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Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words

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Hani

Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« on: November 30, 2015, 11:56:13 PM »
This topic was opened because as you all know al-Nahj is a chainless book, the authors took their material from various other sources, it's clear they weren't very honest since several of `Ali's words in praising the Sahabah were not included in this book, however it seems that some praise for the Sahabah was later removed by al-Radi and his brother.


Take  this sermon 62 for instance:



يلقى في روعي ، و لا يخطر ببالي ، أنّ العرب تزعج هذا الأمر من بعده صلى اللَّه عليه و آله و سلم عن أهل بيته و لا أنّهم نحّوه عنّي [ 1 ] من بعده فما راعني إلاّ انثيال النّاس على فلان [ 2 ] يبايعونه ،
فأمسكت بيدي حتّى رأيت راجعة النّاس قد رجعت عن الإسلام ، يدعون إلى محق دين محمّد ، صلى اللَّه عليه و آله و سلم [ 3 ] ، فخشيت إن لم أنصر الإسلام و أهله أن أرى فيه ثلما أو هدما تكون المصيبة به عليّ أعظم من فوت ولايتكم [ 1 ] الّتي إنّما هي متاع أيّام قلائل يزول منها ما كان كما يزول السّراب ، أو كما يتقشّع السّحاب [ 2 ] ، فنهضت في تلك الأحداث حتّى زاح الباطل و زهق ،
و اطمأنّ الدّين و تنهنه




It is found in an earlier source called al-Gharat by al-Thaqafi 1/306 who is an early Shia author, he writes:


فأمسكت يدي ورأيت أني أحق بمقام رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله في الناس ممن تولى الأمر من بعده فلبثت بذاك ما شاء الله حتى رأيت راجعة من الناس 2 رجعت عن الإسلام يدعون إلى محق دين الله وملة محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وإبراهيم عليه السلام فخشيت إن لم أنصر الإسلام وأهله أن أرى فيه ثلما وهدما يكون مصيبته 3 أعظم علي من فوات ولاية أموركم 4 التي إنما هي متاع أيام قلائل ثم يزول ما كان منها كما يزول السراب وكما يتقشع 5 السحاب، فمشيت عند ذلك إلى أبي بكر فبايعته ونهضت في تلك الأحداث حتى زاغ 6 الباطل وزهق وكانت " كلمة الله هي العليا ولو كره الكافرون 1.
فتولى أبو بكر تلك الأمور فيسر وشدد 2 وقارب واقتصد، فصحبته منا صحا وأطعته فيها أطاع الله [فيه] جاهدا، وما طمعت أن لو حدث به حدث 3 وأنا حي أن يرد إلى الأمر الذي نازعته فيه طمع مستيقن ولا يئست منه يأس من لا يرجوه، ولولا خاصمة ما كان بينه وبين عمر لظننت أنه 4 لا يدفعها عني، فلما احتضر بعث إلى عمر فولاه فسمعنا وأطعنا وناصحنا وتولى عمر الأمر وكان مرضي السيرة 5 ميمون النقيبة

Red parts are praise for the first two which was not included in al-Nahj.


Or look at sermon 227 where the Rafidi replaces the word `Umar with "Fulan" so that no one may know who is being praised:



لله بلادُ فُلاَن، فَلَقَدْ قَوَّمَ الاْوَدَ، وَدَاوَى الْعَمَدَ، وَأَقَامَ السُّنَّةَ، وَخَلَّفَ الْفِتْنَةَ! ذَهَبَ نَقِيَّ الثَّوْبِ، قَلِيلَ الْعَيْبِ، أَصَابَ خَيْرَهَا، وَسَبَقَ شَرَّهَا، أَدَّى إِلَى اللهِ طَاعَتَهُ، وَاتَّقَاهُ بِحَقِّهِ، رَحَلَ وَتَرَكَهُمْ فِي طُرُق مَتَشَعِّبَة، لاَ يَهْتَدِي بِهَا الضَّالُّ، وَلاَ يَسْتَيْقِنُ الْمُهْتَدِي.


While in the earlier sources, such as Tareekh ibn Shubbah, `Alee openly says it's `Umar:


حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبَّادِ بْنِ عَبَّادٍ، قال: حَدَّثَنَا غَسَّانُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْحَمِيدِ، قَالَ: بَلَغَنَا أَنَّ عَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ مَالِكِ بْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ الأَزْدِيَّ حَلِيفَ بَنِي الْمُطَّلِبِ، قَالَ: لَمَّا انْصَرَفْنَا مَعَ عَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ مِنْ جِنَازَةِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ دَخَلَ فَاغْتَسَلَ، ثُمَّ خَرَجَ إِلَيْنَا فَصَمَتَ سَاعَةً، ثُمَّ قَالَ: " لِلَّهِ بَلاءُ نَادِبَةِ عُمَرَ لَقَدْ صَدَقَتِ ابْنَةُ أَبِي حَثْمَةَ حِينَ، قَالَتْ: وَاعُمَرَاهُ، أَقَامَ الأَوَدَ وَأَبْدَأَ الْعَهْدَ، وَاعُمَرَاهُ، ذَهَبَ نَقِيَّ الثَّوْبِ، قَلِيلَ الْعَيْبِ، وَاعُمَرَاهُ أَقَامَ السُّنَّةَ وَخَلَّفَ الْفِتْنَةَ "، ثُمَّ قَالَ: " وَاللَّهِ مَا دَرَتْ هَذَا وَلَكِنَّهَا قُوِّلَتْهُ وَصَدَقَتْ، وَاللَّهِ لَقَدْ أَصَابَ عُمَرُ خَيْرَهَا وَخَلَّفَ شَرَّهَا، وَلَقَدْ نَظَرَ لَهُ صَاحِبُهُ فَسَارَ عَلَى الطَّرِيقَةِ مَا اسْتَقَامَتْ، وَرَحَلَ الرَّكْبُ، وَتَرَكَهُمْ فِي طُرُقٍ مُتَشَعِّبَةٍ لا يَدْرِي الضَّالُّ وَلا يَسْتَيْقِنُ الْمُهْتَدِي


Or Tareekh al-Tabari:


حدثني عمر قال حدثنا علي قال حدثنا ابن دأب وسعيد بن خالد عن صالح بن كيسان عن المغيرة بن شعبة قال لما مات عمر رضي الله عنه بكته ابنة أبي حثمة فقالت واعمراه أقام الأود وأبرأ العمد أمات الفتن وأحيا السنن خرج نقي الثوب بريئا من العيب قال وقال المغيرة بن شعبة لما دفن عمر أتيت عليا وأنا أحب أن أسمع منه في عمر شيئا فخرج ينفض رأسه ولحيته وقد اغتسل وهو ملتحف بثوب لا يشك أن الأمر يصير إليه فقال يرحم الله ابن الخطاب لقد صدقت ابنة أبي حثمة لقد ذهب بخيرها ونجا من شرها أما والله ما قالت ولكن قولت

Even Ibn abi al-Hadeed said he saw the word `Umar under "Fulan" in al-Radi's own handwriting, it's as if he and his brother al-Murtada were not in agreement over disclosing who the man was.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2015, 03:56:16 AM »
سبحان الله! Is this your own research or are you getting this from somewhere else?  بارك الله فيك
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Hani

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2015, 04:22:03 AM »
Salam,

The second one was popular, just that I thought of researching it to find out if Ibn abi al-Hadeed's claim was true.

First one is a random coincidence, I stumbled upon it while working on something else.

This does kind of motivate one to research the entire Nahj and see how accurate are the authors in quoting.

I also do wish to read the entire thing and see if there's evidence of Imamah inside it, so far theres a lot of counter-evidence for Imamah therein, now I know why Muhammad `Abduh commented on it, the book can easily be considered a Sunni one.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2015, 04:31:37 AM »

I also do wish to read the entire thing and see if there's evidence of Imamah inside it, so far theres a lot of counter-evidence for Imamah therein, now I know why Muhammad `Abduh commented on it, the book can easily be considered a Sunni one.

That's an interesting POV considering when I was in Jordan I saw that book being sold in a lot of bookstores and not as a "deviant" book.  It may very well be a collection of statement of Ali much like there are books like that which take a bunch of ahadeeth and turn it in one long sermon of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.  For example, you'll see a book which quotes a hadeeth, which appears to be a few pages long, but when you look into it you just see it's just a collection of a bunch of ahadeeth; like if an-Nawawi رحمه الله took his 40 Hadith and turned into one long sermon.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 03:34:46 PM »
I always thought only al radi compiled the work & not co authored with his brother al murtada?

Rationalist

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2015, 03:39:51 AM »
There is also a letter where Razi added that Ali told Muawiyah that the sahaba would flee from battles.

From amongst the Quraysh, the condition of those who had embraced Islam, was not as bad as ours. Either they had defensive alliance with the non-believers or some tribes decided to defend them despite their differences in religion. While it was the practice of the Holy Prophet (s) that whenever a battle was raged and his companions behaved cowardly or ran away from the battlefield (as in Badr, Uhud and Hunayn) which was usually the case or started making the Muslims nervous (as in Khandaq), he sent members of his family (Bani Hashim) to fight out the battle to protect his companions. These members of Bani Hashim often fought single handed and some even met martyrdom as for instance, Ubayda bin Haarith was killed in the Battle of Badr, Hamza bin Abdul Muttalib in Uhud and Ja'far bin Abu Taalib in the Battle of Mu'tah. Besides these three, there was another person (here Imam Ali (a) meant himself) who also tried his best to meet martyrdom. I could name him but the date of his death had not yet approached and he passed through these terrible ordeals alive. (Najh al Balagha, Letter 9)


The added part by Sharif Razi does not even make sense. He added that the companions ran away which made the Muslims nervous? So companions were not Muslims?

Now compare this to the Sunni Version.

As for those from the Quraysh who embraced Islam afterwards, they were relieved from the trials that we went through. Because from among them were protected tribes and individuals that had protection from their clans so that no one [from the pagan Quraysh] would do to them what they did to us. They were in asylum and were saved from being killed. This was as Allah willed. Then He ordered His Messenger to emigrate and later allowed him to fight against the polytheists. Whenever matters got tough and the battles began, he sent the people of his family to the forefront in order to protect the Companions from the heat of the battle. Thus, Ubayda [bin Harith bin al-Muttalib] was sacrificed at Badr, Hamza at Uhud, and Ja'far and Zayd at Mu'ta. The one whose name I would mention [i.e. Ali himself], more than once, sought martyrdom for the sake of Allah similar to these, yet there time was expedited and his [mine] was prolonged. Allah now grants them provision and rewards them for that which they have done. Consequently, I have not heard of or seen anyone from the people who was more sincere to Allah through obedience to His Messenger or more submissive to the Messenger in obedience to his Lord, more steadfast during hardships and times of distress than those who I have just named! Although, there were good people amongst the Muhajirun as well, may Allah reward them. (al-Baladhuri and the Wa'qat Siffin by al-Minqari.)

Hani

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2015, 05:08:30 AM »
Mr. Rationalist, i'll look into that right now.


First of all this narration is fabricated, whether the one in Nahj-ul-Balaghah or the one in Baladhuri, simply because its contents are unheard of, we never read in the books of Seerah anywhere that the Prophet (saw) threw his household into battle to defend his companions!? His entire household were like five or something, unless you're counting women and children, moreover it's known that his companions were very brave as is mentioned in other locations in Nahj al-Balaghah and the names of those of them that were martyred are too MANY to count.

`Ali also narrated that when battles became tough he'd go seek safety near the Prophet (saw).


Secondly, the sin here is that of the translator, he lied, the part below in red isn't even found in the Arabic text of Nahj al-Balaghah.


Dude, this sermon you quoted from Nahj al-Balaghah:


[From amongst the Quraysh, the condition of those who had embraced Islam, was not as bad as ours. Either they had defensive alliance with the non-believers or some tribes decided to defend them despite their differences in religion. While it was the practice of the Holy Prophet (s) that whenever a battle was raged and his companions behaved cowardly or ran away from the battlefield (as in Badr, Uhud and Hunayn) which was usually the case or started making the Muslims nervous (as in Khandaq), he sent members of his family (Bani Hashim) to fight out the battle to protect his companions. These members of Bani Hashim often fought single handed and some even met martyrdom as for instance, Ubayda bin Haarith was killed in the Battle of Badr, Hamza bin Abdul Muttalib in Uhud and Ja'far bin Abu Taalib in the Battle of Mu'tah. Besides these three, there was another person (here Imam Ali (a) meant himself) who also tried his best to meet martyrdom. I could name him but the date of his death had not yet approached and he passed through these terrible ordeals alive. (Najh al Balagha, Letter 9)





فَعَزَمَ اللهُ لَنَا عَلَى الدَّبِّ عَنْ حَوْزَتِهِ، وَالرَّمْيِ مِنْ وَرَاءِ حُرْمَتِهِ. مُؤْمِنُنَا يَبْغِي بِذلِكَ الاْجْرَ، وَكَافِرُنَا يُحَامِي عَنِ الاْصْلِ، وَمَنْ أَسْلَمَ مِنْ قُرَيش خِلْوٌ مِمَّا نَحْنُ فِيهِ بِحِلْف يَمْنَعُهُ، أَوْ عَشِيرَة تَقُومُ دُونَهُ، فَهُوَ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ بِمَكَانِ أَمْن. وَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللهِ(صلى الله عليه وآله) إذَا احْمَرَّ الْبَأْسُ، وَأَحْجَمَ النَّاسُ، قَدَّمَ أَهْلَ بَيْتِهِ فَوَقَى بِهِمْ أَصَحَابَهُ حَرَّ السُّيُوفِ وَالاْسِنَّةِ، فَقُتِلَ عُبَيْدَةُ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ يَوْمَ بَدْر، وَقُتِلَ حَمْزَةُ يَوْمَ أُحُد، وَقُتِلَ جعفر يَوْمَ مُؤْتَةَ، وَأَرَادَ مَنْ لَوْ شِئْتُ ذَكَرْتُ اسْمَهُ مِثْلَ الَّذِي أَرَادُوا مِنَ الشَّهَادَةِ، وَلكِنَّ آجَالَهُمْ عُجِّلَتْ،مَنِيَّتَهُ أُجِّلَتْ.


See? It's not there.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 06:33:03 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2015, 05:12:34 AM »
Why would the translator lie? Is he stupid?

Here is the same translator on the site.
http://www.nahjulbalagha.org/Nahjul-Balagha-Letters/nahjul-balagha-letter-9.html

Husayn

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2015, 05:13:44 AM »
وَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللهِ(صلى الله عليه وآله) إذَا احْمَرَّ الْبَأْسُ، وَأَحْجَمَ النَّاسُ، قَدَّمَ أَهْلَ بَيْتِهِ فَوَقَى بِهِمْ أَصَحَابَهُ حَرَّ السُّيُوفِ وَالاْسِنَّةِ، فَقُتِلَ عُبَيْدَةُ بْنُ الْحَارِثِ يَوْمَ بَدْر، وَقُتِلَ حَمْزَةُ يَوْمَ أُحُد، وَقُتِلَ جعفر يَوْمَ مُؤْتَةَ،

Wait, so here 'Ali is saying that Hamza and Ja'far are the Rasul (saws)'s Ahlul Bayt?

Lol!
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Husayn

Re: Al-Radi & al-Murtada distorting `Ali's words
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2015, 05:17:03 AM »
And yeah the whole translation of this letter is so friggin botched. Damn liars.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

 

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