَهَا فَعَرَكَهَا عَرْكاً شَدِيداً فَخَرَجُوا كَالذَّرِّ مِنْ يَمِينِهِ وَ شِمَالِهِ

[`Ali bin Ibrahim, from his father, from ibn abi `Umayr, from Ibn Udhaynah, from Zurarah, that a man asked aba Ja`far (as) about the verse And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified."} He (as) said in front of his father: My father told me that Allah took a fist full of dust from which He crated Adam (as), then poured pure water (etc...) then He rubbed it thoroughly until they emerged like atoms from His right and left]

Or 2/172:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ فَضَالَةَ بْنِ أَيُّوبَ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ أَبَانٍ عَنْ عِيسَى بْنِ أَبِي مَنْصُورٍ قَالَ كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) أَنَا وَ ابْنُ أَبِي يَعْفُورٍ وَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ طَلْحَةَ فَقَالَ ابْتِدَاءً مِنْهُ يَا ابْنَ أَبِي يَعْفُورٍ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) سِتُّ خِصَالٍ مَنْ كُنَّ فِيهِ كَانَ بَيْنَ يَدَيِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ عَنْ يَمِينِ اللَّهِ فَقَالَ ابْنُ أَبِي يَعْفُورٍ وَ مَا لَهُمْ لَا يَرَوْنَ وَ هُمْ عَنْ يَمِينِ اللَّهِ فَقَالَ يَا ابْنَ أَبِي يَعْفُورٍ إِنَّهُمْ مَحْجُوبُونَ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ أَ مَا بَلَغَكَ الْحَدِيثُ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) كَانَ يَقُولُ إِنَّ لِلَّهِ خَلْقاً عَنْ يَمِينِ الْعَرْشِ بَيْنَ يَدَيِ اللَّهِ وَ عَنْ يَمِينِ اللَّهِ وُجُوهُهُمْ أَبْيَضُ مِنَ الثَّلْجِ وَ أَضْوَأُ مِنَ الشَّمْسِ الضَّاحِيَةِ يَسْأَلُ السَّائِلُ مَا هَؤُلَاءِ فَيُقَالُ هَؤُلَاءِ الَّذِينَ تَحَابُّوا فِي جَلَالِ اللَّهِ

[Some of our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Khalid, from his father, from Fadalah bin Ayyub, from `Umar bin Abban, from `Isa bin abi Mansour, he said: I was with abu `Abdillah (as) along with ibn abi Ya`four and `Abdullah bin Talhah. He (as) initiated ibn abi Ya`four by saying: Six traits, if one were possess them then he'd be in front of Allah most glorious and on the right of Allah." Ibn abi Ya`four said: "How can they not be seen if they're on His right?" He (as) replied: "They are concealed by Allah's light. Have you not heard the Hadith of the messenger (saw) where he says: Allah has creatures to the right of his throne in front of Allah and on the right side of Allah, their faces are white like snow etc...]

Or 2/126:

عنه عن محمد بن علي عن عمر بن جبلة الأحمسي عن أبي الجارود عن أبي جعفر ع قال : قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) : المتحابون في الله يوم القيامة على أرض زبرجدة خضراء في ظل عرشه عن يمينه - وكلتا يديه يمين - وجوههم أشد بياضا وأضوء من الشمس الطالعة يغبطهم بمنزلتهم كل ملك مقرب وكل نبي مرسل يقول الناس : من هؤلاء ؟ فيقال : هؤلاء المتحابون في الله

[From him, from Muhammad bin `Ali, from `Umar bin Jabalah al-Ahmasi, from abi al-Jaroud, from abi Ja`far (as): The messenger (saw) said: On the day of judgement, those who love each-other for the sake of Allah will stand on a floor of green aquamarine in the shade of His throne, to His right -and both His Hands are right- their faces lighter and more radiant than the sun...]

Same is in Qurb al-Isnad by al-Himyari:

حدثني السندي بن محمد عن صفوان بن مهران الجمال عن أبي عبد الله ع قال : " قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : عن يمين الله - وكلتا يديه يمين - عن يمين العرش قوم على وجوههم نور لباسهم من نور على كراسي من نور فقال له علي : يا رسول الله من هؤلاء ؟ فقال له : شيعتنا وأنت إمامهم "

[I was told by al-Sindi bin Muhammad, from Safwan bin Mihran al-Jammal, from abi `Abdillah (as): The messenger (saw) said: On Allah's right -and both his hands are right- and on the right of the throne will be people, dressed in light...]

The first Majlisi in al-Rawdah 13/25:

روى المصنف في الصحيح و علي بن إبراهيم في الحسن كالصحيح، عن جابر عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: قال أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام إن الله تبارك و تعالى (لما أحب) أن يخلق خلقا بيده إلى أن قال فاغترف ربنا عز و جل غرفة بيمينه من الماء العذب الفرات و كلتا يديه يمين فصلصلها في كفه فجمدت

[The author narrated in the Sahih and `Ali bin Ibrahim in al-Hasan kal-Sahih, from Jabir, from abi Ja`far (as), he said: The chief of believers (as) said: When Allah most high liked to create a creation with his hand (...etc...) so our Lord scooped up with his right hand some pure water from Euphrates and both of his hands are right, He left it to dry in His hand until it became solid]

Also in al-Mahaasin 1/280:

أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي عن النضر بن سويد، عن يحيى بن عمران الحلبي، عن معلى أبي عثمان، عن علي بن حنظلة، عن أبي عبد الله (ع) قال: اختصم رجلان بالمدينة، قدري ورجل من أهل مكة فجعلا أبا عبد الله (ع) بينهما إلى أن قال: كتاب كتبه الله بيمينه، وكلتا يديه يمين، فيه أسماء أهل الجنة بأسمائهم وأسماء آبائهم وعشائرهم، مجمل عليهم لا يزيد فيهم رجلا ولا ينقص منهم أحدا أبدا، وكتاب كتبه الله، فيه أسماء أهل النار

[Al-Barqi, from al-Nadir bin Suwayd, from Yahya bin `Imran al-Halabi, from Mu`alla bin abi `Uthman, from `Ali bin Handhalah, from abi `Abdillah (as): Two men disputed in Madinah, a Qadari and a man from Makkah so they made aba `Abdillah (as) the judge. (...until he said...) A book that Allah has written with His right and both His hands are right, containing the names of the dwellers of heaven (etc...)]

Also in Tahdheeb al-Ahkaam 3/3 #3, Majlisi graded "Sahih" in Malaadh-ul-Akhiyar 4/636:

وعنه عن محمد بن يحيى عن عبد الله بن محمد عن علي بن الحكم عن أبان عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: إن للجمعة حقا وحرمة فإياك أن تضيع أو تقصر في شئ من عبادة الله تعالى، والتقرب إليه بالعمل الصالح، وترك المحارم كلها، فان الله يضاعف فيه الحسنات، ويمحو فيه السيئات، ويرفع فيه الدرجات قال: وذكر أن يومه مثل ليلته، قال: فان استطعت أن تحييه بالصلاة والدعاء فافعل فان ربك ينزل من أول ليلة الجمعة إلى سماء الدنيا فيضاعف فيه الحسنات ويمحو فيه السيئات فان الله واسع كريم.

[From him, from Muhammad bin Yahya, from `Abdullah bin Muhammad, from `Ali bin al-Hakam, from Abban, from abi `Abdillah (as), he said: Friday has its sanctity and right, do not waste a thing from Allah's worship (etc...) If you are able to spend (that day) in prayer and supplication then do so because your Lord descends from the beginning of Friday evening to the worldly sky to increase the rewards (etc...)]

Two narrations from Kitab-ul-Tawheed by Saduq pg.154-155:

3-
 حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رحمه الله قال حدثنا محمد بن ‏الحسن الصفار عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن أحمد بن محمد بن أبي نصر عن الحسين ‏بن موسى عن عبيد بن زرارة عن أبي عبد الله ع قال سألته عن قول الله عز و ‏جل يَوْمَ يُكْشَفُ عَنْ ساقٍ قال كشف إزاره عن ساقه و يده الأخرى على رأسه فقال ‏سبحان ربي الأعلى‏

[I was told by Muhammad bin al-Hasan bin Ahmad bin al-Walid (rah), we were told by Muhammad bin al-Hasan al-Saffar, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin abi Nasr, from al-Husayn bin Musa, from `Ubayd bin Zurarah, from abi `Abdillah (as): I asked him about Allah's words {Upon the day when the leg shall be bared, and they shall be summoned to bow themselves} He (as) lifted his lower garment and exposed his leg while his hand was on his head, then he said: "Praise be to the Lord most high."]

2-
 أبي رحمه الله قال حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله عن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن ابن ‏فضال عن أبي جميلة عن محمد بن علي الحلبي عن أبي عبد الله ع في قوله عز و جل ‏يَوْمَ يُكْشَفُ عَنْ ساقٍ قال تبارك الجبار ثم أشار إلى ساقه فكشف عنها الإزار قال ‏و يدعون إلى السجود فلا يستطيعون قال أفحم القوم و دخلتهم الهيبة و شخصت ‏الأبصار و بلغت القلوب الحناجر خاشعة أبصارهم ترهقهم ذلة و قد كانوا ‏يدعون إلى السجود و هم سالمون ‏

[My father (rah) told me, Sa`d bin`Abdullah told us, from Ibrahim bin Hashim, from Ibn Faddal, from abi Jamilah, from Muhammad bin `Ali al-Halabi, from abi `Abdillah (as) about His words {Upon the day when the leg shall be bared} He (as) said: "May The Almighty be glorified." then he (as) pointed to his leg and lifted the lower garment exposing it (etc...)]

Al-`Allamah al-Majlisi in `Ayn-ul-Hayah 1/368:

وروي بسند معتبر عن أبي جعفر الباقر انّه قال : إذا كان الرجل على يمينك على رأي ثم تحوّل إلى يسارك فلا تقل الاّ خيراً ، ولا تبرأ منه حتى تسمع منه ما سمعت وهو على يمينك ، فإنّ القلوب بين أصبعين من أصابع الله يقلّبها كيف يشاء ساعة كذا وساعة كذا ، وانّ العبد ربما وفّق للخير

[It was narrated with a reliable chain from abi Ja`far al-Baqir (as) that he said: "If a person to your right had an opinion then he turned to your left, do not say except what is good and do not disown him until you hear from him what you heard when he's on the right; for the hearts are between two fingers from the fingers of Allah, He flips them as He wishes, once like this and once like that, the slave may be successful in attaining goodness."]

[Hani]

@Herz who is currently trying to refute this.

I am not telling you to take any of this literally, you can give your Ta'weel to anything and that is legitimate and a Madhab among Ahlul-Sunnah.

Also that narration from the Asl of al-Narsi, I posted one like it from al-Kafi 1/126, so review.

@Herz

The companion of the Imam in the above hadith is asking the Imam [as] about the famous hadith that he heard that refers to Allah leaving his throne and coming down at midnight, the Imam [as] then rejects this and explains that this is impossible for Allah as he is not a body. You confused the questioner with the Imam [as] and thought that the Imam himself was saying that Allah comes down, read it again more slowly.

No he didn't reject it at all. He accepted the narrations but rejected what his Mawaali said regarding them. His reply to the narrations was:

عِلْمُ ذَلِكَ عِنْدَهُ وَ هُوَ الْمُقَدِّرُ لَهُ بِمَا هُوَ أَحْسَنُ تَقْدِيراً وَ اعْلَمْ أَنَّهُ إِذَا كَانَ فِي السَّمَاءِ الدُّنْيَا فَهُوَ كَمَا هُوَ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ

[The knowledge of this (i.e. how this takes place) is with Him, He is the one who decreed this in the best manner; And know that if He is in the worldly sky then He is (also) as He is on the throne etc...]

What your Imam did, is that he accepted it literally and said that Allah knows how it happens and it happens in a way that is decreed by Allah and that it doesn't mean that Allah is not on the throne if He descended to the worldly sky (since He is not bound by physical laws).

If he rejected it, he would have simply said: "They lied on Allah! May He curse them." such as he did in that weak narration where he denies the seven Ahruf reports.

Here's the English translation from the English Kafi, maybe it's better than my translation:

I wrote to Imam abu al-Hassan, Ali ibn Muhammad (a.s.) to clarify a question. May Allah
take my soul in your service, O my master, it is narrated to us that Allah is in one place and
not in another place on ‘Arsh, (the Throne) resting. He comes down to the sky above the earth
every night during the last half of the night. It is narrated that He comes down at the ninth
evening of the month of Dhul Hajj and then He returns back to His place. Certain individuals
among your friends have said that if He would be found in certain places and not in other
places the air must have come in contact with Him and would surround Him because air is a
thin form of body that surrounds everything proportionate to its size. How then the air would
surround Allah, the Most Holy and the Most High, According to this assumption? The Imam (as)
replied in writing: "He has the knowledge of this. He is the best One in having the true
measurements of all things. You must, However, note that His being in the sky over the earth
is just as He on the Throne. All things to Him are the same in the matters of His knowledge
and power, domination and control.

@Herz,

Bayn yaday doesn't mean between his hands, it means in front of him.

Did you just attribute direction to Allah?

[Farid]

Hani. Herz, in his first post, included a link to the names of 124 of the Usool.

I wonder if he is aware that these include so-called Usool that were written in the fourth century.

Maybe this deserves an article.

[Hani]

@Herz, I disagree with your interpretation of his words, he clearly accepted the texts and his reply to the above was clear that Allah knows best how it takes place. As for the narration above it, it contradicts it.

Not only does it contradict it, it's also weak, the chapter contains four reports, two are weak, one is unknown, and the last one is authentic with two chains. So only the one I posted is authentic.

If you go back to this print by al-Kafi in Arabic:

الأصول من الكافي تأليف ثقة الاسلام أبي جعفر محمد بن يعقوب بن إسحاق الكليني الرازي رحمه الله المتوفى سنة 328 / 329 ه‍ مع تعليقات نافعة مأخوذة من عدة شروح صححه وعلق عليه علي أكبر الغفاري نهض بمشروعه الشيخ محمد الآخوندي الناشر دار الكتب الاسلامية مرتضى آخوندي تهران - بازار سلطاني الجزء الأول الطبعة الثالثة

You will read the footnote by `Ali Akbar Ghifari saying:

قوله (ع): علم ذلك عنده أي علم كيفية نزوله عنده سبحانه وليس عليكم معرفة ذلك

Which is exactly what I said.

Next if you go to Sharh Usoul-ul-Kafi by al-Mazindarani,

شرح أصول الكافي للمازندراني المعروف كتاب الكافي في الأصول والروضة لثقة الإسلام أبى جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الكليني مع شرح الكافي الجامع للمولى محمد صالح المازندراني المتوفى 1081 ه‍ مع تعاليق الميرزا أبو الحسن الشعراني الجزء الثاني ضبط و تصحيح السيد علي عاشور دار احياء التراث العربي بيروت

He says:

فوقع (عليه السلام)) من غير تكذيب المروي بل مع الإشعار بتصديقه (علم ذلك عنده) أي علم ذلك الذكور من الآية والرواية عنده تعالى لأنه من المتشابهات التي لا يستقل بتأويلها عقول البشر ولا يعلمها إلا الراسخون في العلم بتوفيق إلهي (وهو المقدر له بما هو أحسن تقديرا) والمفسر له بما هو أتقن تفسيرا والمعبر عنه بما هو أفضل تعبيرا بالوحي إلى الأنبياء والالهام للأوصياء

Which is exactly what I said.

And the researcher of al-Mazindarani's book, al-Mirza abu al-Hasan al-Sha`rani comments by affirming what I said:

قوله: «علم ذلك عنده» ظاهره تصديق المنقول وأنه تعالى ينزل وأن الهواء يتكنف أي يحيط به لكن لا يعلم كيفية إحاطته به ومقدار ما يشغل الفضاء إلا هو وهو يقدر ذلك أحسن تقدير، وتأويل الشارح لا يخلو عن تكلف ، ويصعب حمل العبارة عليه وإن كان أقرب من الرد.

In the book al-Hashiyah `ala Usoul al-Kafi, Ibn Haydar al-Na'ini also says in his commentary:

الحاشية على أصول الكافي / رفيع الدين محمد بن حيدر النائيني؛ تحقيق محمد حسين الدرايتى. - قم: دار الحديث

قوله: (علم ذلك عنده) أي علم كيفية نزوله بعدما لم يكن عنده سبحانه، وليس عليكم معرفة ذلك، ثم أشار إشارة خفية إلى أن المراد بنزوله تقديره نزول رحمته وإنزالها بتقديره بقوله: (وهو المقدر له بما هو أحسن تقديرا) ثم أفاد أن ما عليكم علمه أنه لا يجري عليه أحكام الأجسام والمتحيزات

Which is exactly what I said.

It's your word against mine, al-Ghifari, al-Mazindarani, al-Sha`rani and al-Na'ini.

The interpretation you gave to his clear words,

((The Imam is saying that Allah coming down to the sky would be illogical since his knowledge of what is happening is the same whether he is on the throne or not.))

I did not see anywhere, if you think it makes sense, please send it to your scholars and inform them of their misunderstanding.

At the end of the post you wrote:

Now moving on, can you please tell me if god's hands are both right hands?

Please refer to my post above to see narrations from your books about both of God's hands being on the right.

PS. I found another Sahih narration in Tahdheeb al-Ahkam on the Nuzool of Friday, check my post above.